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On 11/17/2019 at 5:16 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Pavisite one: And What have the bloody lunars ever done for us?

Pavisite Two: Well the aqueducts...

Pavisite Three: And the baths, remember what the place used to smell like?

Etc...

Fade to aliens...

Actually, when you really look at the evidence, the Lunars really didn't achieve much in Pavis.  The fact is we don't have baths and aqueducts being built in New Pavis.  The main lasting things the Lunars bring to the region are slave plantations and a market for hazia.  Notions of religious tolerance are skin deep at best (consider Orlanth temples filled with sand and all lightbringer temples with new Lunar appointees), and the administration was raucously corrupt and existed mainly to line the pockets of the carpetbaggers of the ilk of Sor-Eel and Halcyon Var Enkorth.   One might argue that Corflu was going to be developed into a major port until the capture of Karse, but really it remains a hole and a backwater.  Then there are the efforts to develop farming on the Zola Fel by Raus et al.  Not a huge success, and unlikely to last after the rise of the White Bulls.   Given the long supply lines, it is respectable that the Lunars were able to hold on to Pavis for 20 years across a desert, and one must suppose that this was largely due to their Sable Tribe allies, who liked controlling the best pastures while the Lunars were in charge.

As to what happened in the aftermath of the Whitebull take-over, as the account provided by Jajagappa suggests, it seems as though there were very few survivors of the Lunar garrison at the end of the fighting.  As to what then happened to the civilian population, well, it is worth remembering that Argrath knew a lot about New Pavis, and who was who, and even after a period of considerable absence, that knowledge would have been important in hunting down Lunars.  As slavery was pretty typical, it is likely that a good many Lunars became slaves on the very plantations that they formerly built and owned.  No doubt a good few Lunars were also ransomed at Pimper's Block too, and the money would fund the coming White Bull war effort.  As New Pavis was all but Argrath's home, it is unlikely that he would have tolerated extensive damage being done to it.  Clearly the Lunars would have to go, but he would want to keep the damage to a minimum, and is likely to have been able to assert that much authority.

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On 11/19/2019 at 6:22 PM, Glorion said:

 "A Tale to Tell" is about Muriah the witch queen and her band of broos. You are thinking of "Black Rock Village," where an unpunished rape and the death of the victim leads to the birth of a succubus, not the conversion of anyone, including the rapist, into broos. She masters the community and bends it to her will, but that can be broken by the PC's in normal fashions, not through magically purging the community of chaos.

Gaumata's Vision by Mike Dawson now I look it up.

My original 

"Granted it's Ogres not Broo but failing to punish a rape results in the extinction of the whole community or its conversion to chaos if the PCs fail."

"After discovery.

Dealing with the villagers.

Sun County law makes the lives of the villagers' and the chaos creatures forfeit for their crimes." (Shadows on the Borderland P.21)

Thus wiping out the whole village.

"Failure

If the characters fail to notice anything unusual...The Mistress [succubus called up by the unavenged rape]  goes right on...raising her monsters [eliminating the villagers more slowly] " (Ibid)

Thus wiping out the whole village.

Either way the village is doomed through not dealing with a rape immediately and justly, so tacitly condoning it.

Given what is involved in "raising her monsters" the Failure paragraph fairly explicitly dooms the entire village to conversion to chaos IF the PCs do not get them executed by the Sun Dome officials (with the faint possibility of mercy for some. Given the description of Ironpike's justice I can't see that happenning.)

Edited by Rob Darvall

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20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Forced intercourse happens in Glorantha, and is not treated as "turn into broos" rape. The Vadrudi host took "wives" from the sea, and those ancestresses of the Piscoi merfolk were anything but volunteers. "Forced consent" is as ugly a phrase (and deed) as is rape.

It is more than a little odd that the universe has a coherent line on what is and isn't rape (and that this line is pretty narrow). Stuff like raptus, marital rape and sexual use of slaves in ways that we most definitely would classify as rape in the modern world surely goes on in Glorantha all the time, without it seemingly "counting" as rape as far as divine retribution is concerned.

The way it seems to work is that rape is chaotic to the extent that it messes with the social structure. Meanwhile, it seems like a large chunk of the storm gods committed raptus, and surely a large part of male slaveholders have used their slaves for sex, without it being chaotic or leading to divine vengeance. This leads me to think that rape in war would at least be seen as less of an issue among some peoples - it's what you do, and it's not a threat to the social structure.

Example: I'm sure downright turn-into-a-broo, divine-retribution-incoming rape is rare among Storm Bulls - they know it's chaotic and not the Done Thing. But harassing and bullying that poor serving maid or servant until she's too scared to say no? That's Tuesday Waterday.

Edited by Akhôrahil

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4 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Gaumata's Vision by Mike Dawson now I look it up.

I hate to keep mentioning this stuff but I feel that some folk might actually be running this game. Spoiler tags are the respectful way to discuss details that players might want to avold.To do a spoilers simply type [Spoileroo] spelled as spoiler and place it in the brackets

in a paragraph above what you wish to hide..

Cheers

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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22 hours ago, Darius West said:

Actually, when you really look at the evidence, the Lunars really didn't achieve much in Pavis.  The fact is we don't have baths and aqueducts being built in New Pavis.  The main lasting things the Lunars bring to the region are slave plantations and a market for hazia.  Notions of religious tolerance are skin deep at best (consider Orlanth temples filled with sand and all lightbringer temples with new Lunar appointees), and the administration was raucously corrupt and existed mainly to line the pockets of the carpetbaggers of the ilk of Sor-Eel and Halcyon Var Enkorth.   One might argue that Corflu was going to be developed into a major port until the capture of Karse, but really it remains a hole and a backwater.  Then there are the efforts to develop farming on the Zola Fel by Raus et al.  Not a huge success, and unlikely to last after the rise of the White Bulls.   Given the long supply lines, it is respectable that the Lunars were able to hold on to Pavis for 20 years across a desert, and one must suppose that this was largely due to their Sable Tribe allies, who liked controlling the best pastures while the Lunars were in charge.

As to what happened in the aftermath of the Whitebull take-over, as the account provided by Jajagappa suggests, it seems as though there were very few survivors of the Lunar garrison at the end of the fighting.  As to what then happened to the civilian population, well, it is worth remembering that Argrath knew a lot about New Pavis, and who was who, and even after a period of considerable absence, that knowledge would have been important in hunting down Lunars.  As slavery was pretty typical, it is likely that a good many Lunars became slaves on the very plantations that they formerly built and owned.  No doubt a good few Lunars were also ransomed at Pimper's Block too, and the money would fund the coming White Bull war effort.  As New Pavis was all but Argrath's home, it is unlikely that he would have tolerated extensive damage being done to it.  Clearly the Lunars would have to go, but he would want to keep the damage to a minimum, and is likely to have been able to assert that much authority.

We have a bath in New Pavis, but it was built by the original Sartarite settlers. They are better masons than the Lunars and actually have a tradition of bathing.

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On 11/20/2019 at 4:40 PM, Akhôrahil said:

It is more than a little odd that the universe has a coherent line on what is and isn't rape (and that this line is pretty narrow). Stuff like raptus, marital rape and sexual use of slaves in ways that we most definitely would classify as rape in the modern world surely goes on in Glorantha all the time, without it seemingly "counting" as rape as far as divine retribution is concerned.

The way it seems to work is that rape is chaotic to the extent that it messes with the social structure. Meanwhile, it seems like a large chunk of the storm gods committed raptus, and surely a large part of male slaveholders have used their slaves for sex, without it being chaotic or leading to divine vengeance. This leads me to think that rape in war would at least be seen as less of an issue among some peoples - it's what you do, and it's not a threat to the social structure.

Example: I'm sure downright turn-into-a-broo, divine-retribution-incoming rape is rare among Storm Bulls - they know it's chaotic and not the Done Thing. But harassing and bullying that poor serving maid or servant until she's too scared to say no? That's Tuesday Waterday.

Absolutely, there is a disturbing tendency  amongst Orlanthi of "Might makes Right"  that is chafe a bit, and that is why Ernalda and Lankhor Mhy is essential to elevate the unruly Storm God  from a petty Warlord to the actually king of the Tribe.

There is a (non-canonical?) story somehwere about Orlanth and Thed going along the lines that he is unable to punish Ragnaglar for raping her as his brother is a mamber of his tribe and Thed is not. But he is willing to allow her a boon to compensate for the crime against her.

There is a lot to read from that story and others have discussed it better than I'm able to.....

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22 minutes ago, Hteph said:

Absolutely, there is a disturbing tendency  amongst Orlanthi of "Might makes Right"  that is chafe a bit, and that is why Ernalda and Lankhor Mhy is essential to elevate the unruly Storm God  from a petty Warlord to the actually king of the Tribe.

Agree - the Storm Gods each need to have something that makes him not just fucking horrible. Humakt learned honour. Orlanth is remarkably mellow for a son of Umath (courtesy of Ernalda, mostly). Storm Bull is bad to have around but is a chaos-killer. And Vadrus and Ragnaglar were just fucking horrible.

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59 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree - the Storm Gods each need to have something that makes him not just fucking horrible. Humakt learned honour. Orlanth is remarkably mellow for a son of Umath (courtesy of Ernalda, mostly). Storm Bull is bad to have around but is a chaos-killer. And Vadrus and Ragnaglar were just fucking horrible.

Orlanth was supposed to be the outreached hand, the open mind.

His Initiation was the Prison of Enemy Gods, and only his ability to befriend these aliens with foreign needs and thoughts enabled them all to escape. That's what makes him Rex.

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On 11/19/2019 at 7:13 PM, Jeff said:

This isn't a sanitized thing - Greg and I both agree that in our fantasy world with a sky dome, flat earth, and manifest gods that rape is rare. The existence of goddesses like Babeester Gor and Gorgorma are there to emphasise the point.

Their very existence means that rape is part of Gloranthan Mythos.

Gorgorma grants a spell, Second Mouth that is explicitly a way to deter, or punish rapists, and gives it to all the Earth tribe Goddesses.

Babeester Gori hunt down rapists and cut off their genitals, hanging them around their necks or off their axes.

Orlanth abducted and raped several goddesses, as did Vadrus.

Ragnaglar is the Mad God, the Rapist, with his attack on Thed being a turning point, as it forced Orlanth to side with his brother rather than giving Thed Justice, which made her join the Unholy Conspiracy.

Gunda the Guilty is the product of the rape of a Valkyrie by a Philosopher.

So, rape is definitely a part of Glorantha.

 

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8 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, rape is definitely a part of Glorantha.

 

Alas... and in honesty if only we were arguing how to get this horrible act out of the real world instead of a fictional one where it belongs behind veils and doors and definitely at the behest of x-cards (or what ever you prefer) at  least and within ours... never. 

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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In my Glorantha:  During the sack of Pavis, there was a reasonably high number of drunk soldiers assaulting the female citizenry to rape them; something like half the number you'd expect, during a RealWorld sack of a city, because many of 'em knew better, even drunk.

Because y'know what?  There was a metric crapton of berzerk Uroxi in town, and every time some asshole tried that shit, a bunch of "Sense Chaos" lit up nearby, and they dropped their other amusements and went off to make their objections known in that special way the Uroxi have...

And Babsy-G ... Yeah, the Axe Maidens know the risks of war and a city-sack, and when Eiritha nudged her sister in warning, I'm sure she sent some extra "deterrents" along.

And Eiritha herself, lotsa rune-priestesses and shamans who were probably planning all along to do a sharp pivot from "take the city" to "prevent atrocities."

Glorantha is not Earth.  A patrol of soldiers drunk on both stolen liquor and heady victory, stumbling into a hide-out full of women?  In the real-world, that sounds like a dire risk of a tragedy.  In Glorantha, they have a reasonable guess that someone might have a spirit running overwatch, and it's on THEIR side while they behave honorably... but if they slip Chaos-ward, there's a real possibility of retribution catching them with their pants down.

So while YES there were attempts, it was much less than one might expect; and many of the attempts were stopped in short order.

YGMV

Edited by g33k
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On 11/22/2019 at 10:13 PM, soltakss said:

So, rape is definitely a part of Glorantha.

 

Yes, but a much more dangerous one (for the perpetrator) than in the RW. As are torture, cannibalism, etc. I have increased the value of the Chaos Rune for players who were in a "D&D murderhobo" mode and that has calmed them down 🙂

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On 11/25/2019 at 11:36 AM, GianniVacca said:

Yes, but a much more dangerous one (for the perpetrator) than in the RW. As are torture, cannibalism, etc. I have increased the value of the Chaos Rune for players who were in a "D&D murderhobo" mode and that has calmed them down 🙂

Rape is I think pretty rare, except among those who don't mind turning into broos. That is definitely *not*  true for cannibalism, a major part of some cultures, notably the Old Tarshites, commonly seen as "good guys" unless you are a Lunar. Torture is quite common also, and there is no reason to expect that Sartarites would shrink back from torturing Lunar prisoners unless a Chalana Arroy is around to object. Human sacrifice is also fairly popular, though not among Sartarites. Primarily due to the fact that Ernaldans have human sacrifice rituals for "Year Kings,"  preferably Orlanthi.

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4 hours ago, Glorion said:

Rape is I think pretty rare, except among those who don't mind turning into broos. That is definitely *not*  true for cannibalism, a major part of some cultures, notably the Old Tarshites, commonly seen as "good guys" unless you are a Lunar. Torture is quite common also, and there is no reason to expect that Sartarites would shrink back from torturing Lunar prisoners unless a Chalana Arroy is around to object. Human sacrifice is also fairly popular, though not among Sartarites. Primarily due to the fact that Ernaldans have human sacrifice rituals for "Year Kings,"  preferably Orlanthi.

Maran Gor evidently has rites for their priestesses' cannibalism - presumably practiced on the bodies of the human sacrifices that are powering Shaker's Temple. Stuff done with the proper rites won't turn people into ogres. It doesn't make groups like the Cannibal Cult any less fearsome.

The Pentans appear to have some gruesome rites - ppssibly the result of their survival struggles in the Greater Darkness - that allows them to do stuff that would turn others into broo in no time short, Check the names "Eats Women" and "Eater of Flesh" in the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm.

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5 hours ago, Glorion said:

 Torture is quite common also, and there is no reason to expect that Sartarites would shrink back from torturing Lunar prisoners unless a Chalana Arroy is around to object.

Orlanth's 6 Virtues are Courage, Wisdom, Generosity, Justice, Honor & Piety.  Some could, arguably, be used to oppose torture.

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Hey follks, I would like to try an X card here. Since they were introduced as a concept I know they are not universally accepted but imagine what ever request you wish for this.. and remember I mean only the best here.

 

After two years about talking about rape, in oh so many ways and in oh so many Fora, the fascination still escapes me. To be honest it makes me sick to my stomach and very bothered to read about it, but there have actually been reasons to bring it up (interesting choice of words). Now for this  lengthy time I have said little unless it broke out into a fight and than I usually pointed people toward the tavern (where else should a fight breakout in an RPG forum?)...

I suppose I will have to see this topic coming back more times then Asborn Fourborn, but I really I must ask people to consider:

1 Taste and age... taste is self explanatory but do we want our children reading this? There are still children here, no?

2 Is it necessary, or has it already been done, said, beaten to death...

I realize that I can and probably will be ignored by many for this but I really REALLY do not want this to instigate a fight argument or even discussion in Pavis, Y’all know where the bar is.

Cheers and all the best

Edited by Bill the barbarian
tidying up punctuation, etc. ...
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1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hey follks, I would like to try an X card here Since they were introduced as a concept I know they are not universally accepted but imagine what ever request you wish for this.. and remember I mean only the best here.

 

After two years about talking about rape in oh so many ways and in oh so many Fora, the fascination still escapes me. To be honest it makes me sick to my stomach and very bothered to read about it but there have actually been reasons to bring it up (interesting choice of words). Now for this  lengthy time I have said little unless it broke out into a fight and than I usually pointed people toward the tavern (where else would a fight breakout in an RPG forum...

I suppose I will have to see this topic coming back more times then Asborn Fourborn but I really must ask people to consider

1 Taste and age... taste is self explanatory but do we want our children reading this? There are still children here, no?

2 Is it necessary, or has it already been done, said, beaten to death....

I realize that I can and probably will be ignored by many for this but I really REALLY do not want this to instigate a fight argument or even discussion in Pavis, Y’all know where the bar is.

Cheers and all the best

I'm with Bill the barbarian. I find the direction that this thread has gone down to be tedious and its persistant revival to be disappointing. If you feel you absolutely must have a soul-crushing thread about torture, etc. then at the very least do it somewhere else than on a thread about Pavis. Future attempts to revive that discussion in this thread will get deleted by the administrators.

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7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:
13 hours ago, Glorion said:

 Torture is quite common also, and there is no reason to expect that Sartarites would shrink back from torturing Lunar prisoners unless a Chalana Arroy is around to object.

Orlanth's 6 Virtues are Courage, Wisdom, Generosity, Justice, Honor & Piety.  Some could, arguably, be used to oppose torture.

Ikadz is the God of Torture and is generally seen as Chaotic.

However, that is when you take it to the extreme. A little bit of torture is fine, isn't it?

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I'm a lot more interested in information about the Pavis supplement.  

Although we do have a ton on Pavis already, every time someone puts something out in the area (like the Sun County material), it is always top notch.   I'm not sure what there is exactly about this area that gets the creative juices going, but clearly people love to write about the setting.  Heck, even Griselda is set in Pavis.   Argrath gets his start in Pavis.  It's like "everybody goes to Rick's" for adventurers.  

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1 hour ago, Dissolv said:

Argrath gets his start in Pavis.  It's like "everybody goes to Rick's" for adventurers.  

Loud Lilina’s or the Temple for this barbarian... Mind you, if the chantey men are playing somewhere...

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8 hours ago, soltakss said:

Ikadz is the God of Torture and is generally seen as Chaotic.

However, that is when you take it to the extreme. A little bit of torture is fine, isn't it?

I would imagine a lot of peoples draw the line at doing it for your own sadistic pleasure. 

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On 12/3/2019 at 9:16 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I would imagine a lot of peoples draw the line at doing it for your own sadistic pleasure. 

So, the stereotypical film SS Colonel is fine then? "I have to say, it gives me no pleasure to do this, but I must".

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3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

So, the stereotypical film SS Colonel is fine then? "I have to say, it gives me no pleasure to do this, but I must".

Yes, as long as you draw the line at that  Canadian classic from the  70’s “Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS” you might t be okay.

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52 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes, as long as you draw the line at that  Canadian classic from the  70’s “Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS” you might t be okay.

Or the dentist scene from the Marathon Man ...

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