Vinga

[Eff]

Historically, although regrettably I can't find the source now, about 10% of the population in Medieval Europe appears to have never had children. That's in the real world and without any relatively outre measures that are within the potential of described Orlanthi society. I think that the total percentage of non-reproductive people in a clan is probably less than 10% on average. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

32 minutes ago, Eff said:

Historically, although regrettably I can't find the source now, about 10% of the population in Medieval Europe appears to have never had children. That's in the real world and without any relatively outre measures that are within the potential of described Orlanthi society. I think that the total percentage of non-reproductive people in a clan is probably less than 10% on average. 

Interesting if it excluded those lost to child mortality (which it needs to in order to be meaningful.)

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Monty Lovering said:

 

You are now shifting the goal posts. You said:

And prior to that you said:

On 12/3/2019 at 2:14 PM, Monty Lovering said:

To be honest I never saw the point of patriarchal fantasy societies. To much like reality. 

Which is where I came into this, and where the goalposts were set. You weren't talking about making allowances for a handful of PCs,  but mentioning patriarchal societies.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

 

1 hour ago, Eff said:

Historically, although regrettably I can't find the source now, about 10% of the population in Medieval Europe appears to have never had children.

Well, at least some of the priests, monks, and nuns managed to remain celebrate.

1 hour ago, Eff said:

 

 

That's in the real world and without any relatively outre measures that are within the potential of described Orlanthi society. I think that the total percentage of non-reproductive people in a clan is probably less than 10% on average. 

I suspect that percentage is even higher today with birth control, planned parenthood and not everyone wanting to have children.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

I think there's an argument to be made for bending over backwards for half your player base. Also for just being inclusive in general. 

Sure. I'd also say there is an argument that it is half your player base too. Just how many gaming groups have an even mix of males  and females. 

It's silly to alter a setting to make it more inclusive because  then it;  isn't that setting anymore. It all ends up  becoming the same  setting, a  mix of modern day with a veneer of swords & Sandals or Sci-Fi on top.

 

 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Sure. I'd also say there is an argument that it is half your player base too. Just how many gaming groups have an even mix of males  and females. 

It's silly to alter a setting to make it more inclusive because  then it;  isn't that setting anymore. It all ends up  becoming the same  setting, a  mix of modern day with a veneer of swords & Sandals or Sci-Fi on top.

 

 

At this point, I have no idea what is even being argued about. Bring this thread back to discussing Vinga, or lets shut it down.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Jeff

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

All adventurers are special cases.

🤜Correct!🤛
Normal people stay home and worship normal gods.  History seldom remembers the homebodies.

1 hour ago, Sumath said:

But knowing where they fit into society (at least initially) is important in a Gloranthan role playing game.

If your character doesn't start out a weirdo, she or he quickly becomes one.  And they find a niche and mode of faith that supports their behavior.  The likes of Vinga and Yelorna are pathways to faith that's generally of like mind to typically masculine gods and pursuits.  To riff on Voltaire, if Vinga didn't exist, we'd have to invent her.  And, lo and behold, we did.

!i!

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It does if the warrior women represent a significant number of the warrior population. If not, then they are a fringe group and it doesn't matter, statistically what they do. Much the same how it doesn't usually matter much what any one group of adventures do, as far as  the big picture goes.

I thought we were discussing cultures with significant numbers of warrior women. Speaking of which, just how many warrior women are then in the Dragon Pass/Prax area?

You were specifically arguing "gameplay" -- i.e. at-the-table stuff, about PC's.  @Minion1stClass suggested it wasn't a gameplay issue, and you explicitly disagreed.

Now you seem to be backing away from that, and going to those broad background/setting topics; which is fine, let's talk about that!  Population dynamics where a substantial part of the military are women, vs the question of military stability, etc... and... GO!

 

*** I will point, first off, to the several nations who DO require (or encourage) women in the military.  Scandinavian ones, China, Israel (they're maybe the most famous?), and more.

I'm going to take Israel as my exemplar, because (AFAIK) the numbers are particularly-available (maybe my Google-fu just failed me on the others?  Feel free to search them out, because the facts from Israel... do not support your POV).

Wikipedia says that in 2016, the IDF considered about 1.5 million each (women and men) as "available for military service" (slightly fewer as "fit for military servce").  They figure about 60K of each gender, each year, joining the military for the minimum term (although it's true that "minimum" is only 2y for women, vs 3y for men).  OECD (which covers most of Europe and a smattering of other countries (including the USA) nevertheless finds the Israeli population-growth to be TRIPLE the average for OECD countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

NOBODY thinks the IDF is struggling to be effective or hampered by their female soldiers, DESPITE the fact that their foes mostly do NOT allow female soldiers -- a striking disparity!

China also drafts men and women, and famously struggles to keep their birthrate DOWN.

 

This issue isn't actually an issue... not even for mundane/Earthly militaries and the (stable or growing) populations they serve!

 

*** Then we add in the Gloranthan angle -- various magics that ease discomforts and/or allow full activities even in fairly advanced pregnancies:  Gloranthan women are even MORE able to serve in the militaries than in the Real World!

Also, even in advanced stages of pregnancy, many Ernaldans &c can perform military roles other than shieldwall duty -- summoning elementals and other spirits, for example -- from the back ranks and/or more-remote locations.

 

Pregnancy just isn't the "problem" you seem to think it (militarily) is.

 

EDIT:  SORRY, JEFF, JUST SAW THAT I CROSS-POSTED WITH YOUR DIRECTIVE BACK TO OP-TOPICALITY OF "VINGA"

edit 2:  we can always spin another thread, if needed.

Edited December 6, 2019 by g33k
mod hat rode into town!!!

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How do members of Vinga differ from women who worship Orlanth "directly"?  Especially with regard to attitudes towards men and childbearing?  (I assume that women who worship Orlanth directly have fairly "typical" attitudes)

Well first, Vingans are not women, Vinga had to obtain special permission from the Earth goddesses to bear children. Don't get mixed up by modern terminology. They have a subcult, it's going to be covered in GGG, and we have knowledge of previous versions of it from previous texts. Vingans can get pregnant, yes, in the usual ways. I think there is no generalised way that a Vingan thinks about sex or pregnancy, unlike Babeesterites, who surrender all births to the Earth temple full stop. Some might choose a family, same as any other Orlanth worshipper.

This focus on pregnancy and Vinga is a little tiresome. We've discussed it enough.

[Ian Absentia]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

This focus on pregnancy and Vinga is a little tiresome. We've discussed it enough.

The topic persists because people are still trying to wrap their heads around it.  Hooray for RuneQuest becoming so woke with regard to gender (see RQG p.80-81), but not everyone has entered the fold, in this world or that one.

!i!

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

The topic persists because people are still trying to wrap their heads around it.  Hooray for RuneQuest becoming so woke with regard to gender (see RQG p.80-81), but not everyone has entered the fold, in this world or that one.

!i!

it just feels like everything about women's roles has to be about sex, I get a little tired and it makes me a little babeestery

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, and here is where we get into some of the real world considerations that need to be dealt with somehow in game. Namely how does a culture handle having a reduction in fighting Strength due to  women warriors being out of combat condition due to pregnancy and childbrith? And what do their enemies do about it. It's another subtle advantage to having the men to the fighting and one of the reasons why the majority of warriors were male. The men don't have as  big a role in the process and so are available to do other things, such as fighting.

In cultures such as the Turkic or Mongol peoples, women warriors often defended the nomad camps while the men were at war. Some women joined the men, as there are accounts of women archers and warriors, but many female warriors were defensive. After all, who better to defend than someone who passionately cares about their home and family? The men who clear off all the time, or the women who stay around?

 

[Atgxtg]

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In cultures such as the Turkic or Mongol peoples, women warriors often defended the nomad camps while the men were at war. Some women joined the men, as there are accounts of women archers and warriors, but many female warriors were defensive. After all, who better to defend than someone who passionately cares about their home and family? The men who clear off all the time, or the women who stay around?

 

Yes and in Fedual Japan Samsuri women defended the estate and castle. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In cultures such as the Turkic or Mongol peoples, women warriors often defended the nomad camps while the men were at war. Some women joined the men, as there are accounts of women archers and warriors, but many female warriors were defensive. After all, who better to defend than someone who passionately cares about their home and family? The men who clear off all the time, or the women who stay around?

And before them, the Iranian pastoral peoples. The ancient Greeks wrote about them, and later, Herodotus, and we've got a ton of burial sites from the Eurasian steppes that show bodies grown with estrogen with bones that demonstrate they lived in the saddle, fired a shedload of arrows from recurved bows, and suffered sharp and blunt injury and death from fatal wounds to the front associated with combat, including arrowheads and weapon blows.

These burials are specifically associated with the early expansion of the Iranic-speaking peoples and demonstrate a particular kind of ritual hearth and cannabis, ephedra and cow urine use that shows up later in Zoroastrian ritual fires and use of hom (soma) and miz (cow urine). It's pretty specific and unusual, plus the words we have recorded from names are Iranian.

We also find here the first use of medication to change gender: persons who had undergone testosterone and then estrogen growth patterns buried in non-warrior clothing associated with women's roles with containers of pregnant mare's urine.

pre-ma-rin was the name of a medication I myself took when I first transitioned.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Yelorna?  (I asked about a loose "female version", not a strict "incarnation")

Yelorna is a very different cult to Yelamlio, in my opinion. She is the goddess of the Unicorn Riders and of the Shield Maidens, of individual warriors, of cavalrywomen and infantry. Yelmalio is the god of mercenaries, of phalaxes, of spearmen and of farmers. They overlap because Yelona is a warrior goddess and sometimes fights alongside Yelmalio, but I think they are very different.

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

On another note - if women can just join the ordinary Orlanth cults, can males join the ordinary Ernalda cults? Sorry, I might've missed the confirmation here, this thread moves a bit fast.

Women can join Orlanth or Vinga, or even both. at least, I'd like to think they could.

Men can become Lay Members of Ernalda, but not become Initiates. as far as I know, men cannot join the Eiritha cult, as that is female only.

49 minutes ago, g33k said:

edit 2:  we can always spin another thread, if needed.

Oh, please don't. No thread on why there are/aren't female warriors ends well. 

As far as I am concerned, females were warriors, have been warriors and  female PCs can be warriors if they want to be.

25 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Well first, Vingans are not women

For me, Vingans are women. They are women who fight, who take revenge and who usually return to their previous roles. They differ from Babeester Gori in that babeester gori tend to make permanent vows, rather than temporary ones.

26 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Vinga had to obtain special permission from the Earth goddesses to bear children.

And bearing children is not the definition of womanhood, otherwise infertile females are not women.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Men can become Lay Members of Ernalda, but not become Initiates.

That's not true. They can become Initiates, but they cannot become Rune Priestesses unless they initiate into the subcult of Nandan, as Rune Priestess "must have given birth to a healthy child." Jeff just clarified that the entire function of Nandan enables men to give birth to children (the method was not clarified).

Babeester and Eiritha don't permit male members. Maran Gor is initiate-only. Babeesterites, and perhaps Nandanites, can help Ernaldan women bear healthy children if they wish to become a Rune Priestess. Babeesterites cannot keep any children they bear and Maran Gor is a big fan of celibacy.

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

For me, Vingans are women.

Vingans are followers are Vinga. Temporary Vingans are not the same as cult members of Vinga, a form of Orlanth Adventurous. Vinga cult members have Storm and Movement runes. Temporary Vingans don't have any requirements at all (well, they can't have the Chaos rune, obvi).

Edited December 6, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Yelmalio is the god of mercenaries, of phalaxes, of spearmen and of farmers. They overlap because Yelona is a warrior goddess and sometimes fights alongside Yelmalio, but I think they are very different.

they are only connected because they were associated with Yamsur as semi-heretical Solar deities who lived with Genert in His Garden.

When Chaos came and Yamsur and Genert died, then-Yelorana and then-Little Yelm were marooned and scorned. When Nysalor arose, they were both ripe for conversion, so now both cults practice austerity and self-deprivation: celibacy and the like.

I'm not sure if Yelorna and Yelmalio were related or married or whatever. Their reaction to the destruction of the Garden is essentially "revulsion", like they had been tempted by Earth and now regret it so they are trying to purify themselves of it. A Dayzatarian reaction.

[soltakss]

15 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm not sure if Yelorna and Yelmalio were related or married or whatever.

Weren't they both children of Yelm?

[Ian Absentia]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Weren't they both children of Yelm?

Brother and sister, yeah.  Sunlight and Starlight, and of similar -- but distinct -- militant bent.

!i!

[Bill the barbarian]

29 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Jeff just clarified that the entire function of Nandan enables men to give birth to children (the method was not clarified).

Good, methods should never be clarified, butter, on the other hand, especially with a lobster nearby!

[Bill the barbarian]

Some major software glitch just almost crashed my computer (which is normally incredibly stable’s now for 8 years) Is it on this end? 

Glitch please remove @Trifletraxor and the following glitches as well. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[soltakss]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

Good, methods should never be clarified, butter, on the other hand, especially with a lobster nearby!

That was funny, but was it 5x Funny?

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Weren't they both children of Yelm?

which Yelm

but I digress.

They could have been children of Yamsur.

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Vingan cult members are frequently described as mothers and widows.  So they typically have breasts, give birth, and marry men.

What would you call that?  I'm seriously lost in this discussion...

Nooooo those are temporary members. A woman who is widowed or loses her children can declare she's gone Vingan and dye her hair to go righteously murder some baddies, typically under the leadership of actual Vingans. Actual Vingans, as in "cult members of Vinga who have the STORM + MOVEMENT runes". Anyone can "go Vingan" who has lost a family member to violence, regardless of runes.

Vinga: form of Orlanth Adventurous, a STORM + MOVEMENT cult. Vinga is Orlanth.

Vingan: cult member of said cult, not a woman because they belong to the Storm rune and Vinga had to Heroquest to get the right to even give birth when She got pregnant

temporary Vingan: wronged woman with any (non-Chaos) rune who dyes her hair red and joins actual Vingans to murder things until vengeance is done and she goes back to her life. They might be an Ernaldan Rune Priestess normally, but right now they're learning to fight with an axe better and wear armor because their hair is RED

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

That was funny, but was it 5x Funny?

Anything worth saying is obviously worth saying 5x.

This is the first time it has happened to me but i have seen it occur to others here... Odd!

Edited December 6, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[soltakss]

5 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

which Yelm

Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Rider, Yelm the Emperor or Yelm the Elder? It matters not.

5 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They could have been children of Yamsur.

But, they weren't, they are clearly the children of Yelm.

Now, some might say that Yamsur is a sun God and, therefore, just another version of Yelm, But I don't think that kind of thing really works.

Yamsur was the sun god of Genert's Garden, the Warming Sun, the Growing Sun, the Sun as Genert's Brother.

Yelm was the high sun, the Lofty Sun, the Emperor and looked down on the likes of Genert.