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RQ3/Basic Magic - Sorcery


Thalaba

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Basic Magic Sorcery is, from what I understand, pretty much just a re-print of Third Edition Runequest sorcery (maybe with some minor changes?).

Now, when I hear criticisms of RQ3, the one I hear the most is that Sorcery needed fixing. I'm now at a point in my campaign where I am in a position to use it (as is, or tweaked). But before I do I'd like to hear from you - just what is wrong (mechanically speaking, of course) with RQ3/Basic Magic Sorcery?

Thalaba

"Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb

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Basic Magic Sorcery is, from what I understand, pretty much just a re-print of Third Edition Runequest sorcery (maybe with some minor changes?).

Now, when I hear criticisms of RQ3, the one I hear the most is that Sorcery needed fixing. I'm now at a point in my campaign where I am in a position to use it (as is, or tweaked). But before I do I'd like to hear from you - just what is wrong (mechanically speaking, of course) with RQ3/Basic Magic Sorcery?

Thalaba

I never got to see the extremes of RQ sorcery, but here's what I remember:

1. It took a very, very long time to get competent. Many skills, which could only improve through study.

2. Sorcerers tended to turtle up every few weeks (see 3), and spend all their Magic Points to throw all their best boost[X]+intensity+duration+multispell, and then have nothing worth casting during an actual adventure (see 4)

3. The only limit to spell casting was free INT, which lead to some very powerful spells (see 2)

4. Sorcery was almost useless in combat.

FWIW - I loved RQ3 sorcery, but even I got frustrated with it, and ended up making some strange Sorcerer/Spirit Magician hybrids: dominating magic spirits or ghosts into enchantments, and only using sorcery to command those spirits or boost my stats/armor (as in step 2).

Edited by Harshax

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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Now, when I hear criticisms of RQ3, the one I hear the most is that Sorcery needed fixing.

This is gamer hyperbole. there is nothing broken about RQIII Sorcery, RAW. It is, however, a magic system whose exact features and effects on the game are not immediately obvious, or intuitive, and many people never managed to comfortably reconcile their preconceptions of the system with how it actually works in play.

I'm now at a point in my campaign where I am in a position to use it (as is, or tweaked). But before I do I'd like to hear from you - just what is wrong (mechanically speaking, of course) with RQ3/Basic Magic Sorcery?

It's really not a system for an adventuring mage. It mechanically reinforces the mage as sedentary, spending long periods of time preparing and casting spells: it thus is excellent at producing "evil wizzard in tower with minions", and in the right campaign can work very well. The GM does need to be on top of their time keeping however, as PC or NPC mages who spend a week casting season long spells need careful time keeping.

Specific mechanical stumbling blocks vary with personal taste. My biggest bug bear was free INT: it is fiddly to administer and I prefer to use skill levels to govern casting and manipulation, as it seems more sensible that a skilled caster of Palsy (85%) can manipulate their spell MORE than a less skilled caster who knows fewer spells.

Cheers,

Nick

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Back in the day I played a sorcerer only a few times, myself, and never really got to explore the rules fully. I did play him as a combat mage who cast a lot of protection, damage boost, and palsy spells. It never occured to me that he should spend much time casting long term spells - I'm not sure why that was. I found Free Int very limiting at the time, but it was so long ago now. I also played with using illusory touch as a ranged weapon.

Harshax: It's interesting that you say that Free Int is the only limit. I have heard it argued that it is TOO limiting, and this makes me wonder how much campaign style factors into it all.

This 'turtling' you describe - was this due in part to the use of Ceremony to boost spell casting chances? Is this only possible if the sorcerer has access to magic point storage? If you had neither, would this still be the way sorcerers would work? Would a few more combat-oriented spells help this? Are the durations too long - leading to this effect?

wbcreighton: I have done, thanks. It's not really a good match for my campaign, though. The various schools of sorcery is not the effect I'm going for, and I'm not sure I want all the minor manipulations. Does he discuss the RAW sorcery in his pre-amble? - I can't remember. For the record, I've also looked at RQ4:AIG, David Cake's version, Pete Maranci's modifications, and at least one or two other versions of sorcery. These are, in part, what alerted me to the idea that people think sorcery needs 'fixing' - because so many have tried. All these revised sorceries make assumptions about setting and play style that might not be appropriate for me, which is why I wanted to step back from those and begin the discussion at the beginning. Before I adopt a variation on sorcery (or make up my own), I want to know why I'm doing it, or even if I need to.

Nick: Thanks for your input. Your last point is quite interesting and especially worth considering.

What would it take to get the wizard out of the tower? What if Duration was drastically changed (which is what Sandy P. did - changing it to persistence). Suppose it was reduced so that the longest duration not requiring a POW input was only a day or two?

Did sorcery only work this way because the setting provided access to intellect spirits and magic point matrices? If these (and the Ceremony skill) did not exist in the setting, would this situation still exist?

As an aside, the text of the sample of play from the RQ3 deluxe box has the sorceror, Nikolos, casting 8 and 12 point spells. Do these sound very powerful to you, or normally powerful. He is portrayed (in that bit of text) as a combat mage, which is interesting.

Thanks,

Thalaba

"Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb

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This 'turtling' you describe - was this due in part to the use of Ceremony to boost spell casting chances? Is this only possible if the sorcerer has access to magic point storage? If you had neither, would this still be the way sorcerers would work? Would a few more combat-oriented spells help this? Are the durations too long - leading to this effect?
I think sorcerers tended to turtle so they could safely use all their available magic points at one time. With a 16 INT, and all spells bound into enchantments or your familiar, their is a variety of Intensity 5 spells that can be cast, with a duration of 2 weeks. If you can throw as many of these spells as possible in one day, you turtle 1 day in 14.

As your available MP total goes up (especially if you've been binding POW Spirits), you can afford to reduce the Duration while increasing Intensity. I've managed to play characters that walked around with intensity 9 boosts to all characteristics, major weapons, armor, etc. with durations that lasted around 3 days. Which is a strange result if you ask me - all this studious work to turn your character into a combat monster.

The additional skills of Ease and Speed help mages be more effective in combat.

I think Sandy got it almost right with using Persistence for duration, but ultimately, the idea is a little too fiddly, and has the same result. I have some ideas how to fix the duration thing, without using Persistence, but I'll have to get back to you on that. My battery is about to die.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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It's really not a system for an adventuring mage. It mechanically reinforces the mage as sedentary, spending long periods of time preparing and casting spells: it thus is excellent at producing "evil wizzard in tower with minions", and in the right campaign can work very well. The GM does need to be on top of their time keeping however, as PC or NPC mages who spend a week casting season long spells need careful time keeping.

I'm not sure this is really the case, though YMMV. I've been in a couple of campaigns where the Wizards were very effective adventurers, and were not bad in combat, though were certainly not the mobile artillery from that other game. I think it has more to spells chosen and creativity on the part of the player than anything else. Palsy or Venom in combat can do wonders. Also, in one campaign we ignored the restrictions weapons training by magic types, so in that game the Wizard could defend themselves if nessesary.

Specific mechanical stumbling blocks vary with personal taste. My biggest bug bear was free INT: it is fiddly to administer and I prefer to use skill levels to govern casting and manipulation, as it seems more sensible that a skilled caster of Palsy (85%) can manipulate their spell MORE than a less skilled caster who knows fewer spells.

Cheers,

Nick

This was always our groups biggest issue. While Free-INT should be used to limit what a Wizard has available at hand, its somewhat odd as a limiter to manipulation. The usual fix seems to be Spell Skill /10 for manipulation ability, though I have also heard of Spell Skill /5. The 85% Palsy Nick mentioned above could be manipulated by 9 points. I would also suggest that in BRP we might suggest this could be manipulated further, but at a Difficult chance.

SDLeary

Edited by SDLeary
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I have to say that the RQIII Wizard is a very fun character to play. Emerging unskated from first adventures, and with a moderately friendly GM, you can really create your style of spells. The only limit is your fantasy and creativity. Often the wizard play become a main theme in the evening (search for components, analysing strange artifacts, bypassing magical defences, researching old tomes, ecc...)...Try an adept in a semi-high level campaign and you will have lot of good moments. And if you love the clash of titans try a True Rokari Wizard!

(all imho)

Ciao

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I think Sandy got it almost right with using Persistence for duration, but ultimately, the idea is a little too fiddly, and has the same result. I have some ideas how to fix the duration thing, without using Persistence, but I'll have to get back to you on that. My battery is about to die.

I would very much like to see that. Thanks.

Thalaba

"Tell me what you found, not what you lost" Mesopotamian proverb

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I would very much like to see that.

In thinking about it all day, my idea is sort of narrativist. The idea is rudimentary, so be kind.

What I want to achieve is a removal on the dependence of off-scene spell casting/turtling. This style of play creates a vicious circle of POW/Magic Point acquisition and further off-scene spell-casting.

First, I'd get rid of the Duration skill, and replace it with this idea:

There's only 3 or 4 durations for sorcery:

1. Instant

2. Scene

3. Persistent

4. Timeless

Instant and Scene are pretty much self explanatory. Instant spells are spells in which cannot have duration. Scene spells are those with duration. They last until combat is over, one or more skill attempts are performed, as long as the player is running in and out of the burning building to save his comrades, etc.

Persistent spells are those spells that the sorcerer has on, all the time. The character that insists on have Damage Boost 5 on his dagger, having skin of life while traveling to the bottom of the sea [which should have a duration greater than a scene, even if completely uneventful]. Each such spell in effect temporarily reduce the character's Free INT by 1.

Timeless (also called the story spell) - these are spells that last for years, or at the very least the life time of the caster: a blessed field, an evocation of water inside a dry well. These require permanent sacrifices 1 POW. While Timeless, they can be dispelled using the normal routine.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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A Multispell of Fly, Animate (Metal) and Damage Boosting 10 on your dagger can do even more wonders, and it costs less PP per potential damage done :D

Damage Boosting was generally the spell of choice, but applied to one of the weapons of a fighter type. Palsy was the spell of choice for the Wizards own defense as his weapons skills were sub par; in the first long campaign at least. :D

SDLeary

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In thinking about it all day, my idea is sort of narrativist. The idea is rudimentary, so be kind.

What I want to achieve is a removal on the dependence of off-scene spell casting/turtling. This style of play creates a vicious circle of POW/Magic Point acquisition and further off-scene spell-casting.

First, I'd get rid of the Duration skill, and replace it with this idea:

There's only 3 or 4 durations for sorcery:

1. Instant

2. Scene

3. Persistent

4. Timeless

Instant and Scene are pretty much self explanatory. Instant spells are spells in which cannot have duration. Scene spells are those with duration. They last until combat is over, one or more skill attempts are performed, as long as the player is running in and out of the burning building to save his comrades, etc.

Persistent spells are those spells that the sorcerer has on, all the time. The character that insists on have Damage Boost 5 on his dagger, having skin of life while traveling to the bottom of the sea [which should have a duration greater than a scene, even if completely uneventful]. Each such spell in effect temporarily reduce the character's Free INT by 1.

Timeless (also called the story spell) - these are spells that last for years, or at the very least the life time of the caster: a blessed field, an evocation of water inside a dry well. These require permanent sacrifices 1 POW. While Timeless, they can be dispelled using the normal routine.

How would one make a Scene spell Persistent? Or would there be different spells in this case?

Timeless spells should also require some sort of Ritual, and thus time, to invoke.

SDLeary

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How would one make a Scene spell Persistent? Or would there be different spells in this case?

A mage stands before the grand doors of the city courthouse, through which he must head to defend his comrades who have wrongly been accused of murder. He casts an Intensity 10 Boost CHA spell. By default, this is a temporal spell, and will expire at the end of the scene.

The GM rules that the court hearing will be 1 scene. If, based on the actions of the defendants or the mage, the court hearing becomes exceedingly drawn out, the GM may decide that the scene is over and at some point through the proceedings, the Boost CHA spell ends.

The mage, having returned from successfully getting a noble's wayward son out of prison is invited to a lavish party which will likely go on several days. Expecting a variety of decadent pleasures, as well as a chance to rub shoulders with the elite of the city, the mage decides to cast a persistent Intensity 10 Boost CHA spell. The spell will remain in effect until dispelled or the mage wills it. In addition to the 10 MP for casting the spell, the mage's Free INT is reduced by [x] for as long as the spell is maintained.

Timeless spells should also require some sort of Ritual, and thus time, to invoke.

The mage, on behalf of the accused, has promised recompense for injuries which befell a farmer who was nothing but a hapless bystander to the melee which took place in the tavern on the night in question. The farmer, being horribly scarred due to a fire caused by spilt oil and spirits , rightfully demanded recompense. The mage offered to restore a semblence of beauty [he has not regenerative magic]. He decides to cast a Timeless Intensity5 Boost CHA spell. This requires a [x] hour long ritual, and the sacrifice of 1 point of POW. The spell will remain in existance until it is dispelled.

How do you like that?

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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Instant and Scene are pretty much self explanatory. Instant spells are spells in which cannot have duration. Scene spells are those with duration. They last until combat is over, one or more skill attempts are performed, as long as the player is running in and out of the burning building to save his comrades, etc.

Definitely better than having X rounds of duration. After all, why should a spell duration be predictable in terms of seconds?

Persistent spells are those spells that the sorcerer has on, all the time. The character that insists on have Damage Boost 5 on his dagger, having skin of life while traveling to the bottom of the sea [which should have a duration greater than a scene, even if completely uneventful]. Each such spell in effect temporarily reduce the character's Free INT by 1.

A variation of Sandy's Sorcery. But it has the same limit as basic Sorcery, Free INT. Better use Presence, which starts as high as Free INT (the Vessel vow) but gets up as the Sorcerer becomes more powerful.

All in all, this works rather fine. It could become a good alternate rule for both BRP and MRQ Sorcery.

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The mage, having returned from successfully getting a noble's wayward son out of prison is invited to a lavish party which will likely go on several days. Expecting a variety of decadent pleasures, as well as a chance to rub shoulders with the elite of the city, the mage decides to cast a persistent Intensity 10 Boost CHA spell. The spell will remain in effect until dispelled or the mage wills it. In addition to the 10 MP for casting the spell, the mage's Free INT is reduced by [x] for as long as the spell is maintained.

I understand the effect, but how are you working with it mechanically. Is Persistance a skill/art? While Free INT is reduced by X for the duration of the spell, are there any penalties for trying to cast a Scene spell as a Persistant one? Difficult roll perhaps? In your example above, the impression is that the mage simply states that he's going to do it, player rolls for normal success vs the spell skill.

The mage, on behalf of the accused, has promised recompense for injuries which befell a farmer who was nothing but a hapless bystander to the melee which took place in the tavern on the night in question. The farmer, being horribly scarred due to a fire caused by spilt oil and spirits , rightfully demanded recompense. The mage offered to restore a semblence of beauty [he has not regenerative magic]. He decides to cast a Timeless Intensity5 Boost CHA spell. This requires a [x] hour long ritual, and the sacrifice of 1 point of POW. The spell will remain in existance until it is dispelled.

How do you like that?

I love the concept of this. For something like this though, the cost should probably be more than a single point of POW. Imagine a Damage Boost 10, Timeless, and it only costs 1 POW.

Something along the lines of a Warding would be handled how? Instant (actually cast when tripped)? Persistent (mage keeps active)?

A mage being able to keep a spell active is great, but I'm not sure it would actually be a replacement for Duration in all instances.

SDLeary

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I love the concept of this. For something like this though, the cost should probably be more than a single point of POW. Imagine a Damage Boost 10, Timeless, and it only costs 1 POW.

Something along the lines of a Warding would be handled how? Instant (actually cast when tripped)? Persistent (mage keeps active)?

A mage being able to keep a spell active is great, but I'm not sure it would actually be a replacement for Duration in all instances.

What I did in the magic system I designed for Gwenthia was that a spell could be maintained for as long as the caster wished to support it, however the MPs invested in its casting would not begin to regenerate until the spell was dropped.

The same mechanic was brought over into the Rune Sorcery system for Elric of Melnibone. Thus a sorcerer can continuously maintain up to his maximum POW in spells but the more of his MP pool he tied up, the fewer remaining MPs he has to cast other spells as needed.

For permanent spells you had to sacrifice the equivalent MP cost in POW, to make the glyph, rune, whatever eternal.

Spell magnitudes were limited by the skill in that spell.

It was a simple system, but forced sorcerers to think both tactically and strategically. Do I walk round like a tank, but be able to cast no other magic, or do I keep back the majority of my magical strength for flexibility and remain vulnerable? Of course I designed it for a game where MP storage didn't exist, so it might not work so well if such things abound. ;)

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What I did in the magic system I designed for Gwenthia was that a spell could be maintained for as long as the caster wished to support it, however the MPs invested in its casting would not begin to regenerate until the spell was dropped.

Consider that idea stolen

Al

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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What I did in the magic system I designed for Gwenthia was that a spell could be maintained for as long as the caster wished to support it, however the MPs invested in its casting would not begin to regenerate until the spell was dropped.

The same mechanic was brought over into the Rune Sorcery system for Elric of Melnibone. Thus a sorcerer can continuously maintain up to his maximum POW in spells but the more of his MP pool he tied up, the fewer remaining MPs he has to cast other spells as needed.

For permanent spells you had to sacrifice the equivalent MP cost in POW, to make the glyph, rune, whatever eternal.

Thats been my take on it. Makes a lot of sense when making something permanent; essentially an enchantment.

Spell magnitudes were limited by the skill in that spell.

Spell /10?

SDLeary

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Spell /10?

Spell/10 is a nice number, but you should think carefully about which divisor would match the power level in your campaign.

It should also be noted that some sorcery spells have mismatched effects depending on their intensity. I.e. a fly spell would be buggered by skill/10, whereas a damage boosting is very nasty. So some spell modifications may be necessary. ;)

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Spell/10 is a nice number, but you should think carefully about which divisor would match the power level in your campaign.

Very true. This seems to be the most common number based on experience. I've also seen Spell/5 and Spell/6, just nowhere near as often. The games around here all seem to be of the low level, gritty type.

It should also be noted that some sorcery spells have mismatched effects depending on their intensity. I.e. a fly spell would be buggered by skill/10, whereas a damage boosting is very nasty. So some spell modifications may be necessary. ;)

Spell modifications are always needed. Even with RAW. ;-)

SDLeary

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1. It took a very, very long time to get competent. Many skills, which could only improve through study.

This was the first half of the problem; unlike casual spirit magic users, casual sorcery use was almost pointless; the chance of getting spells off was so low that the utility was almost nonexistent in many cases.

2. Sorcerers tended to turtle up every few weeks (see 3), and spend all their Magic Points to throw all their best boost[X]+intensity+duration+multispell, and then have nothing worth casting during an actual adventure (see 4)

And this got incredibly ugly once you had a sorcery professional who either rolled well or had progressed considerably; Damage Resistance was somewhat tolerable when cast on everyone because of the way it worked, but moderate levels of damage boost running on everyone for weeks was really problematic.

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This 'turtling' you describe - was this due in part to the use of Ceremony to boost spell casting chances? Is this only possible if the sorcerer has access to magic point storage? If you had neither, would this still be the way sorcerers would work? Would a few more combat-oriented spells help this? Are the durations too long - leading to this effect?

Limited availability of magic points would certainly have made some of the long duration boosts harder, but not impossible; you'd just have needed to do them over multiple days so you could recover them. But since it was quite possible to run long duration spells for weeks, that wasn't going to make the problem go away. And it would have made some of the problems with getting use out of a dedicated sorcerer _during_ combat worse.

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Limited availability of magic points would certainly have made some of the long duration boosts harder, but not impossible; you'd just have needed to do them over multiple days so you could recover them. But since it was quite possible to run long duration spells for weeks, that wasn't going to make the problem go away. And it would have made some of the problems with getting use out of a dedicated sorcerer _during_ combat worse.

That is the problem with doubling durations. The 12 magic point in duration is essentially as good as the preceding 11. So from a player's perspective, if you are going to blow 20 magic points for a long term spell, why not spend another point and have it last twice as long? Especially since the MP replenish much faster than the spell wears off.

I think Pete's idea of "locking up the magic points" while the spell is up would help. At least until you factor in POW storage devices and apprentices who can replenish them.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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