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Glorion

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1 minute ago, Glorion said:

Page 16, "robbing, raping and murdering." The entire population gets wiped out.

Delete the word "raping" - if we ever reissue this, that is one of the several small edits we would make to the story. 

And also, that is not a description of what is going on - it is what Tashali fears is going on.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is always the taking of slaves and making them obey to your whims. Frat-boy perps' excuses void the risk of becoming a broo.

Gloranthan moralty is different from that of the users of this forum (or at least I hope it is... Violence is always an option?). But that goes for ancient world ethics anyway.

This is important. Sure, people might agree that the gods are opposed to rape, but that’s with two caveats.

One, that they get to define what “rape” is - in any slave society, taking your liberties with the female slaves obviously isn’t rape, perish the thought! It’s unlikely that any a Gloranthan society has a concept of rape within the marriage. If there’s droit de signeur somewhere in the West, then it’s not rape by the standards of the law and culture, no matter what the woman thinks of it. And so on.

Second, that the society gets to define who counts as a person they’re even interested in protecting from it in the first place - obviously family and clan, probably other people like you, but old enemies just after a battle?

The idea that Praxians in Pavis, drunk on blood and alcohol in a multi-day pillaging, wouldn’t have violated the locals on a serious scale strikes me as... unlikely (although it’s probably worse yet in the Grantlands). They have a culture of machismo, violence and ideas of cultural superiority over other people, but they’re going to be well-behaved towards conquered and captive women?!

Edited by Akhôrahil
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18 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is important. Sure, people might agree that the gods are opposed to rape, but that’s with two caveats.

One, that they get to define what “rape” is - in any slave society, taking your liberties with the female slaves obviously isn’t rape, perish the thought! It’s unlikely that any a Gloranthan society has a concept of rape within the marriage. If there’s droit de signeur somewhere in the West, then it’s not rape by the standards of the law and culture, no matter what the woman thinks of it. And so on.

Second, that the society gets to define who counts as a person they’re even interested in protecting from it in the first place - obviously family and clan, probably other people like you, but old enemies just after a battle?

The idea that Praxians in Pavis, drunk on blood and alcohol in a multi-day pillaging, wouldn’t have violated the locals on a serious scale strikes me as... unlikely (although it’s probably worse yet in the Grantlands). They have a culture of machismo, violence and ideas of cultural superiority over other people, but they’re going to be well-behaved towards conquered and captive women?!

It is not that they are "well-behaved" - I am sure they kill the locals. But they fear Eiritha and Storm Bull too much to engage in rape. 

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4 hours ago, Glorion said:

 "A Tale to Tell" is about Muriah the witch queen and her band of broos. You are thinking of "Black Rock Village," where an unpunished rape and the death of the victim leads to the birth of a succubus, not the conversion of anyone, including the rapist, into broos. She masters the community and bends it to her will, but that can be broken by the PC's in normal fashions, not through magically purging the community of chaos.

Spoilers please, seems a little over the top to give away the plot secrets.

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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There are quite a few factors affecting what goes on in New Pavis after was taken. The city was founded in 1550 and Dorasar was very smart in including Praxians on the city council. At the time the Most Respected Elder was of the Bison tribe. Spending most of her time at the Paps she took little personal interest in the city and delegated the position to one of her Khans (the "Pavis" khan). This position basically allowed the Bison to control the meat supply to the city, excluding the other tribes. This abuse came to a head in 1572 with the Pavis revolt. Fed up with the situation, a revolt against the bison was planned and other Praxian tribes were to be invited in.

Quote

The nomad irritation with the civilized rules of Pavis exploded in 1572 when those within the city revolted and tried to open the gate to allies outside. The plot was poorly planned and defenders moved to prevent the attack before it began. There was savage bloodshed as the nomads were defeated.

This lost the city council space (and other rights) and prompted the departure of the most respected elder (aged only 79) to the Great Herd. Next in the cycle would be a morokanth and Egajia became the most respected elder.

Technically there is a space on the council for the tribes. Argrath knows this and it's part of the plan, he's going to reveal himself as Dorasar's rightful heir so isn't going to destroy the city (harrek is not here, phew)  The Praxians are allowed revenge against the Lunars, but against New Pavisites they are told to control themselves. This of course is hard to control and there are civilian casualties and properties are burnt and looted, mostly Lunar sympathisers. Prominent targets are the Lunar temples, the governor's office and barracks. Pavis himself appears at the main temple and greets Argrath, so that is untouched. I'd have those major locations destroyed and the people inside murdered. The rest of the city suffers collateral damage - fire spreads, things are trampled, people injured - maybe 10% of the population are affected, 1% of the non-lunar population die. It would be straight forward to get a map of the city knock out the North Wall, damaging the area around it and mark the three other damaged areas.

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I would also assume that some locals take the opportunity to sort out grievances with ”collaborators”. It’s not like it’s a city without factions, and this kind of payback always happens.

And the Praxians get to loot everyone, don’t they? So that would that almost everyone gets at least materially affected (and there’s going to be plenty of cracked heads as part of the looting as well, probably even torture to make people reveal where they hid their stuff).

Sacks are nasty. The Sacco di Roma halved the population of the city, and even if - as is reasonable - the sack of Pavis is less extreme, I would easily expect 10+% deaths.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

It is not that they are "well-behaved" - I am sure they kill the locals. But they fear Eiritha and Storm Bull too much to engage in rape. 

Individually, I'm sure, but with human behavior there's a threshold of numbers and excitement beyond which common sense and restraint are exceeded.  It's how riots and revolts and atrocities are born.  The agents of reprisal can't be everywhere at once, keeping a tight, heavy lid on mass deviancy -- even the divine agents.  Perhaps the "official account" is that divine influence kept atrocity at bay, but I suspect that, in reality, there's a backlog of reprisal that may span decades once the action dies down.

Now there's an adventure hook for you.

!i!

Edited by Ian Absentia
Revolts, not revolutions
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6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe the mass raping described at the City of Wonders was not the thousands you'd expect on Earth, but dozens of incidences? High and shocking by Glorantha standards.

We've added to my Vingan's history.  She was there at CoW, young and a little naive, liberating some pretty baubles, then realized to her horror that the Pirates were doing very bad things.  She managed to protect / hide a mother and child, then smuggled them to safety in North Esrolia.  And has added Hate Harrek.  

whew aim high gurl

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2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe the mass raping described at the City of Wonders was not the thousands you'd expect on Earth, but dozens of incidences? High and shocking by Glorantha standards.

This notion of a sanitised Glorantha is getting on my nerves.  This conversation about divine imminence actively or tacitly suppressing base human nature isn't unlike a thread some months back asserting the notion that fires in Gloranthan cities like tinder-dry Pavis are less prevalent because of pacts with local spirits.  Not only does it feel unlikely, it feels lazy and boringBy no means am I promoting misery tourism through roleplaying, but I'm simply not on board with the notion that rampant mobs acted only kind of like monsters because they feared imminent reprisal.  Unless we're asserting active divine preordainment in Glorantha, the wild chimp will act exactly like a wild chimp when you let it out of its cage.  Real history is full of pious, god-fearing people who commit atrocity in times of upheaval and duress.  People with at least as much certainty of the imminence of their diet(y/ies) as the people of Glorantha, but who do it anyway, and who may or may not feel the consequences of their actions afterward.

Rape is an ugly word, associated with an even uglier act.  But it does a disservice to the setting of Glorantha and the people of the real world to squeamishly wave it off and say, yeah, but we're not like that here.  We're entertaining jihad and ethnic cleansing in Prax, but hand-waving sexual atrocity?

Don't even get me started on sanitised broos and their "stingers".

!i!

Edited by Ian Absentia
Emphasis seemed necessary
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3 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

This notion of a sanitised Glorantha is getting on my nerves.

Maybe we don't want to deal with rape in the made-up fantasy world, Ian. Maybe women deal with constant stress and terror every day. Maybe I can't take out the trash after 430 pm because the sun has gone down because it's winter so I have to ask my male roommate to do it because it's too dangerous. Maybe I will never walk alone at night in my entire life. Maybe I can't ever put down my drink in a public bar at any time. Maybe my sister has been drugged because she did that and someone slipped a roofie in it even though she was sitting right there and he tried to get her out the door as "his drunk girlfriend". Maybe every woman I know has been raped or sexually assaulted or has narrowly escaped this situation, including myself. Maybe I can't go to my car alone at night because it isn't safe. Maybe you don't understand how absolutely constant this is, how much it pervades every situation, so that when I moved into my new apartment with the male friend I've known for years the female roommate I'd just met told me when she was leaving to see her boyfriend what time she'd be home and her contact info even though I barely knew her name.

Maybe we don't want rape in the fantasy world, Ian, because it's omnipresent for women.

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Just now, Ian Absentia said:

With all due respect, I do understand.

!i!

then maybe changing "broo, the most common foe, rape everything they can" to "broo, the most common foe, implant everything they can with gross larvae" might seem like a reasonable change

also, everyone assumes that rape is natural. first of all, Gloranthans aren't chimps. (But then again, neither are humans: we share a common ancestor with them and bonobos.) Second of all, there are human cultures where brutal rapes are literally unheard of.

So I'm not sure why we're making a big deal out of insisting our sieges have brutal rapes in them. Are we suggesting it's "realistic"? Crops don't grow in most of Prax because a large serpent god got hacked into pieces there :-/ I'm not sure why this specific detail is the one that suspends disbelief for you, but it is entirely possible to assume people maim, enslave and kill without raping. It's just kind of a weird assumption for me that rape is automatic in Glorantha, especially when it's specifically associated with Chaos behavior. Are we to assume the Praxians also eat the humans? If not, why?

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10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Delete the word "raping" - if we ever reissue this, that is one of the several small edits we would make to the story. 

And also, that is not a description of what is going on - it is what Tashali fears is going on.

OK fine. You'll need to make another deletion in the RQ book. p. 407: Where our friend Gunda, recognizing Vasana et.al. as former battle companions, agrees to ransom them, "likely preventing us from becoming sport for the other Wolf Pirates." That is a standard euphemism for rape, and that is how most readers will read it as written.

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2 minutes ago, Glorion said:

OK fine. You'll need to make another deletion in the RQ book. p. 407: Where our friend Gunda, recognizing Vasana et.al. as former battle companions, agrees to ransom them, "likely preventing us from becoming sport for the other Wolf Pirates." That is a standard euphemism for rape, and that is how most readers will read it as written.

YOU might interpret that as a euphemism for rape but in that case, I wrote the text, and by sport I meant cruelty and possible torture, but not rape. 

This isn't a sanitized thing - Greg and I both agree that in our fantasy world with a sky dome, flat earth, and manifest gods that rape is rare. The existence of goddesses like Babeester Gor and Gorgorma are there to emphasise the point.

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I want to make it perfectly clear that I am *happy* that rape is eliminated from Glorantha except for chaotics, for the reasons Qizilbashwoman stated. As we all know, fantasy gaming is much too male dominated. I'm very concerned about consistency and accuracy, but other considerations are more important. It would be nice I suppose if torture and mass murder could be eliminated too, but that would definitely not be Gloranthan. Those are practices that people of all possible genders have engaged in, so there is nothing specifically anti-female about having them in one's fantasy setting.

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3 minutes ago, Glorion said:

I want to make it perfectly clear that I am *happy* that rape is eliminated from Glorantha except for chaotics, for the reasons Qizilbashwoman stated. As we all know, fantasy gaming is much too male dominated. I'm very concerned about consistency and accuracy, but other considerations are more important. It would be nice I suppose if torture and mass murder could be eliminated too, but that would definitely not be Gloranthan. Those are practices that people of all possible genders have engaged in, so there is nothing specifically anti-female about having them in one's fantasy setting.

My Gloranthan gaming group is about half women and half men, and includes my wife and one of her best friends. The broo are presented like parasitic wasps or xenomorphs. Torture and mass murder exist in Glorantha, but rape is a usually chaotic thing - at least anyone who fears the goddesses of Earth and Darkness is very reluctant to engage in it - or fears their husband-protectors.

But Greg wanted that in Glorantha from early on. It was his fantasy - one with murder, torture, love, friendship, but not a lot of rape. 

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3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As a man, currently roleplaying a female Vingan, I agree with both Ian and Qizilbashwoman.  The "rape is rare in war" does seem sanitized.  But I don't want to deal with it that much, either emotionally , nor practically.   @Jeff  good call by you and Greg.

Does my Vingan (and all the others, seems like there are a skillion) need to go on a holy quest to track down thousands of Pirates and punish them, finishing up with Harrek?  Might make a good Joe Abercrombie book, but takes her out of any real campaign.  Hmm, the end of her (very very fantasy) "saga" would have to change

 

Harrek's a killer not a rapist. He's a violent storm, a deadly squall, the worst gale you kind imagine. He can kill indiscriminately - like Nature. Thousands hate him but he's more a primal force than a sadist or predator.

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Forced intercourse happens in Glorantha, and is not treated as "turn into broos" rape. The Vadrudi host took "wives" from the sea, and those ancestresses of the Piscoi merfolk were anything but volunteers. "Forced consent" is as ugly a phrase (and deed) as is rape. (The ancestresses of the Cetoi may actually have gone for a voluntary marriage of protection against the rest of the host.) And that is ignoring cultural differences like the Transatlantic one whether hugs and kisses are first or third base.

Rape is rare in Glorantha, and there are no sexually transmitted diseases (other than broo larvae and a general risk of infection upon contact with infected folk). The existence of Thed and the avenging goddesses shows that rare is a far cry from absent.

The interaction between Satyrs and nymphs or other humanoid females is borderline, as are the Trickster seductions using magic. (The entire subject of using seduction as a power tool is sensitive, or insensitive.)

Nice and edificing stories like the saga of Wayland the Smith have stuff like "forced consent". You don't need swan maidens without this theme. Or fox women without the inversion of this theme.

 

Glorantha has these stories, too. Like Greya's Story.

The Pentans appear to have a greater immunity to broo-ification, or a vastly different concept of rape.

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

There are quite a few factors affecting what goes on in New Pavis after was taken. The city was founded in 1550 and Dorasar was very smart in including Praxians on the city council. At the time the Most Respected Elder was of the Bison tribe. Spending most of her time at the Paps she took little personal interest in the city and delegated the position to one of her Khans (the "Pavis" khan). This position basically allowed the Bison to control the meat supply to the city, excluding the other tribes. This abuse came to a head in 1572 with the Pavis revolt. Fed up with the situation, a revolt against the bison was planned and other Praxian tribes were to be invited in.

This lost the city council space (and other rights) and prompted the departure of the most respected elder (aged only 79) to the Great Herd. Next in the cycle would be a morokanth and Egajia became the most respected elder.

Technically there is a space on the council for the tribes. Argrath knows this and it's part of the plan, he's going to reveal himself as Dorasar's rightful heir so isn't going to destroy the city (harrek is not here, phew)  The Praxians are allowed revenge against the Lunars, but against New Pavisites they are told to control themselves. This of course is hard to control and there are civilian casualties and properties are burnt and looted, mostly Lunar sympathisers. Prominent targets are the Lunar temples, the governor's office and barracks. Pavis himself appears at the main temple and greets Argrath, so that is untouched. I'd have those major locations destroyed and the people inside murdered. The rest of the city suffers collateral damage - fire spreads, things are trampled, people injured - maybe 10% of the population are affected, 1% of the non-lunar population die. It would be straight forward to get a map of the city knock out the North Wall, damaging the area around it and mark the three other damaged areas.

Thanks David, that gives me some overall guidelines I need to have, given that the party is headed to Pavis and two of the PC's were along for the ride when Lunar rule in Pavis was overthrown. I will make it nastier however, as IMHO, sure Argrath got Jaldon to promise to leave the non-Lunar citizens alone, but in the heat of the moment that was disregarded by the Pavis hating Praxians, with Jaldon looking the other way. The quote I found in KOS from the account of "Argrath in Pavis," the only account of Argrath that rates as what historians call a "primary source," matches that very well. More like 10% of the non-Lunar population dying I would say, and 30% having their possessions looted or destroyed. Fortunately, they all passed out dead drunk after two days and were stuck groggily on their bisonbacks and driven off to fight the Lunars when they woke up. And Harrek's berserkers too, who weren't listening to anybody.

BTW, the reason I raised the rape issue is because in my version, it was horrible enough that the Lunar underground is fairly popular with the remaining citizenry, despite Halcyon's crimes, and not just with any surviving Lunars or ex-Lunars, to say nothing of the slaves. I want it to be a situation where this is natural, and even my Orlanthi PC's will be wondering if they should be sympathising with the Lunar underground for moral reasons. Rape is in fact not necessary for that.

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On 11/17/2019 at 5:16 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Pavisite one: And What have the bloody lunars ever done for us?

Pavisite Two: Well the aqueducts...

Pavisite Three: And the baths, remember what the place used to smell like?

Etc...

Fade to aliens...

Actually, when you really look at the evidence, the Lunars really didn't achieve much in Pavis.  The fact is we don't have baths and aqueducts being built in New Pavis.  The main lasting things the Lunars bring to the region are slave plantations and a market for hazia.  Notions of religious tolerance are skin deep at best (consider Orlanth temples filled with sand and all lightbringer temples with new Lunar appointees), and the administration was raucously corrupt and existed mainly to line the pockets of the carpetbaggers of the ilk of Sor-Eel and Halcyon Var Enkorth.   One might argue that Corflu was going to be developed into a major port until the capture of Karse, but really it remains a hole and a backwater.  Then there are the efforts to develop farming on the Zola Fel by Raus et al.  Not a huge success, and unlikely to last after the rise of the White Bulls.   Given the long supply lines, it is respectable that the Lunars were able to hold on to Pavis for 20 years across a desert, and one must suppose that this was largely due to their Sable Tribe allies, who liked controlling the best pastures while the Lunars were in charge.

As to what happened in the aftermath of the Whitebull take-over, as the account provided by Jajagappa suggests, it seems as though there were very few survivors of the Lunar garrison at the end of the fighting.  As to what then happened to the civilian population, well, it is worth remembering that Argrath knew a lot about New Pavis, and who was who, and even after a period of considerable absence, that knowledge would have been important in hunting down Lunars.  As slavery was pretty typical, it is likely that a good many Lunars became slaves on the very plantations that they formerly built and owned.  No doubt a good few Lunars were also ransomed at Pimper's Block too, and the money would fund the coming White Bull war effort.  As New Pavis was all but Argrath's home, it is unlikely that he would have tolerated extensive damage being done to it.  Clearly the Lunars would have to go, but he would want to keep the damage to a minimum, and is likely to have been able to assert that much authority.

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On 11/19/2019 at 6:22 PM, Glorion said:

 "A Tale to Tell" is about Muriah the witch queen and her band of broos. You are thinking of "Black Rock Village," where an unpunished rape and the death of the victim leads to the birth of a succubus, not the conversion of anyone, including the rapist, into broos. She masters the community and bends it to her will, but that can be broken by the PC's in normal fashions, not through magically purging the community of chaos.

Gaumata's Vision by Mike Dawson now I look it up.

My original 

"Granted it's Ogres not Broo but failing to punish a rape results in the extinction of the whole community or its conversion to chaos if the PCs fail."

"After discovery.

Dealing with the villagers.

Sun County law makes the lives of the villagers' and the chaos creatures forfeit for their crimes." (Shadows on the Borderland P.21)

Thus wiping out the whole village.

"Failure

If the characters fail to notice anything unusual...The Mistress [succubus called up by the unavenged rape]  goes right on...raising her monsters [eliminating the villagers more slowly] " (Ibid)

Thus wiping out the whole village.

Either way the village is doomed through not dealing with a rape immediately and justly, so tacitly condoning it.

Given what is involved in "raising her monsters" the Failure paragraph fairly explicitly dooms the entire village to conversion to chaos IF the PCs do not get them executed by the Sun Dome officials (with the faint possibility of mercy for some. Given the description of Ironpike's justice I can't see that happenning.)

Edited by Rob Darvall
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20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Forced intercourse happens in Glorantha, and is not treated as "turn into broos" rape. The Vadrudi host took "wives" from the sea, and those ancestresses of the Piscoi merfolk were anything but volunteers. "Forced consent" is as ugly a phrase (and deed) as is rape.

It is more than a little odd that the universe has a coherent line on what is and isn't rape (and that this line is pretty narrow). Stuff like raptus, marital rape and sexual use of slaves in ways that we most definitely would classify as rape in the modern world surely goes on in Glorantha all the time, without it seemingly "counting" as rape as far as divine retribution is concerned.

The way it seems to work is that rape is chaotic to the extent that it messes with the social structure. Meanwhile, it seems like a large chunk of the storm gods committed raptus, and surely a large part of male slaveholders have used their slaves for sex, without it being chaotic or leading to divine vengeance. This leads me to think that rape in war would at least be seen as less of an issue among some peoples - it's what you do, and it's not a threat to the social structure.

Example: I'm sure downright turn-into-a-broo, divine-retribution-incoming rape is rare among Storm Bulls - they know it's chaotic and not the Done Thing. But harassing and bullying that poor serving maid or servant until she's too scared to say no? That's Tuesday Waterday.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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4 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Gaumata's Vision by Mike Dawson now I look it up.

I hate to keep mentioning this stuff but I feel that some folk might actually be running this game. Spoiler tags are the respectful way to discuss details that players might want to avold.To do a spoilers simply type [Spoileroo] spelled as spoiler and place it in the brackets

in a paragraph above what you wish to hide..

Cheers

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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22 hours ago, Darius West said:

Actually, when you really look at the evidence, the Lunars really didn't achieve much in Pavis.  The fact is we don't have baths and aqueducts being built in New Pavis.  The main lasting things the Lunars bring to the region are slave plantations and a market for hazia.  Notions of religious tolerance are skin deep at best (consider Orlanth temples filled with sand and all lightbringer temples with new Lunar appointees), and the administration was raucously corrupt and existed mainly to line the pockets of the carpetbaggers of the ilk of Sor-Eel and Halcyon Var Enkorth.   One might argue that Corflu was going to be developed into a major port until the capture of Karse, but really it remains a hole and a backwater.  Then there are the efforts to develop farming on the Zola Fel by Raus et al.  Not a huge success, and unlikely to last after the rise of the White Bulls.   Given the long supply lines, it is respectable that the Lunars were able to hold on to Pavis for 20 years across a desert, and one must suppose that this was largely due to their Sable Tribe allies, who liked controlling the best pastures while the Lunars were in charge.

As to what happened in the aftermath of the Whitebull take-over, as the account provided by Jajagappa suggests, it seems as though there were very few survivors of the Lunar garrison at the end of the fighting.  As to what then happened to the civilian population, well, it is worth remembering that Argrath knew a lot about New Pavis, and who was who, and even after a period of considerable absence, that knowledge would have been important in hunting down Lunars.  As slavery was pretty typical, it is likely that a good many Lunars became slaves on the very plantations that they formerly built and owned.  No doubt a good few Lunars were also ransomed at Pimper's Block too, and the money would fund the coming White Bull war effort.  As New Pavis was all but Argrath's home, it is unlikely that he would have tolerated extensive damage being done to it.  Clearly the Lunars would have to go, but he would want to keep the damage to a minimum, and is likely to have been able to assert that much authority.

We have a bath in New Pavis, but it was built by the original Sartarite settlers. They are better masons than the Lunars and actually have a tradition of bathing.

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