Gerendetho Cult

[Qizilbashwoman]

57 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I would too, but you never know.

It's good to raise the question, but if @Jeff and Greg had feminist feels about the Vinga narrative in 2010 then surely they would about Nandan and it's good to poke Jeff with a thorn to remind him. Glorantha was always a feminist project even if it or its participants were not perfect (see also: Thed)

[Sir_Godspeed]

34 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I don't see Vinga and Nandan as parallel at all.  Vingans are explicitly "hetero", enjoy sex with the opposite sex, i.e. men, and can, eventually, bear children.  By my reading Nandans don't. (???)

While Vinga herself did get pregnant, I've never seen any particular idea about vingans in general being associated with any particular sexual orientation, and same for nandans, though I could be wrong. 

Their identity seems far more associated with gender performance. In short, vingans perform masculine societal roles as a general rule, including mythic/ritual ones (and mundane labour). Likewise, nandans generally perform feminine social roles.

This might warrant its own thread, I don't want to drag this topic too far in a thread with another, specific topic.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

While Vinga herself did get pregnant, I've never seen any particular idea about vingans in general being associated with any particular sexual orientation, and same for nandans, though I could be wrong.

It has been clear in recent books that ascribing modern notions of both gender and sexuality to Glorantha is a Bad Idea. First of all, Vinga is Orlanth, which means She is one of Ernalda's many husbands. Second, Vinga's narratives make it really clear that a ritual arrangement had to be made with the birthing goddesses when Vinga got pregnant (I blame Heler) because Vinga *isn't a woman and therefore can't give birth"

Heterosexual is not the kind of word we should apply to this situation as it is entirely inapt and inappropriate, just as it's inappropriate to call Catullus "gay". In Roman society, someone who was a sexual deviant engaged in oral sex with a woman; it was 100% virile to be the one sticking it in and being a bottom was ok given the correct male partner.

[Tindalos]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@Sir_GodspeedMany Vingans were / are married and are avenging husbands or children.  Also, Storm Tribe, p170, Life After Death, "They may ... visit any of the Thunder Brothers when they want to enjoy the company of men".  So they seem primarily "cis / hetero", though obviously there are exceptions.

Nandans (page 224) are "women who are born in the shape of men".  Sounds "trans / homo".

Apologies if I have messed up any terminology.

No longer a useful source I'm afraid.

Much better is to look at RuneQuest Glorantha, where vingan and nandan are separate genders and elsewhere summed up as "females in male roles" and "males in female roles."

Admittedly I find that a slightly unsatisfying description, as gender and sex seem separate, and how these interact isn't necessarily described. Are all vingans biologically female? But this is a huge thorny issue, and the Orlanthi aren't exactly paragons of understanding, so I can understand it not being delved into.

[Qizilbashwoman]

17 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

First you should return the purchase price of anybody who bought Storm Tribe.

Storm Tribe is listed as being out of date right in the catalogue on Chaosium. That's what "in the Vault" means.

And it was Greg Stafford who made the changes!

Times change and books written in the past get dated. Things get updated. It happens. For heaven's sake, Dungeons & Dragons is on its 5th official edition. Greg thought Vinga's origin was old and not very good and updated it - in 2010. That's a decade ago.

And for the record you still aren't using "heterosexual" properly.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Storm Tribe is listed as being out of date right in the catalogue on Chaosium. That's what "in the Vault" means.

And it was Greg Stafford who made the changes!

Times change and books written in the past get dated. Things get updated. It happens. For heaven's sake, Dungeons & Dragons is on its 5th official edition. Greg thought Vinga's origin was old and not very good and updated it - in 2010. That's a decade ago.

And for the record you still aren't using "heterosexual" properly.

In Cults of Glorantha, Nandan is a subcult of Ernalda. Here's the short description:
 

NANDAN

This daughter of Ernalda was born with a male form. She enables women who are biologically male to give birth and thus be eligible to become priestesses. She provides Pregnancy.

[Tindalos]

30 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Secondly, up I don't want my character concept completely turned around based on changes in dogma.  Please reimburse me for the hours I have spent trying out RQG.  Stop effing changing everything.

1: Just because the old rulebooks aren't accurate doesn't mean they still can't be used. Anaxial's Roster's still one of my favourite Glorantha books and always will be. Thunder Rebels can still be used, it's just not as authoritative as RuneQuest Glorantha.

2: What's in the rulebook doesn't matter as much as what's at the table. You and your GM can agree on something that's different, or the same as an older piece of material, and that's great. I imagine very few games will have everything be exactly the same as in the rulebook as various things come up and GMs and players go "actually, that sounds good, let's go with that."

3: Depending on the interpretation of the sidebar on page 81, I'd say it's perfectly allowable to have biologically female, female gendered vingans as well as biologically female vingan vingans. Or biologically female helering vingans. Etc. (In My Glorantha, this would certainly be the case, and see point 2.) And of course this has no bearing on sexuality, as plenty of vingans will love men, plenty will love women, plenty will love both.

[Jeff]

Just now, Tindalos said:

3: Depending on the interpretation of the sidebar on page 81, I'd say it's perfectly allowable to have biologically female, female gendered vingans as well as biologically female vingan vingans. Or biologically female helering vingans. Etc. (In My Glorantha, this would certainly be the case, and see point 2.) And of course this has no bearing on sexuality, as plenty of vingans will love men, plenty will love women, plenty will love both.

That's my view as well. 

[Jeff]

I'd like to confine this thread to discussions of Gerendetho and other Lodril cults. If someone wants to talk about Vinga, Nandan, etc., please create a new thread.

[Tindalos]

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Just to clarify for my future reference, by "Cults of Glorantha" do you mean the ancient Avalon Hill book?  It should take priority over Storm Tribe?  (They directly contradict here...)

The forthcoming one.

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Just to clarify for my future reference, by "Cults of Glorantha" do you mean the ancient Avalon Hill book?  It should take priority over Storm Tribe?  (They directly contradict here...)

I mean the gigantic two-volume long version of over 100 cults that is in art production. 

[jongjom]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I mean the gigantic two-volume long version of over 100 cults that is in art production. 

There is something I like a lot about that line.

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I can hardly be expected to discuss a book which I am unable (yet) to read. 🙂

 

 

No, but to make the discussion somewhat grounded, Jeff provided the entry of the forthcoming book, so that we know where things are going, and we know what to expect/consider.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, Tindalos said:

1: Just because the old rulebooks aren't accurate doesn't mean they still can't be used. Anaxial's Roster's still one of my favourite Glorantha books and always will be. Thunder Rebels can still be used, it's just not as authoritative as RuneQuest Glorantha.

 

Very nice, accepting to all points of view, not retaliatory.Well done Tindalos. That was nice.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Is there a link to this somewhere?  Thanks.

If there is to be criticism for breaking canon at any point in any forum we will need a pinned Topic on what is canonical! Nor should we hyperventilate when canon is broken (in fact I will be mocking the canon cult often, just ’til it bends, sorry in advance) just send the horrible monster (err malinformed citizen of the community) to the enlightening sections and Bob is yer mother.

Cheers

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Is there a link to this somewhere?  Thanks.

... it's not out yet?

[Bill the barbarian]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

I'd like to confine this thread to discussions of Gerendetho and other Lodril cults. If someone wants to talk about Vinga, Nandan, etc., please create a new thread.

Done, go to "the canon cult" in the tavern, or start a new one if this does’t tickle yer fancy.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Sir_Godspeed]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

In Cults of Glorantha, Nandan is a subcult of Ernalda. Here's the short description:
 

NANDAN

This daughter of Ernalda was born with a male form. She enables women who are biologically male to give birth and thus be eligible to become priestesses. She provides Pregnancy.

 

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Is there a link to this somewhere?  Thanks.

What Jeff posted above is directly from the book's script, as far as I gather. No link needed. The book will be out when it's out, no date is yet known.

[davecake]

Glorious as the new cults book will be (I’m one of the lucky few who has a preview), it can’t be everything. In general, Gloranthan cults are not strongly centrally coordinated. Individual temples have local traditions, leaders have weird opinions, heroquests and such revitalise old myths, different sub-cults and hero cults have varying  importance, and so on. Your temple is probably different. Or maybe you are the to change it ( for example the way they Eleven Lights bring back ancient gods). And some of the old and out of date books, especially old myths, might be how it happens. The cults book will give you the current, standard, ‘correct’ version. The world has variations, diversity - even heresy. If your game wants to ignore it, grab the cults book, and it’s all you need. If you like your Glorantha a little messier, you have plenty of fuel. If there are disagreements about Vinga, Lodril, etc - I like that to mean that there disagreements in Glorantha too.