RQ3/Basic Magic - Sorcery

[Atgxtg]

Of course there is the other option... which is you don't bother trying to dispel the magic at all. You just get big swords, run at the other side and hack them to pieces

Often suicidal against a good sorcerer. If he was doing long term enchantments for all this stuff, he probably has a lot of spare MPs, and can put up enough damage resistance or do enough direct damage to deal with the big swords.

The long term stuff is just nasty because it essentially translates into a constant +2 or +2 effect (or more). If everone on one side has Damage Boosting 4 or thier weapons, they basically act like they are using greatsword and shield. And since the MPs have been regenerated, it's like a freebie.

Although, by this point, the sorcerer has probably figured out enough about the rules to start putting armoring enchantments of the other characters too.

[Kloster]

The problem was you'd need to have a pretty huge one, and do it multiple times.

Example in point: You have someone who's got Damage Boost 4's with a 4 week duration up on everyone (likely through a combination of keeping most of his Int Free by using Intellect Spirits, and having the actual spell on a Matrix, but it isn't impossible by any means to simply have the full Free Int with most of your spells fobbed off on Int Spirits) totalling out to a 16 point spell. There are three ways this can be Dispelled:

1. Dispel Magic (spirit magic): Almost no one is going to have a Dispel Magic 16; its just massively huge and expensive, assuming you can even find it.

2. Dismiss Magic (divine magic): More doable, but still requires 8 points of divine magic for each target you want to dispel it off of. Not likely to even have that many, and you're sure not going to have enough to do it on a whole 4-6 player group.

3. Nullify Magic (sorcery): The most practical, because of the way Intensity works and the fact its a resistance value roll, but to have a significant chance you still have to crank it up to 12 or more, and that's time consuming and doesn't have some of the tricks you can play with the long duration buffs because you have to do it in combat.

One of the side effects of these long durations is that these spells are very hard to knock down.

The problem is, that's a massive "if".

IIRC, you just need to dispel Intensity, not counting Duration, and Dispel magic 3 (sufficient to dispel a 4 point spell) is quite common (at least for us).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

...

Although, by this point, the sorcerer has probably figured out enough about the rules to start putting armoring enchantments of the other characters too.

With the time needed for the sorcerer's character to reach this level, the other characters will have about 50 points of divine magic (or a 50 pow fetch, if shaman), and are in the same league.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

As it was (the exemple I gave is taken from one of our game) rare to have more than 2 to 3 combats per day, the linked power spirit was sufficient not to bother, and the resulting magic point cost was the same.

But it wasn't.

What I mean by that is that in the case you mention, every person who did this had to have his own spirit, and used up its magic points at the time. In the case of the sorcery spell, the magic points were expended weeks ago, and the spirit long since recharged. As such, in the equivelent situation you'd have no need of the second power spirit at all, or (as we discussed earlier) do both. Or alternatively, have the character with the Bladesharp spent his power on something else (armor enchantment, say).

Also true, but this spell can also be cast by another member of the team (anc can, with lot of extension), have the same effect.

But then, the Extension spells tie up sacrifice power, too, and to do so to the whole party requires quite a bit of divine magic there--sacrifice power that could again have been used for other things.

I think we pushed quite hard: the bladesharp matrix I was refering was a bladesharp 8. We were not always playing in Glorantha, but were in most of the RQ campaign I took place.

I meant pushing hard on the sorcery system specifically.

And yes, in all our campaigns, social and religious constraints (not part of the rules, but of the world) were taken in account.

My only real point is that a Gloranthan campaign will have some built in constraints on sorcerers (because of the hostility to them present in the common Dragon Pass/Prax-centric Gloranthan campaign) that isn't present automatically--or even by expectation--outside of Glorantha.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

With the time needed for the sorcerer's character to reach this level, the other characters will have about 50 points of divine magic (or a 50 pow fetch, if shaman), and are in the same league.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Not really. The sorcerer needs far less enchantments to produce that, and can start out suprisingly close to being able to do it as a starting character otherwise just by having good attributes and getting a high starting age roll.

Basically its a consequence of a fundamental difference in the three magics:

1. The biggest part of a divine mage's capability comes from power sacrificed;

2. The biggest part of a spirit mage's power comes from spirits available and spells learned.

3. The biggest part of a sorcerer's ability comes from skill.

Only one of those inflates all that noticeably from good initial rolls, and only one elevates much from training time.

[Kloster]

Not really. The sorcerer needs far less enchantments to produce that, and can start out suprisingly close to being able to do it as a starting character otherwise just by having good attributes and getting a high starting age roll.

Basically its a consequence of a fundamental difference in the three magics:

1. The biggest part of a divine mage's capability comes from power sacrificed;

2. The biggest part of a spirit mage's power comes from spirits available and spells learned.

3. The biggest part of a sorcerer's ability comes from skill.

Only one of those inflates all that noticeably from good initial rolls, and only one elevates much from training time.

According to my experience in playing or meeting sorcerors, I think the sorceror is the one that requires the most enchantments, not the least.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

According to my experience in playing or meeting sorcerors, I think the sorceror is the one that requires the most enchantments, not the least.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

They may be able to get the most out of certain enchantments, but they still don't need as much sacrificed power as divine casters, and its debateable whether spirit mages are actually less needing of enchantments than sorcerers; in any case, the "primary" spirit mages (shamen) tend to still get a lot of their power out of power sacrifices in the form of inflating their fetch.

Neither divine mages nor spirit mages get that much out of training, however; their primary coin of the realm is power or spirit spell learning (the latter of which is much more haphazard than simply increasing a spell or spell alteration skill)

[Kloster]

They may be able to get the most out of certain enchantments, but they still don't need as much sacrificed power as divine casters, and its debateable whether spirit mages are actually less needing of enchantments than sorcerers; in any case, the "primary" spirit mages (shamen) tend to still get a lot of their power out of power sacrifices in the form of inflating their fetch.

Neither divine mages nor spirit mages get that much out of training, however; their primary coin of the realm is power or spirit spell learning (the latter of which is much more haphazard than simply increasing a spell or spell alteration skill)

On those points, we agree.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

As most Divine Mages have access to some Spirit Magic too, especially in Glorantha, I think the balance of power isn't quite as tilted towards the Sorcery as it might appear.

Probably the most powerful mages in an RQ Glorantha setting would be the Lunars, since they are Divine Mages with Spirit Magic that they can augment. Since on a point for point basis Spirit Magic is usually more powerful than Sorcery, a Lunar can probably fry a Sorcerer for fewer MPs, and be able to call of Divine Magic too.

[Kloster]

As most Divine Mages have access to some Spirit Magic too, especially in Glorantha, I think the balance of power isn't quite as tilted towards the Sorcery as it might appear.

Probably the most powerful mages in an RQ Glorantha setting would be the Lunars, since they are Divine Mages with Spirit Magic that they can augment. Since on a point for point basis Spirit Magic is usually more powerful than Sorcery, a Lunar can probably fry a Sorcerer for fewer MPs, and be able to call of Divine Magic too.

Perfectly true.

You can also add that Carmanians (which are part of the Lunar Empire) have also access to sorcery, in addition to manipulated spirit magic and divine magic.

Runequesteemnt votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

With the time needed for the sorcerer's character to reach this level, the other characters will have about 50 points of divine magic (or a 50 pow fetch, if shaman), and are in the same league.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Not really. The big edge that sorcerers have is in long term effects. The Sorcerer can have a bunch of long term spells up, and still be at full POW/MPs.

Also the Divine and Spirit mages must devote their POW and spell learning to specific spells, while the sorcerer is only limited by his Free INT and skill ratings, giving him a lot more flexibility.

Again, lunar mages get the best of all worlds.

[Nightshade]

As most Divine Mages have access to some Spirit Magic too, especially in Glorantha, I think the balance of power isn't quite as tilted towards the Sorcery as it might appear.

Well, one of the reasons I've tried to stay out of Glorantha on this topic is it muddies a lot of issues, even moreso when you have to dealw ith some of the exotic magic variants that appeared in Gods of Glorantha like the Lunar Magic.

In core RQ3, cults had access to very limited spirit magic, usually just 3-4 types of spirit spell, and that was considerably more limiting to them, especially at the priestly level (dabblers could sometimes fish in both the ones available to their cult and ones acquired elsewhere, but then they got into the whole spotty availability of spells from purely spirit magic sources (aka shamen).

Probably the most powerful mages in an RQ Glorantha setting would be the Lunars, since they are Divine Mages with Spirit Magic that they can augment. Since on a point for point basis Spirit Magic is usually more powerful than Sorcery, a Lunar can probably fry a Sorcerer for fewer MPs, and be able to call of Divine Magic too.

The only downside to the Lunar Magic was its duration didn't ramp up as fast, which meant the longterm buffs weren't as painful as I recall. But I don't think I ever saw it in use, so...

[Kloster]

Not really. The big edge that sorcerers have is in long term effects. The Sorcerer can have a bunch of long term spells up, and still be at full POW/MPs.

...

Agreed.

...

Also the Divine and Spirit mages must devote their POW and spell learning to specific spells, while the sorcerer is only limited by his Free INT and skill ratings, giving him a lot more flexibility.

...

I agree. I was just telling that the sorcery part is not more problematic than what can be done by the other magician of same power level. But flexibility is of course a big advantage for the sorceror, more in my mind than the long duration spells.

...

Again, lunar mages get the best of all worlds.

Agreed.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

I agree. I was just telling that the sorcery part is not more problematic than hat can be done by the other magician of same power level. But flexibility is of course a big advantage for the sorceror, more in my mind than the long duration spells.

Well, spirit mages have no equivelent to the long term spells, and I'd argue that there's more overhead on the divine equivelent; to get something approximating Damage Boost 4 you're probably talking about one of those Divine spells that acted like pumped up Bladesharps (usually did 10% and +1d4 damage per point as I recall) at 2 points, plus whatever amount of extension is required for an approximate four week duration (which as I recall was a pretty fair bit). Do that for a whole party and that's quite a bit of divine magic, and its divine magic which, in the end, isn't doing anything else. On the other hand, with the sorcerer, its essentially at the price of a spell, and maybe a sorcery matrix to give some extra duration and the necessary spirits (which do double duty for him in other ways).

A divine mage can certainly produce this result, but he has to be somewhat of a specialist to do it (this turns to some extent on how much divine magic you're used to priests having, but since this operating procedure requires about 13 points of divine magic per character just to match what one sorcery spell will do, I'd say you're not going to see too many divine mages who are really going to match it) to say the least, where a sorcerer can do it without otherwise impairing his functionality. That's why I say its rather worse. A priest won't do this sort of thing because it ties up too much resource; the only part of a sorcerer's resource this is really tying up (i.e. that doesn't serve multiple functions for him anyway) is maybe a matrix.

[Atgxtg]

Nightshade,

I agree that Glornatha is a big can of worms as far as the magic systems go. Even the shamen get access to divine magic thanks to cults like Daka Fal.

That said, even outside of Glorantha, the limits on cult magic were not intended to be that, err, limiting. Since most setting use polytheistic pantheons, the ability to get more magic through associated cults is pretty high. That was how most stuff was set up. All fall out of the old Rune/Battle Magic from original RQ. I don7t think either system was really interned to stand by themselves.

The settings that actually ran strong limits, also tended to have less magic overall, and thus avoided most long term spells anyway. When there are only a handful of magicians in a setting, any magic becomes much more powerful.

But as far as your basic premise goes, I think you are spot on. Sorcerers eventually out powered the other magicians.

[Atgxtg]

I agree. I was just telling that the sorcery part is not more problematic than what can be done by the other magician of same power level. But flexibility is of course a big advantage for the sorceror, more in my mind than the long duration spells.

Kloster

I think the sorcery part is "more problematic that what can be dome by the other magicians of the same power level".

For one thing, all the long term stuff is basically a freebie. It does take time and MPS to set up, but that replenishes much easier than Divine spells. So a sorcerer has this up in addition to whatever he can do during an encounter.

Secondly, the other magics are more rididly defined and restricted. Spell progression is very straght forward, and character must learn/sacrifice for each point of effect. New magic start weak, and there is little chance of a spirit mage getting, say Bladesharp 12, without first getting a couple of lower strength versions first. Sorcery, however is limited by FreeINT, so just learning Damage Boosting allows the sorceror to cast any intensity up to his limit.

Spell selection is also much better for the sorceror. Spirit and Divine mages are limited is what types of spells they can cast. That makes them more predictable and less problematic. Even a experienced Priest of Yelm, isn't going to have something like Darkwall. Quite a few of the sorcery spells have no analogues in Spirit or Divine Magic. Form/Set spells can be absolutely devastating if used by a clever sorcerer.

So overall It think the sorcerer is more problematic once he reaches a certain level of skill. IMO, Spririt Mages start strong, but cap off in ability; Divine Mages start good, get some great effects, but progress slowly due to the need to sacrifice POW; sorcerers stat off pathetically weak, but slowly progress in ability until they gain pairity with and eventually surpass the other types of magician.

[Nightshade]

Nightshade,

I agree that Glornatha is a big can of worms as far as the magic systems go. Even the shamen get access to divine magic thanks to cults like Daka Fal.

That said, even outside of Glorantha, the limits on cult magic were not intended to be that, err, limiting. Since most setting use polytheistic pantheons, the ability to get more magic through associated cults is pretty high. That was how most stuff was set up. All fall out of the old Rune/Battle

I have to point out core RQ3 had no discussion of "associated cults" in the Gloranthan sense at all; you're correct that it assumes pantheons, but the only method of accessing the magic of other gods within a pantheon was to become members of each of them, with the associated overhead involved.

Even under those circumstances, there was no guarentee you'd have the range of potential spirit spells that a shamanistic type would.

But as far as your basic premise goes, I think you are spot on. Sorcerers eventually out powered the other magicians.

The sad part was that in other ways sorcery was very unattractive; PCs that weren't specialists but had sorcery as their magic type often found it next to useless between the low casting chance and the penalties from encumberance.

[Kloster]

Well, spirit mages have no equivelent to the long term spells, and I'd argue that there's more overhead on the divine equivelent; to get something approximating Damage Boost 4 you're probably talking about one of those Divine spells that acted like pumped up Bladesharps (usually did 10% and +1d4 damage per point as I recall) at 2 points, plus whatever amount of extension is required for an approximate four week duration (which as I recall was a pretty fair bit). Do that for a whole party and that's quite a bit of divine magic, and its divine magic which, in the end, isn't doing anything else. On the other hand, with the sorcerer, its essentially at the price of a spell, and maybe a sorcery matrix to give some extra duration and the necessary spirits (which do double duty for him in other ways).

A divine mage can certainly produce this result, but he has to be somewhat of a specialist to do it (this turns to some extent on how much divine magic you're used to priests having, but since this operating procedure requires about 13 points of divine magic per character just to match what one sorcery spell will do, I'd say you're not going to see too many divine mages who are really going to match it) to say the least, where a sorcerer can do it without otherwise impairing his functionality. That's why I say its rather worse. A priest won't do this sort of thing because it ties up too much resource; the only part of a sorcerer's resource this is really tying up (i.e. that doesn't serve multiple functions for him anyway) is maybe a matrix.

Like I have already explained, different experiences, that lead to different opinions. I don't think we will agree on the subject.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Nightshade,

I agree that Glornatha is a big can of worms as far as the magic systems go. Even the shamen get access to divine magic thanks to cults like Daka Fal.

That said, even outside of Glorantha, the limits on cult magic were not intended to be that, err, limiting. Since most setting use polytheistic pantheons, the ability to get more magic through associated cults is pretty high. That was how most stuff was set up. All fall out of the old Rune/Battle Magic from original RQ. I don7t think either system was really interned to stand by themselves.

The settings that actually ran strong limits, also tended to have less magic overall, and thus avoided most long term spells anyway. When there are only a handful of magicians in a setting, any magic becomes much more powerful.

But as far as your basic premise goes, I think you are spot on. Sorcerers eventually out powered the other magicians.

Apart on the last sentence, I fully agree here.

More properly, I should say (on the last words) that this can perhaps occur, but after a time that is so long that I have never met somebody that has encountered it.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

...

Spell selection is also much better for the sorceror. Spirit and Divine mages are limited is what types of spells they can cast. That makes them more predictable and less problematic. Even a experienced Priest of Yelm, isn't going to have something like Darkwall. Quite a few of the sorcery spells have no analogues in Spirit or Divine Magic. Form/Set spells can be absolutely devastating if used by a clever sorcerer.

...

Fully agreed on that.

...

So overall It think the sorcerer is more problematic once he reaches a certain level of skill. IMO, Spririt Mages start strong, but cap off in ability; Divine Mages start good, get some great effects, but progress slowly due to the need to sacrifice POW; sorcerers stat off pathetically weak, but slowly progress in ability until they gain pairity with and eventually surpass the other types of magician.

Agreed on most, but at what point do you fix the point when a sorceror surpass the other magic users. In over 20 years of RQ, including a 10 years long campaign, I think I have never reached that point, nor met anybody that has. If this point is reached after 20 years of a weekly game campaign, who cares.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

Like I have already explained, different experiences, that lead to different opinions. I don't think we will agree on the subject.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I do have to say that if your experiences have features divine mages who could feel good about tying up significant points of divine magic per character just to have something analogous to a Bladesharp 4 on them at all times, they have, indeed, been vastly different than mine.

[Nightshade]

Apart on the last sentence, I fully agree here.

More properly, I should say (on the last words) that this can perhaps occur, but after a time that is so long that I have never met somebody that has encountered it.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

The only reason its not possible with a starting sorcerer who's rolled well is he won't have the spirit bindings to support it yet. Other than that, he has to have rolled well on two die rolls; his Intelligence and his starting age. And of course started as a sorcerer itself.

You're correct that a more mediocre sorcerer can take some time, but I have little evidence it'll take as long as the levels of divine magic accrued you seem to find normal.

[Atgxtg]

Agreed on most, but at what point do you fix the point when a sorceror surpass the other magic users. In over 20 years of RQ, including a 10 years long campaign, I think I have never reached that point, nor met anybody that has. If this point is reached after 20 years of a weekly game campaign, who cares.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I7d fix that point well before 20 years (you've been running the same PCs that long). I'd say it happens about the point where the sorcerer:

1) Has at least a 15 INT

2) Achieved mastery level in his magic skills (intensity, duration, etc), and in his major spells.

3) Has a familiar (to free up that FreeINT)

4) Has access to stored POW at least equal to his own POW score.

At that point the sorcerer should be able to out perform the other magicians. Especially in a day-in-day out long term basis. Where or not he actually does depends a lot on the player and how he plays the character. Sorcery rewards prep-work more that the other magics.

[Nightshade]

I7d fix that point well before 20 years (you've been running the same PCs that long). I'd say it happens about the point where the sorcerer:

1) Has at least a 15 INT

2) Achieved mastery level in his magic skills (intensity, duration, etc), and in his major spells.

3) Has a familiar (to free up that FreeINT)

4) Has access to stored POW at least equal to his own POW score.

At that point the sorcerer should be able to out perform the other magicians. Especially in a day-in-day out long term basis. Where or not he actually does depends a lot on the player and how he plays the character. Sorcery rewards prep-work more that the other magics.

That all largely fits my experience.

A sorcerer who doesn't pursue spirit binding may never be a problem this way; but once his skills have reached the requisite levels, it doesn't need many Power Spirits (I'd forgotten the Familiar can take over the spell holding property of Intellect Spirits) for it to be an issue.

Unless, of course, he simply doesn't do it, but one can't make the assumption that'll be the case.

[Atgxtg]

Unless, of course, he simply doesn't do it, but one can't make the assumption that'll be the case.

That is probably the reason for the different experiences. If the sorcerer doesn't do something it won't be a factor.

Of course there are some cute tricks that the other mages can do (like a Storm Bull follower putting Lightwall up in front of some Trolls--the last ting anyone expects to see on the other side of a Lightwall.).