Gerendetho Cult

[Gallowglass]

I started this topic in the Glorantha forum about the cult of Gerendetho, and why it's come up in my campaign. I thought I would post what I have so far on my bare-bones cult write-up. I'm definitely interested in hearing opinions on if the new spells I made up are too powerful, and if so, how they could be nerfed a bit. 

Gerendetho (Earth, Fertility, Beast)

Holy Days – Gerendetho’s High Holy Day is Wildday of Fertility Week, Earth Season. Seasonal holy days are every Wildday of Fertility Week.

Initiate Membership

-          Standard

-          Cult Skills: Climb, Jump, Sing, Dance, Farm, Herd, Peaceful Cut, 1H Spear, 2H Spear

-          Spirit Magic: Befuddle, Detect Life, Heal, Protection, Strength, Vigor

-          Favored Passions: Devotion (Gerendetho), Devotion (Hedonism)

Rune Magic

-          Common Rune Magic: All

-          Special Rune Magic: Arouse Passion, Command Goat, Dismiss Earth Elemental (Small/Medium), Earthpower, Earth Spear, Raise Earth, Reproduce, Summon Earth Elemental (Small/Medium)

-          Enchantments: Ban, Binding Enchantment, Enchant Copper, Magic Point Enchantment, Matrix Creation, Spirit Armor Enchantment

Rune Priest

-          Standard

Associated Cults

-          Lodril – Provides Shield

-          Uryarda – Provides Bless Goats

-          Oria – Provides Heal Body

Earth Spear (Earth)

3 points

Touch, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell is cast on a spear. While the spell is active, the spear’s normal damage is not rolled. Instead, the damage is always equal to the wielder’s current total hit points. Thus, if the wielder has 15 hit points, their spear strikes always deal 15 hp worth of damage. If they are reduced to 3 hp total, their attacks will only hit for 3 damage. Extra hp gained from spells such as Vigor is not included in the final damage. Damage bonus is not rolled while Earth Spear is active.

Raise Earth (Earth)

2 points

Ranged, Temporal, Stackable

This spell raises up a pillar of bedrock from beneath the ground. The rock explodes upward with considerable force, potentially knocking foes to the ground if summoned beneath their feet. A roll of DEXx5 is required to keep from falling prone in this case. The caster can also choose to raise the ground slowly, however this still causes noticeable rumbling and tremors as the earth shifts. The amount of rock that is raised is a rounded pillar 5 meters tall and 5 meters wide. Additional Rune points add an additional 5 meters in either height or width. This can create walls, support structures, or even entire hills, but the rock cannot be moved or shaped once summoned. This spell affects solid, subterranean rock. It has no effect on soil, clay, or other loose materials. It can only call rock upwards to the surface, it cannot be used to move rocks on the surface or create fissures. Depending on the local landscape, it could be used to cause rockfalls or avalanches.

Edit: Already changed one thing, extra damage from Vigor seems like too much. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Gallowglass

[Gallowglass]

Okay, maybe this is a less broken take on the Earth Spear idea. Still keeps the idea of HP tied to damage, with less immediate killing or maiming likely to happen to my players. 

Earth Spear (Earth)

3 points

Touch, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell is cast on a spear. While the spell is active, the wielder of the spear adds half of their current hp (rounding up) to any damage rolled. Thus, if the wielder had 16 total hp, they would add 8 to their damage rolls. If their hp were reduced to 4, they would only add 2 bonus damage (minimum bonus of 1). Extra hp granted by spells like Vigor is factored into this bonus. This spell is incompatible with Bladesharp and other damage-enhancing spells.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Gallowglass

[Crel]

Notes, not necessarily in a particular order...

My first impression is that this cult is strong. Perhaps stronger than a regional minor cult. I think I get that impression from the strength of Earth Spear and Raise Earth, but another notable element is that the cult gets access to both Heal Body and Shield through associate cults. (A combination which IIRC only Orlanth has direct RP access to otherwise.) That makes the cult very attractive to adventurers, even if some of the other spells don't have as much adventurer relevance.

I'm unclear on if the raised stone remains after casting Raise Earth; I'm pretty sure it does, but because the spell has the temporal tag that makes me wonder if it lasts only fifteen minutes, then recesses into the ground.

Earth Spear strikes me as really strong. I think the core concept of 1/2 current HP as damage is really powerful; I'm not certain if it's more powerful than 3 RP or not. It helps that the spell is nonstackable and therefore not viable for use with Extension. It might be simpler to say damage equal to half CON, so you don't need to muck about with bonus HP and things like Vigor. However, that does also improve an already strong spell.

I did follow that link to the other thread, but among my first reactions to this cult writeup was "okay, but who is Gerendetho?" Developing a short explanatory paragraph or two would improve the writeup, especially if you plan to offer it to players.

Does Gerendetho have Rune Lords? Thus far, my impression is of a warlike cult also concerned with fertility things.

Likewise, the spirit magic selection is also very good, as a player adventurer. You have your debuff/POW Gain spell, healing, protection, damage buff, and HP buff, all in one cult. Plus, Detect Life is another great utility spell as an adventurer (even if it does give your position away).

I feel like I don't know if this is meant to represent a major or a minor cult. My gut would say minor cult from what I skimmed in the other thread, but your writeup, to me, presents a cult and deity of a fairly substantial power and quantity of worship. Maybe not a major deity like Orlanth, but about as significant, perhaps, as Waha or Storm Bull. In that measurement I haven't run any specific numbers, but I'm rather eyeballing both the quantity and quality of Gerendetho's Rune spells against my memory of what spells those cults have access to. For example, IIRC Waha has small Earth elementals (from Eiritha) and Shield, but doesn't have an obvious "offense" spell like Earth Spear and further is restricted in his access to Heal. So Gerendetho seems to me in my mindset as a player to have more attractive war or "adventure" magic than the main god of the Praxians.

[Gallowglass]

Thanks for your feedback. I’m planning to use this cult for an upcoming antagonist in our campaign, but I figured I would write it up in more detail just for fun. 

Gerendetho is a fairly minor cult everywhere but Kostaddi it seems, so I guess this would be the Dara Happan version of the cult. I think your take on it as a “cult for adventurers” fits the bill pretty well actually. The HQ1 version paints him as being a more wild, Earth-oriented version of Lodril. In Kostaddi he is somewhat tamed, with his fertility aspects having more importance. But outside the civilized bounds of the empire he is more reckless, feckless, and violent.

His defining myth (his only one really) is his duel with the Granite Man, and his creation of the Hungry Plateau and Jord Mountains. I felt like his spells should reflect his mythic deeds, so he needed a spear-related spell (he fought with a spear, plus, male fertility symbol), and something about creating hills. I found it hard to come up with a good spear spell, because Earth gods generally don’t have access to destructive powers unless they have the Death or Disorder runes. 

19 hours ago, Crel said:

I feel like I don't know if this is meant to represent a major or a minor cult. My gut would say minor cult from what I skimmed in the other thread, but your writeup, to me, presents a cult and deity of a fairly substantial power and quantity of worship

I could probably power him down to reflect his minor status better. He doesn’t really need Heal Body or medium earth elementals. But I don’t feel like a minor cult needs to have weak spells, just less variety than an Orlanth or an Ernalda. 

[Jeff]

Lodril became Master of Fire Below, and it was he who was obligated to control the lesser deities that lived beneath the celestial sphere. He raised mountains, carved rivers, made love to grain goddesses, and shaped the first temple. From time to time, he erupted to the surface, in an eruption of fire and ash. Lodril’s activities were widespread, and the god had countless lovers among the Earth goddesses. His sexual licentiousness made for many offspring and the illiteracy of his priests made for sloppy storytelling; as a result, Lodril is known by many local names, which often makes it seem as if he were many different gods.

Lodril is known throughout Glorantha, although he is called by many different names. Lodril is his best known; however, even in Peloria, he is also called Deshlotalas, Gerendetho, Turos, and Vi-Turos. In Kethaela, he is known as Veskarthan. In Kralorela, he is called the Minister for Fire. In Teshnos, he is Solf the Lord of Volcanoes. In Pamaltela, he is called Bendaluza or Balumbasta. 

I'd handle him as a subcult of Lodril.

[Gallowglass]

Lodril subcult makes sense, especially in Kostaddi. But because Gerendetho doesn’t have any association with the Fire rune, I still feel the need to come up with a whole bunch of different spells for him. Looking at the RQ2 Lodril, almost all of his spells involve fire, including his spear-related one. Not sure how the new Lodril is going to look in GaGoG though. 

Also, I prefer Gerendetho as a son of Lodril in my Glorantha, rather than the big man himself. In general whenever I’m presented  with two similar gods, I tend to interpret them as separate beings. More interesting that way, for me at least. Lodril is often the exception however, cuz that guy gets around.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

Lodril subcult makes sense, especially in Kostaddi. But because Gerendetho doesn’t have any association with the Fire rune, I still feel the need to come up with a whole bunch of different spells for him. Looking at the RQ2 Lodril, almost all of his spells involve fire, including his spear-related one. Not sure how the new Lodril is going to look in GaGoG though. 

Also, I prefer Gerendetho as a son of Lodril in my Glorantha, rather than the big man himself. In general whenever I’m presented  with two similar gods, I tend to interpret them as separate beings. More interesting that way, for me at least. Lodril is often the exception however, cuz that guy gets around.

I'd say he sheared Granite Man's head off with a Lava Spear or a Fire Spear. 

[David Scott]

I did some background work on the Hungry Plateau Sables for comparison work with the Praxian Sables. As they separated in the first age I looked at what changes were needed to support them any from Prax. Basically Waha & Eiritha become diminished as their mythology in no longer local, but the core of their society remains the same (the twin stars). I looked at what local gods might supplant Waha & Eirtha on the plateau and came up with:

Quote

 

•   New male spirit needed to supplement/replace Waha in new land. Candidate: Gerendetho. "Kostaddi: Two thirds of the satrapy's territory is rich farmland, while the rest is the tall foreboding Hungry Plateau. This was the home of the Earth God Gerendetho, who once quarrelled with the giants who lived in a big palatial hill made of granite. During the fight, Gerendetho sheared off the whole top of the hill and the ruins of palace is now called the Hungry Plateau. Gerendetho shoved all the rest of the rock to the side, and that big pile is now called the Jord Mountains." Gerendetho fulfills the role of dead Genert who would be his father - a "coming home" for any Praxian. For this to work, he has the runes of (death) and (earth). Waha defers to him in this land.

 •   New female spirit needed to supplement/replace Eiritha in new land. Candidate: Pelora: "Genert and Gata were children of the Primal Earth, and formed two corners of the Earth Rune. Genert fathered many goddesses upon his sister, and they are the land goddesses found everywhere. They gave their names to the regions of Genertela. Hence Ralia is the goddess of Ralios, Frona is the goddess of Fronela, and so forth. In Peloria, the daughter of Genert and Gata was called Pela or Pelora." Pelora is the land goddess here, she is a sister-wife to Gerendetho. For this to work, she has the runes of (life) and (earth). She is not a grain goddess in this form. Eiritha defers to her in this land.

 Paps/ religious centre replacement. Candidate: Two Towers - the only settlement. Beneath the giant's palace, is an earth temple of some kind, perhaps Gerendetho and/or Pelora's birthplace/home. Similar to the Cleft of Dorasta. 

 

I then combined them into a new spirit society:

The Earth Guardians - Pelora (earth)(life) and Gerendetho (earth)(death). Accepts both men and women. Has a shaman path.

This is of course only relevant to the HPS and is HQG but might be of use.

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Also, I prefer Gerendetho as a son of Lodril in my Glorantha, rather than the big man himself. In general whenever I’m presented  with two similar gods, I tend to interpret them as separate beings. More interesting that way, for me at least. Lodril is often the exception however, cuz that guy gets around.

Children are sometimes worshipped through their parent cults, most notably in RQ:G with Issaries at the moment. Certainly after reading through the Entekosiad you could interpret ViSaruDaran as Lodril, and Turos as one of his children.

I'd say an important fire spell for all Lords of the Earth would be Earthwarm, both to protect the fields and to let you sleep outside comfortably.

[Qizilbashwoman]

15 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

ViSaruDaran as Lodril, and Turos as one of his children

Turos is explicitly Lodril. Lodril is volcanic and births Himself over and over. Vi Saru Daran was old then, and He died during the Flood to the invading enemy god, the Water deity Oronin, but He lived on as Turos.

The "Sons of Lodril/Turos" are the many other Turoses named in the Entekosiad: Turos with an Addi, Turos of the City, and so forth. Some of them died during the Great Darkness.

The Rekindlers or whatever they were were a cadre of women who brought Lodril back from dead ashes by rubbing His firestick (addi), echoing the action of the Queen of the Hells when He was imprisoned there. It's very unsubtle sexual imagery in both cases.

[Gallowglass]

I decided to throw out some of my old ideas. My current Gerendetho has the Disorder rune instead of Beast. He still has Earth and Fertility, with the Reproduce spell being an important manifestation of Fertility, but his specific goat association mostly comes from Uryarda now. Generally less crazy powerful than before, this feels like a better fit for a more minor, regional cult. I threw out my two original spells, and made up some more new ones! Surefoot is just for kicks. Spear of Gerendetho is a nod to the fight with Granite Man, although it's not nearly as useful for cultists in a fight unless their enemy is below a cliff with a big boulder. Rockslide is supposed to represent the creation of the Jord Mountains, and it's... probably kind of powerful. My metric there was to make it less powerful than Orlanth's Thunderbolt spell, or Maran Gor's Shake Earth, which are comparable in power and dramatic effect. 

Gerendetho (Earth, Fertility, Disorder)

Holy Days – Gerendetho’s High Holy Day is Wildday of Fertility Week, Earth Season. Seasonal holy days are every Wildday of Fertility Week.

Initiate Membership

-          Standard

-          Cult Skills: Climb, Jump, Sing, Dance, Farm, Herd, 1H Spear, 2H Spear

-          Spirit Magic: Detect Life, Heal, Protection, Vigor

-          Favored Passions: Devotion (Gerendetho), Devotion (Hedonism)

Rune Magic

-          Common Rune Magic: All

-          Special Rune Magic: Arouse Passion, Dismiss Earth Elemental (Small), Rockslide, Spear of Gerendetho, Surefoot, Reproduce, Summon Earth Elemental (Small)

-          Enchantments: Ban, Binding Enchantment, Enchant Copper, Magic Point Enchantment, Matrix Creation, Spirit Armor Enchantment

Rune Priest

-          Standard

Associated Cults

-          Lodril – Provides Earthwarm

-          Uryarda – Provides Bless Goats

-          Oria – Provides Earthpower

Spear of Gerendetho (Earth, Disorder)

1 point

Touch, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell is cast on a spear. It causes the blade of the spear to elongate, and take on a rough, stony appearance. The wielder of the spear can now make slashing attacks in addition to impaling attacks. The wielder must have enough room to swing the spear to make slashing attacks, depending on it’s length. Additionally, the spear point now ignores any armor points for stone or rock-like materials, crushing or shattering them on impact. This does not apply to metal or pure minerals like diamond or gemstones. Creatures with stone-like skin or bodies are affected, including gargoyles and jolanti. Gerendetho cultists use this spell to attack walls and other structures, and sometimes to cause rockslides.

Surefoot – (Earth)

1 point

Ranged, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell doubles the caster’s percentage for their Climb and Jump skill, for the duration of the spell.

Rockslide – (Earth, Disorder)

2 points

Ranged, Temporal, Stackable

This spell calls up loose rock and gravel from above the ground, and directs it towards a designated target at great speed. The wave of earth is 5 square meters across, and usually includes small boulders of various sizes. Those struck by the rockslide must first roll DEXx5 to stay standing. If this roll succeeds, the target(s) take 1d6 damage to total hit points. Those knocked prone are carried by the rockslide until it stops, and take 2d6 damage to total hit points. Mundane armor does not protect against this damage, but spells like Shield and Protection will. This spell can be cast on level ground. In that case, the rockslide travels about 30 meters in a straight line before it loses momentum. This spell can only be cast where there are nearby rocks to be called. These can be on the surface, or called from below the earth if not deeper than 3 meters.

[Glorion]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:57 PM, Gallowglass said:

Thanks for your feedback. I’m planning to use this cult for an upcoming antagonist in our campaign, but I figured I would write it up in more detail just for fun. 

Gerendetho is a fairly minor cult everywhere but Kostaddi it seems, so I guess this would be the Dara Happan version of the cult. I think your take on it as a “cult for adventurers” fits the bill pretty well actually. The HQ1 version paints him as being a more wild, Earth-oriented version of Lodril. In Kostaddi he is somewhat tamed, with his fertility aspects having more importance. But outside the civilized bounds of the empire he is more reckless, feckless, and violent.

His defining myth (his only one really) is his duel with the Granite Man, and his creation of the Hungry Plateau and Jord Mountains. I felt like his spells should reflect his mythic deeds, so he needed a spear-related spell (he fought with a spear, plus, male fertility symbol), and something about creating hills. I found it hard to come up with a good spear spell, because Earth gods generally don’t have access to destructive powers unless they have the Death or Disorder runes. 

19 hours ago, Crel said:

I could probably power him down to reflect his minor status better. He doesn’t really need Heal Body or medium earth elementals. But I don’t feel like a minor cult needs to have weak spells, just less variety than an Orlanth or an Ernalda. 

Is Gerendetho an aspect or a son of Lodril? Hey, this is Glorantha. Depends on who you ask, like Vinga. Aspect or daughter of Orlanth? Yes. It's nice to have simple questions with simple yes or not answers.

[Qizilbashwoman]

28 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Is Gerendetho an aspect or a son of Lodril? Hey, this is Glorantha. Depends on who you ask, like Vinga. Aspect or daughter of Orlanth? Yes. It's nice to have simple questions with simple yes or not answers.

actually canonically Vinga is Orlanth, that's a weird one-off change that was made a while ago.

but yes, that's the general principle. it's doubly so with Lodril, as we just discussed with the Weirdo Twins Aurelion and Caladra. Is this a case of Caladra being a (sex-swapped by God Learners) Son of Lodril or is it just Lodril again in a new wrapper? The world literally will never know.

[David Scott]

On 11/20/2019 at 2:51 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

actually canonically Vinga is Orlanth, that's a weird one-off change that was made a while ago.

The Vinga is Orlanth reveal is probably 25 years old. I remember clearly Greg saying that "Vinga is Orlanth in a dress" and "Orlanth Adventuress" In my head it stems back to a whole conversation around how Vinga is Orlanth's anima. By separating her into another being it makes her acceptable to many men to whom Orlanth is a male role model. This separation doesn't diminish her stories. Some men will understand this, accepting Orlanth has a female aspect. Some Vingan's likely believe that Orlanth is Vinga's animus. The other important part of this is all mythology is true even if contradictory. I might even have an audio tape of Greg talking about this somewhere.

[soltakss]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:41 AM, Gallowglass said:

Lodril subcult makes sense, especially in Kostaddi. But because Gerendetho doesn’t have any association with the Fire rune, I still feel the need to come up with a whole bunch of different spells for him. Looking at the RQ2 Lodril, almost all of his spells involve fire, including his spear-related one. Not sure how the new Lodril is going to look in GaGoG though. 

Also, I prefer Gerendetho as a son of Lodril in my Glorantha, rather than the big man himself. In general whenever I’m presented  with two similar gods, I tend to interpret them as separate beings. More interesting that way, for me at least. Lodril is often the exception however, cuz that guy gets around.

There is confusion between Subcults and Deities, I think.

A separate Deity could be worshipped in a SubCult of a larger deity and also have a separate Cult.

So, all local Lodril Temples would have a Shrine, or even Small Temple, to Gerendetho, that would grant some spells, but the particular Holy Places may well have a Temple to Gerendetho with a SubCult of Lodril the Father as a Shrine or Small temple within the main Temple.

I think that Lodril expresses his control of the Earth through his Children or different Aspects.

Also, each Aspect of Lodril has its own sphere of influence, so, Lodril Sky Spear would be different to Lodril the Volcano or Lodril the Husband. Monster Man is a different Aspect of Lodril that has no Heat powers at all, but is the collective spirits of Peasants rising up against oppressors and wicked Emperors.

[soltakss]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I think the change ruins her stories.  If Vinga is Orlanth, why did she have problems proving herself in contests with the other Storm Brothers?  Somehow the King of the Gods always came in second?  Just fooling?  “I know something you don't know. I am not left-handed."

It's Mythology. Vinga was seen as the Daughter of Orlanth, but proved herself to be the Equal of Orlanth, or Orlanth, after many trials.

When Orlanth went to the Underworld on the Lightbringers' Quest, he left behind a portion of himself, as Vinga, to protect those he had abandoned, so that he, in fact, did not abandon them.

[davecake]

On 11/20/2019 at 12:04 AM, David Scott said:

Basically Waha & Eiritha become diminished as their mythology in no longer local, but the core of their society remains the same (the twin stars). I looked at what local gods might supplant Waha & Eirtha on the plateau and came up with:

Got to say I’m surprised at this take, David. I think the core of Sable society has never been the Twin Stars as such (they are important, but nowhere near as important as Waha and Eiritha in Prax), but is Sables, and therefore Eiritha - The Paps in Prax is certainly her centre of power, but everywhere her beasts are herded she is worshipped. So I see Eiritha still the main women’s god of the HPS admittedly without most of the fascinating collection of allied cults as she does at the Paps. 
I do see that they would probably have Waha as a less central role, though still acknowledged. 

[Joerg]

23 hours ago, davecake said:

Got to say I’m surprised at this take, David. I think the core of Sable society has never been the Twin Stars as such (they are important, but nowhere near as important as Waha and Eiritha in Prax), but is Sables, and therefore Eiritha - The Paps in Prax is certainly her centre of power, but everywhere her beasts are herded she is worshipped. So I see Eiritha still the main women’s god of the HPS admittedly without most of the fascinating collection of allied cults as she does at the Paps. 
I do see that they would probably have Waha as a less central role, though still acknowledged. 

While they are one of the five Greater Tribes, the Sables are quite different from the other four tribes (all of which have Founders who are sons of Storm Bull). This makes their Waha khans weak enough to have the queens (chief priestesses of Eiritha) of the (originally 7?) phratries get a whole lot more say in policy and everyday rule than in any other of the Great Tribes. (To be honest, I am not quite that certain about the Morokanth, but this goes for High Llama, Bison and Impala.)

Yet the Sable Queen of the Kostaddi phratry flipped on her alliance with Jannisor on the cusp of triumphal success against the Lunars after a "revelation" by one of the Twin Stars (in female guise, unlike in the tribal myths).

 

 

Who exactly is responsible for calling forth the Founder in a Praxian tribe? What form of descent must the officiating priest (khan) have from the Founder?

If the Waha Khan performs the rite, then no descendant in direct male lineage is required, as there is no way that a Waha Khan can be descended from the Founder in the male line - he has to be descended from Waha instead.

 

[David Scott]

On 11/24/2019 at 12:33 PM, davecake said:

Got to say I’m surprised at this take, David. I think the core of Sable society has never been the Twin Stars as such (they are important, but nowhere near as important as Waha and Eiritha in Prax)

The core of the Sables is different to the other major tribes who have Storm Bull as the father of the founder and explains why there are so few Storm Bulls amongst the Sables (see Cults of Prax Appendix C. Page 110 - Classic version) - None. There are actually a few.

This is v3 of this genealogy, there's a misplaced v4 with minor changes...

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Who exactly is responsible for calling forth the Founder in a Praxian tribe?

The Tribal Khan

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

What form of descent must the officiating priest (khan) have from the Founder?

All Khans must prove descent from Waha when they become a khan.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

If the Waha Khan performs the rite, then no descendant in direct male lineage is required, as there is no way that a Waha Khan can be descended from the Founder in the male line - he has to be descended from Waha instead.

The Khan can be from the ancestors of the people and so has descent on both sides. 

[Jeff]

On 11/22/2019 at 8:56 PM, soltakss said:

It's Mythology. Vinga was seen as the Daughter of Orlanth, but proved herself to be the Equal of Orlanth, or Orlanth, after many trials.

When Orlanth went to the Underworld on the Lightbringers' Quest, he left behind a portion of himself, as Vinga, to protect those he had abandoned, so that he, in fact, did not abandon them.

Could also be that when Greg and I started playing around with Vinga circa 2010 Greg *really* didn't like the version presented in Storm Tribe. We also really didn't like the Lugh Samildanach rip-off presented in Storm Tribe. We bounced around what she was, and concluded that she is a female incarnation of Orlanth. She is the Shakti of Orlanth, like Maheshvari is that of Shiva, and Vashnavi is that of Vishnu. She manifests the power of Orlanth but in divine feminine form. 

There's probably other subcults like that with other Storm Gods, but I think Vinga is the only one that really took off. 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

The core of the Sables is different to the other major tribes who have Storm Bull as the father of the founder and explains why there are so few Storm Bulls amongst the Sables (see Cults of Prax Appendix C. Page 110 - Classic version) - None. There are actually a few.

Did the old Cults of Prax distribution describe all the Sable phratries, or just those at large in Prax at the time?

According to your genealogy, there are no descendants of the twin founders by the male line among the Sable Riders (or their herds). Is that intentional?

It also places Waha as an ancestor in the Golden Age, where he definitely doesn't belong - he was born from the encounters with  Death (Eiritha hiding, Storm Bull receiving the instant resurrection by sacrificing the Dead Place instead). As such, there is no way that your genealogy stands up to questing.

Oh, and are there Waha lineages among the herd beasts? Their encounter with Waha obviously predates the Covenant lottery, giving him plenty of opportunity to sire sons on both halves of the tribes (and the Morokanth are proof that he did).

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Khan can be from the ancestors of the people and so has descent on both sides. 

There is the actual possibility that a magically powerful person born to the khan and a female slave from another tribe might rise to the position of the khan, giving that person no (recent) ancestry in that tribe at all.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Did the old Cults of Prax distribution describe all the Sable phratries, or just those at large in Prax at the time?

No idea, considering when it was written everything was still a bit fluid. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

According to your genealogy, there are no descendants of the twin founders by the male line among the Sable Riders (or their herds). Is that intentional?

The outline for this is in Cults of Prax  Page 31, Eirithan Genealogy - (the classic version has the same content but a different layout)

Yes and no, there's no reason that there should be sons, they're just not important in the mythology. However it's a good story hook if needed.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It also places Waha as an ancestor in the Golden Age, where he definitely doesn't belong - he was born from the encounters with  Death (Eiritha hiding, Storm Bull receiving the instant resurrection by sacrificing the Dead Place instead). As such, there is no way that your genealogy stands up to questing.

It says in the barbarian gods intro in Cults of Prax:

Quote

 

Eiritha was known to the plains even before the Darkness, but worship of her could not begin until Waha liberated her daughters to mingle with the affairs of men. Then the women of the tribe learned the magic of the goddess’ cult from the temple at the Pap’s, and carried the secrets back to the tribes with them. Since then the priestesses have been caretakers and aids to the animals, helping them find food and health.

Thus they lived when the sun rose and Time began, and so they continued to live.

 

So this happened just before the Dawn.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There is the actual possibility that a magically powerful person born to the khan and a female slave from another tribe might rise to the position of the khan, giving that person no (recent) ancestry in that tribe at all.

Always been the case:

Quote

Khans do not have to have come from the noble families. All must be men, Initiates who have proved themselves, and not be proved murders, robbers, or cowards.

Shamans:

Quote

Membership in the priesthood requires that a person be an Initiate of noble descent from Waha. This may be thin, coming from some long-dead ancestor, but must be present. Tribal orators will know if a candidate is faking his genealogy.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

Could also be that when Greg and I started playing around with Vinga circa 2010 Greg *really* didn't like the version presented in Storm Tribe. We also really didn't like the Lugh Samildanach rip-off presented in Storm Tribe. We bounced around what she was, and concluded that she is a female incarnation of Orlanth. She is the Shakti of Orlanth, like Maheshvari is that of Shiva, and Vashnavi is that of Vishnu. She manifests the power of Orlanth but in divine feminine form. 

There's probably other subcults like that with other Storm Gods, but I think Vinga is the only one that really took off. 

Sorry for creating an aside, but is this particular view also extended to the other main gender non-conforming deity, Nanda? Is he the male manifestation of Ernalda?

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Sorry for creating an aside, but is this particular view also extended to the other main gender non-conforming deity, Nanda? Is he the male manifestation of Ernalda?

I would assume yes, as they are exactly parallel

[Sir_Godspeed]

13 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I would assume yes, as they are exactly parallel

I would too, but you never know.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed