Jump to content

Vinga


Goldennose

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes you can have a  society where the sexes are not as dimorphic as on Terra. But I think it you did you'd have to  defend it  too. But the big problems are ususaly ones of ecomomics and chidlbirth-at least in settings that actually do something with economics and cultures. In D&D where the  PC are travelling outsiders who find vast sums of wealth tucked away under every mountain and subterranean complex the money isn't an issue, and childbirth less so. 

In a society that actually has some sort of economic structure, arms, armor and the traning an practice time required to gain and maintain proficiency with them aren't cheap, and it takes alot of people working in the fields to support one person who doesn't. Now Glorantha does have a lot of magic, and females a lot of fertility magic, so that might offset the food production, but the child birth issues could probably due to some help as well. So either the female warriors are somewhat celibate or they will be out of commission at least sometime due to giving birth. Some sort of "Surrogate Parent" spell might be the solution here.

I think that depends on what game you are playing and who is running it. Pendragon goes out of it was to enforce status. Mind you  players are always knights. Or at least almost always. Still I wonder by that reasoning if making all player character male would accomplish the same thing? Are we all just snubbing the poor because in RPGs we never really are poor. In fact most PCs I know are much better off financially than their players are in the real world

Look at Trollpack. There PCS can be  trollkin, and BTW, Superior  Trollkin are generally food-class for being too smart ("Uppity"). You can't get too much lower of the social ladder in Glroantha than a trollkin while still retaining intelligence.

 

Why is it necessary to defend minimal dimorphism but not five-mile long dragons? 

I mean if you want, one could posit reduced maternal and infant mortality in a magic-using culture would free women from a life of childbirth and care as they have in a science-using world. Add in extended families providing child care and it becomes easy to countenance a woman taking a warrior path passing a child to a mother, aunt or sister to wet nurse and returning to that path after less than a year “off” (not that childbirth or pregnancy is a cosy sabbatical)  just professional female athletes can do today without wet nurses. 
 

And Pendragon proves my point. It’s dull role-playing peasants unless you make them anachronistic peasants in an anachronistic society. Nothing to do with ‘snubbing the poor’, rolling a critical on animal husbandry is just not what most people want in a session of role play. 

its like in the sci-fi RPG, it’s quite possible to run it as a trading game but then it becomes roll-play to determine the success of your trading rather than role play.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Monty Lovering said:

Why is it necessary to defend minimal dimorphism but not five-mile long dragons? 

Five mile long dragons can defend themselves.Besides they ate the guy we sent over to ask them if they wanted to be defended. It seems all they want is ketchup.

Quote

I mean if you want, one could posit reduced maternal and infant mortality in a magic-using culture would free women from a life of childbirth and care as they have in a science-using world. Add in extended families providing child care and it becomes easy to countenance a woman taking a warrior path passing a child to a mother, aunt or sister to wet nurse and returning to that path after less than a year “off” (not that childbirth or pregnancy is a cosy sabbatical)  just professional female athletes can do today without wet nurses. 

Yes you could. Should you? By that I mean does that fit the setting? I think it is far more important to be true to the setting. As long as female warriors fit the setting and culture then fine, if not then too bad. For instance, I don't believe there should be many, if any female warriors among Mistress Race trolls. They are just too important to risk that way. I don't know about Mostaili. I haven't read enough of the lOre on them to know if they are  made, born, or have gender, or even if gender might be from attachments. 

 

Quote

And Pendragon proves my point. It’s dull role-playing peasants unless you make them anachronistic peasants in an anachronistic society. Nothing to do with ‘snubbing the poor’, rolling a critical on animal husbandry is just not what most people want in a session of role play. 

Especially when there isn't a animal husbandry skill. Of course with Pensdragon it's pretty much dull playing anything but a knight, anyway, as the game is designed around knights. But I do not believe the game should be changed to accommodate peasants either, or merchants or much else. It's fine for an Arthruian game to be about knights. 

Quote

its like in the sci-fi RPG, it’s quite possible to run it as a trading game but then it becomes roll-play to determine the success of your trading rather than role play.  

That depends on what else is going on , and frankly can apply to any sort of RPG, not just sci-fi. Old time D&Ders will be familar with the phase  "Room, Monster, Treasure." and some campaigns are all about the PC  going into rooms, killing monsters, taking the treasure and repating the process until they level up, get better magic, and do it all over again.

Edited by Atgxtg
  • Like 1

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

You assume they don't have contraceptives? Silphium was so effective in the ancient world that we made it extinct, and we are discounting that this world is made of magic entirely

Also that not all sex involves a p in v, even assuming you are with someone who has a penis.

 No, but I do assume that without pregnancy the populations won't be self sustaining.  

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Minion1stClass said:

You are discounting a LOT of sexual activity with this. ;) There's plenty of fun sexy times that don't involve pregnancy as a potential side effect. No need to abstain from fun times. Just keep the p out of the v. 

I'll discount all sexual activity beyond that needed for procreation. It's not about what two consenting whatever do in the private or elsewhere, but what happens to a population that doesn't  replace itself with new members.

The modern world has a lot of things that let us get around a lot of the  difficulties associated with all this. Now maybe a fantasy game world could as well. Maybe it sometimes should. But I think we need to consider the ramifications and any such changes, and if they would fundamentally alter the cultures. 

Hmmm, I wonder  how many points SUMMON STORK should be? Can it be multispelled? Would the delivery animal change based on cult familiars? Would worshipers of the Red Goddess summon a bat? I don't know about Glorantha, but it would be an interesting to pursue all those stories were were told as to the origins of children back when we were younger, and make them true for a game setting.

 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Atgxtg 

Quote

Especially when there isn't a animal husbandry skill.

Just because they've rolled a bunch of skills up into farming doesn't mean a farmer growing grapes would know which young rams to let tup and which to make wethers, or that a shepherd could make decent wine. Granted, there would not be specialisation like today, but already there was. So, yeah, there's a animal husbandry skill and a brewing skills and a vinification skill, etc..

But as most people don't want to be bothered with all that (arguably as it is a classic roll play vs role play thing), it's 'farming'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Monty Lovering said:

@Atgxtg 

Just because they've rolled a bunch of skills up into farming doesn't mean a farmer growing grapes would know which young rams to let tup and which to make wethers, or that a shepherd could make decent wine. Granted, there would not be specialisation like today, but already there was. So, yeah, there's a animal husbandry skill and a brewing skills and a vinification skill, etc..

But as most people don't want to be bothered with all that (arguably as it is a classic roll play vs role play thing), it's 'farming'.

Nope. There is no farming skill in the game either. There is just "industry" and is basically covers practically anything deemed to be manual labor. Which is the reason why is downplayed in the game. It's something knights are not permitted to do, and not even listed on thier character sheet.

 

As for people n ot wanting to roleplay something , well that's not all bad. Part of the fun of RPGs is that you get to play people very different from yourself doing things that you do get to do. Nobody really wants to roleplay their day job, or most other people real jobs. 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'll discount all sexual activity beyond that needed for procreation. It's not about what two consenting whatever do in the private or elsewhere, but what happens to a population that doesn't  replace itself with new members.

 

 

Which may be an interesting discussion on its own, but has nothing to do with gameplay. Because most people aren't playing a sim, they're playing an adventuring game and no one wants to be lectured about how shame on their pc for not having kids because the pretend clan can't make it now. Possessing a vagina should not be something used to hamper gameplay for female characters. I don't care about sustainability. I care about playing the game. 

  • Like 3

Inactive account.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Minion1stClass said:

Which may be an interesting discussion on its own, but has nothing to do with gameplay.

Actually it does. First in terms of what happens to a culture over time. If none of the females are having babies, ever, then how do these people continue on? Secondly, like Pendragon, RQG takes place over multiple generations, so if a character has a child or not matters in terms long term play. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Since RQG is expressly multi-generational in character creation, and has explicit end of year rolls for the harvest, births and deaths, I think that both male and female characters should consider their descendants.  Asking a female PC to take some time off seems very reasonable. 

Yes, and here is where we get into some of the real world considerations that need to be dealt with somehow in game. Namely how does a culture handle having a reduction in fighting Strength due to  women warriors being out of combat condition due to pregnancy and childbrith? And what do their enemies do about it. It's another subtle advantage to having the men to the fighting and one of the reasons why the majority of warriors were male. The men don't have as  big a role in the process and so are available to do other things, such as fighting.

Now in  a world like Glorantha, they might be magical ways to address some or all of these concerns.

 

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As would asking a male PC to take time off for other family or societal obligations.  

"Argrath, sure, defeating Jar-Eel and relighting the Flame of Sartar is fine and all that, but when are you going to settle down with a nice girl and give me some grandchildren?"  (Yes, I know he's an orphan, but can't resist) 

Yup, there would certainly be a lot of that going on. Plus is everybody had a significant number of women in their armies then there might be customs regarding just when it's not okay to go to war. For instance in medieval NOthern Europe the harvest came in during the fall, so there were few battles during harvest time, and the weather during winter usually helped to keep people at home, so that would be a good time for women warriors to have children, since there wasn't going to be much fighting going on anyway.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

If none of the females are having babies, ever, then how do these people continue on?

this is a straw dog

these roles are a tiny percentage of the population, and Vingans can reproduce if they want to.

The remainder of the population that can bear children do so as much as they want to, and in fact the Earth rune is all about fertility.

There's no threat to the population of a clan with 500 women because they have three Vingans who don't want to bear children (the other one does) and one Babeesterite (they reap, making them great midwives but nobody's mother). In fact, it's likely that birth control is necessary to space births; there's only so much expansion that can be handled and with magical healers and midwives, the survival rates of childbirth are going to be so much better than in the real world's bronze age. There are literally gods for that, and spells to transfer injury to second parties to ensure mothers and infants survive difficult births.

And in a time of war, a bunch of angry women dye their hair red temporarily and join the ranks of the defenders? They're widows and bereaved mothers. They will remarry and bear more children after the clan survives.

Edited by Qizilbashwoman
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Actually it does. First in terms of what happens to a culture over time. If none of the females are having babies, ever, then how do these people continue on? Secondly, like Pendragon, RQG takes place over multiple generations, so if a character has a child or not matters in terms long term play. 

Actually it doesn't.  Cultures over time are a case of statistical tends and large-scale events, not odd individuals like PC's.  Where in Ernalda's Name do you get "none of the women" from discussing low-percentage cult like Vinga or B.Gor?  Or singular cases like player-characters?  Why, for Orlanth's sake are you arguing a (flawed and invalid) simulationist model over MGF?  And why would a direct line of descent be relevant in a kith&kin setting like Glorantha when there are probably dozens of likely nieces and nephews on the Tula, to be next-gen PC's???

(Edit:. Ninja'ed by Qizilbashwoman, but she & I cover somewhat different points, so...)

Edited by g33k
  • Like 2

C'es ne pas un .sig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW, I think Vingans are able to become pregnant (though like @Qizilbashwoman  I think it likely there is a form of reliable contraception, though of course humans are idiots who are not in themselves reliable), and to give birth (and there is even a myth about it). What Vingans don't do is child rear and child raise. They hand the child over for child raising, and probably wet nursing. The former possibly even to a Nandan cultist (and who knows, maybe the latter). 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There's no threat to the population of a clan with 500 women because they have three Vingans who don't want to bear children

Indeed. Attempting to extrapolate a population collapse from a female adventurer's decision not to get pregnant is risible. Adventurers are atypical examples of their clan and very little of what they do can be generalised for the rest of their clan.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So there is are all-female versions of Orlanth & Yelmalio, but no all-male versions?  Maybe I'll run a male character who insists on joining Vinga and hires expensive lawyers.  🙂

There is no female incarnation of Yelmalio at all. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

Indeed. Attempting to extrapolate a population collapse from a female adventurer's decision not to get pregnant is risible. Adventurers are atypical examples of their clan and very little of what they do can be generalised for the rest of their clan.

Vinga is a small cult. Babeester Gor is a small cult. Maran Gor is a small cult. Maybe 3-5% of the population belongs to these cults. Of those, only Shaker Priestesses are celibate. Vingans or BG cultists may choose whether to have children or not, only BG is required to give up the child to the Earth Temple (although Vingans certainly might).

None of these cults are likely to threaten the demographic stability of the local population - except through their main activity: war.

As for the multigenerational aspect of the game - if you don't have any offspring yourself, you can always play another member of your kinship group. Time passes and characters die, but you don't HAVE to play your own offspring. Even in Pendragon.  

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Nope. There is no farming skill in the game either.

I thought it was obvious I was talking about RuneQuest @Atgxtg. You brought up Pendragon, which proved my point re. the existential dullness playing peasants doing what peasants actually did when there were actually peasants.

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

If none of the females are having babies, ever,

Literally no one said this. As has been pointed out by @Qizilbashwoman, it is a logical fallacy.

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Now in  a world like Glorantha, they might be magical ways to address some or all of these concerns.

 

What like Heal, Comfort Song, Heal Body, Healing Trance? 🙂 Also, given Gloranthas vary, I find the canonical spells lacking. Where's the 'Clean' spell? Like Glue (but larger areas) cleaned like POOF. And I am pretty sure that Uleria devotees could exercise reproductive control better than Terran courtesans. YGMV. And fertility goddess worth the POW should have magic that makes perineums far stretchier than they actually are.

So Barnilisa the Axe is basically able to do everything she does normally for six months of pregnancy, take it increasingly easy for three, has a month to recover fully, and then the temple looks after the child and she's back doing what all Babeester Gor love best, chopping up chaos beings and men who annoy her. Well, anything that annoys her but those two being her favourites. She should actually get a +1 CON for three months or so (the Soviet and allied state's athletics programmes discovered pregnancy boosted endurance, but had to get the athletes to have abortions to take advantage of this; with healing magics available to heal the body after childbirth, then the same benefits could be accrued without abortion).

Without being funny, all your reasons for objecting to female adventurers due to 'realism' don't stand up. So there would be cultures with certain biases of genders to roles, and these would vary just like Esrolia and Sartar vary. But in all except the cultures in which its hard to imagine any role-play taking place (e.g. Brithini), any woman who didn't;t want a conventional role would be able to pursue it, just as men would be able to pursue non-traditional roles (with the exception of those requiring specific genitalia or uteruses to do them).

And of course Yelmalio doesn't have a female incarnation. He's a Dara Happa apostasy worshipped by inadequates whose idea of battle is imitating hedgehogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Monty Lovering said:

And of course Yelmalio doesn't have a female incarnation. He's a Dara Happa apostasy worshipped by inadequates whose idea of battle is imitating hedgehogs.

hahahaha

glad to see I'm not the only one who bears a grudge against the warrior "saints", although mine is because of Gbaji taint and inherited field slavery.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

hahahaha

glad to see I'm not the only one who bears a grudge against the warrior "saints", although mine is because of Gbaji taint and inherited field slavery.

Elmal! Elmal! Throw down the Sun Dome!

I have a thing about Elmal resurgent as a true Orlanthi god displacing Yelmalio just as he was once displaced being a plot line for post 1625. Can't stand them. At least you can have a laugh and a drink with a Cacodaemon worshiper before he tries to eat your brains, Yelmalions are all "can I interest you in this informative pamphlet about the great god Yelmalio" if you ask them what o'clock it is.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

this is a straw dog

No it isn't. If a significant number of  a cultures warriors are female then that has significant consequences excominically, socially and militarily.

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

these roles are a tiny percentage of the population

Sounds like less than 1%. So why is everybody bending backwards changing everything to make this "more open to women" when they are all going to be special cases anyway?

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There's no threat to the population of a clan with 500 women because they have three Vingans who don't want to bear children (the other one does) and one Babeesterite (they reap, making them great midwives but nobody's mother).

No, none at all. And did we really need  to worry about this at all. 

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Actually it doesn't. 

It does if the warrior women represent a significant number of the warrior population. If not, then they are a fringe group and it doesn't matter, statistically what they do. Much the same how it doesn't usually matter much what any one group of adventures do, as far as  the big picture goes.

I thought we were discussing cultures with significant numbers of warrior women. Speaking of which, just how many warrior women are then in the Dragon Pass/Prax area?

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So why is everybody bending backwards changing everything to make this "more open to women" when they are all going to be special cases anyway?

All adventurers are special cases. But knowing where they fit into society (at least initially) is important in a Gloranthan role playing game.

I can't see that anyone is 'changing everything' though. It's just a character option. Other games churn those out all the time and nobody bleats about it. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Sounds like less than 1%. So why is everybody bending backwards changing everything to make this "more open to women" when they are all going to be special cases anyway?

 

Because special cases still matter? Because it's a roleplaying game built around playing as special cases? I mean, how many Humakti do you think a society can carry before it collapses economically?

------

On another note - if women can just join the ordinary Orlanth cults, can males join the ordinary Ernalda cults? Sorry, I might've missed the confirmation here, this thread moves a bit fast.

EDIT: I'm generally presuming that the percentage of females who wish to go vingan or any of the Dark Earth roles and abstain from childbearing might be offset by males who wish to go nandans and be childbearers. We are suddenly dealing with a factor that RW demographics never really had to consider. 

So basically, it's a very small, almost statistically insignificant flux of males and females moving in and out of childbearing/potential childbearing roles.

The vast majority of society is going to till the fields, milk the cows, raise kids, help out kinsfolk, take a trip to the market, help out in collective rituals, and every now and then take up weapons to drive off cattle thieves, avenge wronged kinsfolk, intimidate neighbors, and drive off violent strangers. Maybe occasionally actually participate in a pitched mass battle - but those are momentous occasions, even for the warlike Orlanthi. 

The importance of specialist subcults like vingans, babeester, nandans, etc. etc. is not predominantly about what they individually do, imho, but the ripple effects they have on greater society. A life-time vingan can help train other Orlanthi women for defensive warfare through unique cult secrets (as someone suggested earlier), a nandan might have special cult secrets too (maybe in addition to making males give birth, perhaps they also can help otherwise infertile females give birth - that's a very important benefit). A babeester Gorite helps keep would-be temple violators in line, a Humakti can serve as an impartial enforcer of kinds, Issarites allow neutral transference of goods for differing clans and communities, etc. 

Those effects are going to compound. The woman trained by a lifelong cult vingan can suddenly train other women in defensive warfare. A woman having been able to have kids with the help of a nandan (and this is just my presumptions) might go on to have a prosperous lineage. A temple kept safe by a Gorite, or a chief kept safe by a Humakti might go on to help their communities in many different way. This is the importance of specialists.

Social impact beyond just looking at numbers is key here.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Sounds like less than 1%. So why is everybody bending backwards changing everything to make this "more open to women" when they are all going to be special cases anyway?

I think there's an argument to be made for bending over backwards for half your player base. Also for just being inclusive in general. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

No it isn't. If a significant number of  a cultures warriors are female then that has significant consequences excominically, socially and militarily.

 

You are now shifting the goal posts. You said:

10 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

If none of the females are having babies, ever,

This is a straw man argument. No one said suggested this. And shifting the goal posts is another logical fallacy.

45 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So why is everybody bending backwards changing everything to make this "more open to women" when they are all going to be special cases anyway?

No one is bending over backwards. Here we go - you average GM's face when a player want to play a warrior woman:

🙂 

No sweat, no strain, no bother - no bending over backwards. As numerous comments have illustrated, it doesn't upend things or send society into population decline, only your hyperbole made this appear possible.

The only person thinking it's a big deal is you. Relax.  🙂 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...