Themed shamans

[Sir_Godspeed]

48 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Careful about that santa beard I'm sporting’ eh! <grin>

I believe that grognards goes back somewhat further to the very early 1800s and referred to Napoleon's generals and they’re love of playing with toy soldiers and refighting old battles with arguing over who hit whom and what rules systems to use to determine this...and as Joerg says just  grumbling an awful lot. If not it does go back to the czar’s generals doing much the same thing using toy french, russian and prussian soldiers...

an old grognard

To add to the wiktionary quote above - my impression was that "grognard" (grumbler, mutterer) was a term reserved for the Old Guard element of Napoleon's Imperial Guard (meaning that they were effectively veterans left over from older recruitment entries), who were known to complain and speak frankly around the Emperor. Napoleon was known to eat his food with his soldiers (being no doubt a calculated move - and possibly exaggerated in posterity, but appreciated nonetheless), and so his old-timers felt comfortable being honest with him. This shocked newbies and other visiting officials, but it's a very evocative image. Not that I consider Napoleon an ideal of rulership, but it would be nice if something like this became a norm. There are a few "emperors" out there who could need someone who spoke freely to them, but with a certain degree of mutual respect and trust. 

So whenever I see someone here tell Chaosium's staff that their new lore/material "is wrong gosh darn it and I don't like it one bit!" (very much my paraphrase here) I can't help but to summon the mental image of some loutish Breton or Alpinard telling the Emperor of France that his choice of marching route was a bloody nightmare.

/aside

Edited November 27, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So whenever I see someone here tell Chaosium's staff that their new lore/material "is wrong gosh darn it and I don't like it one bit!" (very much my paraphrase here) I can't help but to summon the mental image of some loutish Breton or Alpinard telling the Emperor of France that his choice of marching route was a bloody nightmare.

Great! @Jeff see I am calling you the great Napoleon when we disagree!

Found this curiously at Youtube and other then the text  translating as  you say I have no idea what it is about.....

L'Empereur Napoléon nomma ses Grenadiers de sa Garde les Grognards en 1807, car c'était les seuls à se plaindre ouvertement devant lui

 

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

Oh and obligatory apologies for the thread drift...

Edited November 28, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Charles]

With the Guide to Glorantha, I understand that the 3 worlds are considered as different perspectives of the same thing. See page 162 of Volume 1 for the way that the 3 different major types of magicians might view the magical landscape of Kerofin and surrounds - I drew the layout that became this pic.

A theist sees the magical world as full of deities and typically interacts with the magical world by entering it in the the role of a god. A spiritist sees the magical world as full of spirits and typically interacts with that world through bargaining with the spirits. A sorcerer sees the magical world as a place of abstract forces that may be manipulated through knowledge. Most entities in the magical worlds may be successfully approached with any of the magical systems, though they may be most usually or most easily contacted by one of the 3 main systems.

My offline life has meant that I haven’t kept up to date with later publications.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, Charles said:

With the Guide to Glorantha, I understand that the 3 worlds are considered as different perspectives of the same thing. See page 162 of Volume 1 for the way that the 3 different major types of magicians might view the magical landscape of Kerofin and surrounds - I drew the layout that became this pic.

T

This one from page 161 It’s great... who did the finished pic?

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

If I were a dude I'd have a santa beard

I am a dude and have to keep my beard trimmed down at this time of year to avoid that problem...

[Charles]

1 hour ago, Charles said:

With the Guide to Glorantha, I understand that the 3 worlds are considered as different perspectives of the same thing. See page 162 of Volume 1 for the way that the 3 different major types of magicians might view the magical landscape of Kerofin and surrounds - I drew the layout that became this pic.

 

[scott-martin]

13 hours ago, Charles said:

14 hours ago, Charles said:

With the Guide to Glorantha, I understand that the 3 worlds are considered as different perspectives of the same thing. See page 162 of Volume 1 for the way that the 3 different major types of magicians might view the magical landscape of Kerofin and surrounds - I drew the layout that became this pic.

 

I love this. In schematic form it looks like the evolution of the White Bear Red Moon counter set from first edition to Dragon Pass, a revelation in itself.

 

[jajagappa]

42 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I love this. In schematic form it looks like the evolution of the White Bear Red Moon counter set from first edition to Dragon Pass, a revelation in itself.

I never noticed before that the bottom figure in the Spirit World looks like the goddess of the RQG Quickstart Broken Tower!

Some interesting evolutions too going from Charles' sketch to final form. You don't realize in the final spirit form that the Red Moon has embraced Chaos! (The subtle workings of Gbaji obviously).

[soltakss]

On 11/26/2019 at 9:35 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

You know how Earth Witch (Serdrodoso) is a specific thing? A shaman cult for Earth rune. You don't Rune worship her.

I am very wary of making comments such as that.

People do worship entities such as the Earth Witch as a Rune Cult, if they get enough worshippers together. It might start as a spirit Cult but end up as a permanent Rune Cult.

On 11/26/2019 at 9:47 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Oh, Oakfed! Yeah, He doesn't have temples, right?

There's an Oakfed Shrine in one of the RQ Classic Supplements, maybe the Puzzle Canal, I can't remember. It had a ball of fire, or something, that zapped anyone who tried to enter.

Also, Temples to Lodril have shrines to Oakfed, as Lodril's son.

 

[Charles]

 

On 11/28/2019 at 11:45 PM, jajagappa said:

Some interesting evolutions too going from Charles' sketch to final form. You don't realize in the final spirit form that the Red Moon has embraced Chaos! (The subtle workings of Gbaji obviously).

When I started this pic / diagram, I wanted to make it an in-Glorantha document. However, I couldn’t work out a story for it. It’s specifically drawn from an Orlanthi/Heortling perspective, with the pre-eminent association of the Red Moon with Chaos. I chose a specific point on the Argan Argar Atlas as a viewpoint for the geographical view.

For the in-Glorantha story, I would like this to have been drawn by one or more associates of Agrath as training material for one of the groups within the Sartar Magical Union. Likely, there’s more than one contributor, to give the different world perspectives. A worshipper of Lhankor Mhy might be able to give the sorcerous and the theist perspectives. Likely, the group lead (not necessarily an actual artist) would be Illuminated to bring all of the perspectives together.

BTW, I made a mistake in the original. I should have put the Dragon or Dragonewt rune where I put the beast rune.

[davecake]

On 12/2/2019 at 6:36 AM, soltakss said:

People do worship entities such as the Earth Witch as a Rune Cult

I think the Earth Witch, and Kolat and Dehore, etc are exceptions to the general rule that you can approach a deity multiple ways. I think their purpose, their prime role and core identity, is the provide a shaman path and they do not normally make sense as a priestly cult that stands alone. They might end up as a sub-cult of a though - perhaps just a collection of Summon and Command spells for different spirits, along with Discorporation as 'shamanism lite'. 

On 12/2/2019 at 6:36 AM, soltakss said:

Also, Temples to Lodril have shrines to Oakfed, as Lodril's son.

Yes, though they generally don't call him Oakfed. All the Lowfires (so also the Workfire and the Hearth) are children of Lodril. Confusingly, considered the same as Enverinus, a part of Yelm. 

[davecake]

On 11/27/2019 at 8:58 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Certainly Alesh has a lot more aspects to Her than Serdrodosa - after all, She is a kind of "grain goddess" and a kind of minor "Eirithia" in that She is the yam and fowl goddess - but she's definitely not anything like Ernalda.

Kind of a goddess that gives the benefits of other plants beside the major grains (like Ernalda) and other domestic animals (such as are typically worshipped as sub-cults of Ernalda, Uralda is pretty much is just the Orlanthi version of Eiritha). She is also the major goddess of the womens power in society (like Ernalda). But she is almost entirely concerned with the benevolent, socially useful aspects of the Earth (somewhat like Ernalda), whereas Serdrosa is concerned mostly with more primal aspects, like talking to rocks. There are fewer difference between Ernalda and Aleshmara, than there are between Serdrosa and either. Serdrosa is mostly concerned with the magical connection of individuals to the element, like Kolat for men, sometimes they solve problems by talking to spirits but mostly their powers are outside the main concerns of the deity. 

But then Faranar has some aspects of Ernalda as well, but only some  - she is the goddess of the social role of wife, and much of the social role of womens power. Except Aleshmara is still the goddess of the most important aspect of female social power among the Doraddi - she owns everything, including the tent they live in. 

So Aleshmara has some aspects of Asrelia as well - Earth as provider of wealth and prosperity - while Faranar is a sort of cut down version of Ernalda governing the child bearing years,  mostly. Though most of the pregnancy related powers that fall to Ernalada in Orlanthi fall to Nyanka among the Doraddi. 

And it all gets more confusing when you consider the difference between the Arbennan of Jolar and the other Doraddi. In most of the Doraddi, Faranar is Pamalt's wife, and Aleshmara his mother in law. Because of the unusual marriage customs of the Arbennan (young man marries older woman, young woman marries older man, divorce when the older one retires to an oasis can no longer easy travel) maybe they sometimes see Aleshmara as his first wife? 

[Qizilbashwoman]

35 minutes ago, davecake said:

Kind of a goddess that gives the benefits of other plants beside the major grains (like Ernalda) and other domestic animals (such as are typically worshipped as sub-cults of Ernalda, Uralda is pretty much is just the Orlanthi version of Eiritha).

I think I'd like to hearken back to my original point, which is: Things Be Different Down Under

Pamalt is Earth with Aleshmara. You cannot map this onto Genertelan gods because Genert and Gata decided to have a big fat family: Gata emanated a thousand versions of Herself and Genert had dozens of tiny dancing daughters with Gata.

Pamalt did not. Aleshmara is there as Gata's emanation, and her role is female Agimori Earth god. Pamalt is the Earth king. That's the story. Trying to equate Aleshmara with various forms of Genertelan deities is a waste of time in my humble opinion. Nyanka, for example, is a water deity. Quite clearly the system we're familiar with just doesn't work the same way.

Are there similarities? Sure. Faranar has a dark twin, Miroune, much like Asrelia has Ty Kora Tek, Ernalda has Maran, and Voria has Babeester Gor, but that's about the limit to the similarities. Dark Earth is a common theme.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[GianniVacca]

On 11/27/2019 at 6:25 PM, David Scott said:

Maybe yes maybe no. I'd recommend runing a God Learner HeroQuest back to the Golden Age to find the truth.

To me "before the Spike shattered" for a Gloranthan mortal is tantamount to "before the Big Bang" in the Real World-- an unfathomable singularity.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, GianniVacca said:

To me "before the Spike shattered" for a Gloranthan mortal is tantamount to "before the Big Bang" in the Real World-- an unfathomable singularity.

The spike shattered at the end of the Storm Age and marks the beginning of the Great Darkness. Most god's mythologies stem from the Storm Age and their subsequent actions in the Great Darkness and then final death. Before the Spike shattered is a well know time for most Gloranthans. I would say that the Green Age at the beginning of the Golden Age is the unfathomable time, where lack of differentiation makes self identification with this time difficult. See the Guide pages 116-120.

[davecake]

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

The spike shattered at the end of the Storm Age and marks the beginning of the Great Darkness. Most god's mythologies stem from the Storm Age and their subsequent actions in the Great Darkness and then final death. Before the Spike shattered is a well know time for most Gloranthans.

Which is why think the differentiation between the forms of magic was established in the Golden Age, not with the shattering of the Spike. Lots of stories about the confrontations between different forms of magic happen in the Golden Age. 

So if you want to discover how the different forms of magic are really one:

- travel back to the Green Age

- if you manage to return and not stay there forever, have ancient secrets of the unity of consciousness that enable that enable you to see the unity of magic

- but you are unable to rationally explain it in words, so no one really understands

- and those who do understand, perceive you to now be Illuminated, so don't really trust you anyway. 

- but hey, you have cool magic secrets and powers, you heroquesting mystic weirdo! 

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Which is why think the differentiation between the forms of magic was established in the Golden Age, not with the shattering of the Spike. Lots of stories about the confrontations between different forms of magic happen in the Golden Age. 

So if you want to discover how the different forms of magic are really one:

- travel back to the Green Age

- if you manage to return and not stay there forever, have ancient secrets of the unity of consciousness that enable that enable you to see the unity of magic

- but you are unable to rationally explain it in words, so no one really understands

- and those who do understand, perceive you to now be Illuminated, so don't really trust you anyway. 

- but hey, you have cool magic secrets and powers, you heroquesting mystic weirdo! 

the Green Age is before Death and before spirits and people were distinguished, it's fun to read about but it would be deeply unsettling to visit. The Entekosiad stories of the Green Age are trippy as hellllll: fun to read, maybe not so fun to be there.

The first division of those who give birth from those who don't happened because Lodril taught his people the secret of paint: eat your meal, then paint the cave walls with images of it and they will leap back to life from there and return to the wild for another day. But the Earth goddess taught her people to remake the animals inside them: each night, they gave birth to the animals. When the tribes met, they recognised a fundamental difference after the two shared a meal and some of the bones of animals Lodril's people had hunted but the Earth people had eaten disappeared up into the other camp and they demanded answers.

And that's how you get the Mother of Animals

[davecake]

15 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the Green Age is before Death and before spirits and people were distinguished, it's fun to read about but it would be deeply unsettling to visit.

Yes. 
If you visit the Green Age and are merely Illuminated, you’ve done well. You’ve had your consciousness broken down to a part of formative proto-reality, and then come back. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes. 
If you visit the Green Age and are merely Illuminated, you’ve done well. You’ve had your consciousness broken down to a part of formative proto-reality, and then come back. 

So temptingly dangerous. It was Etyries who first traveled to the Green Age.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/6/2019 at 7:58 AM, davecake said:

- but hey, you have cool magic secrets and powers, you heroquesting mystic weirdo! 

#argrath

[Sir_Godspeed]

18 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

So temptingly dangerous. It was Etyries who first traveled to the Green Age.

Makes sense. Everything was more easily converted and communicated back then. 

Unless of course a myth states it wasn't.

[davecake]

23 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

It was Etyries who first traveled to the Green Age.

Etyries was the first Lunar heroquester to travel to the Green Age, shortly before Valare Addi. But the Lunars were totally not the first people to do so (though they might have been the first, or the first in a very long time, to visit Green Age Wendaria). 
The God Leaners managed to compile reasonable maps of the Green Age, and other knowledge that indicates they had visited it. EWF magic, including sorcery etc not just draconic, was very interested in the Green Age. Pavis probably visited it to create his Book of the Original Man grimoire. 
And I think that a lot of Nysaloran First Age heroquesting did so as well. 
I also think that in a few places it was probably something that was done all along - it seems likely it happened in Esrolia, for example, as they have maps of Grren Age Nochet. I think Green Age heroquesting is the secret core of the Imarjan mystic tradition. 
See the mention of Green Age heroquesting in the Eleven Lights - it’s dangerous and hard to return from, but not hard to reach if you are following the right path (paths that many religions don’t have if their deity post dates it, but quite a few do). 

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

Etyries was the first Lunar heroquester to travel to the Green Age, shortly before Valare Addi. But the Lunars were totally not the first people to do so (though they might have been the first, or the first in a very long time, to visit Green Age Wendaria). 

Complete agreement this far.

7 hours ago, davecake said:

The God Leaners managed to compile reasonable maps of the Green Age, and other knowledge that indicates they had visited it.

If they did, how come we don't get to see them? The Golden Age map is the first to provide information that can be mapped.

I agree that the God Learner heroquesters may have visited the Green Age, and may have caused havoc to the underlying structure of Glorantha by their actions there. While there appear to be methods to cross the Green Age without causing a major upheaval inserting oneself into a Green Age transitional moment (like in one possible path in the name--giving quest in Eleven Lights), it doesn't seem to fit the character of God Learner explorations to leave without leaving your mark.

7 hours ago, davecake said:

EWF magic, including sorcery etc not just draconic, was very interested in the Green Age. Pavis probably visited it to create his Book of the Original Man grimoire. 

Green Age transitions are extremely powerful magic. They are hard (possibly impossible) to reproduce.

7 hours ago, davecake said:

And I think that a lot of Nysaloran First Age heroquesting did so as well. 
I also think that in a few places it was probably something that was done all along - it seems likely it happened in Esrolia, for example, as they have maps of Green Age Nochet. I think Green Age heroquesting is the secret core of the Imarjan mystic tradition.

The very existence of those maps (and the existence of a river and a high water mark) make that Green Age temporal coordinate a bit doubtful to me. I can agree to "before the Sunstop that is presented as the entirety of the Golden Age", but that doesn't necessarily mean the actual Green Age. The Golden Age is full of Green Age transitions, like the usurpation of Brightface Yelm starting the Sunstop (ending the cycle of day and night) or the death of the Emperor and the definition of the (second half of) the Sunpath. The death of Rashoran and the birth of the Devil may be Green Age transitions, too.

7 hours ago, davecake said:

See the mention of Green Age heroquesting in the Eleven Lights - it’s dangerous and hard to return from, but not hard to reach if you are following the right path (paths that many religions don’t have if their deity post dates it, but quite a few do). 

Is it a separate age, or are these Green Age excursions just going to a part of the Golden Age so early that a lot of defining transitions still were there to be made? I know this is splitting hairs, but I have come to think of "Green Age" more like the transitions than an actual early mythic age.

If the cult of Orlanth includes Larnste, then there is no period in Creation that is unavailable to cultists. True, it is a mystery cult inside the greater cult, but the same can be said about Imarja or possibly other aspects within Ernalda (allowing travel back to the youth of Asrelia as a maiden, for instance).

Cultists of Waha have a hard time to go before the Greater Darkness on the experiences of their own deity alone, although occasional Age jumps aren't unheard of (like Vingkot receiving his uncureable Chaos wound in a battle that occurred long after his burial/discorporation). But then butchery is present already in the journey of the log walkers, and where there is a beast made into food, there is the butcher. If Waha has taken up that primeval mantle, then that mantle provides a path into the Green Age or Earliest Golden Age.

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I agree that the God Learner heroquesters may have visited the Green Age, and may have caused havoc to the underlying structure of Glorantha by their actions there.

I suspect we'd find the Goddess Switch to be a Green Age heroquest. 

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The very existence of those maps (and the existence of a river and a high water mark) make that Green Age temporal coordinate a bit doubtful to me.

Consider the Imarja myth though with the three houses. That seems very Green Age, leading to a "recognition" of power by the goddesses.