Gifts and starting Loyalty

[Brootse]

From the rulebook:

Gifts
For every 20 L given as gifts to another adventurer, temple, or other community, an adventurer may get a +1% bonus to a single Loyalty roll with that entity. For every 50 L given, the adventurer gets a +1% cumulative and permanent increase in that Loyalty.

If you didn't have a Loyalty score for the gift's recipient before, how Loyalty do you have after the first 50L gift? 1, 60, 61, or something else?

[jajagappa]

58 minutes ago, Brootse said:

If you didn't have a Loyalty score for the gift's recipient before, how Loyalty do you have after the first 50L gift? 1, 60, 61, or something else?

p.236-7: Passions may be gained during play. Adventurers should get many opportunities to gain enemies, loved ones, allies, and loyalties. Both the player and gamemaster should agree upon Passions. When something significant occurs to an adventurer, the gamemaster or player may suggest that a Passion has been generated. They should discuss it, and then determine the starting value. The starting value must be agreed upon by both player and gamemaster, but a new Passion should generally start at least at 60%.

With a 50L gift it would rise to 61% (unless player and GM decided on a higher initial value).

[Brootse]

57 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

p.236-7: Passions may be gained during play. Adventurers should get many opportunities to gain enemies, loved ones, allies, and loyalties. Both the player and gamemaster should agree upon Passions. When something significant occurs to an adventurer, the gamemaster or player may suggest that a Passion has been generated. They should discuss it, and then determine the starting value. The starting value must be agreed upon by both player and gamemaster, but a new Passion should generally start at least at 60%.

With a 50L gift it would rise to 61% (unless player and GM decided on a higher initial value).

Thanks!

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

p.236-7: Passions may be gained during play. Adventurers should get many opportunities to gain enemies, loved ones, allies, and loyalties. Both the player and gamemaster should agree upon Passions. When something significant occurs to an adventurer, the gamemaster or player may suggest that a Passion has been generated. They should discuss it, and then determine the starting value. The starting value must be agreed upon by both player and gamemaster, but a new Passion should generally start at least at 60%.

With a 50L gift it would rise to 61% (unless player and GM decided on a higher initial value).

Yes, this is exactly how I read it.

[g33k]

On 11/30/2019 at 6:41 AM, Brootse said:

From the rulebook:

Gifts
For every 20 L given as gifts to another adventurer, temple, or other community, an adventurer may get a +1% bonus to a single Loyalty roll with that entity. For every 50 L given, the adventurer gets a +1% cumulative and permanent increase in that Loyalty.

If you didn't have a Loyalty score for the gift's recipient before, how Loyalty do you have after the first 50L gift? 1, 60, 61, or something else?

Hmmm.... This makes me wonder...

If someone gives 100L as part of making a Loyalty roll, do they get +5% to that roll, AND +2% permanent Loyalty?

Given the word "cumulative", should the bonus on the roll be +7% rather than +5%?

 

Munchkins gonna munch, yo!  It can't ALL be egregious, sometimes ya gotta slog through those +1% and +2% bonii ...

 

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

If someone gives 100L as part of making a Loyalty roll, do they get +5% to that roll, AND +2% permanent Loyalty?

Yes, that's how I read it.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Given the word "cumulative", should the bonus on the roll be +7% rather than +5%?

I would say the +5 is a bonus to your current skill, which is increased by +2 permanently afterwards.

Bribing the Gods is a good thing.

[g33k]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

...

I would say the +5 is a bonus to your current skill, which is increased by +2 permanently afterwards.

Bribing the Gods is a good thing.

But... it says "cumulative" there, man!  Right there.

Is there ANY other thing that could be "accumulated" into a "cumulative" total, than the permanent +2 and this roll's +5, making a "cumulative" +7?

I mean... this is a professional wordsmith, who has -- presumably -- been exposed to Strunk&White's "Omit Needless Words."  They already have plainly stated the 20:1 per-roll bonus & the 50:1 permanent bonus; but SOMETHING else is going on... something ... <lowers voice ominously> ...  CUMULATIVE.       😁

 

(just munchin' away here.  My my MY, but this is yummy RAW ! )

 

(looks askance at some of the River Voices char-sheets, and stories of the campaign, and wonders why soltakss -- of all GM's! -- is being so parsimonious with a little +2% on a one-time roll ...)

[soltakss]

10 minutes ago, g33k said:

(looks askance at some of the River Voices char-sheets, and stories of the campaign, and wonders why soltakss -- of all GM's! -- is being so parsimonious with a little +2% on a one-time roll ...)

You are looking at it all wrong.

Why am I bothering with a +2 when the PCs could slap a wodge of 10,000L to increase their Loyalty by +500 and get a +200 permanent increase? 

That's what you should be asking!

[Bill the barbarian]

13 minutes ago, g33k said:

But... it says "cumulative" there, man!  Right there.

 

and which  of the Rules of Acquisition would this be oh wise and great Ferengi?

[Atgxtg]

4 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You are looking at it all wrong.

Why am I bothering with a +2 when the PCs could slap a wodge of 10,000L to increase their Loyalty by +500 and get a +200 permanent increase? 

That's what you should be asking!

Okay, I'll ask: Why should my giving a temple a 10000L bribe, donation make me a fanatic?

 

I could see it making the temple better disposed towards me, but it shouldn't make me more devout.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Atgxtg

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

and which  of the Rules of Acquisition would this be oh wise and great Ferengi?

OP quotes the rules.

I haven't looked it up to verify <Bad pedant, Bad!> <insert Dobby self-punishment GIF> .

[g33k]

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You are looking at it all wrong.

Why am I bothering with a +2 when the PCs could slap a wodge of 10,000L to increase their Loyalty by +500 and get a +200 permanent increase? 

That's what you should be asking!

No... once I've got a permanent +200, I should be splitting my roll +100/+100 and getting TWO boons from the temple.

(I won't bother asking, I'll just do it.  No need to bother my overburdened GM with such petty details, when the rules already cover this).

 

(ok, NOW we're getting into some hardcore egregery!  See what you've done, Bill?  I hope you're happy!  I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!!!   🤡  )

[soltakss]

9 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Okay, I'll ask: Why should my giving a temple a 10000L bribe, donation make me a fanatic?

Because that's what the rules say.

I can prove my Loyalty and Passion by making a huge donation, far exceeding anyone else's.

10 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I could see it making the temple better disposed towards me, but it shouldn't make me more devout.

Bribing increases your chances of passing Examinations as well, to become an Initiate or Rune Level. RuneQuest cults are great!

These aren't puritanical Christian cults, where ostentatious displays of wealth are frowned upon. These are Bronze Age cults where giving enough money to build a new room on the Temple makes you more devout.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Because that's what the rules say.

I can prove my Loyalty and Passion by making a huge donation, far exceeding anyone else's.

Bribing increases your chances of passing Examinations as well, to become an Initiate or Rune Level. RuneQuest cults are great!

These aren't puritanical Christian cults, where ostentatious displays of wealth are frowned upon. These are Bronze Age cults where giving enough money to build a new room on the Temple makes you more devout.

wealth redistribution is key, everyone say it with me

[g33k]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

wealth redistribution is key, everyone say it with me

WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION IS KEY!!!

Now let's go redistribute some wealth from Sedenya's temple in Glamour, to Ernalda in Nochet  and  Orlanth in Boldhome!

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION IS KEY!!!

Now let's go redistribute some wealth from Sedenya's temple in Glamour, to Ernalda in Nochet  and  Orlanth in Boldhome!

Damn straight. And to Yinkin, because kitty needs fishie.

[g33k]

4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Damn straight. And to Yinkin, because kitty needs fishie.

...

I'm OK with that.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Because that's what the rules say.

Yuk. Bad rules.The rules used to say you could improve you skills by buying experience potions, too, but it was a bad idea so it got dropped.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I can prove my Loyalty and Passion by making a huge donation, far exceeding anyone else's.

Bribing increases your chances of passing Examinations as well, to become an Initiate or Rune Level. RuneQuest cults are great!

These aren't puritanical Christian cults, where ostentatious displays of wealth are frowned upon. These are Bronze Age cults where giving enough money to build a new room on the Temple makes you more devout.

Yes, but none of that would actually make someone more passionate about something. I mean a Lunar governor could just make a big payoff to the Orlanth cult and become a member of high standing. In a couple of years they could probably co-opt every local cult and lunarize them. 

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The rules used to say you could improve you skills by buying experience potions, too, but it was a bad idea so it got dropped.

What? They dropped that? inconceivable!

 

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I mean a Lunar governor could just make a big payoff to the Orlanth cult and become a member of high standing. In a couple of years they could probably co-opt every local cult and lunarize them. 

Hee, hee, hee, hee!

We hide our secret plan in the open, where nobody can see it.

[jajagappa]

57 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, but none of that would actually make someone more passionate about something.

So, I've just dropped 10000L in donations to my temple. Damn right I'm going to make sure that Warding gets upgraded, the initiates are donating extra MP's to the wyter, the priests are gilding the statues, I get my own bench where I can clearly hear the priestess, etc. And I don't want any one coming round and saying my temple isn't the best temple and most devoted to the deity!  What's more Loyal than that? (It's not Devotion - which is a whole different fanatic thing.)

Edited December 1, 2019 by jajagappa

[Joerg]

Sacrifices of coin feel fairly modern...

So each cow gives you a 1% bonus, and five cows give you a 2% permanent raise in the passion. Praxian herd beasts probably translate similarly.

Or in other words, go raid your neighbors, bring three cattle to their next clan rites, and gain loyalty 60% to that wyter/temple?

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

So, I've just dropped 10000L in donations to my temple. Damn right I'm going to make sure that Warding gets upgraded, the initiates are donating extra MP's to the wyter, the priests are gilding the statues, I get my own bench where I can clearly hear the priestess, etc. And I don't want any one coming round and saying my temple isn't the best temple and most devoted to the deity!  What's more Loyal than that? (It's not Devotion - which is a whole different fanatic thing.)

Quite a bit. Like say the people who are actually doing all those upgrades and spending the MP.

The problem with Loyalty for gifts is that anyone could donate money to any cult and get instant loyalty. So a Cacodaemon cultist could ride into town, dump a small fortune to the Storm Bull cult and instantly become a loyal Storm Bull cultists!

Of what if someone make a donation in someone else's name? 

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

19 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The problem with Loyalty for gifts is that anyone could donate money to any cult and get instant loyalty. So a Cacodaemon cultist could ride into town, dump a small fortune to the Storm Bull cult and instantly become a loyal Storm Bull cultists!

 

Oh sure and next yer going to bring Real World Politics into this...

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sacrifices of coin feel fairly modern...

But are easy to work with.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

So each cow gives you a 1% bonus, and five cows give you a 2% permanent raise in the passion. Praxian herd beasts probably translate similarly.

Probably. I'm not going to work out how many pigs they need to sacrifice, or how many cows. I just care about the money, baby.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or in other words, go raid your neighbors, bring three cattle to their next clan rites, and gain loyalty 60% to that wyter/temple?

Absolutely. 

Why wouldn't that work?

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

The problem with Loyalty for gifts is that anyone could donate money to any cult and get instant loyalty. So a Cacodaemon cultist could ride into town, dump a small fortune to the Storm Bull cult and instantly become a loyal Storm Bull cultists!

Yes, that works.

The Cacodemon cultists probably uses False Form to trick and infiltrate the Storm Bull Temple. If be brings a herd of cattle to sacrifice then why wouldn't he be treated well?

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Of what if someone make a donation in someone else's name? 

That might work, but the Priests might wonder why the donor hasn't come along, perhaps he's too snooty and stuck up, perhaps he's busy, perhaps he's not what he seems. A lot of Kings and Queens have donated money in the Real World's past to places they have never been.