Bill the barbarian Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) Eating makes me think of teeth and teeth when it comes to Argrath of course brings to mind Dragon’s Teeth (or Jaldon Goldentooth/toothmaker). Any tie-in in Joerg, anyone, or am I stretching? Edited December 10, 2019 by Bill the barbarian Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 37 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said: Eating makes me think of teeth and teeth when it comes to Argrath of course brings to mind Dragon’s Teeth (or Jaldon Goldentooth/toothmaker). Any tie-in in Joerg, anyone, or am I stretching? My thought would be Bad Dream Enostar and his vision of saving the people of Pavis by becoming eaters rather than eaten. This is probably not what's intended, of course. 1 Quote "And I am pretty tired of all this fuss about rfevealign that many worshippers of a minor goddess might be lesbians." -Greg Stafford, April 11, 2007 "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Eff said: My thought would be Bad Dream Enostar and his vision of saving the people of Pavis by becoming eaters rather than eaten. This is probably not what's intended, of course. No more speculation than mine I am sure... Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 51 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said: ... (or Jaldon Goldentooth/toothmaker) ... It's Jaldon who summoned the "eating things" (above, Jeff says "Jaldon's magic" and they "planted the seeds," saying it "bites through" the city walls, which "fell to dust.") Jaldon has previously done something "toothsome" to the walls of Pavis, of course! I'm not sure "canon" has an answer, here; so anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. The whole Arkat/Argrath arc seems to be "Chaos BAD, and ANY alternative is better," so I'm not eager to accept @Ian Absentia's allegation of Krarshtkids in a key ally of Argrath's... but as noted, canon doesn't specify, so we can't rule it out. And frankly, there's more than a hint of entropy/Chaos in Jeff's description! OTOH, "eating" is also a notably "Darkness" thing, so maybe it was something Darkness-oriented. Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Possibility: The New Teeth opened the gates and this got twisted into Argrath's New Teeth ate a new hole in the walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Jaldon's original tooth magic ate a hole into the Rubble Wall in 940, when the EWF still was at large - Labrygon/Lorenkargartan had just about finished his Puzzle Canal. He received his relevation upon visiting the Plateau of Statues with the giant representation of perfect tooth smiles on those statue heads. So, yes, there are a number of other toothed being possible. Krarshtkids, Boggles (Trickster's Swallow?), Dragonteeth (but that's Argrath's magic, inherited from Iason or Phoenician Cadmus, creating demigod warriors from a pouch of dragon's teeth), Darkness (trolls or giants), or Enostar's New Teeth forcing one of the gates open or just helping an advance element over the wall. Personally, I favor some giant and or trickster connection, and a physical breach of Dorasor's Wall, no simple fuzzing with the gate. Gate-breaking was how Jorbal Rhino-Khan entered the original city. With Jaldon present, I think we should see Jaldon's name-giving magic at work. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) Jaldon is obviously just a trickster that got really good with the Swallow spell Edited December 11, 2019 by Richard S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 8 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said: Is this considered "normal" and "honorable"? Slightly Harsh? Very Harsh? Asking since our party will arrive there next year and wondering how they might think about reacting. (Glorion, the original poster, is our GM) Some of us Hate Lunars and don't care, some of us don't hate anybody and have high Honor, a Passion I haven't quite figured out. I don't believe there's any issue of honor here - that would only come into play if they were offered terms of surrender that were then violated (and even then, only some cultures would find it dishonorable - Praxians might view it as well-executed trick and congratulate themselves). And it's either execution or slavery, so any considerations of harshness would have to be evaluated on that spectrum. Death might be preferable to being sold as slaves to the Morokanth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said: I don't believe there's any issue of honor here - that would only come into play if they were offered terms of surrender that were then violated (and even then, only some cultures would find it dishonorable - Praxians might view it as well-executed trick and congratulate themselves). And it's either execution or slavery, so any considerations of harshness would have to be evaluated on that spectrum. Death might be preferable to being sold as slaves to the Morokanth. I'm quite sure that slavery of war prisoners is seen as the normal solution in Glorantha. It seems a logical way to compensate for the losses in one's work force, and to pay for the war costs. In real world, Romans did it, Greeks did it, Gauls did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Kloster said: I'm quite sure that slavery of war prisoners is seen as the normal solution in Glorantha. It seems a logical way to compensate for the losses in one's work force, and to pay for the war costs. In real world, Romans did it, Greeks did it, Gauls did it. It was pretty ubiquitous in the ancient world, I think. Not just "war" prisoners (captured soldiers), civilians from conquered territories. Edited December 11, 2019 by g33k Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 18 hours ago, g33k said: It was pretty ubiquitous in the ancient world, I think. Not just "war" prisoners (captured soldiers), civilians from conquered territories. Yes, but the OP question was about Lunar soldiers in Pavis. Tha's why I answered only on soldiers. But of course, you are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kloster said: Yes, but the OP question was about Lunar soldiers in Pavis. Tha's why I answered only on soldiers. But of course, you are right. That’s the most annoying part of arguing with a grognard the response usually covers so much damn territory that inevitably part of it has to be right! Edited December 12, 2019 by Bill the barbarian Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minlister Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 @Jeff I have a small question about the new "Pavis and BR book". Are you (or the Chaosium team more broadly) keeping the size of the BR as it was in P:GtA or do you consider adopting the vast scale introduced in Ian Thompson"s companion series? Or a third option? I, personally, am more comfortable with the "big one", considering the amount of places of interest, people and factions, but I was wondering what would be the "canonical" position. Thanks you in advance! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Meints Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I believe we are staying the course on the size of the Rubble, as per P:GtA. That's how Chaosium's documented it since the 1980s, since the Pavis and Big Rubble boxed sets came out. We prefer not top label things as "canonical". Use whatever works best for your campaign. 1 1 Quote Hope that Helps,Rick Meints - Chaosium, Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill the barbarian Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rick Meints said: We prefer not top label things as "canonical". Use whatever works best for your campaign. That is incredibly refreshing, thanks Rick! Quote ... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minlister Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 @Rick Meints Thanks a lot! Of course, in the end, I always make my own mind when playing at my own table, but I was interested nonetheless, as I have something I would like to translate for the JC and as it would be used by other, I'd rather keep in line with the official line's choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 14 hours ago, Minlister said: @Jeff I have a small question about the new "Pavis and BR book". Are you (or the Chaosium team more broadly) keeping the size of the BR as it was in P:GtA or do you consider adopting the vast scale introduced in Ian Thompson"s companion series? Or a third option? I, personally, am more comfortable with the "big one", considering the amount of places of interest, people and factions, but I was wondering what would be the "canonical" position. Thanks you in advance! The Ian Thomson books are Ian's own version of Glorantha, not ours. Pavis and the Big Rubble are staying the same size as presented in the original books, which is the same size as in P:GtA. As it is, Old Pavis is one of the largest (in physical area) cities in Glorantha (if not the largest). As an interesting point in comparison, here's the size of several ancient world cities: Alexandria: 236 hectares (residential districts, not including palace or Pharos) Antioch: 375 hectares Athens: 120 hectares Autun: 200 hectares Babylon: 500 hectares Jeusalem: 110 hectares (including the Temple and Herod's Palace) Londinium:135 hectares Miletus: 100 hectares Ninevah: 720 hectares Palmyra: 130 hectares Pompeii: 65 hectares Rhodes: 388 hectares Rome: 360 hectares (area within the Servian Wall). For comparison with Glorantha: Boldhome: 350 hectares Furthest: 130 hectares Nochet: 600 hectares Glamour: 850 hectares Old Pavis: 1905 hectares! 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) Q: if Wakboth's eye is under Pavis, would the Stormbullies be permanently uneasy? Edited January 10, 2020 by Shiningbrow Grrr - auto-correct! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minlister Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 @Jeff Thank you, yes, I realize that it is a big area; just saying that in my mind, I envisioned it even bigger, because of pasture and hunting area. Constantinople (theodosian landwalls) was ca. 1500 ha, so pretty close. But, yes, it is true that walking from Haghia Sophia to the landwall is quite a stroll. Thanks also a lot for the data on the other Gloranthan cities, although I think some of them seem a little bit out of line with the population numbers but it is a magic world after all, no real issue with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Minlister said: @Jeff Thank you, yes, I realize that it is a big area; just saying that in my mind, I envisioned it even bigger, because of pasture and hunting area. Constantinople (theodosian landwalls) was ca. 1500 ha, so pretty close. But, yes, it is true that walking from Haghia Sophia to the landwall is quite a stroll. Thanks also a lot for the data on the other Gloranthan cities, although I think some of them seem a little bit out of line with the population numbers but it is a magic world after all, no real issue with that. I'm very confident with those sizes. Cities like Boldhome have huge area because the city has a lot of open space. Furthest is smaller, but much more densely populated. Nochet is much more densely populated than Glamour (of which half the city is essentially a Forbidden City for the Red Emperor). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minlister Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) yes, sorry, I was not clear, I meant I think these are very big cities (and yes, I put aside Boldhome considering its peculiar topography, basically a closed valley occupied by various settlements more than a city) considering the demography of their hinterland (the Lunar empire is around 6.5 MM if I remember well?). So should we also envision most of these cities with huge open spaces inside the walls, like the enclosed hunting grounds of Mesopotamian kings, and enormous temple precinct without inhabitants ? No sarcasm or hidden criticism here, just a question to be able to visualize the type of urban landscape what you have in mind. EDIT: to be clear, I do not consider that the forbidden city for the Red Emperor can be seen as one of those underpopulated area, palatial zones are very densely populated usually considering they are multi-layered. Edited January 10, 2020 by Minlister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonsnail Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said: Q: if Wakboth's eye is under Pavis, would the Stormbullies be permanently uneasy? I'd say uneasy is Storm Bullers resting state. So it would be on a scale, like slightly more uneasy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/10/2020 at 9:27 AM, Shiningbrow said: Q: if Wakboth's eye is under Pavis, would the Stormbullies be permanently uneasy? It is too far away for sense chaos to have any effect. Also, it is buried under a lot of rock and soil, so this masks Sense Chaos. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 4 hours ago, soltakss said: It is too far away for sense chaos to have any effect. Also, it is buried under a lot of rock and soil, so this masks Sense Chaos. Well, Robin wasn't clear on the exact location (I think he was saying it was up to each GM). "Buried under lots of rock and soil"...' except, a simple fire releases it... Burn some branches, evil incarnate comes back into the world. Now, if it was under a buried temple with a pile of solid rock to mask it... ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonsnail Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 5 hours ago, soltakss said: It is too far away for sense chaos to have any effect. Also, it is buried under a lot of rock and soil, so this masks Sense Chaos. I would not use rules to play that bit out if I would include it in a Pavis adventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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