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Personalities of the Fire, Light and Heat Runes

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On 11/18/2019 at 11:39 AM, None said:

Greeings, this is my first post. You may salute it. Or if you prefer something less onerous. Hi. Nice to meet you.

First posts are always the hardest, so congratulations on taking that first step. 

On 11/18/2019 at 11:39 AM, None said:

I find the idea of having all the different runes affect or represent different parts of a characters personality interesting and especially so with the elemental runes as they seem to create the greatest base difference between the (human) culture groups of glorantha. Even when they're not clustered together cultures with the same elemental rune seem to have, or at least I assume they do, core similarities seeing as every human has one, and only one, and elemental runes are to my understanding something you're very likely to inherit.

I use them as Guidelines. Not every death follower is going to be a dour warrior, not every earth woman is going to be a fertile earth mother.

On 11/18/2019 at 11:39 AM, None said:

That said out of all the elemental runes the sky/fire rune have the vauguest and fewest personality traits numbering only two.

Loyalty - yes sure I understand that, but Purity? What's that even suposed to mean?

On top of that I've found no mention of the lesser elemental runes like light or heat, or cold for the darkness rune. Something I'd find very interesting to know seeing as they are only part of their original runes so their personalities should be slanted somewhat differently.

Looking back at the Separation of the World, Dayzatar is given the Sky Realm, Lodril the Surface World and Yelm the Underworld, but Yelm complains and is given the Surface World and Lodril is given the Underworld.

This means that Dayzatar (Light) is Aloof and Pure, untouched by the dirt of the Surface World or Underworld, Yelm (Fire) is also Pure, having rejected the Underworld, but Lodril is earthy and, to a certain extent, scary, because he rejoices in accepting that which his brothers cannot. Interestingly enough, Yelm goes to the Underworld when he dies and Lodril comes to the Surface World lots of times, so their original designations had some effect.

I can't remember the list of Personality Traits, if there is such a list.

The sub-runes are interesting.

  • Dust is Earth without Fertility and is dry, sterile, dead.
  • Shadow is Darkness without Cold and contains the terrifying parts of Darkness.
  • Cold is Darkness without Shadow and is cold, heartless, unforgiving.
  • Light is Fire/Sky without Heat and is pure, radiant and brilliant.
  • Heat is Fire/Sky without Light and is sensual, and nurturing.
  • Ice is a combination of Water and Cold, so is hard and cold.
On 11/18/2019 at 11:39 AM, None said:

Another thing tha's sorely lacking because of the limited mention of how elemental sub runes impact the personalities of pelorian women. That is the female elemental rune of Peloria, right? Or is that only Dara Happa? There is plenty of information on how the storm and earth rune affect orlanthi men and women and some relating to how the sky/fire rune affect pelorian men but nothing about pelorian women and the light rune. (The only thing I've managed to gather is that the sky/fire rune abd the earth rune don't mix easily but that's neither here nor there.)

Dara Happan women have the Earth Rune, after oria and Dendara, I think.

Lunar women have the Moon, after the Red Goddess, for who would be a better role model for women than Her?

Light for women might work, but that is probably noblewomen. Peasant women follow Oria, or the Heron Goddess, in the same way that peasant men follow Lodril. They would have Earth and Heat and are a randy, hedonistic bunch, very different to the aloof and pure nobility.

On 11/18/2019 at 11:39 AM, None said:

(If anyone want to discuss the personalities of other runes feel free just don't detract too far from the main topic at first, please. The other runes aren't my main interest right now. Although I'd like to know if the earth, storm and water runes have sub runes of their own.)

Earth has Dust, but I can't remember the purely fertile part of Earth, which would be the counter to Dust, if there is even such a rune.

Air/Storm might have Air and Storm, but they are generally seen together. so, Brastalos and Mollani might be Air Goddesses rather than Storm Goddesses and Storm Bull or Gagarth might be Storm Gods rather than Air Gods, but the runes are not normally split.

Water does not normally have a sub Rune, I think, but some claim that Ice is a sub-rune of Water.

 

There are a lot of pet theories on the rest of the Thread, so I'm not going to go through all of them. Some I agree with, some I don't, but it would be opinions vs opinions and that never ends well.

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26 minutes ago, soltakss said:
On 11/18/2019 at 5:39 AM, None said:

Another thing tha's sorely lacking because of the limited mention of how elemental sub runes impact the personalities of pelorian women. That is the female elemental rune of Peloria, right? Or is that only Dara Happa? There is plenty of information on how the storm and earth rune affect orlanthi men and women and some relating to how the sky/fire rune affect pelorian men but nothing about pelorian women and the light rune. (The only thing I've managed to gather is that the sky/fire rune abd the earth rune don't mix easily but that's neither here nor there.)

Dara Happan women have the Earth Rune, after oria and Dendara, I think.

Lunar women have the Moon, after the Red Goddess, for who would be a better role model for women than Her?

Light for women might work, but that is probably noblewomen. Peasant women follow Oria, or the Heron Goddess, in the same way that peasant men follow Lodril. They would have Earth and Heat and are a randy, hedonistic bunch, very different to the aloof and pure nobility.

Part of that's tricky here is Peloria has distinct culture groups within it to a greater degree than Sartar & Tarsh do.  I would expect proper Dar Happan women to mostly have Light as their element, with significant minorities having Earth or Water. I would similarly expect Lodrili women to favor Earth and Weeder women to favor Water. 

Any of the above can of course swap out their born element for a Moon phase through being kindled in the Lunar Way.

I expect that the Lunar option is especially appealing for those women who are not born with their culture-group's main goddess's element (though no Moon phase corresponds to Water, interestingly). I wonder if initiating to Dendara involves young ladies with Sky/Fire giving up their Heat, purifying themselves in order to embody the serene austerity of Light. You can see where Teelo Norri or Irippi Ontor might be appealing so some such women. (Does Hwarin have a specific phase to her Moon rune?) 

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On 11/21/2019 at 11:46 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Plentonius' narrative of the God's Wall identifies the wife of Erlandus (Orlanth) as Erlanda, Mother of Kings.

Also the Glorious ReAscent says it was Muharzam as Yelm slain by Erlandus with Terminatus, while Fortunate Succession says it was Muharzam who was killed and it made Yelm sad. (GR also says Entekos was Umath's name and was taken by his daughter.)

I'm familiar with those, but as far as I recall, none of the explicitly say "and then the Rebel took off with the Earth Queen". Erlanda is the mother of kings, but she is also a perverted lecherous goddess that the pantheon rejects, so not even on the level of Oria, who is after all a good (albeit "commoner") wife.

I want to add that I don't favor an Earth-Dendara, but I'm saying that if such a thing comes out of in published material, Ernalda appears to be the closest analogue. 

7 hours ago, JonL said:

The Dara Happans know no sovereign power but Sky, but they know the others - even as they hold them subservient/inferior. Oria & Oslira both have a place in the Emperor's ordered world (though the latter sometimes must be forcibly reminded of hers), but are fit only for the lesser peoples (Lodrili, Weeders, etc) to worship.

Orlanthi mythology in general makes a lot out of elemental natures, in part I suspect, because they are explicitly a group formed by outsiders from different groups coming together. Umath's origin is that of mixing, Orlanth's power is that of joining and adopting. Lots of "X elemental tribe" running about in their stories.

Dara Happa is to a much larger degree a story of Order, Justice, Authority and Rebellion.

Obviously elements occur in Dara Happan mythology, and tyranny and rebellion in Orlanthi, but in terms of a classificatory terminology they lean to different sides.
 

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18 hours ago, JonL said:

The Orlanthi certainly believe that their gods are the best, sure. Who doesn't?

The Dara Happans don't place high value in Earth, they consider it beneath them. It's for Lodril & his people to be soiled with its dirty work and fecund drives, so to speak. From the DH perspective, that the Southern barbarians crow about their Rebel God's union with the Earth is just another sign of their uncouth nature. 

This is another reason why Dendara as an Earth Queen doesn't make much sense, in my view.    

Gorgorma appears in the Wedding Contest, as do Oria and Dendara (duh, she won it), but there are others, too. Galgarenge is a celestial candidate, as is UlEria.

But IMO all of them have in common the property "Fuel" rather than "Flame" in that Dara Happan dichotomy. Unlike his sire Aether, Yelm requires Fuel to procreate, or perhaps like his sire Aether ever after the conception and birth of Umath. Which coincidentally or probably marks the birth of Entekos (as an element, and likely as a celestial body, too.)

18 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I'm not even convinced they historically acknowledge Earth or any elemental power beyond the children of Aether.  No sovereign Earth, no Earth Queen position.

Dara Happan sovereignty appears to emerge from the orbs above their towers, creating a tesselation of the land where the borders overlap. The Silver Shadow satrapy is defined that way, too, overruling (and possibly overshadowing) the weaker urban orbs of the Tripolis.

18 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I do wonder when they forgot or suppressed that Dendara's forced "happy face" is actually an alternative D rune. The smile is later desperate apologetics.

D rune?

 

17 hours ago, JonL said:

The Dara Happans know no sovereign power but Sky, but they know the others - even as they hold them subservient/inferior. Oria & Oslira both have a place in the Emperor's ordered world (though the latter sometimes must be forcibly reminded of hers), but are fit only for the lesser peoples (Lodrili, Weeders, etc) to worship.

 

13 hours ago, JonL said:

Part of that's tricky here is Peloria has distinct culture groups within it to a greater degree than Sartar & Tarsh do.  I would expect proper Dar Happan women to mostly have Light as their element, with significant minorities having Earth or Water. I would similarly expect Lodrili women to favor Earth and Weeder women to favor Water.

The majority of Dara Happan women are Lodrili women. Weeders and (greater) Suvarians may indeed be inclined to worship water as much as earth, but then the Empire has fought the river deities or cults in the past as a retaliation for a rebellion or three.

13 hours ago, JonL said:

Any of the above can of course swap out their born element for a Moon phase through being kindled in the Lunar Way.

With moon being an unisex religion...

13 hours ago, JonL said:

I expect that the Lunar option is especially appealing for those women who are not born with their culture-group's main goddess's element (though no Moon phase corresponds to Water, interestingly). I wonder if initiating to Dendara involves young ladies with Sky/Fire giving up their Heat, purifying themselves in order to embody the serene austerity of Light.

I see this as a "Let me be Fuel to thy Flame" approach, but yes - their initiation might be accompanied by a levitation experience.

13 hours ago, JonL said:

You can see where Teelo Norri or Irippi Ontor might be appealing so some such women. 

Don't forget Deezola! As a female ruler, that course might deter future husbands, though. (Which may be a bonus feature for young women making that choice...

13 hours ago, JonL said:

(Does Hwarin have a specific phase to her Moon rune?) 

I don't think so. The Seven Moms have been assigned phases in the past, as have the Imperial Colleges, but neither Glamour, Hwarin, Hon-eel or Jar-eel have been limited that way. Nor has Etyries, despite being subject to the cycles.

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm familiar with those, but as far as I recall, none of the explicitly say "and then the Rebel took off with the Earth Queen". Erlanda is the mother of kings, but she is also a perverted lecherous goddess that the pantheon rejects, so not even on the level of Oria, who is after all a good (albeit "commoner") wife.

Esvenratha of the many husbands?

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I want to add that I don't favor an Earth-Dendara, but I'm saying that if such a thing comes out of in published material, Ernalda appears to be the closest analogue. 

Ernalda does appear preferable to Molanni (the other possible identification of Entekos, and a known wife of the Sun Emperor).

The Theyalans appear to be blissfully unaware of Dendara - they (or the God Learners using Theyalan star lore as their source) name that planetary body "Moskalf", without giving much of a myth, if any.

Praxian star lore had the cold sun as a female spirit/deity. (The prohibition against dressing in women's clothing might be addressing a suppression of this older cult in Praxian Sun Dome County.)

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Orlanthi mythology in general makes a lot out of elemental natures, in part I suspect, because they are explicitly a group formed by outsiders from different groups coming together. Umath's origin is that of mixing, Orlanth's power is that of joining and adopting. Lots of "X elemental tribe" running about in their stories.

At the same time, the concept isn't consequential, as by a naive application of that principle the Praxians are Storm people, too, by virtue of their Storm Bull ancestry. Hardly anybody seems to think so about the Praxians in general, although the Bison tribe with its tribal Storm affinity fits that bill very well.

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Dara Happa is to a much larger degree a story of Order, Justice, Authority and Rebellion.

Obviously elements occur in Dara Happan mythology, and tyranny and rebellion in Orlanthi, but in terms of a classificatory terminology they lean to different sides.

Justice and rebellion are main plots in Orlanth's myths, too, but the results are drastically different. Orlanth's descent from his throne is mere (self-imposed) exile.

Orlanthi history is full of Traditionalists (Stasis!) maintaining the Orlanthi way against the new (Change!) ways of the insight of the Age (be it the God Project and Illumination of the Second Council, the EWF mysticism or Meldek meddling in Orlanthland, or acceptance of the Goddess in Sylila and Saird or of Belintar in the south).

There is precedence to that in the Godtime myths of Orlanth. Maybe tied to the Urain stories about the evils of Orlanth's kingship.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Don't forget Deezola! As a female ruler, that course might deter future husbands, though. (Which may be a bonus feature for young women making that choice...

TN and IO are the Mothers whose runes replace Sky. I thought that's part of how the 7M cults work, but haven't looked at the details in a while.

(The Heartlands practices may differ from the provincial missionary orders in any case.)

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dara Happan sovereignty appears to emerge from the orbs above their towers, creating a tesselation of the land where the borders overlap. The Silver Shadow satrapy is defined that way, too, overruling (and possibly overshadowing) the weaker urban orbs of the Tripolis.

That's more or less what I always suspected, which is why hypotheses that depend on Dara Happa developing an independent five/six-element system, Dark at the beginning, Earth near the center and Storm/Moon at the end are worth reinterrogation. Dara Happa definitely recognizes that there's a body of fluid running through the landscape, dirt with plants in it, stuff we breath that isn't Sky and that it's hard to see at night. Maybe the centuries have brought them the idea that most of these phases of matter have powerful intelligences to be acknowledged via Young Elemental cults or other channels, sure. Their magicians have inherited parts of the Carmanian system that work. Are they motivated to squeeze all the ritual roles of those other elements (like a four-cornered Earth with Queen) into their pantheon? Maybe not so much. They don't have a Sea King because they are far from being a Sea People. The Wall has plenty of demons but is there room for a Hell Dark behind them? And while modern theologians can point somewhere and say that figure is the Rebel "Storm" the jerks down south follow, he sure isn't on the side of history as far as the urban elites are concerned. He might not even really be "Umatum" in all historically promulgated readings.

Anyway,

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

D rune?

Yeah. So I'm looking back at GRoY to refresh the sense of where the "Dendara" III.2 fits relative to other people who might be a suppressed or forgotten Pelandan "Earth Queen" type, and this time my eye lingers on the sarcastic "her smile shows her happiness" bit that reveals Plentonius' chauvinism with Greg's feminism shining through it. Okay. But why is she really "smiling?" Is that even a "smile" or the trace of some mystery buried in the Dendara wife complex? III.4 retains this iconographic cue also, and as we all know, Greg drew every truly important detail and every squiggle is of utmost importance to the reader trying to determine where Plentonius gets it wrong. 

smile.png.c4b26f6740b964a763c0bc77b557b3f8.png
as always there is a Kate Bush lyric here

Now separately I'm going back to the Dara Happan Sacred Alphabet to see which gods were important enough to the Esventhists to be considered "carver" (owner) of their initial letter. Not surprisingly, Dendara is not there because a dude whose name starts with "D" exists to horn in there. But there is a funny thing in the "Early Runes" table, which perversely Greg the trickster put first:

 

214250781_Drunes.png.97bbbae7c579b3e57022fb5964278a1d.png

 

Hello "happy face!" Dendara evidently got the "D" after all (Lacan would be so happy, also fans of a phallic Entekos), only in a provisional system that didn't get the right bureaucratic traction. There is, after all, a tradition of interchanging runes with heads on the Wall or incorporating a distinctive face into a rune (or vice versa) to make a symbolic point. The Planetary Sons have rune heads. Lodril's people have his earthy block as well. (See below.) The Star Group (I.23-5) and so on.

Might a less chauvinist observer believe III.2 is carrying not a "smile" but D-2 for a more self-assured Dendara? I want to believe. The smile is an ambivalent thing with Greg, if you don't know why Mona Lisa is grinning odds are good the ultimate joke is on you.

Now who else carries D-2 on the Wall? III.4, who is an interesting transitional figure more naturally associated with III.5 as "Naverians." This is a mythological rhyme because III.2 has her own daughter, III.3. Two mothers, two daughters. Two families. Although III.5 has two daughters of her own, one of whom is allowed to get dirty. All of the classical Dendara's children are perfect and everyone loves them by divine imperial decree.

Perhaps III.4 is both the daughter of III.5 and the person who grows into III.2. They have the same "smile." This would conceal mysteries of goddess succession and the domestication [sic] of the "Naverian" Oria complex that are not my primary concern. I just want to figure out why Mona Lisa "smiles."

And as god said when he stabled the horse with the donkey, maybe something valuable will drop out of this. The biggest "letter head" group supporting this hypothesis are also "D" people . . . the blockheaded Children of Lodril whose head is D-3. This form of the letter is interesting because Greg explicitly lists it as a weird "early rune" and yet there it is in the Esventhite / Khordavu alphabet as the way you'd better cut a "D" or the khor is going to get you.

blockheads.png.feddfc21801545034f4ccef97e0d4411.png
 

The carver of D-3 is of course Deshlotralas, whom Plentonius places down at IV.8, the third hell. It's a fraught move because, among other things, Esventheus gives this entity the terrestrial deity honorific and not the mark of a "demon." What classical theological dispute is preserved here? Furthermore, we know ownership of "D" is especially dubious in this era because (a) Greg lists what we now call the "Dayzatar" rune first in the Early list and the "Deshlotralas" letter third, behind "Dendara" (b) Dayzatar did not carve the letter that makes it to the official court alphabet, even leaving my historical obsession with "Z=Y" or "truth" out of it. Shargash gets a letter. Lodril gets a letter. Of course Yelm gets a letter. Dayzatar, despite receiving every formal honorific, gets passed over for a literal blockhead. 

As do all of the prominent star people. They are not too aloof for writing. They have runes but not letters. This preserves the ghost of at least one Tale that thankfully does not concern us here. 

It is also interesting that "Entekos," despite receiving pride of place at II.1, also has her own Early Rune yet does not make it into the Khordavu alphabet, instead being deliberately passed over for the otherwise enigmatic "Everinus" who may be either a forced misprint for III.17 (Enverinus) or an oddly regendered III.7 (Everin"a") or a separate entity now obscured. Like the Dayzatar figure on the wall, II.1 has no feet to better avoid the ground. Weirdly Ourania (I.24, see also Early Rune O-1) does. It's the howling Gamara (IV.18) who does not. Who are the fathers and daughters here?

Many gods were plowed under in the construction of the Dara Happan canon. Others were forced together from what we would consider historically remote antecedents. This much is clear. It's the details . . . the ghost grudges and mistakes, opportunities and missed connections . . . that feed a Hero War. Multiple vestigial alphabets on the Wall. And I know we were promised a Kate Bush lyric.

miranda.png.2b170cfc3ecead8a9b73820e86bf6adb.png

 

Edited by scott-martin
clarifying a word, so while we're here let's commemorate post 666
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On 11/22/2019 at 5:02 PM, JonL said:

It also walks all over the Dendara ≈ Entekos semi-connection. I can't see a reason to go that direction while Oria is sitting right over there.

Yes, that too.

On 11/22/2019 at 5:12 PM, JonL said:

The Orlanthi certainly believe that their gods are the best, sure. Who doesn't?

The Dara Happans don't place high value in Earth, they consider it beneath them. It's for Lodril & his people to be soiled with its dirty work and fecund drives, so to speak. From the DH perspective, that the Southern barbarians crow about their Rebel God's union with the Earth is just another sign of their uncouth nature. 

This is another reason why Dendara as an Earth Queen doesn't make much sense, in my view.    

And that is why her having the Light rune makes pefect sensae. She's the goddess of noble women (who're ptobably the only women to really count in civilized Dara Happa view, but that's another topic) and that she'd have a 'lesser' version of the Sky/Fire rune fits well with Dara Happa's patriarchal nature.

Anyway, I've been meaning to ask. Why is it that the solars consider Water as less pure than Earth?

Both douse flame but water cleans the body (better than sweat even) and lets through light (to an extent). Both things that earth is notoriously bad at doing.

 

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

First posts are always the hardest, so congratulations on taking that first step. 

Thank you.

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

The sub-runes are interesting.

  • Dust is Earth without Fertility and is dry, sterile, dead.
  • Shadow is Darkness without Cold and contains the terrifying parts of Darkness.
  • Cold is Darkness without Shadow and is cold, heartless, unforgiving.
  • Light is Fire/Sky without Heat and is pure, radiant and brilliant.
  • Heat is Fire/Sky without Light and is sensual, and nurturing.
  • Ice is a combination of Water and Cold, so is hard and cold.

I like this list, thanks (again).

 

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

Light for women might work, but that is probably noblewomen. Peasant women follow Oria, or the Heron Goddess, in the same way that peasant men follow Lodril. They would have Earth and Heat and are a randy, hedonistic bunch, very different to the aloof and pure nobility.

 

20 hours ago, JonL said:

Part of that's tricky here is Peloria has distinct culture groups within it to a greater degree than Sartar & Tarsh do.  I would expect proper Dar Happan women to mostly have Light as their element, with significant minorities having Earth or Water. I would similarly expect Lodrili women to favor Earth and Weeder women to favor Water. 

Yes, that sounds reasonable.

 

20 hours ago, JonL said:

I wonder if initiating to Dendara involves young ladies with Sky/Fire giving up their Heat, purifying themselves in order to embody the serene austerity of Light.

I've been wondereing ifits this or if Dara Happa women are naturally born with the Light rune instead of the Sky/Fire rune.

Having it be a ritual choice and action does give it a certain significance and sets those women apartfrom the rest though. I.e. it makes them seem special and gives the sense that they're somehow 'more ' than those who haven't purified themselves.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

see this as a "Let me be Fuel to thy Flame" approach, but yes - their initiation might be accompanied by a levitation experience.

I don't see how exactly Light equates to fuel, but ... No, I have to ask you to explain how you think.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Molanni

Molanni?

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Theyalans appear to be blissfully unaware of Dendara - they (or the God Learners using Theyalan star lore as their source) name that planetary body "Moskalf", without giving much of a myth, if any.

I find that ironic for some reason. (Not that I've ever used that word correctly.)

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanthi history is full of Traditionalists (Stasis!) maintaining the Orlanthi way against the new (Change!) ways of the insight of the Age (be it the God Project and Illumination of the Second Council, the EWF mysticism or Meldek meddling in Orlanthland, or acceptance of the Goddess in Sylila and Saird or of Belintar in the south).

I've allways found it ironic that the 'people of change' are repeatedly suspisious of new things (and that they as the 'people of freedom' appear very willing throw out anyone that doesn't do what the clan wants. With a bit of leeway given but only a bit, you can't be too annyoing to your neighbours).

 

edit: Despite it being a little insistent and feeling a little bit rude on my part I'm going to repeat this as a, I would very much like to hear about the patternsof Water and Darknmess civilizations (preferably ones that aren't trolls but those are welcome too) if anyone knows anything about them.

 

I think I've noticed that Solar civilizations tend to favour men, order and hierarchy.

While Storm civilizations seemto be more unorganized and prone to improvize, with a 'I do what I want' and a 'rule of the strong' and they seem largely unconcerned with gender as a thing in and of itself.

The Earth civilizations seem to favour subtlety, manipulation and women. Up to the point where they call in the Gorites and the blood begins to flow. Unlike Solar civilizations they also seem more likely to make their affiliates want to serve them or feel indepted instead of saying that it is their affiliates duty to serve and the right thing to do.

Edited by None
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1 hour ago, None said:

I don't see how exactly Light equates to fuel, but ... No, I have to ask you to explain how you think.

That's a Dara Happan dualistic philosophy that divides the world in flame and fuel, with flame being the purest, but pure fuel providing the purest flame, too.

Fuel may be a reason to give Dendara the Earth Rune.

She earns her Light Rune for her presence as a stellar body. Which she shares with Entekos, whose identity she shares (or vice versa, it's confusing and contradictory - look at Scott Martin's stuff about the D-Rune for how complicated things can get).

1 hour ago, None said:

Molanni?

Goddess of Still Air, traitor daughter of Vadrus and concubine of Yelm, to whom she bore Daga, god of drought.

The closest thing the Orlanthi know to a celestial goddess of still air (unlike Brastalos, who is not at all skyward, and is the/a wife of Magasta) and who they might identify with Entekos.

 

1 hour ago, None said:

I find that ironic for some reason. (Not that I've ever used that word correctly.)

Yes, it is at the very least quite weird to find such a difference in the interpretation of celestial bodies between these neighboring cultures who have assimilated one anothers celestial histories, but fail to agree on this point.

 

1 hour ago, None said:

I've allways found it ironic that the 'people of change' are repeatedly suspisious of new things (and that they as the 'people of freedom' appear very willing throw out anyone that doesn't do what the clan wants. With a bit of leeway given but only a bit, you can't be too annyoing to your neighbours).

You're far from alone  there.

 

1 hour ago, None said:

edit: Despite it being a little insistent and feeling a little bit rude on my part I'm going to repeat this as a, I would very much like to hear about the patternsof Water and Darknmess civilizations (preferably ones that aren't trolls but those are welcome too) if anyone knows anything about them.

That might be better off in threads of their own. Many of these are minor or even extinct at the end of the Third Age.

The Artmali sort of qualify for both criteria (as does their Blue Moon Goddess) but can also be filed under Lunar civilizations. Their ancestor is Lorion, aka Sky River Titan, the celestial River, and the Creek-Stream River via the Skyfall.

The Waertagi are the principal human (or at least mostly human) civilization of the seas. Descended from Malkion and a sea goddess related to the ancestresses of the Ludoch and Ouori.

There are riverine and lake variants of the Waertagi in Fronela and western Peloria who aren't easily recognized as such. They have blue rather than green skins.

The Helerings were a sea tribe with cloud ships when they started, but after some time as a major power on the western and central seas they faced off with the Vingkotlings, then became subsumed with the Orlanthi. Their descendants have a high proportion of river worshipers or fisherfolk, but their lineages may be intermingled in otherwise normal Orlanthi clans (like e.g. the Red Cow).

Another rival of both Helerings and Waertagi were the Banthites of the Storm Age. For a while, they occupied a peninsula of Brithos, but they were eventually annihilated.

The Diroti boat people come in various forms. One myth that connects Orlanth with them has them as (western) Sofali under attack from the Seabird Army. Orlanth aided Sofala, and she promised him a favor for this aid, which he collected when he needed transport to the Gates of Dusk. That tribe of Diroti was annihilated in a later attack.

The Pelaskites are a Diroti people, but without any evidence for a Sofali descent. They are Theyalans, and their cultural hero deity is a son of Orlanth. Sort of. They make up a good portion of the Holy Country population, with kin on the rivers, too. In Heortland they are similar to the Orlanthi there, in Esroiia they are a subculture with their own origin story but well integrated. On the Rightarm Isles, they are pretty much their own thing with friendship with the Newtlings and obedience to the Ludoch.

The Thinobutans are from a drownd home island, and two of their groups have retained some sea-going even through the Closing - the Masloi (who worship the tides, among other things) and the Thinokans who are just another minority enslaved by the Garangordites while retaining a good deal more of their ancestral identity than the blues of that land. They learned their seamanship from the mysterious Sendereven of the outermost East Isles, another people whose home islands sunk, and who usually only sail the outer seas of Glorantha.

Lake Felster has (or had) island states that are pretty much Water cultures.

 

Darkness humans include the semi-human Kitori of the Kingdom of Night, the sinister Spolites of Carmania, the Ignorants of Chen Durel north of Kralorela, the Alkothi of the Greater Darkness, Ethilrist's followers, quite a few Ralian troll-friends, half of the Pujaleg Bat Hsunchen, the Aramites of Dragon Pass, by God Learner definition the Esrolians of the Second Age - and that's about it, unless there are such Antigod-worshiping humans in the East.

Quite a few Chaos cults combine Chaos and Darkness, but that doesn't make many of them Darkness Humans. To start with, many of them are Chaos creatures.

 

1 hour ago, None said:

I think I've noticed that Solar civilizations tend to favour men, order and hierarchy.

Yes. The only female sun that wasn't a moon, too, was found in Prax. She is one form of Yelmalio now.

The White Queens of Peloria who predated Yelm Brightface worshiped White Sedenya - or at least that is what the Lunar mythographers and historians tell us when the Dara Happans don't listen in. Verithurusa/Jenedeus, Zaytenera - included in the Planetary Sons of Yelm in Dara Happan sources.

Jernotius/a/x as a celestial deity of (a precursor of) Illumination serves as another example of a celestial pantheon leader at least with a perspective for equal rites and alternating or indeterminate gender. But associated with patriarchal Idovanus.

1 hour ago, None said:

While Storm civilizations seemto be more unorganized and prone to improvize, with a 'I do what I want' and a 'rule of the strong' and they seem largely unconcerned with gender as a thing in and of itself.

They may value the individual over their attributes, and recognize the different contributions as equally valuable, even where they propose rather strict gender roles.

The Storm Pentans are as patriarchalic as their Solar brethren. The Praxians have rather strict gender separation, too, but with the Eiritha cult dictating quite a few aspects of the political and magical life, but their descent from Storm Bull makes them a rudimentary Storm civilization.

The Pelandan pre-history with the Dendara/Entekos myths prior to the Wedding Contest might be a form of antithetical Air culture, but that's amid Sky and Earth ancestry and influences.

1 hour ago, None said:

The Earth civilizations seem to favour subtlety, manipulation and women. Up to the point where they call in the Gorites and the blood begins to flow. Unlike Solar civilizations they also seem more likely to make their affiliates want to serve them or feel indepted instead of saying that it is their affiliates duty to serve and the right thing to do.

There are other earth worshipers with more patriarchalic elements. King Drona and his boar companion in Fronela, for instance. Any culture worshiping boars, really.

Elf- or dwarf-associated humans. Very different forms of Earth culture depending on their Elder Race and other circumstances.

Pamaltelans break the mold of "Earth civilization" while having all the trappings, and then some more. But then both Pamalt and Genert each have (or had) an entire elemental pantheon at their sides.

Prax is the post-apocalyptic remnant of an Earth civilization. So was Seshnela under the Pendali and the Serpent Kings.

Darsen in Peloria is the heir to an ancient Earth civlization, and the Land of Women. Edited out of the greater picture by Dara Happan prehistories, and returned into them with a vengeance by the Lunars. See also their White Queens, mentioned above, and very much in passing in the Entekosiad.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:
Quote

Molanni?

Goddess of Still Air, traitor daughter of Vadrus and concubine of Yelm, to whom she bore Daga, god of drought.

Also called the Bad Wind. Insert jokes here.

She is bad while Brastalos is good, even though Brastalos is also unmoving air, but in a good way.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The White Queens of Peloria who predated Yelm Brightface worshiped White Sedenya - or at least that is what the Lunar mythographers and historians tell us when the Dara Happans don't listen in. Verithurusa/Jenedeus, Zaytenera - included in the Planetary Sons of Yelm in Dara Happan sources.

Jernotius/a/x as a celestial deity of (a precursor of) Illumination serves as another example of a celestial pantheon leader at least with a perspective for equal rites and alternating or indeterminate gender. But associated with patriarchal Idovanus.

Jernotix as Light, hunh. I guess that is a good precursor to Illumination, ha! The Entekosiad story - I'm sorry, I can't remember which ethnic subsection it is - has them as the parent of the three Earth goddesses kept by Derdromus in the underworld freed by Turos, namely Oria, Dendara, and Gorgorma.

This ... argues for Dendara as Ernalda. Oria = Esrola and Gorgorma = Maran.

Idojartus "Fire Maker, Light Carrier" is Lightfore, son of Turos and Oria, but I don't know who Idovanus is. A scholar god? In the Great Ennead He is the God of Order and Idojartus doesn't appear at all. He is the god who tends the ersoon (temporary ritual altar) that is the Sun every day.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Also called the Bad Wind. Insert jokes here.

She is bad while Brastalos is good, even though Brastalos is also unmoving air, but in a good way.

I'd like to super clarify something here in case it's unclear: Molanni isn't Entekos, Serenha is. And despite the Entekosiad, there's absolutely no way Entekos is Dendara. It is a fantastic work ... but it's Lunar propaganda. It has all the facts - and then never makes its essential argument in the book. That's because there's no evidence they are the same. The evidence in the book is the opposite. I'm not 100% sure why our scholar wrote this, exactly, but she did.

Also, evidence from multiple books says Entekos is the eldest child of Umath, which we know is Serenha, and DH source even says that's why she's got a man's name: she inherited Umath's mantle and so the DHs just kept calling her by the same name.

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6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Jernotix as Light, hunh. I guess that is a good precursor to Illumination, ha! The Entekosiad story - I'm sorry, I can't remember which ethnic subsection it is - has them as the parent of the three Earth goddesses kept by Derdromus in the underworld freed by Turos, namely Oria, Dendara, and Gorgorma.

I said "celestial", and that includes all the deities in the palace from which the world is ruled.

Jernotia is that palace, in one aspect.

 

Quote

This ... argues for Dendara as Ernalda. Oria = Esrola and Gorgorma = Maran.

Just because there is a tripartite bunch of earth sisters, this doesn't mean that the partition has to go along the same lines as in Ezel. The usual equation is Gorgorma with Babeester, at least in function. And there is something about Dendara that reminds of Voria.

The inclusion of Esrola in the three sisters is a bit weird, as the parthenogenic born sisters number two above (Asrelia and TKT) and below (Voria and Babs). And then the Esrolians count six sisters...

 

Quote

Idojartus "Fire Maker, Light Carrier" is Lightfore, son of Turos and Oria, but I don't know who Idovanus is. A scholar god? In the Great Ennead He is the God of Order and Idojartus doesn't appear at all. He is the god who tends the ersoon (temporary ritual altar) that is the Sun every day.

He makes his first appearance in the Fortunate Succession. P. 86 tells the myth of his twin birth with Ganesatarus, the foundational myth for Carmanian dualism. Basically, he didn't need any explanation in Entekosiad because he already was well-defined.

 

Quote

I'd like to super clarify something here in case it's unclear: Molanni isn't Entekos, Serenha is. And despite the Entekosiad, there's absolutely no way Entekos is Dendara. It is a fantastic work ... but it's Lunar propaganda. It has all the facts - and then never makes its essential argument in the book. That's because there's no evidence they are the same. The evidence in the book is the opposite. I'm not 100% sure why our scholar wrote this, exactly, but she did.

Also, evidence from multiple books says Entekos is the eldest child of Umath, which we know is Serenha, and DH source even says that's why she's got a man's name: she inherited Umath's mantle and so the DHs just kept calling her by the same name.

Try pronouncing "Serenha" as if you're drunk. And think of cycles...

That short paragraph name-dropping her hasn't been written with the clearest mind, either. The last sentence claims that her daughters are her granddaughters.

Also - is it correct to think of her as is daughter, or is she his twin sister?

 

Anyway, this myth is hardly known to the Orlanthi, and they don't see it fit to apply it to the 31-day planet that was raised from below during the Godtime Sunstop that is mislabeled as Golden Age.

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4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Just because there is a tripartite bunch of earth sisters, this doesn't mean that the partition has to go along the same lines as in Ezel. The usual equation is Gorgorma with Babeester, at least in function. And there is something about Dendara that reminds of Voria.

Well, Asrelia and her sister Ty Kora Tek were emanations of Gata, except Asrelia is also Voria-Ernalda-Asrelia. I don't think you can ignore that weird little dance where as the old saw goes she's "maiden mother crone". The "Ernalda" generation is Ernalda, Maran and Esrola; Babeester Gor is born when She is dead, and She is not dead yet when this happens. The Great Darkness is yet to happen; this is still "are we people or gods" stuff.

Voria is always portrayed as a child, horrified by sex; we see in Greggish texts of this age Voria being described in Pelorian works as such. While I think the Celestials are a horrorshow, which is amplified by Nysalorean Illumination into wildly-gendered misanthropic abusive puritanism (hello, Yelmalions and Yelornans), I don't think this extends into child marriage.

I really do stand by Ernalda, Maran and Esrola. We know Oria is actually Esrola because the texts tell us; Maran does fit quite well as the warning vengeance in her emanation Maran Gor. I never thought of Gorgorma as Babeester Gor; that's interesting.

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Also - is it correct to think of her as is daughter, or is she his twin sister?

hm

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11 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Well, Asrelia and her sister Ty Kora Tek were emanations of Gata, except Asrelia is also Voria-Ernalda-Asrelia. I don't think you can ignore that weird little dance where as the old saw goes she's "maiden mother crone". The "Ernalda" generation is Ernalda, Maran and Esrola; Babeester Gor is born when She is dead, and She is not dead yet when this happens. The Great Darkness is yet to happen; this is still "are we people or gods" stuff.

I thought of that, too, but look at the setting - being captured by Derdromus means that you are in the Underworld. In other words, as dead as you can get given the period.

 

11 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Voria is always portrayed as a child, horrified by sex; we see in Greggish texts of this age Voria being described in Pelorian works as such. While I think the Celestials are a horrorshow, which is amplified by Nysalorean Illumination into wildly-gendered misanthropic abusive puritanism (hello, Yelmalions and Yelornans), I don't think this extends into child marriage.

Well, child marriage (the vows, not the consummation) is evidently what happens between Argrath and Inkarne in 1634. In 1490, the infant king Pyjeemsab had his fling with Hon-eel.

It is possible that Dendara is the goddess of virgin births with certified paternity. A continuation of Voria. (And a heck of a burden to sex-ed.)

The good points of Dendara are her innocence and her purity. Neither have anything to do with Ernalda.

11 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I really do stand by Ernalda, Maran and Esrola. We know Oria is actually Esrola because the texts tell us; Maran does fit quite well as the warning vengeance in her emanation Maran Gor. I never thought of Gorgorma as Babeester Gor; that's interesting.

The function is basically the same, although Gorgorma obviously doesn't operate from virginity.

Also - Gorgorma isn't a mother (or wasn't until Takenegi tricked her to beget Yara Aranis), but Maran is, for all her Dark Earth characteristics.

 

Dendara is the Emperor's Wife.

What imperial wives do we know?

Other than Dendara, we know that Murharzarm must have had at least one wife (or lots of concubines) as he sired three or more male lineages that resulted in later emperors.

Named wives include Herustana, who tricked Anaxial into sleeping before his term, and Gerra, the result of that trick, and the carrier of all the heritage that the flood supposedly was purposed to quench, as wife of the moon-slayer Lukarius, and ironically inheriting the moon powers.

And that's about it until we get to the daughter of Nralar the Avenger unifying the Dara Happan and Carmanian highest nobility.

11 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

hm

The twin sister gets this reaction, the name Sedenya doesn't?

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14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes. The only female sun that wasn't a moon, too, was found in Prax. She is one form of Yelmalio now.

There's maybe also Galana/Galanin the Sun Horse, whom seems to be Ralios' Little Sun/Kargzanti figure for the Enerali, the region where Yelorna originated, though there seems to be a disagreement there within the Enerali about the Sun Horse's gender with Utoni worshipping the male Galanin, and the Vustri worshipping the female Galana if we accept Greg's Safelster in the First Age work on top of the Guide. https://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/

While the Utoni or as they are more modernly called the Galanini worship the male Galanin, they're also the only matrilineal rulers (perhaps even matriarchal?) among the Enerali seemingly as far back as the Guide puts it "ancient times" (Lartuli Description) (Godtime is my guess, First Age at latest.) though the current Galin dynasty which Ingye belongs to only seems to have ruled for the past two centuries. I would go so far as to say that perhaps the woman role isn't dominated exclusively by the Earth rune like the Orlanthi but that the Fire/Sky rune night be just as accepted for a woman in the Galanini.

The Utoni/Galanini fascinate me, while they've accepted some revelations such as Humat = Orlanth, or becoming more urbanized, they seem to have never actually lost their worship to these great big culture groups exerting their influence in Safelster like the Vustri or the Korioni did to the Theyalans (though I imagine they have some strange thoughts compared to Kerofinelans), or were absorbed into the Malkioni like majority of the Fornaoli were. They're still this tribe of people that have managed to retain their own separate identity, they embody their solar heritage and somehow remained pure though not particularly chaste.

Looking at the Galanini, their matrilinearity, how they retained their identity, and the marriages and inheritance in Ralios, suddenly the orgies clicked into place. The festival orgies in Estali and Helby serve another function than just being religiously significant and fun for all involved, it allows the Galanini to have heiresses without the potential problem of the father claiming the child as their own. Think about it, both the Malkioni and the Orlanthi who married into the Galanini would claim patrilineal descent of the child in the majority of cases and desire to raise the child among their own cultures, slowly but surely chipping away at the Galanini, the orgies give the Galanini an out, a child that is theirs and theirs alone. It might not be chaste but it certainly is a way of maintaining the Galanini's own purity.

Sorry to go off on a very weird tangent about the Galanini, with what might be some totally off-base theories and thoughts, but I feel like this might be the one chance for a while I get to mention some of this with it being tangentially related to the topic.

Edit: Sorry I forgot to talk about how they're also seemingly the Horse Hsunchen at the same time, but that's wrapped up in their whole Solar identity as well, I feel.

Edited by Mirza
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16 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's a Dara Happan dualistic philosophy that divides the world in flame and fuel, with flame being the purest, but pure fuel providing the purest flame, too.

Ah, so the reason they consider Water more impure than Earth is because it doesn't burn as well.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Goddess of Still Air, traitor daughter of Vadrus and concubine of Yelm, to whom she bore Daga, god of drought.

So that's why Yelm can just order Daga to stop.

Also, a Storm goddes who jumped over to the Solar pantheon? I can see how that could raise some tempers.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, it is at the very least quite weird to find such a difference in the interpretation of celestial bodies between these neighboring cultures who have assimilated one anothers celestial histories, but fail to agree on this point.

Something that is interesting in itself when you put it that way but hopless to speculate upon. The answear cuold also be quite simple (and even then I could think of at least three or four reasons right now). The simplest one beingOfcourse I don't know how throughoutly they tried to learn each others myths and gods and if there were parts they simply didn't want to share or that the others belief system or myths made incomprehensible.

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

That might be better off in threads of their own. Many of these are minor or even extinct at the end of the Third Age.

It's not that I don't appreasiate the all that information you wrote, I do, especially the exceptions.

What I meant was a similar summarization of the way Darkness and Water civilizations are most of the time. Like the ones I gave for Earth, Storm and Sky/Fire (with corrections welcome if any of them are too far of the mark ).

 

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Storm Pentans are as patriarchalic as their Solar brethren

I didn't expect that.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are other earth worshipers with more patriarchalic elements

This even less.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The White Queens of Peloria who predated Yelm Brightface worshiped White Sedenya

For some reason this doesn't surprise me quite as much, probably because of the Green Age (although I half expected no Solar civiliozations to exist during that time).

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Pelandan pre-history with the Dendara/Entekos myths prior to the Wedding Contest might be a form of antithetical Air culture, but that's amid Sky and Earth ancestry and influences.

Meaning they would be calm, docile, peacful, humble and organized? Yes that does sound somewhat Sky and Earth, if not entirely.

 

---

Before I forget:

On 11/22/2019 at 9:22 PM, soltakss said:

Earth has Dust, but I can't remember the purely fertile part of Earth, which would be the counter to Dust, if there is even such a rune.

Air/Storm might have Air and Storm, but they are generally seen together. so, Brastalos and Mollani might be Air Goddesses rather than Storm Goddesses and Storm Bull or Gagarth might be Storm Gods rather than Air Gods, but the runes are not normally split.

Water does not normally have a sub Rune, I think, but some claim that Ice is a sub-rune of Water.

I don't know if that's the case but I would propse:

  • Soil for Earth that is purely fertile . (probably lustful and nurturing)
  • Thunder or Lightning for Storm without the wind. (violent and agressive?)
  • Wind for Storm without the thunder and lightning. (adventurous and optimistic? or posibly even more impulsive)

I can't think of any for Water.

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1 hour ago, None said:

What I meant was a similar summarization of the way Darkness and Water civilizations are most of the time. Like the ones I gave for Earth, Storm and Sky/Fire (with corrections welcome if any of them are too far of the mark ).

One complication here is that Sky is really where human religious innovation starts and then develops in the Storm interaction. Before that you mostly have tutelary relationships with "elder race" complexes transmitting their elemental orientations. 

Again a mouthful so what does it really mean? We can talk convincingly about Sky and Storm civilizations because we have terminal third age examples to look at and they generally behave a lot more like classical religions familiar from earth. The gods look both like us and like the reconstructed pantheons of modern pop mythology. They should. That's where they come from: human sources, human intermediaries filtered through human concerns. What you do not hear a lot about in Sky and Storm is talk about tutelary spirits far outside the anthropocentric norm. I know they're in the books but you rarely if ever meet them as part of your core experience. They look and talk mostly like people.

Dark and Sea are at the other end of the spectrum. The overwhelming majority of the population here are not simply tutored by elder race patrons but the elder races themselves. You rarely meet a coherent Water civilization these days because the ethos isn't really compatible in the long term with sustaining long-term human life beyond a certain small scale. As a result the triolini are the primary reservoir of Sea in itself and if you want to learn about that you really need to find a way to get them talking. Likewise, while there are plenty of trolls and troll-tinged human successor cultures, most of that stuff survives on the fringes and deep strata of the human world. You really need to be eager or desperate to discover a lot about the Dark. Then, after that, you really need to be special in order to communicate those findings with us back in town. What happens in Dagori Inkarth largely stays in Dagori Inkarth.

History also makes it complicated. In ancient days the world was much more makeshift and most of us were a lot closer to the troll world. Arguably one of the functions of time or at least civilization as a verb is to widen the separation between humans today and the trolls of the past, but once upon a time trolls ran the world and our ancestors were a subtype with then-unexplored potential to thrive under different conditions. Some of these undifferentiated "Dark civilizations" did survive into historical times though so for models we look at places like the Kingdom of Night and its cousin, the Kingdom of Ignorance, along with the reconstructed mythic record of the Spolites, the theoretically extinct Tamalites of old Seshnela, Alkoth, whatever got built in Stygia, etc.

Local variations abound as these people differentiated from their Dark patrons but in most cases I think you'd see strongly survival-oriented patterns. They are what we'd consider extremely pragmatic, without a lot of fixed ideology to hold their urges back. What rules they do respect tend to look irrational and more than a little spooky to us: taboos and elaborate superstitions. They eat, they reproduce, they die. Their theology and other aspects of their inner lives are built out of similarly cyclopean blocks that some people would consider primitive. Records are often irrelevant, which complicates reconstruction of the ones that are gone now. But you can go back there and see for yourself. The hard part is to avoid simply becoming a troll. Trolls did OK. The toughest ones of all became the trolls that are still here with us. Around a typical hard troll center you get a softer periphery of hybrids, crazy or desperate human "degenerates," fancy trollkin, whatever. Sometimes the troll center goes away and leaves a periphery behind. That's a classic Dark Culture. There were more once than there are now. I do not think the world is still creating new ones but could be wrong.

Sea also has a margin and coastal humans all over the lozenge were open to archaic triolini contacts. We know a lot less about the patterns here because of the accident of documentation: the part of Glorantha where all the publishing happens is between troll peripheries so many of the deep roots in the Storm we know are really Dark. On the other hand, the closest Sea cultures are quiet, vestigial and largely submerged into more recent collectives, so you won't actually get the taste of their water until you actually go there and talk to the people. Thanks to the Closing, this is mostly true across the third age: Water comes and goes but unless you go swimming it's hard to really get your hands on it. 

This was not always true. Triolini were on the whole more numerous, more diverse and nicer in the dawn days and there were tutelary contacts. The most important ones I know about were in the West, where separate contacts become various strains of the Malkion-Waertag complex, but there were undoubtedly others. There were also the famous but vanished Helerites, classical Artmalites and so on who learn Water from more direct sources (more like the more successful Sky/Storm humans) but they don't really survive, largely because the dominant triolini culture achieves coastal hegemony by suppressing nearly all known competitors. Taken as a whole, the West remains the dominant Water Culture we can look at, although the influences now are dilute after centuries of contact and innovation. But that's what Water does. It flows, it mixes, it absorbs, it spreads. 

What is "watery" in the ideology of the West? This is already too long so I'd just ponder Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea (quick, short read) for now. Pragmatic like Dark but with a more developed sense of process. Water has no internal boundaries but it has memory, which serves a similar purpose. It makes friends, borrows and lends, holds grudges. It is interested in origins and speculates about endings: genealogy, taxonomy. For all this, its thought tends to be abstract and, as we say in Glorantha without real explanation, "iconoclastic" or non-representational. They don't usually make idols that create an archaeological record and reveal their ritual world when they wash up. They carry their idols in them. The bodies of their gods don't survive on the surface. They explode. Ask the ouori if you can still find one. Give the ludoch something worth their time. Or talk to the other ones in a language they can understand.

Now I've left Earth out of this because Earth is at the center of this elemental process. Like the older elements, nearly everything we have here derives from elder race tutelage. Those races are still extant and will make new pacts. But like the newer elements, the primary engine of innovation here now is human initiates in relation to mostly anthropomorphic gods. Religion follows human history. 

What is interesting about Earth in the terminal third age (and indeed throughout most of time) is that this is where we see the world changing. Where the trolls have already receded to the hardest frontiers (and are now being squeezed out there), the elves and dwarves who taught Earth Mysteries are now in the process of disappearing from human religious experience. Not counting the occasional short-lived successful reforestation, Aldrya is going away, leaving settled grain goddesses and the occasional isolated survival in her wake. The dwarves are also largely done with us. They have some spectacular revenge plots left to play out but then their armories and treasuries are empty. Both ideologies spent valuable resources trying to exterminate each other over which would dominate the Earth complex. There were other Earth tutors like the Likitae and Tilntae early on but they are even farther along on the road to becoming pure spirit (i.e. extinction). 

On the whole I'd say Elf Earth won as far as "Earth" cultures go, but it gets complicated. Grower is settled and passive (the active part literally follows the Sun and seeds that world) so survives literally underfoot everywhere you have peasants. Push them in the right way and maybe they can reconnect with the elf world that was, Green consciousness. It's worth a hero war to find out. Maker, on the other hand, sees Green as at best an inefficient production system to be replaced when you find something better. There aren't a lot of successful Maker client cultures because that's not how Mostal ever functioned . . . we usually call Mostal Earth client cultures "slaves" or at best "dwarves," but again, there are examples all over the lozenge. Either way, they were here, they taught us the Earth as they knew it, now we carry on.

The expert will note that the classic five-element taxonomy bends around Maker/Grower and also its expansion into Maker/Grower/Taker when trolls are reintroduced to the surface world. Likewise, sovereign Sky hates the water that makes its gold eyes blue but is especially concerned about the binary Light/Dark . . . "everything not Fire is Fuel, and what sensible Yelmite wastes effort puzzling out fractions of impurity? It's all impure." And so on.

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5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

There were also the famous but vanished Helerites

Well. The Helerites remain, it's the Blue civilisations that did not. The Red Cow clan is full of blue-skinned, white-haired people who worship Heler, for example, but attempts at colonising failed in the Flood or after. There are blueskins all over Genertela, at least, but none of them are anything but remnant peoples; there's no real city-states.

Of course, this might change with the return of the Dragonboat(s)... Gonna be some "revitalised" sog cities. Esrolia better build some shore defenses.

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18 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Of course, this might change with the return of the Dragonboat(s)... Gonna be some "revitalised" sog cities. Esrolia better build some shore defenses.

Heh. They're gonna need a higher shore anyway as those longer boats come. 

Definitely a lot of archaic survivals rolled into all extant elemental complexes, especially Storm, which on the right day I'm still convinced is only the succession process of a malfunctioning Sky, essentially the Earth's divorce papers served. Any "Storm Tribe" that we observe today is an accident of history and artifact of continental politics. 

This would of course reduce the "central Genertelan" or "northern corner" mythos into a three-element system and relegate Dark and Sea to the transitions so who wants that. But someone historically associated a Lorion figure with the Helerites and that's interesting. What's that cycle all about and to whom does it matter.

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The Storm Tribe is also quite cosmopolitan, as the pantheoi go.

Doylistically, that's for variety of PC options in the core culture, but in-fiction Orlanth's big innovation over Umath is assembling all-star team of diverse deities with complementary strengths and insights to bring to the party.

Wedding Ernalda to cement the core Air+Earth alliance is the most obvious example, but Little-John-ing in various former rivals like Heler, Engizi, Elmal, and Yavor, bonding with Eurmal, recruiting/adopting Issaries, L. M., & Gustbran, and Esrola marrying Argan Argar (along with Orlanth's fling with Kyger Lytor) all make for a package of talents and capabilities unmatched by anyone, until the Lunars set to out power-game game the God Learners.

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2 hours ago, JonL said:

Wedding Ernalda to cement the core Air+Earth alliance is the most obvious example, but Little-John-ing in various former rivals like Heler, Engizi, Elmal, and Yavor, bonding with Eurmal, recruiting/adopting Issaries, L. M., & Gustbran, and Esrola marrying Argan Argar (along with Orlanth's fling with Kyger Lytor) all make for a package of talents and capabilities unmatched by anyone, until the Lunars set to out power-game game the God Learners.

Well, it's a match made of two fine minds. While He was proven a gifted chieftain in his initiation, Ernalda is the one who brought in the weddings. She was responsible for cementing half of those alliances, and She did a lot of it with Her own equally-smart mind. The yearly contest between Heler and Elmal? That's Ernalda.

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On 11/24/2019 at 9:48 AM, Joerg said:

Babs

The thought of referring to the absolutely terrifying being that is Babeester Gor as "Babs" has me in absolute stiches. 😁

On 11/24/2019 at 5:25 PM, scott-martin said:

Either way, they were here, they taught us the Earth as they knew it, now we carry on.

And now I'm sad again... curse you for tapping into that ineffable Tolkienesque melancholy!

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Have anyone beside the God Learners tried to change the personality and nature of any of the gods through Hero Questing (I'm straight out assuming the God' Learners did try and that it went horribly but feel free to mention them anyway, by the way remember once having heard about the God Learners and a trickster university, what was that about)?

Actually, if you managed to change the personality of a god that is a rune wouldn't you potentially change the entire rune?

On 11/25/2019 at 5:41 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

And now I'm sad again... curse you for tapping into that ineffable Tolkienesque melancholy!

How about calling Shargash 'Shaggy'?

(Not very good I know but I've never considered myself more than mediocre at concious humor.)

 

edit: speaking or runes, I just remembered.

What's up with the Dragon rune (not the Dragonewt rune, the onethat looks like square turned 45 degrees with a cross painted over it) and what is its relation with the Dragonewt rune and the dragons of  Dragon Pass?

I know that som Kraloreans turn into what sort of look like dragonewts but actually aren't and that the Dragon rune seem to have something to do with another form of Illumination but that's about it.

 

edit, edit: oh yes, also.

I've been thinking about all that's been said about Dendara and an argument could be made that she was originally an Earth goddess that got rid of her Earth rune in favour for the Light rune. That would solve the whole she's descended from the Earth goddesses but the Earth rune not fitting her role thing and place within Dara Happan society.

Of course, that would probably make her relation with most Earth goddesses tense and I don't know if gods changing elemental runes is at all normal.

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I just recalled a Sun deity that goes against type: Yamsur. He's portrayed as a pretty happy-go-lucky wastrel-esque guy in the Hyaloring myths in Six Ages. Whether his people (the Genertings? Tadaings? proto-Oasis Folk) saw him like that is a different matter entirely, of course, but the characterization is there.

3 hours ago, None said:

How about calling Shargash 'Shaggy'?

I'll consider it. :P
 

3 hours ago, None said:

What's up with the Dragon rune (not the Dragonewt rune, the onethat looks like square turned 45 degrees with a cross painted over it) and what is its relation with the Dragonewt rune and the dragons of  Dragon Pass?

Not sure what's "up with it", did you mean in any special sense, the origin, design, implication, function or something else? 

It's a diamond shape (a square askew) crossed out. It could imply something to do with the Void, in the sense that dragons and dragonnewts seek disentanglement and mystical ascension beyond the confinement of the material world/ordered cosmos (the diamond), but that's just my interpretation. 

I also think the Beast Rune (as well as, more obviously, the Dragonnewt Rune) is derived from it, due to the large presence of serpent/dragon-imagery in Beast-mythology and symbolism, but this is a bit more esoteric.

Apparently it's a Condition Rune and not a Form Rune, which I find a bit weird, but oh well. 

The Guide says that Godunya "owns" the Dragon Rune, but as usual, I find the concept of Rune ownership more obfuscating and misleading than it is useful, so honestly that can mean anything. I'll take it to mean that the God Learners found the Kralori Emperor to be the most powerful/widely acknowledged authority using the Rune they came into contact with (and for a while usurped), but that's just my take on it.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I just recalled a Sun deity that goes against type: Yamsur. He's portrayed as a pretty happy-go-lucky wastrel-esque guy in the Hyaloring myths in Six Ages. Whether his people (the Genertings? Tadaings? proto-Oasis Folk) saw him like that is a different matter entirely, of course, but the characterization is there.

Little is known about Him but Yamsur is generally portrayed as a hero in the modern sense. He seems to have been deeply loved and His heroic martyrdom probably encourages this view.

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