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GMing a Heortling City


Crel

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4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Never seen any reference for hunting rights restrictions in Orlanthi lands, sounds more like norman england, Have you a citation?

 

This method of redistribution is *very* common among hunter-gatherer groups, as well as groups that practice hunting mostly as a side-gig to horticulture, etc. 

There can be a number of rationales for it, such as hunting grounds being collective property, or big game being collective property, or it might be something so simple as the meat needing to be eaten before it goes off, and a single family will struggle to do that alone (and might also struggle to preserve the rest). It's also an opportunity to gain personal prestige, placate people who've given you meat before, etc. Ultimately it's about reciprocity, the basis for most non-market social relations.

It's also, incidentally, how we do moose-hunting where I'm from, due to the moose hunt being organized along the lones of multiple property owning families coming together as a team every fall. The animals killed during this period, regardless of who shot them or on whose property they were shot, need to be divided among the families.

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8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

you really have me confused with this one, do you mind citing it.

it was an example of an unexpected windfall from what is normally a personal possession in a comparatively social-egalitarian society like a band society. Even with chieftains the capitalist ethos of hoarding wealth is strange - the tribe is your protection, you want the tribe to survive. Leveraging power inside the tribe is leveraging social power, not hoarding wealth. It's largely redistributing wealth.

So with the chicken windfall:

This is how a group might shift its focus - for example, going with the Hemshin I've been studying recently, highlander Muslim Armenians ("Hemshin") now grow tea. One person started growing tea, and it made money, so the clan started to grow tea, and it worked, so they started doing it as a group rather than selling wheat and wool for market. (The Turks had industrialised farming elsewhere; farming in the breaktaking but ultimately rocky and vertical mountains is not going to be as successful.)

The Hemshin still continue to herd sheep and cows and go to the yaylak (summer pasturages) during the summer, and people have small gardens with vegetables in it and herbs (chilis, mint, etc.), but most of the group labor is tea growing. There's a bunch of photos on the internet showing their tea kit - special shears attached to a bag. I think some people grow maize because it's kind of effortless and not worth trucking in from Trabzond.

Boston had a halal Hemshin teahouse for several years, in fact. It went out of business about the time they popped the cap off of rents so I think they got ganked by the same wave of devil landlords that left me homeless for two and half years even with a steady monthly income when everyone's rents doubled overnight.

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6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:
 

This method of redistribution is *very* common among hunter-gatherer groups, as well as groups that practice hunting mostly as a side-gig to horticulture, etc. 

There can be a number of rationales for it, such as hunting grounds being collective property, or big game being collective property, or it might be something so simple as the meat needing to be eaten before it goes off, and a single family will struggle to do that alone (and might also struggle to preserve the rest). It's also an opportunity to gain personal prestige, placate people who've given you meat before, etc. Ultimately it's about reciprocity, the basis for most non-market social relations.

There is also the question whether you haul your catch in to the village, or whether you stick it out in your hunting hideout (or possibly lodge) far away from your clan, and consume it over a week or two, or barter some of it away for a new supply of arrow-tips and glue from a settlement nearby that is not part of your clan.

Hunters will turn their prey into pemmican or jerky or venison, and venison includes aging the meat for a while, giving them the opportunity to amass quite a bit of meat, hides, horn and special parts before making their trek back to the clan.

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's also, incidentally, how we do moose-hunting where I'm from, due to the moose hunt being organized along the lones of multiple property owning families coming together as a team every fall. The animals killed during this period, regardless of who shot them or on whose property they were shot, need to be divided among the families.

You are aware that "elk-hunting" means red deer?

But WRT moose hunting, don't you have to buy a license to shoot a moose first?

 

But I am thankful to see a discussion on personal property and clan loans and how the individuals who leave "cash in" their previous efforts when they leave their former workplace to the clan - tilled fields, herds brought through the winter, hay, construction (house, outbuildings, fences...).

For a real world example, what to people leaving a kibbuz get?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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This is going to suck, trying to quote two people over two pages in this software hurts the brain, so I will have to keep it simple... here goes 

 

Kay, back to this particular question... granted it is way off the topic as one hunting in a heortling city might well be a whole ‘nother kettle of fish but still this was a point I questioned in that post,

12 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Never seen any reference for hunting rights restrictions in Orlanthi lands, sounds more like norman england, Have you a citation?

you really have me confused with this one, do you mind citing it.

 

 

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it was an example of an unexpected windfall from what is normally a personal possession in a comparatively social-egalitarian society like a band society. Even with chieftains the capitalist ethos of hoarding wealth is strange - the tribe is your protection, you want the tribe to survive. Leveraging power inside the tribe is leveraging social power, not hoarding wealth. It's largely redistributing wealth.

13 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Essentially, personal belongings - your gear, your knives and shears, your housing, your guns or bows, your regalia, your herb gardens, your couple chickens - are private. Anything that is important is yours. Nobody redistributes your blankets and needles. Catch some hares, you eat them.

Definitely, all personal belongings are private property, this is in the books... citation available upon request

Wealth redistribution I am going to address below...

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This method of redistribution is *very* common among hunter-gatherer groups, as well as groups that practice hunting mostly as a side-gig to horticulture, etc. 

 

1,000 percent agreement, We are talking abut urban heortling folk, though,

 

Botton line, I will say... to sharing...

There are literally pages of text devoted to the concept of generosity, yes it is a tenet of all heortlanders,  canon, hell this is gospel. But that does not mean it is universal. Univerally expected, but like common curtesy, decency and sense in our section of  the marble...well... Our society is in crisis, and dare I say the Sartar culture will need a little care to bring it back to stability... as well.

Heort’s laws might be returning to Sartar but they have been badly bent for over a generation. The laws begin "Among us, we must always hold true...”  Well society is currently disrupted now and it has not held universally true for Sartar for 23 years... While many tribes rebelled, secretly usually, many others sold out to the Lunars. Generosity has put on the shelf to be taken out on occasion for visitors and holidays but not held in the heart.

“Among us, we must always hold true to the Six Social Virtues: Honor, Provision, Defense, Obedience, Justice, and Hospitality.”

— Heort's Laws.

Cheers

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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Basically, if it is your job to provide food or to increase the herd or to harvest grain, and you manage to outdo your plan target/reasonably expected outcome, you will be entitled to a share of that extra outcome. If you breed an especially fine bull, you will get priority stud rights (along with other peoples' priority rights, that is).

Basically, when given a job by the chief or a similar authority, that job-giving authority is entitled to the loot or otherwise success of the task. A hunter sent to make meat for the clan will be expected to bring meat equivalent to the time he is away.

Herders on the transhumant pastures are entitled to the milk or at least the whey from cheese-making, as there is no sensible way to bring that stuff back to the village. But then, it will have been figured into their foodstuff allocation for that time already.

A free person can proclaim their own tasks, outside of "work for the clan", and call in favors to gain some support for this task (e.g. a steed, camp gear, armor, weapons). That way, the person acts as the task-giver, and has a claim to the profits, and a responsibility for the cost and risk of that undertaking. (Which may mean weregeld to be paid...)

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

You are aware that "elk-hunting" means red deer?

But WRT moose hunting, don't you have to buy a license to shoot a moose first?

Yup, hence me specifically using the term "moose" (Alces alces). The "also" in my paragraph was just to mean something like "in addition to how people do it in hunter-gatherer groups, we also practice similar methods in modern societies sometimes", not to imply that elks (ie. North American wapiti, although I didn't know it could also apply to red deer, apparently) and moose are the same animal, which we've been over a few times here before. Not that it really matters for the purposes of this discussion - any large prey is likely to be subject to prestige-sharing.

Over here, each county has a "Game Board" which surveys game numbers and gives out licenses (or quotas, really) to each of the Hunting Teams, so each Hunting Team has to be registered with the government. This really only applies to protected game, there are some animals on which there are no limiting statutes beyond season, iirc. Anyway, it's a collective quota, hence the point on sharing between landowners/team members. 

It's also implicit in the way moose are hunted, with a team of "drivers" who hoot and holler to scare the moose towards a line of shooters. The only way moose can reliably be hunted alone is to set up towers or go out with dogs, but that can take a lot of time, and the moose hunting season is short. Plus, it's nice to get together for a coffee, a hotdog, and a chat with old friends between hunts. Odaylans do not strike me as equally gregarious, and I suspect cattle driving is a better parallel for this kind of "just out with the guys" practice.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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On 11/27/2019 at 1:36 AM, Crel said:
On 11/26/2019 at 2:57 PM, lordabdul said:

Another thing I'm preparing, which you seem to be doing already, is having a pack of index cards with various events, rumours, and encounters. ... In practice, some of those index cards would have events/encounters that highlight what's going on in the world (like your examples), while some would just be local slice of life stuff (kids stealing apples and husbands cheating on their wife and so on)... of course, players being players, you never know what they'll do with it. They might (will?) follow a hook that you originally wrote just as "local colour", and then you have to improvise the beginning of an adventure.

 

I have hundreds of cards with all kinds of colour coded tabs and headings from my first attempt at doing that back in the 80s. there have been a couple of restarts and thoughts of new system, moves have upended and beautifully shuffled any flavour of order I once had (holy shades of the problems inherent in organizing a Lhankor Mhy Library—L-Space anyone?)... Now I have been doing this all on my computer for People Places and things since RQ AiG   was announced in ’16 ish ETA (frig, I just realized my first  attempt on computer data keeping was in the time period of the first RQ AiG (or RQ 4)  back in the 90s with PM 5  and the Claris Works Database...)) and I am now up to over 500 pages of an estimated 1000 or so with currently 201, 817 words.... Yeh, it is a good idea to have an easily accessible source of data at a game... Textures and local colour, impressions and scents... shit, the project is now lookingg bigger than the estimated 1,000 page though... sigh

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

any large prey is likely to be subject to prestige-sharing.

I'll say I'm sorry for the confusion, as an American who knows that elk is a source of confusion between Europeans and North Americans I should have known better than to leave that word hanging

But I'll also say that prestige-sharing is absolutely still a thing. I live in New England and this, this is real. I can't speak for non-poor people elsewhere but when someone shoots a deer or some squirrels on my father's property, it is divvied up. My father refuses the squirrel as he does not need the meat as much as the hunters' families do but he'll take a small cut of the deer portion he is entitled to.

I don't understand the rules because I'm not a hunter, but they are pretty strict. My father doesn't hunt so I think he's the old man portion. He can't really refuse the cut entirely from a deer, so he takes a portion of it. My mother usually makes a stew out of it.

I can't eat red meat so I don't really follow this. Alpha gal syndrome. :-/

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39 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'll say I'm sorry for the confusion, as an American who knows that elk is a source of confusion between Europeans and North Americans I should have known better than to leave that word hanging

 

Once you have seen and heard the wapiti (N American elk) your life is forever changed, I've had herds of them on my various lawns for a third of my life, and the first time I heard the bugle in the wild... boneshaking soul shaking goodness (kinda like James Brown)!.

39 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But I'll also say that prestige-sharing is absolutely still a thing. I live in New England and this, this is real. I can't speak for non-poor people elsewhere but when someone shoots a deer or some squirrels on my father's property, it is divvied up. My father refuses the squirrel as he does not need the meat as much as the hunters' families do but he'll take a small cut of the deer portion he is entitled to.

 

I have no doubt bout the reality of that so full agreement.

Do remember the flip side of generosity... obligation.
Loved using the axiom of the chieftain gifting back the lions share of an adventurers loot  to the adventurers, looking all magnanimous in that big chair. Back in the day we played with nordic/celtic tropes that all treasure belonged to the clan (well of course we meant the clan chief) and the wise leader never kept it... too much obligation could lead to bad feelings could lead to rivalry could lead... But the wise leader could not give it all away either, he accepted enough to provide for the clan, temple, and nobility (err, himself mostly, and please note I did say the wise one) and gave the rest back. (Taxes in a very brief and boring way to look at it). In fact a great leader would go above and beyond and find the one he thought would be a good man to have and gift him (coincidentally) usually the one he did the most Orlanthi thing.  Thus showing the clan and tribe his noble approval and obligating "his man” with small chains (a gold torc, casually flipped to the adventure with a pithy quip) to begin (later comes the lands, titles and songs) but these tales will wait for another day under the webs woven by the spider ...
of course now our heroes are men and women of note with means and people more than willing to obligate...

39 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't understand the rules because I'm not a hunter, but they are pretty strict. My father doesn't hunt so I think he's the old man portion. He can't really refuse the cut entirely from a deer, so he takes a portion of it. My mother usually makes a stew out of it.

 

Yes, being urban might be restricting us on this one Qizilbashwoman, thanks to the rural/hunting folk for chiming in with the details.. though seems like your family still got the idea .

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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Love the fact the we have gone almost totally rural in this conversation in “GMing a Heortling City” thread ,  even the few posts that apply to urban can also apply to the rural. I love how we can get so far off topic’s thread but defiantly know that we are still on topic because here on the  lozenge one often reaches the beginning by marching towards the end,

Cheers

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18 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes, being urban might be restricting us on this one Qizilbashwoman, thanks to the rural/hunting folk for chiming in with the details.. though seems like your family still got the idea .

I believe Qizilbash has said that she lives pretty rurally before, but I could be wrong.

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Love the fact the we have gone almost totally rural in this conversation in “GMing a Heortling City” thread ,  even the few posts that apply to urban can also apply to the rural. I love how we can get so far off topic’s thread but defiantly know that we are still on topic because here on the  lozenge one often reaches the beginning by marching towards the end,

 

Well, they're both very related. Rural norms color how cities are run, and finding out how property (or at the very least usage) rights are considered helps us consider how they would work out in a city. 

That's not to say we haven't veered off a bit though. :P 

20 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Do remember the flip side of generosity... obligation.

There are some stories (possibly apocryphal) about people bankrupting themselves by trying to keep up gift-exchange relations with other rulers to avoid being forced into a tributary status. Sometimes submitting as a vassal/subject is easier (or at least cheaper). 

For more info on gift-based economies, there are a couple of very old (but still pretty interesting) classics: Mauss' The Gift (which is basically THE book on reciprocity), and the Argonauts of the Pacific by Bronislav Malinowski. They're both around 100 years old at this point, so expect some cultural norms to have shifted a bit on the writing (Malinowski infamously ignores women's roles almost entirey - though there is a follow up book on the same group that focuses more on them called The Trobrianders of Papua New Guinea by Anette B. Weiner). Neither of them focuses on the kind of pastoral, corporate groups that the Orlanthi have, but what they both do is that they show through both generalizations and concrete examples how sustained gift relations create both personal and communal relations that last generations. In the absence of a formalized state with written laws, police, courts, central bank, a welfare system, etc etc. this sort of "networking" (and in fairness, affection as well) is vital. 

There are probably equally good books written on the subject from Native American viewpoints, but unfortunately my knowledge there is very limited, barring some literature on the Potlatch practice, which is also a form of prestige-gifting, however it's within a very specific ritual context. 

It's interesting to consider how these sustained (and delayed) reciprocal relations fare when intersecting with urban Issaries markets though. It's too simplistic to assume that they would simply evaporate. Issaries, and therefore market trading, is an integral part of Orlanthi culture, and so would likely both share and no share some core values with intra-clan collective gifting. I expect the Orlanthi-specific books from Chaosium has material here that I haven't read yet, but that RQ players have. Obviously there is some reciprocity, but usually in markets this is instant (ie. paying for an item as you buy it, as opposed to implicitly being expected to give something back of roughly equal value at a later date like one would do with a gift). It's certainly possible that Orlanthi view intraclan gift relations and Issaries market relations as simply two different social spheres that do not, and cannot, intersect, but that seems a bit too easy of an answer, and is likely to create a good deal of friction between the two. Maybe I'm overthinking this. Maybe in urban environments, individuals are limited to mostly buying personal items at the market, whereas clan/tribe/guild representatives negotiate larger purchases on behalf of the group, so as to maintain some semblance of corporate collectivity even in an urban environment. 

I'm thinking out loud here. Most of all I'd prefer to avoid the easy way out of just saying "all social relations evaporate into atomistic individuality in cities lol" (Marx paraphrased).

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55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That's not to say we haven't veered off a bit though. :P 

 

Indeed the point I was making is that while we have done so, it was done  delightfully so and in that unique Glorantan way still on topic, great eh!

 

55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There are some stories (possibly apocryphal) about people bankrupting themselves by trying to keep up gift-exchange relations with other rulers to avoid being forced into a tributary status. Sometimes submitting as a vassal/subject is easier (or at least cheaper). 

 

Know of them

Here in canada, one of our great shames is that we used this situation to outlaw the potlatch on the west coast in BC. I am sure there was some truth here that in desperation some 1st nations tribes were going entirely to the spiritual and giving it all ( I mean all) away. Small pox, settlers, plagues too numerous to count, without hope they turned to the spirits... the gods, anything that offered hope even to the death... While the prairie tribes were turning more and more too the SunDance for answers for all the same reasons and wth all the am colonial responses (bans, outlawing the practices, driving them underground)... The true sorrow, we take away now only their comfort but a what is a major part of the culture when they are whole is now gone when they are scattered and hurting. sorry soapbox put away for now...

55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There are probably equally good books written on the subject from Native American viewpoints, but unfortunately my knowledge there is very limited, barring some literature on the Potlatch practice, which is also a form of prestige-gifting, however it's within a very specific ritual context. 

 

There you go, knew we would go there sooner or later, already answered as best I could so...

55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

THE book on reciprocity), and the Argonauts of the Pacific by Bronislav Malinowski.

This sounds evocative,  I will look for it 

55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

t's interesting to consider how these sustained (and delayed) reciprocal relations fare when intersecting with urban Issaries markets though. It's too simplistic

Oh, there we go, the meat and taters of this discourse, the pearl as it were... While one can discuss rural and really be discoursing on urban as we have now proved we CANNOT discuss urban and not discuss Issaries. Can not be done! Its like taking the chocolate away from the hazlenut and trying to have nuttella.

Biturian is the answer here I believe, I will hide it not only cause it is a spoiler but it really is a pearl. The Travels of Biturian Varosh are not only a travelogue but the have a very pretty story  arc. Do not read the below which I include to make my point without having read the whole. It is good, no, it is great!

So generosity and avarice, how does one solve this near Njalor riddle of them coexisting. Here is Biturian’s take on the dichotomies that  bedevil issaries devotees and here we leave the tribulations of the Orlanthi and their  problems with the Generosity/Obligation dichotomy for a bit
trigger alert there is talk of Gloranthan slavery

Some unneeded spoilers also removed for those who absolutely have to read this her now (noted by <snip>

Cheers

 

<the main protagonists a soon to be former slave master Biturian and Norayeep the slave... talking about themselves and her brother Morak.>

Back at the inn I told Norayeep what I had heard. She said, “I had thought as much, and it is like what my mother told me.”

<snip>

“But you and Morak have remained together.”

“With great difficulty. However, I am pledged to help him, my last kin, until he has others beside me.”

“And that means?” I asked.

“I wish to return Morak to his home, <snip>.”

“Then what?”

“I will still be someone's slave,” she said. “I have no choice in that.”

But I do,” I said. I reached out and slipped the slave bracelets from her wrists, and the band from her neck. “You are free, to pick and choose and live and die as you will.”

“You are very generous,” she said, smiling.<snip>

“That's not all,” I said. “Sweet Norayeep, I was a rich caravan merchant but lost all my goods to glamour, and I traded my allied spirit for my life. I sought profit, lost all.

“Here I see you, seeking nothing for yourself but sharing in all the dangers of a <snip> kin. And I recognize your love and nobility. I did long ago, and sought for a time to own it. I cannot do so, nor should I by my cult vows. Yet I wish to share in it.

“Issaries shows me the way, if you will too. Can I trade with you? No profit: an even trade. Trust no Oratory or Bar- gaining, but watch my actions.”

“I must tend Morak.”

“Let us take him home together, and spend our time afterwards together as well.”

“We shall see,” she said, and slipped her hand into mine.”

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

If you want to cheat for a game, you can grab any random event from KoDP and improvise from there :D

Used to back when I could run the game....
So true I am not sure it is cheating, Check the random encounters in SC for more Random goodness.

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Obviously there is some reciprocity, but usually in markets this is instant (ie. paying for an item as you buy it, as opposed to implicitly being expected to give something back of roughly equal value at a later date like one would do with a gift). It's certainly possible that Orlanthi view intraclan gift relations and Issaries market relations as simply two different social spheres that do not, and cannot, intersect, but that seems a bit too easy of an answer, and is likely to create a good deal of friction between the two. Maybe I'm overthinking this. Maybe in urban environments, individuals are limited to mostly buying personal items at the market, whereas clan/tribe/guild representatives negotiate larger purchases on behalf of the group, so as to maintain some semblance of corporate collectivity even in an urban environment. 

Markets are a neutral ground where even feuding or hostile groups can exchange goods. This is what Mecca was during the holy months: violence was forbidden during Ramadan, which was in summer, and the many tribes would gather in the city, weaponless. People covered their faces if they were notorious and everyone pretended not to know who they were.

So Issaries market spell is important. Exchange there is not subject to the exigencies of reciprocity according to clan law: it's just bargaining. This happens in band societies sometimes.

Your tribe brings the wool, you trade it for medicines and maize, which is only grown by Lunars but is a nice change of foodstuffs.

The shaman has a taboo against eggs so you have saved all the extras from all the women and brought them; you spoke to the Blueberry's excellent bakers last time and can always use more, so you trade it for fresh loaves so the women can spend time drinking tea and weaving on both ends.

The market also lets you shop for a partner who isn't your cousin. Ask a kibutznik - if you grew up with them, they are like siblings. Check out the abs on that Yinkinite... maybe not a good long-term partner but sure and you'll get to pet that kitty tonight. Over time you'll maybe find a nice couple husbands and wives to make a good solid house with. And some more Yinkins for diversity.

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I thought of two events while sleeping off the Korean Fried Chicken I had en lieu of a Thanksgiving:

  • Typhoid Mary: She moved in a while ago from Prax and opened a popina, which is Pavisite accent for a kitchen but means a kind of pub for everyone to rub elbows in, slave to king. It's tasty and exotic and she's welcoming, if somewhat also exotic with her elaborate headdresses and somewhat odd face. Sadly, that last bit is because she's a female broo born from a herd man (gern), so her face isn't exactly human and her headdress hides the odd shape of her skull. She is an Illuminated priestess of Mallia - she claims to worship the Great Mother, which technically is not a lie - and she carefully releases horrific diseases. A careful investigator will discover the common linkage is her shop. Does she have followers? Where's her shrine? (Probably the sewer.)
  • The Running of the Bulls: Storm Bulls are so useful. But jeez, they got so much Beast rune. And these Storm Bulls claim to be in pursuit of Chaos, but by the Gods they are all stinking AND drunk as Bentus and they are making more chaos than can be handled. Someone needs to grab the bulls by the ... well, preferably by the hand politely and bring them to their target.

This is a male herd man's head. She uses a lot of careful makeup and a really big fabric wrap over extremely long hair kept in a gigantic bun to disguise that head size. But she still has a strange, strange face. Her skin is very pale and has freckles, which is quite flattering - and also typical of herd men.

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Edited by Qizilbashwoman
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On 11/26/2019 at 10:53 AM, Crel said:

So I suppose what I'm looking for help with is more like half "information on Heortling city-culture," and half "how to present that at a game table" without assigning reading homework.

The first thing is to look at what is different between a Heortling Clan/Tribe and a Heortling City.

A Clan is made up of a number of Bloodlines, which are groups of related people, often sharing a common ancestor, and their spouses. A Tribe is made of several Clans, tied together by cultural or magical bonds.

A City, especially in Sartar, is made by a Confederation of Tribes.

This, for me, means that inhabitants of a City have a weaker tie to their original Bloodline, Clan or Tribe, as these are less important than the tie to the City. Obviously this would be different for every person in the City.

A city could be ruled over by a Ring, this is similar to a Clan ring or Tribal ring, but members are often balanced, so one Tribe or Clan doesn't have too much influence. Each tribe or major Clan might have a single place on the City Ring, for example. Each City would have a set of Statutes that indicate what the Laws of the City are and which offences can be tried under City Law and which could be tried under Clan/Tribal Law or even Cult Law. Disputes may arise when something happens that is not a crime under City statutes but is a crime under Clan Law.

Bloodlines may well be set up in the City, perhaps living together in apartments or buildings close together. Clans or Tribes may well be given a Quarter each, by Quarter I mean a District, not just 25% of the City. However, a lot of people in the City may well owe no allegiance to a single Bloodline, Clan or Tribe, instead owing allegiance to the City. This might include outlaws, banished from a Clan but able to live in the City.

Craftsfolk organise themselves into guilds, which are effectively organisations of fellow Crafstsfolk. these are often cult-aligned, especially if the Craft has an associated Cult. However, they are not aligned to Clan or Tribe. Jewellers have a lot more in common with Jewellers of other Tribes than with their own Clansfolk. Powerful guilds might have a spot on the City Ring.

City Folk are more sophisticated than their rural counterparts. they have shed a lot of their rural ways and can regard their rural cousins as country bumpkins. "Hey, do you remember when Erik Longsword brought a herd of cows to pay for his new sword? What a bumpkin, he should have just sold them in the market and paid for the sword with his coins!"

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

The first thing is to look at what is different between a Heortling Clan/Tribe and a Heortling City.

A Clan is made up of a number of Bloodlines, which are groups of related people, often sharing a common ancestor, and their spouses. A Tribe is made of several Clans, tied together by cultural or magical bonds.

Some clan or tribal towns are numbered among the cities (Runegate, Clearwine). Other places like Dangerford or Red Cow Fort aren't far away from similar status.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

A City, especially in Sartar, is made by a Confederation of Tribes.

That doesn't prevent a clan or two to provide a significant portion of the city's population. Sartar didn't build is cities in empty spaces (apart from Duckpoint). A city that isn't occupying an alpine valley can easily support two agricultural clans inside its walls. Compare the Trypolye mega-villages...

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

This, for me, means that inhabitants of a City have a weaker tie to their original Bloodline, Clan or Tribe, as these are less important than the tie to the City. Obviously this would be different for every person in the City.

That depends on how distant that clan is from the city. If it is within three hour's ride (or better walk), the hurdle to participate in clan events and festivals is a lot lower than for a clan that lives two day's travel or more from the city.

People with ties to rural clans form sort of expat communities inside the city, inside the greater envelope of the tribal community. Depending on the status of such clansfolk in other organisations inside the city (a major specialist temple, a craft or merchant guild), that tribal community can become the ersatz-clan - it certainly has a sufficiently high number of members.

But basically, on the high holy days a normal mortal can participate in the rites only at one place. While it is possible to divide up those days of attendance (and make up for absences by extracurricular temple days in either location), that doesn't help with the primary self-identification of that city-dweller.

 

 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Bloodlines may well be set up in the City, perhaps living together in apartments or buildings close together. Clans or Tribes may well be given a Quarter each, by Quarter I mean a District, not just 25% of the City. However, a lot of people in the City may well owe no allegiance to a single Bloodline, Clan or Tribe, instead owing allegiance to the City. This might include outlaws, banished from a Clan but able to live in the City.

The ground in the city will be owned by the constituent tribes, temples, and guilds, with most city-dwellers tenants of one of these (not in the sense of semi-free, but in the sense of paying a rent-like tax to the land-owner). 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Craftsfolk organise themselves into guilds, which are effectively organisations of fellow Crafstsfolk. these are often cult-aligned, especially if the Craft has an associated Cult. However, they are not aligned to Clan or Tribe. Jewellers have a lot more in common with Jewellers of other Tribes than with their own Clansfolk. Powerful guilds might have a spot on the City Ring.

The only problem with this is that other than Boldhome, none of the cities has enough inhabitants to support specialized crafters' guilds. At the very best, a metal-worker, leather-worker and wood-worker guild might be feasible for a place like Jonstown, whereas Boldhome might have separate guilds for silversmiths and gemcutters.

 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

City Folk are more sophisticated than their rural counterparts. they have shed a lot of their rural ways and can regard their rural cousins as country bumpkins. "Hey, do you remember when Erik Longsword brought a herd of cows to pay for his new sword? What a bumpkin, he should have just sold them in the market and paid for the sword with his coins!"

That's an optimistic picture you are painting there... 

Many of those "rural hicks" make part of their living from providing shelter and services for people traveling on the roads - especially the side roads. They will have learned when to drive their cattle into the city to maybe squeeze a few extra coins out of the market.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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