What's Next For Pendragon?

[Username]

@creativehum I'll say this, my player love the BoK&L. I've had Aquitainians, Irish, Romans, Cymrics, Saxons, and even multiple Picts! None of the more exotic cultures as I've only played in the early years when it's hard to justify their coming to Britain. I was interested in this topic, so I asked a few yesterday and all of them were very positive about the cultural skills. They really enjoy the customization options the book offers and enjoy how it differentiates between their characters. We've had a great time with it.

@Morien It's funny you mention that! I just was looking through KAP 4E as I may actually get to play in my first game and someone was talking about being a magician and noticed that Occitanians were one of the main cultures and the Aquitainians were not. Does anyone know what prompted their addition? I mean it makes sense, you can hardly imagine the lands of Ban and Bors being culturally Occitanians or Germanic Frank's. 

[Morien]

21 minutes ago, Username said:

 It's funny you mention that! I just was looking through KAP 4E as I may actually get to play in my first game and someone was talking about being a magician and noticed that Occitanians were one of the main cultures and the Aquitainians were not. Does anyone know what prompted their addition? I mean it makes sense, you can hardly imagine the lands of Ban and Bors being culturally Occitanians or Germanic Frank's. 

Stereotype of Occitanians in 4e: "The Occitanian stereotype is that of a refined courtier, interested in all the latest courtly fashions, including romance. Occitanians are wealthy, comfortable, and stylish. Gaul is the center of romantic poetry which will spread to all the Arthurian lands, and its natives are its staunchest adherents."

Stereotype of Aquitanians in K&L:

"Stereotype: Arrogant continental nobility, even a little soft since they so prefer the ways of love.

Self Image: Sophisticated continental nobility, where noblesse oblige is a virtue of the nobles, who wisely and benevolently oversee their vassals of all classes.

Let’s Be Practical: These are sophisticated, cultured people, able to charm, make poetry and read. They are from the land of Sir Lancelot."

 

Lancelot's Culture in 4e character sheet: "Occitan"

 

Hence, 4e Occitan = K&L Aquitanian.

 

As for why the name change was made, I was not involved yet in that, but I would imagine that as the start time got pushed back to 485 in 5e, Greg decided to make the world more akin to historical late 5th century, too, hence the mentions of Visigoths and Ostrogoths and Franks. Very striking is if you look at the 'French' names in K&L (actually Frankish) and compare with the French names in 3e/4e (more medieval French names).

 

 

 

[Morien]

3 hours ago, creativehum said:

I'm really glad we kept this conversation going, because I see your point and concern now. I'm still not sure if I think your concerns are warranted. But I could see a Player new to the game saying, "Oh, I see, the Cymrics, don't do Romance. They're 'fighters.'"

The reason I pushed this discussion was because I wanted to understand you're point of view. I've never had the chance to put BK&L into play. (I always get players going with Cymric Knights.) And you've given me something to mull. Once more I'm looking at KAP 3e as the springwell for the game, specifically Knights Adventurous (later reprinted in KAP 4e). It sets up almost everything as you have suggested -- starting values set for various cultures, but no "track" for advantage of one quality of knight over another based on that culture.

Thank you all for the discussion, and especially @Morien who had to keep illustrating and discussing his point of view!

Thanks to everyone, too. I didn't really expect to win many converts, but at least I managed to communicate why I dislike those skills, and that counts as a successful roll in my book!

And yes, like you point out, we didn't have the cultural speciality skills until K&L, and did just fine with various different cultures.

[Atgxtg]

Oh, I agree that there was a shift in cultures in KAP5. It's one of t he reasons why I was su\o surprised that people got upset with the idea of basing skills off of APP/2 and DEX/2. If you look at KAP1, 3-4, and 5 you can see that very little has  stayed the same from culture to culture regarding starting skills.

[creativehum]

On 11/29/2019 at 11:36 AM, Morien said:

Thanks to everyone, too. I didn't really expect to win many converts, but at least I managed to communicate why I dislike those skills, and that counts as a successful roll in my book!

And yes, like you point out, we didn't have the cultural speciality skills until K&L, and did just fine with various different cultures.

My final thoughts on this sub-topic... and why I appreciate Morien's point-of-view on this matter.

Years ago, when I was digging into Le Morte D'Arthur (because of King Arthur Pendragon) I picked up a copy of Beverly Kennedy's Knighthood in Le Morte D'Arthur.

Here's the description: 

Quote

"Beverley Kennedy puts Malory's concern with knighthood at the very heart of the Morte Darthur. She identifies three types of knight: the Heroic (Gawain), the Worshipful (Tristram and Arthur), and the True (Lancelot, Gareth and the Grail Knights), and argues that this knightly typology creates the thematic unity of the Morte Darthur. It also allows Malory to develop two quite different contexts, one pragmatic and political, the other religious and providential, within which the reader may judge why Arthur's reign ended in catastrophe."

I found the book compelling in regard to Le Morte D'Arthur in general, and KAP specifically. Reading it I saw how Stafford had built a game that would encourage knights to be any of the three types Kennedy suggests, and that playing any of them would make sense in the context of the game.

In my view it should never be obvious or easy to be a Christian Knight or a Chivalrous Knight. There should always be good reasons for PC Knights to reject being Merciful, or wish to avoid being Valorous, or being Arbritrary in a judgement, and so on, with practical rewards on the other side of such a decision: slaying an enemy whose death the PC Knight would benefit from, avoiding a fight that risks the Knight's death even as others charge in, or encouraging a decision that is not Just but works in favor of the Knight's family or Lord, and so on.

If the Referee of a KAP game is not setting choices before a Knight that tempt him to be Cruel, Cowardly, or Arbitray in a very real and meaningful way I think the Referee is falling down on the job!

That this tension exists for any PC Knight all the time is, I think, one of the strengths of the game. And I offer that @Morien's point is that if a Culture becomes responsible for determining whether a night is a political knight, or a warrior-focused knight, and so on, this tension is lessoned because we assume the Knight's temperament on these matters is already fixed and determined. Thus we lose, to some degree, this quality of "What kind of Knight are you?"

So, using the rules from Knights Adventurous we have Knights (as @Morien points out) that might start ahead of the game in one quality or another, but turn out to become a different sort of Knight when all is said and done after years are lived. I do think this open-ended, equal playing field for encouraging types of behavior is one of the strong qualities of KAP -- or at least one of the things I love most about it. 

My thoughts here are, of course, not the final say on the matter. But I see now more what @Morien was getting at. And I do find myself agreeing with him -- especially within the context of Kennedy's book and my love of applying her thoughts to how I would love KAP to play out.

[Sir Newbie]

On 11/23/2019 at 5:22 AM, RichardA said:

Does anyone know what new book(s) might be out next for KAP?

When new KAP books do come out, where will they be announced? I'd like to bookmark/RSS to make sure I don't miss anything.

[Steve]

5 hours ago, Sir Newbie said:

When new KAP books do come out, where will they be announced? I'd like to bookmark/RSS to make sure I don't miss anything.

Now that it's Chaosium that own KAP again, there will be plenty of announcements. Chaosium have a newsletter mailing list that you can sign up to (check the front page of their website, down the bottom). And they're bound to mention it in their blog. Chaosium are also pretty active on social media as well.

[Sir Newbie]

How often does their newsletter come out? I hope it's not as often as their blog - it looks like it is updated a few times a week, which is much more than I'm looking for.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Sir Newbie

[Steve]

7 hours ago, Sir Newbie said:

How often does their newsletter come out? I hope it's not as often as their blog - it looks like it is updated a few times a week, which is much more than I'm looking for.

Roughly every two weeks, though there's not a fixed schedule. I'm guessing that it just depends on how much new stuff that they've got to announce.

[redmoongoddess]

Late and off topic, but adding to BOLAK discussion. 

I would like it if the Zazamanc culture was changed into an more "accurate" mixture of the fictional kingdom from Parzival, and the actual cultures in existence at the time in the area, like the Sasanian Empire and Berbers. 

Why? Because Medieval West Africa is cool and generally ignored as an setting, and it would frankly be a lot easier to portray and role play if there was more actual historical sources to pull from than merely just Medieval Misconceptions, that are thankfully depicted in Pendragon as not being inherently evil or needing of being forced to convert to another religion as in the fiction, but still not very real. 

Case in point, I feel that it would be better if Zoroastrianism was directly discussed in the book instead of just the vague "Saracenism", considering it's an very interesting religion that gives an cool contrast to the many other "pagan" religions in Pendragon in it's embracing of Monotheism, instead of the implied or directly mentioned worship of multiple deities that is common around the world of Pendragon.

Saracenism shouldn't be completely removed, and it needs to be noted that Zoroastrianism didn't really reach into that far into Africa due to the Sasanian Empire's limits, I just think it give some interesting roleplaying opportunities if there were more options for the culture.

I'm not saying to completely remove the kingdom of Zazamanc because it didn't exist/isn't accurate either, since Pendragon is a game about KING ARTHUR, but I feel that real life can't be completely overlooked in pursuit of accuracy to literature, we wouldn't be allowing stuff like Female Knights if we were being completely accurate. But we do allow it. And Pendragon is better for it.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

I would like it if the Zazamanc culture was changed into an more "accurate" mixture of the fictional kingdom from Parzival, and the actual cultures in existence at the time in the area, like the Sasanian Empire and Berbers. 

Sounds like a golden opportunity for someone to write a supplement along the lines of Pagan Shores, Saxons! or Land of the Giants.

 

3 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Why? Because Medieval West Africa is cool and generally ignored as an setting, and it would frankly be a lot easier to portray and role play if there was more actual historical sources to pull from than merely just Medieval Misconceptions, that are thankfully depicted in Pendragon as not being inherently evil or needing of being forced to convert to another religion as in the fiction, but still not very real. 

That tends to be the case with alot of cultures. We really didn't get much for poplaying in a Roman settng or Celtic, let alone Africa. Typically they end up as one shot publciations. So there is little incentive for RPG companies to do much with them, and they end up as "labor of love' projjects for those with an interest in the settings. The Rolemaster and GURPS lines of settings books were really good for fleshing a lot of setting out, as were some of the BRP BGB supplements such as Rome and Merrie England.

 

3 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Saracenism shouldn't be completely removed, and it needs to be noted that Zoroastrianism didn't really reach into that far into Africa due to the Sasanian Empire's limits, I just think it give some interesting roleplaying opportunities if there were more options for the culture.

The thing that the authors would need to tap dance around is Islam. Because that faith has severe restrictions to how it can be referred to in text and illustration, and because certain practitioners of it would take extreme action upon anyone who broke those tenets, it is probably best avoided in an RPG, especially in one such as Pendragon. We don't want anybody to be under a death sentence for writing an RPG supplement.

Since Islam had such a profound effect on the cultures it makes it difficult to work out what they should be like for Pendragon. Are the more like 5th century cultures, or like the Medieval cultures, but without Islam? And if the latter, then what else is used to justify some of the cultural mores?

It's quite a minefield, especially in an Arthurian RPG where a strong Christian bias tends to exist. 

[jeffjerwin]

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

The thing that the authors would need to tap dance around is Islam. Because that faith has severe restrictions to how it can be referred to in text and illustration, and because certain practitioners of it would take extreme action upon anyone who broke those tenets, it is probably best avoided in an RPG, especially in one such as Pendragon. We don't want anybody to be under a death sentence for writing an RPG supplement.

Since Islam had such a profound effect on the cultures it makes it difficult to work out what they should be like for Pendragon. Are the more like 5th century cultures, or like the Medieval cultures, but without Islam? And if the latter, then what else is used to justify some of the cultural mores?

It's quite a minefield, especially in an Arthurian RPG where a strong Christian bias tends to exist. 

Ars Magica has managed pretty well: their game is set in the era of Islam and has Islamic characters and magicians. I don't think rpgs are really on the radar for fundamentalists. Movies, sure.

I would use the polytheism from the Chansons de Geste (Termagant, Apollyon, Cahuz, etc., and omit 'Mahoun') or the traditional pre-Islamic polytheism of the Berbers and Arabs instead of Islam, or even Orthodox Christianity. Islam is not really mentioned in the romances. Zoroasterianism is inappropriate for most of the actual Saracen characters. Palomides and his family are from Egypt and would likely be pagan holdouts with Greco-Egyptian gods. 'Zazamanc' is ambiguously located in Parzival (and Willehalm) but might be the Garamantes region of the Sahara, which was still pagan in the 6th century, but also seems to be near India (though medieval geography had trouble distinguishing between India and Ethiopia). Others are Christians, like Acanor the Black (Li Lait Hardi).

Besides the Saracen 'gods' the Greco-Roman gods show up as the gods of the Saxons and other foes, primarily because the authors knew nothing about them, and the religious literature 'translated' gods like Woden into Mercury, etc.

There's a small but interesting number of characters from India as well in Arthurian romance hobnobbing with the court, usually as associates of the Ladies of the Lake or the Grail kings. Keep in mind there's no Americas in medieval geography, so even with a round world, sailing to Avalon and India (Avalon is placed in the Indian Ocean in some stories) is indeed possible by heading directly west.

[Richard S.]

Unrelated to the current conversation, but related to the topic as a whole: do we have any sort of ETA on the upcoming magic book? iirc it and the gamemaster's screen are in the pipeline, but I don't recall seeing anything about them other than that.

[Atgxtg]

5 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Unrelated to the current conversation, but related to the topic as a whole: do we have any sort of ETA on the upcoming magic book? iirc it and the gamemaster's screen are in the pipeline, but I don't recall seeing anything about them other than that.

Not really. Everything has been "in the pipeline", and then for some time. So it's pretty much a matter of it will come out when it's ready. 

[Atgxtg]

35 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Ars Magica has managed pretty well: their game is set in the era of Islam and has Islamic characters and magicians. I don't think rpgs are really on the radar for fundamentalists. Movies, sure.

Good. I wouldn't want anyone to run up against them over an RPG.

35 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I would use the polytheism from the Chansons de Geste (Termagant, Apollyon, Cahuz, etc., and omit 'Mahoun') or the traditional pre-Islamic polytheism of the Berbers and Arabs instead of Islam, or even Orthodox Christianity. Islam is not really mentioned in the romances.

That's not a bad idea. I'm partial to using historical 5th-6th century cultures for places that are not really mentioned in the literature. I think the age of advancement that accompanies Arthur mostly radiates out from Britain with the rest of the world still at their historical levels. The only exception seems to be the Romans, who are sort of held over to make Arthur's conquest of Rome mean something, and who are already tied to the "historical Arthur" in some ways.. 

[redmoongoddess]

On 1/11/2020 at 5:45 PM, jeffjerwin said:

I would use the polytheism from the Chansons de Geste (Termagant, Apollyon, Cahuz, etc., and omit 'Mahoun') or the traditional pre-Islamic polytheism of the Berbers and Arabs instead of Islam, or even Orthodox Christianity. Islam is not really mentioned in the romances. Zoroasterianism is inappropriate for most of the actual Saracen characters. Palomides and his family are from Egypt and would likely be pagan holdouts with Greco-Egyptian gods. 'Zazamanc' is ambiguously located in Parzival (and Willehalm) but might be the Garamantes region of the Sahara, which was still pagan in the 6th century, but also seems to be near India (though medieval geography had trouble distinguishing between India and Ethiopia). Others are Christians, like Acanor the Black (Li Lait Hardi).

Good point. I was going with Zoroastrianism because of the vagueness of where Zazamanc is at and the fact the Sasanian Empire was very active at the time that Pendragon takes place.

But really, I feel the fictional pantheon already used in BOKAL should be kept, but the section about Zazamanc should include and focus more on "historical" religions, due to the fact it's really just an gigantic anachronism in place of the actual religious practices, that would be easier to roleplay IMO.

I know the default Paganism that's detailed is sorta like this too, considering the little information about what was worshiped in the time period in comparison to Christianity, not to mention we don't know ANYTHING about whatever was believed by the Picts.

But there is actual info about the "Pagan" religions that was worshiped in those areas at the time that is available from what I can tell, and I feel it's a waste to completely ignore that, and the Trio of Termagant and Apollyon and Mahouri isn't as interesting to role play as something like an Greco-Egyptian pantheon (Playing as an knight who worshiped Ra would be interesting!) or the Pre-Islamic religions of the Middle East IMHO, I feel it's better when you've got something you can look up for more information beyond the statement of "some weird idea people believed about the middle east back in the day"! I just feel like the current presentation of the Zazamanc culture is like if they ignored Beowulf in the section for the Danes or something.

I am surprised Zazamancs don't already have an option to start out as Christians in the book. I guess it's to avoid the idea of them not being Christians being inherently bad that is often suggested in the original sources, but considering that A LOT of other cultures in there are given options to become Christians, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to assume some people  in the kingdom of Zazamanc are already converted to the new religion. 

On 1/11/2020 at 8:56 AM, Atgxtg said:

Sounds like a golden opportunity for someone to write a supplement along the lines of Pagan Shores, Saxons! or Land of the Giants.

Agreed! An source book about adventuring in North Africa and (part of) the Middle East during the time of Arthur would be very cool. I imagine Zazamanc to be to North Africa what Logres was to the land of Britain. An mythical land that embodied the best aspects of it's culture yet sadly fell to the folly of mortal sin as any government does eventually. And it would be interesting to see Ghouls appear in a Pendragon adventure, considering their origins in Arabic folklore, but they would probably be by Zazamanc's far border, as I doubt it's borders includes that area, and we don't want to mix up the different and diverse cultures of Africa. 

Off Topic to my post but on topic to our...Topic, it would be cool to see an resurrection of the Regional books, perhaps one about Cornwall detailing an alternative prospective to the campaign where your Knights follow the rule of King Mark, or one that explores ruined Rome? 

RE:Geography, I prefer to think Pendragon still takes place on a round Earth despite the many other intentional errors in the game, I feel it's important that not everything in the game is as people in the past "believe", as it allows for exploring more themes and stories than ones that were strictly in the words of Le Morte Da Arthur, I'm pretty sure there weren't any lady knights or many chivalrous Saxtons in it's fiction, but they are allowed in Pendragon since that brings up fun options to the game.

I could be wrong, but still. I feel that America existing in the land of Pendragon is more interesting than it being a flat planet. It's unlikely that any players will go there to meet the Native Cultures (Unless it's an Vallant inspired campaign) but some people's ran WEIRDER campaigns. Not to mention accounts of the Inuits meeting Vikings for those running an campaign as the Danes.

Final Subject: Anyone know anything about Codex Mirabilis' content beyond that you'll be able to create a Magician that's different from the ones included in 4th edition? I prefer Ars Magica for being a medieval wizard. But I'm still very interested in seeing it done in Pendragon...again.

[jeffjerwin]

5 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Final Subject: Anyone know anything about Codex Mirabilis' content beyond that you'll be able to create a Magician that's different from the ones included in 4th edition? I prefer Ars Magica for being a medieval wizard. But I'm still very interested in seeing it done in Pendragon...again.

Ars Magica is not (and I have studied medieval magic) at all realistic or based on magic as practiced in the Middle Ages. Maybe if one took away the wizards and left only the Hedge Mages and alternate magical traditions. The Order of Hermes is pure fantasy.

For the magic book, expect something that reflects the magic depicted in the stories and romances rather than something like in AM or in 4th edition.

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

I am surprised Zazamancs don't already have an option to start out as Christians in the book. I guess it's to avoid the idea of them not being Christians being inherently bad that is often suggested in the original sources, but considering that A LOT of other cultures in there are given options to become Christians, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to assume some people  in the kingdom of Zazamanc are already converted to the new religion. 

I suspect it's more a case of making them different. Generally players like to have little unque things about characters, and religion is one of the ways characters can be customized in Pendragon. 

6 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Agreed! An source book about adventuring in North Africa and (part of) the Middle East during the time of Arthur would be very cool. I imagine Zazamanc to be to North Africa what Logres was to the land of Britain. An mythical land that embodied the best aspects of it's culture yet sadly fell to the folly of mortal sin as any government does eventually. And it would be interesting to see Ghouls appear in a Pendragon adventure, considering their origins in Arabic folklore, but they would probably be by Zazamanc's far border, as I doubt it's borders includes that area, and we don't want to mix up the different and diverse cultures of Africa. 

Yeah, and I think that helps to explain both why a region/culture book would be nice, and why such doesn't really work as mainstream Pendragon. Basically every people have an interesting culture with lots of rich local lore to draw from, but most of it isn't Arthurian in nature and so has to take a back seat in Pendragon. Oh, and you might want to include such things as the dog-headed Kynokephaloi and headless Acephali in book. I've considered throwing them into an adventure in Africa.

 

 

6 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

RE:Geography, I prefer to think Pendragon still takes place on a round Earth despite the many other intentional errors in the game, I feel it's important that not everything in the game is as people in the past "believe", as it allows for exploring more themes and stories than ones that were strictly in the words of Le Morte Da Arthur, I'm pretty sure there weren't any lady knights or many chivalrous Saxtons in it's fiction, but they are allowed in Pendragon since that brings up fun options to the game.

 

6 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

I could be wrong, but still. I feel that America existing in the land of Pendragon is more interesting than it being a flat planet. It's unlikely that any players will go there to meet the Native Cultures (Unless it's an Vallant inspired campaign) but some people's ran WEIRDER campaigns. Not to mention accounts of the Inuits meeting Vikings for those running an campaign as the Danes.

I agree and there is a little in game evidiece to support this. In one of the tournaments I believe Greg lists either Prince Valiant or Prince Arn as a participant (it's a throw away line). Now Greg was a fan of  Hal Foster's Prince Valiant strip, and wrote the Prince Valiant RPG in addition to Pendragon. In the comic strip a storm causes Val to wind up in North America. Val even brings back a few natives, including a maid. So I think the Americas are there, just that it would take exception circumstances for characters to get there, or to come from there., and that it would be another "non-knightly" culture.

 

6 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Final Subject: Anyone know anything about Codex Mirabilis' content beyond that you'll be able to create a Magician that's different from the ones included in 4th edition? I prefer Ars Magica for being a medieval wizard. But I'm still very interested in seeing it done in Pendragon...again.

I've read/heard that the Player Magican can at time co-opt the group to go on an adventure for him, similar to how Merlin does it to PKS from time to time. But it's been some time since we got any news on the Pendragon front.

[jeffjerwin]

10 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I suspect it's more a case of making them different. Generally players like to have little unque things about characters, and religion is one of the ways characters can be customized in Pendragon. 

Zazamanc is explicitly pagan/non-Christian in Parzival, the source for the place.

Clarification: the paganism or non-Christianity of Fierefiz, Parzival's half-brother and son of the queen of Zazamanc, is an important plot point in that romance. Functionally, Fierefiz serves as a representation of the hope held by more peaceable Crusaders that Muslim leaders like Saphadin, Saladin's brother, would convert to Christianity as part of a settlement of the disputes between the Franks and the Islamic world (this was a possibility pursued by Richard the Lion-heart in c.1189, who wanted him to marry his sister Joan, the queen dowager of Sicily). Fierefiz converts to Christianity in the romance and weds Repanse de Schoye, the Grail bearer (and analogue of Elaine of Carbonek); their son is Prester John. The same notions probably have something to do with 'Li Giromelant's' marriage to Gawaine's sister in Chretien's Grail romance where the marriage averts a war, but Li Giromelant is not explicitly pagan. Gawaine is basically King Richard and Parzival an imagined hero of the House of Brienne-Ramerupt, which had secured the throne of Jerusalem by marriage after the Third Crusade.

Thus Zazamanc's symbolic religion is very Orientalized and fictional. Fierefiz's first wife is the princess of Tribabilot (a distorted name derived from Patalibothra or Pataliputra in Classical India).

Zazamanc floats geographically somewhere between Egypt, Baghdad, and India, as it is essentially a proxy for the East as a whole. Saphadin and Saladin ruled Syria and Egypt. It's not known where the place name came from but it was mentioned in passing in the Nibelungenlied, in association with Arabia and Azagouc (the latter may be derived from an Arabic name for the Straits of Gibraltar).

Edited January 16, 2020 by jeffjerwin
autocorrect, you bastard

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Zazamanc is explicitly pagan/non-Christian in Parzival, the source for the place.

Which is probably why it was included in K&L instead of some other appropriate culture. Often in KAP we had a choice of  cultures to use in a region. 

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Zazamanc floats geographically somewhere between Egypt, Baghdad, and India, as it is essentially a proxy for the East as a whole. Saphadin and Saladin ruled Syria and Egypt. It's not known where the place name came from but it was mentioned in passing in the Nibelungenlied, in association with Arabia and Azagouc (the latter may be derived from an Arabic name for the Straits of Gibraltar).

Which makes it both acceptable and safe to include. By not really representing any one culture it doesn't really reflect upon any real culture.

[theWoozle]

Considering the more recent move of having the Fae take a stronger role in KAP games, I wouldn't be surprised if a BOOK OF THE FAE is at least under consideration

[mandrill_one]

9 hours ago, theWoozle said:

Considering the more recent move of having the Fae take a stronger role in KAP games, I wouldn't be surprised if a BOOK OF THE FAE is at least under consideration

I'd definitely LOVE to see it published.

[soltakss]

On 1/11/2020 at 4:56 PM, Atgxtg said:

The thing that the authors would need to tap dance around is Islam. Because that faith has severe restrictions to how it can be referred to in text and illustration, and because certain practitioners of it would take extreme action upon anyone who broke those tenets, it is probably best avoided in an RPG, especially in one such as Pendragon. We don't want anybody to be under a death sentence for writing an RPG supplement.

I have covered Islam in a couple of Merrie England books for various RPG Systems and have had no issues.

Obviously, Chaosium is far bigger than me or Alephtar Games, so would be higher profile. But, if you cover the religion sensitively and are perfectly clear that this does not relate to real world Islam, then things might be OK.

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I have covered Islam in a couple of Merrie England books for various RPG Systems and have had no issues.

Obviously, Chaosium is far bigger than me or Alephtar Games, so would be higher profile. But, if you cover the religion sensitively and are perfectly clear that this does not relate to real world Islam, then things might be OK.

Yeah it's one of those situation where an author doesn't want to offend anybody but also doesn't want to ignore what is a bit influence on the culture of a people. It's a bit easier with Christian because Christians accept that a lot of bad things were done in the Church's name, especially before the industrial revolution. 

Now the Pnedragon camapign is technically set ina time before the founding of Islam, but it has alot of medieval anachronisms, including knights going to fight in the Holy Land. 

[Morien]

28 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Now the Pnedragon camapign is technically set ina time before the founding of Islam, but it has alot of medieval anachronisms, including knights going to fight in the Holy Land. 

Yes, although that is not necessarily a problem... The Byzantines and the Sassanids were butting heads over Middle East for centuries. You could easily recast this 'crusade' to going to help the Byzantines against the Sassanids. Besides, the Crusade is pretty much just a sideshow/epilogue, anyway. It is not like in Charlemagne where the Saracens are an ever-present issue.

Personally, I would be happier with polytheistic pre-Islamic Berbers and Moors, and Zoroastrian Sassanid Persia. There is not enough Zoroastrian love in the RPGs.

(Besides, the Zorastrians have one of the most kickass opening intros in:

 

 

Yes, I know the inspiration here is Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathrustra, which has very very little to do Zoroastrianism nor its founder, Zarathrustra. Kickass music by Strauss, nevertheless.)

Edited January 17, 2020 by Morien