Pavis!

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Which cults hold power?

White Bull, Jaldon, Pavis, Orlanth?

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Does the city feel lawless or civlized?

Probably more lawless. Argrath isn't an administrator and doesn't have access to any civil security forces.

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Is Argarath a good or bad ruler?  Is it meet the new boss same as the old boss?

Going by Robin Laws's comments, he seems hands-off. Whether he's a good or bad ruler depends on whether you gain or lose from his regime, I guess.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Jon Hunter]

if hes hands off, who is hands on ?

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Probably more lawless. Argrath isn't an administrator and doesn't have access to any civil security forces.

 

No Pavis Royal Guard? Or the Real PRG the zebra riders, was it? And what of the Trollkin night watch? The folk of Mani’s fort or the real city?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Jon Hunter]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

No Pavis Royal Guard? Or the Real PRG the zebra riders, was it? And what of the Trollkin night watch? The folk of Mani’s fort or the real city?

You've just mentioned 4 independent groups that could be in any state of disrepair, or could become self appointed authority in a power vacuum.

Argarath may have his stuff together, but he may be overseeing a disaster like Libya posy Gidaffi or everything in between.

[Joerg]

The Pavis Royal Guard moves on as an ace unit of the Sartar Free Army.

Zebra Fort is complicated. Bereft of zebras (though not their riders) in the period of the Seventeen Foes of Waha already, the herds get re-vitalized when Dorasar picks up Olgkarth from among the Pol Joni. Then Olgkarth's descendants get driven out of Zebra Fort (and the Rubble) by the Lunars, and replace with Hargran the Dirty, although Cyrilius Hamonius keeps the Pavis Temple in touch with the fort, too.

The attack on New Pavis did not include the Rubble, as far as I can make out. It is possible that Hargran (or Cyrilius) sat out the conquest in Zebra Fort (which had been fortified separately, and would have taken a significant force off the main target for conquest), and then offered his services to the victor.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Pavis Royal Guard moves on as an ace unit of the Sartar Free Army.

A unit does move off, but not the whole tribe. Because of their location, the Windstop, Moonbroth II and the Liberation of Pavis take their toll. By 1625 the Zebra tribe are down to roughly three quarters of their 1621 numbers. Many stay behind to protect tribe and look after the children. Those that venture off with Jaldon and Argrath will bring back riches to bolster their tribe (like the other tribes).

[Bill the barbarian]

So let’s see if i got this, the fake PRG that operated with the lunars, the bandits legged it. The real PRG reforms but a unit leaves. The remainder is still decimated and busy with duties and responsibilities of its own.That still leaves the humans of the Rubble who claim the original rule of Pavis and reside in Mani’s Fort and Real City unspoken for. And we still do not know about the tale of the night watch.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

A unit does move off, but not the whole tribe. Because of their location, the Windstop, Moonbroth II and the Liberation of Pavis take their toll. By 1625 the Zebra tribe are down to roughly three quarters of their 1621 numbers. Many stay behind to protect tribe and look after the children. Those that venture off with Jaldon and Argrath will bring back riches to bolster their tribe (like the other tribes).

Are you commenting on the Pavis Survivors tribe out in the chaparral, or are you addressing the semi-sedenary lords of Zebra Fort here?

I would never have assumed that a military unit carries along all the unique breeding stock of their mounts. While they are likely to have a herd of remounts and some supernumerary breeding studs along to keep them supplied with cavalry zebras, the military unit is a mercenary outfit rather than a tribe.

The Zebra Riders are a weird mix of Pure Horse Folk traditions, inheritances of their time as warrior nobility of Old Pavis, and life as a Praxian tribe raiding herds from the Covenant and trading with the Pol Joni for their brood mares for cavalry zebras. During the Inhuman Occupation they may have made deals with the Marcher Barons for brood mares. Some of that might still be on-going, despite the much greater role the Pol Joni horses play in their breeding.

 

Zebra Fort in Pavis has seen significant updates in its fortifications under Cyrilius Harmonius, and is a choice piece of real estate in the Rubble, with a good-sized population. Apart from the strong zebra rider inheritance shared by many Old Pavisites dating back to the Imperial Age, the inhabitants had almost three generations of Zebra Rider admixture (from a privileged/noble position), increasing zebra rider inheritance and identification even among those families that were sedentary inhabitants of Zebra Fort when Dorasar arrived.

The Lunar invasion sent the Zebra Fort nobility tied to Olgkarth out of the Rubble/into hiding, but not the entirety of the local zebra breeders and their agricultural and horse breeder allies.

At the time of Argrath's conquest, the resident horse breeders may have camouflaged their brood mares (and the occasional horse stallion to maintain those brood mare lines) with stripes to save them from Praxian zealots.

 

We know from the Kraken seminar that key non-Lunar strongholds in the Rubble get new overlords selected by Argrath, with the example of a (female?) Alkothi holding the title (and apparently also the power) of the Real City. I find it unlikely to assume that Zebra Fort would escape such a fate, but there is a distinct possibility that there was a sufficiently influential Zebra Rider among the White Bull host who may have called dibs on that ancestral stronghold.

 

Only Pavis: Gate to Adventure made it clear that Hargran the Dirty was a not random bandit from outside of the Zebra Tribe but a Zebra Tribe bandit who saw his chance to use the Lunars to return to his birthplace as a ruler.

8 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

So let’s see if i got this, the fake PRG that operated with the lunars, the bandits legged it.

No - the name "Pavis Royal Guard" apparently originates with Hargran's claim to be the King of Old Pavis. The previous institution called themselves the "Pavis Survivors", and probably joined the nomadic branch of the Zebra Tribe during their exile, or the Pol Joni that their great-grandfathers hid amongst.

8 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

The real PRG reforms but a unit leaves.

IMO those of the PRG who value survival over previous (Lunar) ties agree to become part of Argrath's core followers. Whether Hargran still leads them is another question, but I am fairly convinced that many of the Lunar-friendly recruits to his Royal Guard now transfer that Royal Guard loyalty to the new King of Pavis. The non-native Zebra riders are likely to be among the unit that leaves. Any children they may have left at the fort grow up as members of the sedentary part of the Zebra Tribe.

The Kyreming lineage of Opili's Fort possibly fell already to Joras Toran, or if some managed to survive hiding, the Kaggroka Clan will have eaten them later.

8 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

The remainder is still decimated and busy with duties and responsibilities of its own.That still leaves the humans of the Rubble who claim the original rule of Pavis and reside in Mani’s Fort and Real City unspoken for. And we still do not know about the tale of the night watch.

The Real City receives an Alkothi female as overseer. Now there is an NPC waiting to be published...

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Quote

The remainder is still decimated and busy with duties and responsibilities of its own.That still leaves the humans of the Rubble who claim the original rule of Pavis and reside in Mani’s Fort and Real City unspoken for. And we still do not know about the tale of the night watch.

 

Groovy, I now ha

[Atgxtg]

20 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes, as long as you draw the line at that  Canadian classic from the  70’s “Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS” you might t be okay.

Sigh they burned down the set of Stalag 13 for that move.

[Bill the barbarian]

44 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Sigh they burned down the set of Stalag 13 for that move.

An interesting tale, but I am not finding evidence of it on DuckDuckGo  (the choice of all wise Gloranthans, go course). I see a lot of mentions of it still existing in  Culver City, but Lisa, She wolf... being Canadian I thought was filmed in Canada. (off thread, not a chance I was referring to  Culver City in Pavis County, honest... Where the frig is my focus for lie?”)

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

An interesting tale, but I am not finding evidence of it on DuckDuckGo  (the choice of all wise Gloranthans, go course).

It is mentioned at Imdb, and elsewhere.

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I see a lot of mentions of it still existing in  Culver City,

Could you please post a few. Everything I've seen said that the set was used for the filming of Ilsa in  1975, where the stuido allowed it to be bruned down for the film, in order to avoid the costs to demolish the sets.

 

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

but Lisa, She wolf... being Canadian I thought was filmed in Canada. (off thread, not a chance I was referring to  Culver City in Pavis County, honest... Where the frig is my focus for lie?”)

imdb, among other places state that it was filmed in California  on the Hogan's Heroes outdoor sets. 

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

No Pavis Royal Guard? Or the Real PRG the zebra riders, was it? And what of the Trollkin night watch? The folk of Mani’s fort or the real city?

None of those is really allied with the Lunars, with the possible exception of the Zebra riders, but they could be replaced by the Pavis Royal Guard.

I would think that many of the organisations of Pavis are loyal to Pavis and tolerated the Lunars. When the Lunars leave, they are still under the control of Pavis and serve whoever is in charge, in this case Argrath.

 

[Ian Absentia]

56 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I would think that many of the organisations of Pavis are loyal to Pavis and tolerated the Lunars. When the Lunars leave, they are still under the control of Pavis and serve whoever is in charge, in this case Argrath.

That may be a generous assumption, as in power vacuums, "collaborators" are often targeted by the locals, unless the new regime institutes firm order.  From what I hear, Argrath falls short of "firm order" in liberating Pavis, so I don't feel optimistic about the interim guard under the Lunars.

!i!

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

None of those is really allied with the Lunars, with the possible exception of the Zebra riders, but they could be replaced by the Pavis Royal Guard.

I would think that many of the organisations of Pavis are loyal to Pavis and tolerated the Lunars. When the Lunars leave, they are still under the control of Pavis and serve whoever is in charge, in this case Argrath.

 

I think you missed the point sir, we were talking after the lunars left (huzzah).  I know, to us old timers it seems like they had always been there and always would...

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I think you missed the point sir, we were talking after the lunars left (huzzah).

That's what I thought I was talking about.

The Trollkin Watch, Mani's Fort and Real City belong to Pavis and can still fulfil their duties under the new administration. once the Zebra Purge happens, the Pavis Royal Guard can still perform its original ceremonial duties, but with new Zebra folk loyal to Argrath.

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

That may be a generous assumption, as in power vacuums, "collaborators" are often targeted by the locals, unless the new regime institutes firm order.  From what I hear, Argrath falls short of "firm order" in liberating Pavis, so I don't feel optimistic about the interim guard under the Lunars.

It depends how they play it, really.

If they say "We were here before the Lunars came and are here after the Lunars left, we serve Pavis" then people might react well to them.

The Trollkin Watch might have a problem, as they were introduced under the Lunars, I think.

The Pavis Royal Guard was very close to the Lunars, so they would need to be purged and replaced with good Zebra Riders.

But, yes, those who went to bed with the Lunars would find themselves dead by the morning.

[Glorion]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

That's what I thought I was talking about.

The Trollkin Watch, Mani's Fort and Real City belong to Pavis and can still fulfil their duties under the new administration. once the Zebra Purge happens, the Pavis Royal Guard can still perform its original ceremonial duties, but with new Zebra folk loyal to Argrath.

It depends how they play it, really.

If they say "We were here before the Lunars came and are here after the Lunars left, we serve Pavis" then people might react well to them.

The Trollkin Watch might have a problem, as they were introduced under the Lunars, I think.

The Pavis Royal Guard was very close to the Lunars, so they would need to be purged and replaced with good Zebra Riders.

But, yes, those who went to bed with the Lunars would find themselves dead by the morning.

Finally, after some unfortunate diversions to which I myself have contributed, we're *somewhat* back to the original subject I asked about. But only somewhat. A lot of stuff about the Big Rubble, no doubt a very interesting topic in itself. But I was asking about New Pavis and what's going on there, not about the Big Rubble, which, oddly enough, I find less interesting.

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Glorion said:

A lot of stuff about the Big Rubble, no doubt a very interesting topic in itself. But I was asking about New Pavis and what's going on there, not about the Big Rubble, which, oddly enough, I find less interesting.

Don't forget that, under Argrath, with Pavis knocking about, there is no substantial difference between New Pavis and Old Pavis, it's all Pavis.

Most of the Daughters of Pavis were neutral to the Lunars, or opposed to them. so, those organisations loyal to them might be seen to be the same.

The Merchants have the Trade Temple, which is largely independent anyway, in this case any Etyries influence will have been removed and any Etyries Merchants killed or sent packing. In any case, Traders trade with everyone, so they won;t mind Etyries Merchants.

Scholars will be the same, but with Lhankor Mhy taking over the Trade Temple, at the expense of Irripi Ontor cultists. some spiteful Lunar scholars might try to burn down their annex, but I doubt if the other scholars would let them. There are some Pavis cults that might come out and support the Knowledge Temple. In any case, scholars are rarely seen taking sides.

The Orlanth Temple will see a change in leadership, reversing that which happens in One High Priest too Many. Lunar sympathisers would have disappeared into the Rubble or fled into Prax.

The Thief Cults would operate in the same way, as they have no allegiance to anyone except themselves.

The water folk will just trade with whoever wants them. People will still need to be taken up and down the Zola Fel. They also helped Argrath on the Cradle, so would be friendly to the new regime.

Nomads would, generally, be better disposed to the people of Pavis than before, due to Argrath White Bull. Previously, they hated Pavis and wanted to destroy it, but now, after their period of wanton slaughter, rape and pillage, they probably don't mind. 

Yelmalions are in a bit of a pickle, as the people of Sun County sided with the Lunars in the Cradle scenario and also generally. However, the Yelmalians of Sun Town, in Pavis, are different to those in Sun County and might escape retaliation. In my Glorantha, the Yelmalians of Sun Town are a different faction, opposed to Count Solanthos and trying to get their candidate installed as Count.

The Zebra folk and other Lunar-hired mercenaries would be seen as having actively aided and abetted the Lunars, so would have fled or gone to ground. In the Zebra Riders' case, the Good Zebra Riders who supported Argrath are now in charge, with the Bad ones exiled or killed.

The Night Watch would probably be OK, as they are just Trollkin and answer to the Constable of Pavis.

I can't think of any more factions, off the top of my head, but have probably missed loads.

 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

Don't forget that, under Argrath, with Pavis knocking about, there is no substantial difference between New Pavis and Old Pavis, it's all Pavis.

...

WaitWaitWait...  Has Pavis come out of his cryochamber?  Is he actually walking the streets, and eating, and ... generally being an incarnate person again?

 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/7/2019 at 5:40 PM, soltakss said:

That's what I thought I was talking about.

The Trollkin Watch, Mani's Fort and Real City belong to Pavis and can still fulfil their duties under the new administration. once the Zebra Purge happens, the Pavis Royal Guard can still perform its original ceremonial duties, but with new Zebra folk loyal to Argrath.

 

Oh aren’t head colds lovely... 

We are both saying the exact same thang (reasonably sure  but having a hard moving so I will ask you to look back to my first response to the query  what kind of  forces could protect Pavis after the lunars defeat and I responded  with a few questions myself. like that about the humans in the rubble, the trollkin and the various incarnations of the RPG and made a few suppositions when yo came in saying the exact same thing and asking me to “defend yer honour sir”, fooled ya, got none:).

edited for clarity  soltakss I do not mean page one I mean the  last page or the page before when we started talking about Pavis again...

I look forward to arguing with you again (on opposite sides next time my good man) when I have more head and less cold

Now to the OP, sorry for the apparent drift but I will have to agree with soltakss agin (oh hell what am I doing, Duck!). After the lunars pull out talking about Pavis will be a very different experience. The rubble will have t be a part of this new conversation.

Cheers

Edited December 9, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Jeff]

On 11/15/2019 at 11:57 PM, Glorion said:

My campaign, currently about to move in to 1626, is headed towards Pavis in the nearish future. As GM, I need to decide just what Pavis is like these days before we get there. Yes, I know, YGMV, but I'd like to be at least vaguely consistent with what Chaosium comes up with when something finally gets published. What I am very unclear on is just what officially happens to Pavis when the Lunars are overthrown. KOS says that all Lunar soldiers are killed, and the city is sacked by Praxian barbarians. What happens to the considerable Lunar civilian population, and the even more considerable number of locals who prefer Lunar occupation to Praxian, according to the old published materials? Are they too all killed? Does something get worked out by Argrath so that they're all just fine? Something in between I assume, but I'd like to have at least a vague unspecific idea of what, and of course what Argrath's role is in all that. When my party gets to Pavis, do they see a happy bustling liberated town, or piles of rotting corpses, or what?

Let me go back to the original post: 

In 1626, Pavis is ruled by Argrath White Bull, who has been acclaimed King of Pavis. After the Second Battle of Moonbroth, in late 1624, the defeated Lunar army retreated to Pavis where they prepared to defend the city. When the nomad army arrived, the Governor and his household fled but most of the soldiers stayed. The assault on the city used Jaldon's magic to bite through a section of the city wall.

What then happened follows what happens in most captured cities in warfare. The Marble Phalanx, Silver Shields, and Antelope Lancer regiments lose their standards and their soldiers are killed in battle or taken prisoner.  Obviously rich people got looted, and a lot of collateral damage happens (like in the neighbourhoods the Lunar soldiers retreated into). Argrath got acclaimed king, was acknowledged by Lord Pavis, and rules his city while holding his army together and investigating magical secrets. He tries to invade Dragon Pass in 1625, is defeated, and then invades again in late 1626, early 1627, leaving behind a garrison and a viceroy.

By 1626, a lot of the damage from the fall of the city in 1624 is likely repaired or at least patched up. The Flintnail dwarves are happy for a chance to work, and stone and clay are plentiful. Some neighbourhoods are still heavily damaged but trade with Dragon Pass is restored, caravans again cross the Long Dry, etc. Argrath has established his court in the old Lunar governor's palace and after the Battle of Queens, delegations from Sartar try to persuade him to return to Sartar to claim the kingdom.

There are Lunars still in Pavis. Most are slaves, some are crafters or other skilled professionals, and some others practice their religion in secret. Some of the inhabitants are now nostalgic about the peaceful reign of Sor-eel (I doubt any have nostalgia for the corrupt regime of his successor Halcyon), but the Empire is gone and not coming back. The nomads have the liberty of the city, but are held in check by Argrath (who also raises the Pavis Royal Guard).

[Jeff]

49 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Let me go back to the original post: 

In 1626, Pavis is ruled by Argrath White Bull, who has been acclaimed King of Pavis. After the Second Battle of Moonbroth, in late 1624, the defeated Lunar army retreated to Pavis where they prepared to defend the city. When the nomad army arrived, the Governor and his household fled but most of the soldiers stayed. The assault on the city used Jaldon's magic to bite through a section of the city wall.

What then happened follows what happens in most captured cities in warfare. The Marble Phalanx, Silver Shields, and Antelope Lancer regiments lose their standards and their soldiers are killed in battle or taken prisoner.  Obviously rich people got looted, and a lot of collateral damage happens (like in the neighbourhoods the Lunar soldiers retreated into). Argrath got acclaimed king, was acknowledged by Lord Pavis, and rules his city while holding his army together and investigating magical secrets. He tries to invade Dragon Pass in 1625, is defeated, and then invades again in late 1626, early 1627, leaving behind a garrison and a viceroy.

By 1626, a lot of the damage from the fall of the city in 1624 is likely repaired or at least patched up. The Flintnail dwarves are happy for a chance to work, and stone and clay are plentiful. Some neighbourhoods are still heavily damaged but trade with Dragon Pass is restored, caravans again cross the Long Dry, etc. Argrath has established his court in the old Lunar governor's palace and after the Battle of Queens, delegations from Sartar try to persuade him to return to Sartar to claim the kingdom.

There are Lunars still in Pavis. Most are slaves, some are crafters or other skilled professionals, and some others practice their religion in secret. Some of the inhabitants are now nostalgic about the peaceful reign of Sor-eel (I doubt any have nostalgia for the corrupt regime of his successor Halcyon), but the Empire is gone and not coming back. The nomads have the liberty of the city, but are held in check by Argrath (who also raises the Pavis Royal Guard).

Here's another version of the same story:
 

In 1624, Argrath mustered the White Bull brotherhood to him and together they summoned Jaldon Goldentooth and an army of Praxians. But instead of attacking Dragon Pass, Jaldon followed Argrath east towards the Lunar city of New Pavis. 

Once again, the nomad host met the Lunars and their Sable Rider allies at the oasis of Moonbroth. The White Bull Brotherhood had gathered Bison Riders, High Llamas, Impala, Pol-Joni, Pavis Survivors, and Sartarite adventurers and exiles; this time it was the Lunar army that was defeated. The Sable Riders submitted to Argrath White Bull; the Lunars retreated to Pavis and prepared to defend their city.

The Lunar defenders fought hard, and levied such terrible losses that the only survivors among the assailants were heroes that day. But the few successful warriors had planted the seeds of defeat upon the wall, and the next day the eating things had cracked a segment in the north wall so that it nearly all fell to dust.

The Granite Phalanx charged through the gap but were destroyed by Argrath’s new Sable Rider allies. The proud Praxians charged through the breach led by Narmeed Whirlvishbane, of the Bison Tribe; Yazurkial Blue Llama, of the High Llama Riders; and Roneer the Hue, of the Sable Riders. All of the Lunar soldiers were executed or enslaved by order of Yazurkial Blue Llama. Argrath White Bull was proclaimed King of Pavis.

[Runeblogger]

That sparks more questions:

1. What were the numbers of the Praxian forces?

2. Did all those forces cross the river at some point to get to Moonbroth or did they arrive there through Pavis County (north of Pavis)?

3. What exactly were those «eating things» summoned by Jaldon? 🤔

[Ian Absentia]

On 12/9/2019 at 1:26 AM, Runeblogger said:

That sparks more questions:

1. What were the numbers of the Praxian forces?

2. Did all those forces cross the river at some point to get to Moonbroth or did they arrive there through Pavis County (north of Pavis)?

3. What exactly were those «eating things» summoned by Jaldon? 🤔

Fuzzy on the first two, but the third is clear: Krarshtkids.

One of the inevitable problems with "history" is inadvertently or purposefully mis-remembering cultural events to match current values.  Cultural drift, revisionism, what-have-you, Jaldon's potential as a magical resource was evaluated incompletely, though (presumably) without intent of malice (well, without malice toward anyone other than the Lunars), and he turned out to be something more of a loose cannon than anyone'd anticipated.  At least the monsters ended up on the side of the White Bull, and history will eventually remember those "eating things" as something far more benign.

!i!

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Fuzzy on the first two, but the third is clear: Krarshtkids.

I would offer Boggles as an alternative to Krarshtkids.

Boggles are infamous for nibbling away at anything in the Celestial Palace, leaving Tylenea's scarf in tatters, and loving Uleria to bits.