Jump to content

Spell boosting with magic points


Recommended Posts

In the rulebook on page 248 it says:

"Boosting a Spell
A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses."

Does this mean that also runespells can be boosted with magic points? If for example Mindblast, nonstackable 2 point runespell, is boosted with 2 magic points, can it get past Shield 2 spell which provides Countermagic 4 ?

Edit: typo

Edited by Luxus
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 51
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I am a little surprised that so many people thought that the magic points are not allowed to use  to boost spells  harder to dispel or dismiss. Where had you come to the notion that it is not possible

Well, I mean... let's say someone is going up against a better opponent in a Humakti duel. While these things aren't supposed to go to the death, they easily can. I think it's completely reasonable if

No, this has been raised a few times. If you want more Countermagic, you have to learn more points. Otherwise it would just be a 1 point spell, and it would say "just boost it with as many MPs as you

Posted Images

Not only does "regardless of type" imply exactly that but boosting rune magic is explicitly mentioned on p314 RQG

Quote

If the casting success roll is greater than the adventurer’s
relevant Rune affinity, the spell is not cast, and there is no
Rune point loss. If the adventurer is boosting the spell with
additional magic points, they lose 1 magic point (no matter
how many are being spent).
On a fumble, the spell fails and
the adventurer loses the Rune points intended for the spell

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Not only does "regardless of type" imply exactly that but boosting rune magic is explicitly mentioned on p314 RQG

 

Well, spell type could also mean variable type of spells and non-variable type of spells. You are probably right, but I hope the rulebook would be clearer on issues like these.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Luxus said:

Does this mean that also runespells can be boosted with magic points? If for example Mindblast, nonstackable 2 point runespell, is boosted with 2 magic points, can it get past Shield 2 spell which provides Countermagic 4 ?

Yes. You can boost any kind of spell, with no upper limit for the extra magic points, but those points will only overcome countermagic and similar effects and won't add to the spell's intensity/effect.

This is how I read the Countermagic effects:

To get past a Shield 2, you need a spell of a total of 5 or more MP. To get past a Countermagic 4, you need 6 or more MP. That fuzzy extra MP is the weak bonus the spirit spell gives over the more "permanent" rune spell side effects, at the price of faltering in the face of the first spell strong enough to get through.

The topic of stacking Countermagic on top of Shield or Berserk or similar spells with Countermagic side effects was discussed exhaustively (and not entirely conclusively) a good while ago.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Yes. You can boost any kind of spell, with no upper limit for the extra magic points, but those points will only overcome countermagic and similar effects and won't add to the spell's intensity/effect.

 

Emphasis mine

Interesting, this implies that RQ G  has changed the old rule that all MPs fueling a spell must come from one source. I know RPs and POW can come from multiple sources, usually in enchantments, I think. What say you Joerg, has this been changed in RQ G or am I misreading your intent?

Edited by Bill the barbarian
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Emphasis mine

Interesting, this implies that RQ G  has changed the old rule that all MPs fueling a spell must come from one source. I know RPs and POW can come from multiple sources, usually in enchantments, I think. What say you Joerg, has this been changed in RQ G or am I misreading your intent?

I never touched that rule, but then in all likelihood my RQ3 or RQG games hardly ever violated it either. (I have yet to play RQ2 RAW...)

But then, create a sufficiently big magic point matrix, and that's your source. You can refill it from various sources.

Besides INT (or nowadays CHA), available POW usually was the limiting factor for spellcasting. Even if you had a matrix or crystal, someone had to fill it, and my games didn't have spirit farms.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I never touched that rule, but then in all likelihood my RQ3 or RQG games hardly ever violated it either. (I have yet to play RQ2 RAW...)

 

Well back in the day one could not power a spell—let’s go with a pricey one that used to be quite common and quite necessary to reattach limbs, heal 6 from more tha one being. RAW pretty much said (from RQ 1-3 in any case) that only one being could provide the MPs to make this spell happen all at once... One could always cast heal 1 by 6 individuals but... Hmmm, Kay, that makes it less than perfect for this demonstration, howsabout Flameblade?  a great 4 pointer. Multiple Individuals  can not combine magic points, check. Impossible to cast Fameblade (1), so no combinng 4 one point spells. check...

that’s what I meant.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Well back in the day one could not power a spell—let’s go with a pricey one that used to be quite common and quite necessary to reattach limbs, heal 6 from more tha one being. RAW pretty much said (from RQ 1-3 in any case) that only one being could provide the MPs to make this spell happen all at once... One could always cast heal 1 by 6 individuals but... Hmmm, Kay, that makes it less than perfect for this demonstration, howsabout Flameblade?  a great 4 pointer. Multiple Individuals  can not combine magic points, check. Impossible to cast Fameblade (1), so no combinng 4 one point spells. check...

that’s what I meant.

But dead crystals... (and in RQ3, Magic Point Matrices)

Has there ever been a ban to different individuals feeding one and the same crystal while it still contained "temporary POW" from someone else?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Has there ever been a ban to different individuals feeding one and the same crystal while it still contained "temporary POW" from someone else?

I suppose not, otherwise how could you fill it to begin with lest you emptied it first... Oh, hold on,  by attunement. You can not use a crystal until it is attuned by overcoming its POW in an opposed roll on the resistance  table or is that just special powered crystals...NO all crystals in RQ 2 and RQ G as well. Well attuning a crystal gets rid of any MPs or spirits it had so...No word on multiple beings supplying MPs to one spell yet... but still looking

ETA a little later, reread RQ Gs crystal info in the GM screen packages Adventure Book and putting in MPs does not get rid of someone else already placed MPs that I can see, it will get rid of a spirit that might have been bound in the crystal just as forcing a spirit into the crystal gets rid of the MPs that used to be there.

Edited by Bill the barbarian
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I suppose not, otherwise how could you fill it to begin with lest you emptied it first... Oh, hold on,  by attunement. You can not use a crystal until it is attuned by overcoming its POW in an opposed roll on the resistance  table or is that just special powered crystals...NO all crystals in RQ 2 and RQ G as well. Well attuning a crystal gets rid of any MPs or spirits it had so...NO word on muylitle creators supplying MPs to one spell yet

A dead crystal has no (permanent) POW, and overcoming the POW of a spell target doesn't take that POW (permanent or temporary) away unless it is a Drain spell or attack.

RQG doesn't require any attuning to dead/unpowered crystals (Adventure Book p. 122). Only powered crystals require this, and only one such crystal can be attuned by an entity at any time. There are no such limits for dead crystals. A cursory glance at RQ2 showed no different text.

 

14 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

ETA a little later, reread RQ Gs crystal info in the GM screen packages Adventure Book and putting in MPs does not get rid of someone else already placed MPs that I can see, it will get rid of a spirit that might have been bound in the crystal just as forcing a spirit into the crystal gets rid of the MPs that used to be there.

In other words, you had better cast a spell with them, or use them to power your control spell...

As far as I understand, the only way to empty a crystal is by using the MP for some magic. (I wonder whether stored MP can be used in/as lay worship?)

There doesn't seem to be any way to pool MP from various storages into a single one. The only way in is from an entity owning MP (not necessarily regenerating them) into the storage.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/29/2019 at 12:59 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Interesting, this implies that RQ G  has changed the old rule that all MPs fueling a spell must come from one source.

The old RQ3+ campaign I played in used this rule; it was an important limiting factor for keeping us from dumping a zillion MP into sorcery spells on all the party members. (We used some HRs for sorcery, which didn't rely on Free INT.) I was under the impression, however, that this was a house rule. Are you able to verify that it was a official rule?

From my interaction with old scenarios, it looks to me like a caster's MP was just totaled, and that whether it was drawn from personal POW or Storage 1 or Storage 3 didn't matter when casting a spell.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Crel said:

The old RQ3+ campaign I played in used this rule; it was an important limiting factor for keeping us from dumping a zillion MP into sorcery spells on all the party members. (We used some HRs for sorcery, which didn't rely on Free INT.) I was under the impression, however, that this was a house rule. Are you able to verify that it was a official rule?

Very busy week with two RPG projects and real life work as well, but Crel if I or someone here has not got back to you with an answer by Friday can you remind me to look through my RQ 3 stuff for an answer... this is one of the puzzles currently pissing me off with the other being unarmed unintelligent beasties vs swords and spears and parrying fangs and claws... in another thread and I would love to get the bottom of both soonish... and I still want to do some work with the escaping thread which I do not think is dead yet.... Man, when did my hobby began to get to be a job?

Cheers

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Crel said:

Ain't that most folks' dream? ;) 

You are correct and thank you for the reminder good sir, though I do not reveal a lot behind the loincloth and horned helmet here in da’net (Bin dair don dat gottatshirt too old to do it agin)...

... I do have to remind myself that I work where others play (not here, I am envious of those who toil in the word mines and dream fields of the Chaosium Overlords...) but still.

Cheers

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/30/2019 at 9:23 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Very busy week with two RPG projects and real life work as well, but Crel if I or someone here has not got back to you with an answer by Friday can you remind me to look through my RQ 3 stuff for an answer... this is one of the puzzles currently pissing me off with the other being unarmed unintelligent beasties vs swords and spears and parrying fangs and claws... in another thread and I would love to get the bottom of both soonish... and I still want to do some work with the escaping thread which I do not think is dead yet.... Man, when did my hobby began to get to be a job?

 

Truely sorry I have a head Cold From Malia so I can barely think (makes me just about perfect to spout silliness in the fora, Yay! Watch me go....)   and between that and trying to resurrect dormant  projects (The Great Escape) at three post it can’t be dead, someone go and resurrect it wile I convalesce please... maintain ones I contribute to and tell friends I can not make parties and all I have to say I can not make my promise of an answer by today... <sad> Give me a bit more time and I will get on it. Or maybe someone will figure it our before that. But I am wondering what kind of a rabbit hole this will end up being.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...

I had to dig up this old thread, because spell boosting came up again in our group:

If all spells can be boosted with magic points, can also defensive spells (countemagic for example) be boosted? If demoralize spell can be boosted to overcome countermagic, can countermagic (or shield) be boosted with magic points when first cast to protect better against this coming demoralize spell?

From rules p 248: "A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses."

"Typically done", but not "always done", so the boosting can also be for other purposes than to "overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses." ?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Luxus said:

I had to dig up this old thread, because spell boosting came up again in our group:

If all spells can be boosted with magic points, can also defensive spells (countemagic for example) be boosted? If demoralize spell can be boosted to overcome countermagic, can countermagic (or shield) be boosted with magic points when first cast to protect better against this coming demoralize spell?

From rules p 248: "A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses."

"Typically done", but not "always done", so the boosting can also be for other purposes than to "overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses." ?

Some rune spells can be boosted to create an effect - Heal Wound, (Weapon) Trance, ...

These additional points only are used to avoid the effects of say Reflection or Absorption, to name two defensive spells other than Countermagic or spells with CM effect (Berserk, Shield, Suppress Lodril, Warding). Or sorcerous spells in effect, like Neutralize Spirit Magic or Neutralize Rune.

They don't add anything to the effect of the spell.

One typical use is to stack a spirit magic Countermagic on top of a Shield - the total points of the CM must be at least 1 point more than the shield's CM (twice the Rune Points used). 

If you want to cast Countermagic 3 on an ally who already has 3 points of Shield active, your Countermagic needs tp be boosted to 7 points in total to avoid being negated by the Shield's CM effect of 6 (not fuzzy, but sharp). The next person to cast a spell on that character needs to use a spell of 11 MP or more to take effect. Anything less will be prevented from taking effect by the Countermagic. If the incoming spell has 7 points or less, the spirit spell CM will not evaporate, any incoming spell worth 8 to 10 points will take down the spirit magic while being negated, leaving just the Shield's CM effect of 6. Likewise any spell of 11 MP or more will evaporate the CM spirit spell, reducing the remaining effect to 6 points.

The 4 points for boosting the CM so it could take effect at all don't add to the effect. Once the spell has been placed, these MP are out of the game. Only the rune spells which explicitely need to be boosted by MP like Heal Wound will let boosting MP add to the effect.

There is no INT or CHA limit for adding boosting MP.

 

 

Question: Can you boost a spell you received from a Spell Trading? Given that Weapon Trance is usseless without MP boost, does the caster trading the spell have to include the MP when casting the spell for the trade?

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Luxus said:

If all spells can be boosted with magic points, can also defensive spells (countemagic for example) be boosted? If demoralize spell can be boosted to overcome countermagic, can countermagic (or shield) be boosted with magic points when first cast to protect better against this coming demoralize spell?

No, this has been raised a few times. If you want more Countermagic, you have to learn more points. Otherwise it would just be a 1 point spell, and it would say "just boost it with as many MPs as you like". There would be no point in learning Countermagic 2.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies.

So instead of
"A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses."
the correct wording for the rule should be
"A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This only affects the chances to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses." ???

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Luxus said:

Thanks for the replies.

So instead of
"A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses."
the correct wording for the rule should be
"A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This only affects the chances to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses." ???

Some spells give specific uses/mechanisms for extra MPs, other to than penetrating defenses.  So I would rephrase this along the lines of "In addition to any use of MPs specified by the spell, a caster may also use further magic points to boost a spell -- regardless of type -- in an effort to overcome Countermagic, Shield, or other magical defenses."

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Luxus said:

Thanks for the replies.

So instead of
"A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This is typically done to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses."
the correct wording for the rule should be
"A caster may always use additional magic points to boost a spell, regardless of type. This only affects the chances to overcome a Countermagic or Shield spell, or other magical defenses." ???

i think you can boost additional magic points any spell to make it harder to dispel or dismiss. If you have protection 2 and you use 1 additional magic point. Removing the spell requires dispel magic 3. Without additional magic points it would be enough to cast  dispel magic 2. However, the protection 2 spell will only give you 2 points of armor, no matter how many magic points you boost.

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Ulla Taalasmaa said:

i think you can boost additional magic points any spell to make it harder to dispel or dismiss...

This is a common HR, but I do not believe it is in the RAW or Rune Fixes.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ulla Taalasmaa said:

i think you can boost additional magic points any spell to make it harder to dispel or dismiss.

Yes. This is not in the rules. Some people believe it, but there is no reason to think it is. 

Of course, if you want it as a house rule, go ahead. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2020 at 11:32 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Otherwise it would just be a 1 point spell, and it would say "just boost it with as many MPs as you like". There would be no point in learning Countermagic 2.

This mix of "stackable spells", boosting with MPs, custom spells that have MP-based spending, across two (excluding Sorcery here) magic systems (and excluding duration considerations!) is a major source of confusion, as far as I can tell. I know I was confused about all this for at least a few months. I wish these mechanics had been cleaned up and unified around fewer standard concepts.

Edited by lordabdul
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...