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RichardA

What's Next For Pendragon?

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@creativehum I'll say this, my player love the BoK&L. I've had Aquitainians, Irish, Romans, Cymrics, Saxons, and even multiple Picts! None of the more exotic cultures as I've only played in the early years when it's hard to justify their coming to Britain. I was interested in this topic, so I asked a few yesterday and all of them were very positive about the cultural skills. They really enjoy the customization options the book offers and enjoy how it differentiates between their characters. We've had a great time with it.

@Morien It's funny you mention that! I just was looking through KAP 4E as I may actually get to play in my first game and someone was talking about being a magician and noticed that Occitanians were one of the main cultures and the Aquitainians were not. Does anyone know what prompted their addition? I mean it makes sense, you can hardly imagine the lands of Ban and Bors being culturally Occitanians or Germanic Frank's. 

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21 minutes ago, Username said:

 It's funny you mention that! I just was looking through KAP 4E as I may actually get to play in my first game and someone was talking about being a magician and noticed that Occitanians were one of the main cultures and the Aquitainians were not. Does anyone know what prompted their addition? I mean it makes sense, you can hardly imagine the lands of Ban and Bors being culturally Occitanians or Germanic Frank's. 

Stereotype of Occitanians in 4e: "The Occitanian stereotype is that of a refined courtier, interested in all the latest courtly fashions, including romance. Occitanians are wealthy, comfortable, and stylish. Gaul is the center of romantic poetry which will spread to all the Arthurian lands, and its natives are its staunchest adherents."

Stereotype of Aquitanians in K&L:

"Stereotype: Arrogant continental nobility, even a little soft since they so prefer the ways of love.
Self Image: Sophisticated continental nobility, where noblesse oblige is a virtue of the nobles, who wisely and benevolently oversee their vassals of all classes.
Let’s Be Practical: These are sophisticated, cultured people, able to charm, make poetry and read. They are from the land of Sir Lancelot."
 
Lancelot's Culture in 4e character sheet: "Occitan"
 
Hence, 4e Occitan = K&L Aquitanian.
 
As for why the name change was made, I was not involved yet in that, but I would imagine that as the start time got pushed back to 485 in 5e, Greg decided to make the world more akin to historical late 5th century, too, hence the mentions of Visigoths and Ostrogoths and Franks. Very striking is if you look at the 'French' names in K&L (actually Frankish) and compare with the French names in 3e/4e (more medieval French names).
 
 
 
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3 hours ago, creativehum said:

I'm really glad we kept this conversation going, because I see your point and concern now. I'm still not sure if I think your concerns are warranted. But I could see a Player new to the game saying, "Oh, I see, the Cymrics, don't do Romance. They're 'fighters.'"

The reason I pushed this discussion was because I wanted to understand you're point of view. I've never had the chance to put BK&L into play. (I always get players going with Cymric Knights.) And you've given me something to mull. Once more I'm looking at KAP 3e as the springwell for the game, specifically Knights Adventurous (later reprinted in KAP 4e). It sets up almost everything as you have suggested -- starting values set for various cultures, but no "track" for advantage of one quality of knight over another based on that culture.

Thank you all for the discussion, and especially @Morien who had to keep illustrating and discussing his point of view!

Thanks to everyone, too. I didn't really expect to win many converts, but at least I managed to communicate why I dislike those skills, and that counts as a successful roll in my book! :P

And yes, like you point out, we didn't have the cultural speciality skills until K&L, and did just fine with various different cultures.

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Oh, I agree that there was a shift in cultures in KAP5. It's one of t he reasons why I was su\o surprised that people got upset with the idea of basing skills off of APP/2 and DEX/2. If you look at KAP1, 3-4, and 5 you can see that very little has  stayed the same from culture to culture regarding starting skills.

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On 11/29/2019 at 11:36 AM, Morien said:

Thanks to everyone, too. I didn't really expect to win many converts, but at least I managed to communicate why I dislike those skills, and that counts as a successful roll in my book! :P

And yes, like you point out, we didn't have the cultural speciality skills until K&L, and did just fine with various different cultures.

My final thoughts on this sub-topic... and why I appreciate Morien's point-of-view on this matter.

Years ago, when I was digging into Le Morte D'Arthur (because of King Arthur Pendragon) I picked up a copy of Beverly Kennedy's Knighthood in Le Morte D'Arthur.

Here's the description: 

Quote

"Beverley Kennedy puts Malory's concern with knighthood at the very heart of the Morte Darthur. She identifies three types of knight: the Heroic (Gawain), the Worshipful (Tristram and Arthur), and the True (Lancelot, Gareth and the Grail Knights), and argues that this knightly typology creates the thematic unity of the Morte Darthur. It also allows Malory to develop two quite different contexts, one pragmatic and political, the other religious and providential, within which the reader may judge why Arthur's reign ended in catastrophe."

I found the book compelling in regard to Le Morte D'Arthur in general, and KAP specifically. Reading it I saw how Stafford had built a game that would encourage knights to be any of the three types Kennedy suggests, and that playing any of them would make sense in the context of the game.

In my view it should never be obvious or easy to be a Christian Knight or a Chivalrous Knight. There should always be good reasons for PC Knights to reject being Merciful, or wish to avoid being Valorous, or being Arbritrary in a judgement, and so on, with practical rewards on the other side of such a decision: slaying an enemy whose death the PC Knight would benefit from, avoiding a fight that risks the Knight's death even as others charge in, or encouraging a decision that is not Just but works in favor of the Knight's family or Lord, and so on.

If the Referee of a KAP game is not setting choices before a Knight that tempt him to be Cruel, Cowardly, or Arbitray in a very real and meaningful way I think the Referee is falling down on the job!

That this tension exists for any PC Knight all the time is, I think, one of the strengths of the game. And I offer that @Morien's point is that if a Culture becomes responsible for determining whether a night is a political knight, or a warrior-focused knight, and so on, this tension is lessoned because we assume the Knight's temperament on these matters is already fixed and determined. Thus we lose, to some degree, this quality of "What kind of Knight are you?"

So, using the rules from Knights Adventurous we have Knights (as @Morien points out) that might start ahead of the game in one quality or another, but turn out to become a different sort of Knight when all is said and done after years are lived. I do think this open-ended, equal playing field for encouraging types of behavior is one of the strong qualities of KAP -- or at least one of the things I love most about it. 

My thoughts here are, of course, not the final say on the matter. But I see now more what @Morien was getting at. And I do find myself agreeing with him -- especially within the context of Kennedy's book and my love of applying her thoughts to how I would love KAP to play out.

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