Vinga

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Ultimately, guess I'm asking why we even have a Vinga and a Yelorna?  I just want to run a capable, empowered, a slight "chip on her shoulder" female Sartarite warrior.  If Greg and Jeff want to get rid of all the older Vingan myths that many enjoyed, which is certainly their prerogative, what is the purpose of the cult?  Just have Orlanth.  Maybe the new Cults of Glorantha book will explain.

And do we really need a whole cult for icy unicorn riding virgins?  Stereotypes anyone?

Yelorna is Ourania, the only female Solar deity, and the Yelornans are Her only cult. Also, they are a parallel to the Yelmalions, who are for men. Both are Nysalorean-origin cults that pair together as outliers and have their own territories. They are a matched pair.

Plus, they ride unicorns.

Vinga is Orlanth, it's one of the many kinds of Orlanth you can worship. This one is the form Orlanth took, the Defender of the Stead, when women rose to protect the tula when the Wind Tribe rode to war. Vingans are a special role in Orlanthi society aside from being a Wind-Movement cult.

[Bill the barbarian]

7 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Plus, they ride unicorns.

 

‘nuff said!

[Eff]

7 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yelorna is Ourania, the only female Solar deity, and the Yelornans are Her only cult. Also, they are a parallel to the Yelmalions, who are for men. Both are Nysalorean-origin cults that pair together as outliers and have their own territories. They are a matched pair.

Plus, they ride unicorns.

Vinga is Orlanth, it's one of the many kinds of Orlanth you can worship. This one is the form Orlanth took, the Defender of the Stead, when women rose to protect the tula when the Wind Tribe rode to war. Vingans are a special role in Orlanthi society aside from being a Wind-Movement cult.

Yeah. If the warrior women cults are just game-mechanical abstractions to allow women to play traditional adventurers while not being weirdos like Humakti and Storm Bullies or Lunars, then the restrictions are kind of 🤔. But if they have a Gloranthan reason for existing, then they're pretty much fun. Unicorn riders! Earthquake summoners! Women with bright red hair doing the Final Fantasy Dragoon thing with wind magic! The Kalin Kadiev (iirc) art of the Axe Maiden where she's painted her hands blood red up to the wrists and the rest of her arms the color of dark earth! All prime stuff!

[Bill the barbarian]

7 minutes ago, Eff said:

then they're pretty much fun. Unicorn riders! Earthquake summoners! Women with bright red hair doing the Final Fantasy Dragoon thing with wind magic!

Yes but, they have unicorns, what could be cooler than ducks, even rich ones , Unicorns, that's what!!

[Bill the barbarian]

Sorry I will be fine now, someone said Yelorna and Unicorns started dancing before my transfixed eyes....

Was that a Unicorn... I’ll be fine...

Edited December 3, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[jajagappa]

39 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Yelorna is Ourania, the only female Solar deity, and the Yelornans are Her only cult.

Yelorna is the Star Huntress, with connections to Orogeria and other celestial hunter figures.  She is not Ourania who is the channel to Dayzatar and leads the celestial choir. They are distinct figures.

[Jeff]

Vinga's role is to be a female manifestation of Orlanth. Women can always join the other Orlanth cults as well (including Orlanth Adventurous), but Vinga is a women-only warrior society that is nonetheless an accepted part of the Orlanth cult. 

[Goldennose]

So women can be initiates of Orlanth Thunderous... And they don´t have to have red hair then? This is great news. Is it possible for a woman to be initiate in both, Ernalda and Orlanth? Lay member status, of course, but an initiate?

 

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, Caras said:

So women can be initiates of Orlanth Thunderous... And they don´t have to have red hair then? This is great news. Is it possible for a woman to be initiate in both, Ernalda and Orlanth? Lay member status, of course, but an initiate?

 

Yes, but it does mean that they need both the Air, Earth, Movement, Harmony, and Fertility Runes. Which is a pretty rare combination.

The Barter subcult is shared by both Ernalda and Orlanth.

[gochie]

On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 3:15 AM, Jeff said:

Vinga's role is to be a female manifestation of Orlanth. Women can always join the other Orlanth cults as well (including Orlanth Adventurous), but Vinga is a women-only warrior society that is nonetheless an accepted part of the Orlanth cult. 

I think the concept is simple enough, but the real question, as mentioned above,  is "why?". Why do we need a subcult that only adds one spell and is restricted to women? I don't really see what it adds to the game when women can just join Orlanth Adventurous.

Min-Maxers will want to make female/Vingan adventurers just for the extra spell, but otherwise there is no real reason for picking that subcult (at least without more history behind it).

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, gochie said:

I think the concept is simple enough, but the real question, as mentioned above,  is "why?". Why do we need a subcult that only adds one spell and is restricted to women? I don't really see what it adds to the game when women can just join Orlanth Adventurous.

Min-Maxers will want to make female/Vingan adventurers just for the extra spell, but otherwise there is no real reason for picking that subcult (at least without more history behind it).

It exists because sometimes Orlanth was a Woman, just as when Orlanth was a lover he was Niskis, when he was a Storm he was Umbrol, when he was a musician he was Drogarsi.

When you need to use the power that was learned through this, you worship Vinga as a part of Orlanth. Just as when you need to use his storm powers, you call upon King Umbrol. And of course it's not like these have to be separate either. Vinga could be Nikis or Drogarsi or Vinga Desemborth. As for only having one spell, previous versions of Orlanth have also had subcults with just a single spell. Such as the Sandals of Darkness subcult, which has been folded into the main Adventurous subcult/aspect.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, gochie said:

I think the concept is simple enough, but the real question, as mentioned above,  is "why?". Why do we need a subcult that only adds one spell and is restricted to women? I don't really see what it adds to the game when women can just join Orlanth Adventurous.

Min-Maxers will want to make female/Vingan adventurers just for the extra spell, but otherwise there is no real reason for picking that subcult (at least without more history behind it).

Why? Because it is an all-female warrior society that crosses clan lines. Because worshiping a female manifestation of the Storm God can be a different thing from worshiping a male manifestation of the Storm God. Because it makes it clear that women that they are Orlanth too. Why worship Shakti as the active female energy of Shiva? Why worship Vaishnavi instead of just worshiping Vishnu? Or Maheshvari instead of just Shiva? For many people worshiping the female incarnation gives a different twist on it. Same thing with Vinga - worshiping Orlanth as a goddess gives a different twist than Orlanth as a god. And as a Movement/Change god, Orlanth is sometimes all about the twist.

[Atgxtg]

On 12/3/2019 at 2:14 PM, Monty Lovering said:

To be honest I never saw the point of patriarchal fantasy societies. To much like reality. 

Do you see a  point a matriarchal fantasy societies?

 

On 12/3/2019 at 3:49 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Ultimately, guess I'm asking why we even have a Vinga and a Yelorna? 

And do we really need a whole cult for icy unicorn riding virgins?  Stereotypes anyone?

Sotakss is right of coruse we do. It's about diversity. If you just run all the cultures as the same then then it really isn't all that diverse. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Atgxtg said:

Do you see a  point a matriarchal fantasy societies?

 

Sotakss is right of coruse we do. It's about diversity. If you just run all the cultures as the same then then it really isn't all that diverse. 

Or why was there a big Mary cult in medieval Christianity (and later)? Why the cult veneration of the Virgin Mary, when it is clearly Christ Pantocrator who gives out the cool spells? 

[Monty Lovering]

 

7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Do you see a  point a matriarchal fantasy societies?

 

Well, at least that's different to everyday life, LOL.

As is wonderful about the whole YGMV, I've always wanted that a fantasy society's differences that don't alienate female role-players. So female warriors are known and accepted in any culture, and in some cultures women are just as commonly accepted as the norm in leadership roles as they are seen as an exception in others - which Esrolia always was out of the box.

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Or why was there a big Mary cult in medieval Christianity (and later)? Why the cult veneration of the Virgin Mary, when it is clearly Christ Pantocrator who gives out the cool spells? 

Or how about the differences between Western Christianity and Greek Orthodox, or the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, and why it was  dropped.

My point is that  there is this push to design all RPG settings under present daty ideal and  morals, and  that is just bad gaming. In a game, we need differences in cultures both to avoid blandness, and to allow for and showcase conflict. It we model every culture on 21st century ideals of equality and tolerance, then why aren't they all just getting along and having a good time? There is nothing left to have adventures about.

It's the same reason why we need  villains to be bad people. If everyone is nice a reasonable and willing to work out  a deal, we have a  great place to  live, but a  lousy place to adventure.

[gochie]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Why? Because it is an all-female warrior society that crosses clan lines. Because worshiping a female manifestation of the Storm God can be a different thing from worshiping a male manifestation of the Storm God. Because it makes it clear that women that they are Orlanth too. Why worship Shakti as the active female energy of Shiva? Why worship Vaishnavi instead of just worshiping Vishnu? Or Maheshvari instead of just Shiva? For many people worshiping the female incarnation gives a different twist on it. Same thing with Vinga - worshiping Orlanth as a goddess gives a different twist than Orlanth as a god. And as a Movement/Change god, Orlanth is sometimes all about the twist.

I see your point… If Vinga is fleshed out. As it is, there is nothing in the RQG book that explains what/who/why she is, for new players anyways (which I am not); she just seems thrown in as an afterthought. Hopefully she is further developed (with myths) in the upcoming Gods of Glorantha volumes to give the subcult a bit more personality and make players want to join it.

Edited December 5, 2019 by gochie

[Atgxtg]

18 minutes ago, Monty Lovering said:

Well, at least that's different to everyday life, LOL.

I'm not so convinced. I

 

Quote

As is wonderful about the whole YGMV,

There is another thread where YGMV is under attack for being too intimidating or something. 

Quote

I've always wanted that a fantasy society's differences that don't alienate female role-players. So female warriors are known and accepted in any culture, and in some cultures women are just as commonly accepted as the norm in leadership roles as they are seen as an exception in others - which Esrolia always was out of the box.

Well there are some concerns with such a fantasy  society: Problems with the economics ( full time warriors are expensive and  rare), biology (on average men have greater upper body Strength and are not hindered  by pregnancy), which would need to be dealt with in some way. Then there is this risk of making all the cultures too much alike-although that depends on what else the cultures a ll agree on.

I think that if people try to shoehorn every culture to fit one set of beliefs they are going to wind up with every culture being the same culture.

I'm surprised though that while people do bring up gender a lot, and sometimes race, no one ever seems bothered by the class  structure inherent in most FRPG settings.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Atgxtg said:

I think that if people try to s hoehorn every culture to fit one set of beliefs they are going to wind up with every culture being the same culture.

 

Now look here feller, I have hoehorned more cultures than there are angels dancing on pins.... and if I wanna hoehorn more, well it’s my gods given right (it’s right here in the constitution I am sure of it..).

Hoehorning my way into history!

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now look here feller, I have hoehorned more cultures than there are angels dancing on pins.... and if I wanna hoehorn more, well it’s my gods given right (it’s right here in the constitution I am sure of it..).

Hoehorning my way into history!

LOL! Don't you mean istory?.

[Monty Lovering]

47 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

"There is another thread where YGMV is under attack for being too intimidating or something."

A classic example of Barnum's Maxim.

"Well there are some concerns with such a fantasy  society: Problems with the economics ( full time warriors are expensive and  rare), biology (on average men have greater upper body Strength and are not hindered  by pregnancy), which would need to be dealt with in some way. Then there is this risk of making all the cultures too much alike-although that depends on what else the cultures a ll agree on."

I think if we can have five-mile long dragons and dwarves we can have a society where the sexes are not as dimorphic as they are on Terra; or at least, if you look under humans in the RQ3 Creature Book, where female Adventurers are thought of as a type apart and don't get different dice for some characteristics.

"I'm surprised though that while people do bring up gender a lot, and sometimes race, no one ever seems bothered by the class  structure inherent in most FRPG settings."

That's because class is never implemented "properly". On the rare occasions PC does play a non-free class, or partially free class, it doesn't actually affect the play. They are a runaway serf or a freed slave. And for the free lower classes, then the fact that much would be barred to them in many Terran societies of that ilk is not the case.

I mean, maybe there are people running successful campaigns where the players are Brithini peasants living in Brithini society? Don't think so, and I admire them if they try. Sucks if your Master Taps you though... Same reason why people don't play food-class trollkin (but I'm up for a campaign as a superior trollkin in troll society anytime, that would be fun).

That's why class isn't an issue. Good old handwavium.

And race is understandably a no-go area. I also think the presumption that in fantasy world's with different intelligent species, differences in human skin tone would cease to be a significant differentiator is correct.

But the 'oh female characters can only do x or y' (not saying anyone here is supporting this stance) is, in my fantasy worlds, either tiresome or the subject of parody.

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Monty Lovering
missed word

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, Monty Lovering said:

think if we can have five-mile long dragons and dwarves we can have a society where the sexes are not as dimorphic as they are on Terra; or at least, if you look under humans in the RQ3 Creature Book, where female Adventurers are thought of as a type apart and don't get different dice for some characteristics.

Yes you can have a  society where the sexes are not as dimorphic as on Terra. But I think it you did you'd have to  defend it  too. But the big problems are ususaly ones of ecomomics and chidlbirth-at least in settings that actually do something with economics and cultures. In D&D where the  PC are travelling outsiders who find vast sums of wealth tucked away under every mountain and subterranean complex the money isn't an issue, and childbirth less so. 

In a society that actually has some sort of economic structure, arms, armor and the traning an practice time required to gain and maintain proficiency with them aren't cheap, and it takes alot of people working in the fields to support one person who doesn't. Now Glorantha does have a lot of magic, and females a lot of fertility magic, so that might offset the food production, but the child birth issues could probably due to some help as well. So either the female warriors are somewhat celibate or they will be out of commission at least sometime due to giving birth. Some sort of "Surrogate Parent" spell might be the solution here.

11 minutes ago, Monty Lovering said:

That's because class is never implemented "properly". On the rare occasions PC does play a non-free class, or partially free class, it doesn't actually affect the play. They are a runaway serf or a freed slave. And for the free lower classes, then the fact that much would be barred to them in many Terran societies of that ilk is not the case.

I think that depends on what game you are playing and who is running it. Pendragon goes out of it was to enforce status. Mind you  players are always knights. Or at least almost always. Still I wonder by that reasoning if making all player character male would accomplish the same thing? Are we all just snubbing the poor because in RPGs we never really are poor. In fact most PCs I know are much better off financially than their players are in the real world

15 minutes ago, Monty Lovering said:

. Same reason why people don't play food-class trollkin (but I'm up for a campaign as a superior trollkin in troll society anytime, that would be fun).

Look at Trollpack. There PCS can be  trollkin, and BTW, Superior  Trollkin are generally food-class for being too smart ("Uppity"). You can't get too much lower of the social ladder in Glroantha than a trollkin while still retaining intelligence.

 

[Atgxtg]

42 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So there is are all-female versions of Orlanth & Yelmalio, but no all-male versions?  Maybe I'll run a male character who insists on joining Vinga and hires expensive lawyers.  🙂

THere is probably a HeroQuest for that. Seriously, Arkat  became a Troll, right?

[Minion1stClass]

4 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So either the female warriors are somewhat celibate or they will be out of commission at least sometime due to giving birth. 

 

You are discounting a LOT of sexual activity with this. There's plenty of fun sexy times that don't involve pregnancy as a potential side effect. No need to abstain from fun times. Just keep the p out of the v. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

16 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So either the female warriors are somewhat celibate or they will be out of commission at least sometime due to giving birth. Some sort of "Surrogate Parent" spell might be the solution here.

You assume they don't have contraceptives? Silphium was so effective in the ancient world that we made it extinct, and we are discounting that this world is made of magic entirely

Also that not all sex involves a p in v, even assuming you are with someone who has a penis.