Vinga

[jajagappa]

14 minutes ago, soltakss said:

But, they weren't, they are clearly the children of Yelm.

Yelorna is daughter of Yelm, sister of Yelmalio and Yamsur. This hasn't changed from her original cult writeup.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

First, I don't buy the "Runes decide your sex/gender/whatever" argument.  But lets say I did.  My actual RQG VIngan PC's top 4 runes (all are 75%-80%) are Movement, Water, Storm, and Fertility.

The Water rune was chosen mainly on a "I don't know what I'm doing, let's try this" lark, it could easily have been Earth.  So one could easily have a cult member of Vinga who, depending on random die rolls from last season, is more Earth than Storm, and possibly more Fertility than either.

What is he/she/it?  Do I change gender season to season based on random D6 rolls?  I sure hope you aren't arguing that she should stay home knitting when Earth goes higher than Storm.  🙂

 

No, that's clearly absurd, partly because it would be terrible game design.

 

Similarly, we have fairly good reason to say that just because you have [INSERT ANATOMY] you don't HAVE to identify as man or a woman in Orlanthi society. 

While Orlanthi society is quite bi-sexed/binary due to their mythic alliance between male storm gods and female earth gods, gods such as Vinga, Nandan, Heler(a) and arguably Yinkin exist in part to show that this binary is not an absolute, nor necessarily desireable for everyone. Call them accommodations, call them pressure valves, or call them mythically valid life-ways. 

Is a lifelong Vingan cultist who acts as the Storm-worshipping "pater familias" of a household a transman or a ciswoman, or a different (third/fourth) gender? I'm not entirely sure, but what I do fairly confidently think is that an Orlanthi would find the question really odd and shake their head. "They are Vingan, obviously." And that's that. It's a life choice that does not require qualification or justification.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: In my comments here, I have tried to differentiate between male/female (biological sex/bodies - I've stuck to the binary so far) and men/women/third gender (social gender/gender role, etc.). I admit this categorization is not perfect, and also might not have been clearly visible to those not actively aware of it. If I were having a serious anthropological debate on gender I would try to get even more specific and deconstructive, but I feel like that this is not the place for that, so I've tried to keep it (relatively) straightforward. 

The point is that, imho, for some of these social roles to make sense, we need to step a bit back and relativize what we consider criteria for manhood, womanhood, etc., as that will be useful for putting social phenomena such as cultically enabled gender variants/expressions into context. It doesn't HAVE to be this complex (as I tried to outline above), but discussions cat get a bit heated, and once that happens, keeping a straight tongue and trying to share terminology is good to avoid talking past each other. 

Basically: Orlanthi consider forms of labor and cultic belonging to be as important, if not more, to gender roles as they do physical bodies. The latter is not irrelevant, clearly, but it is not the be-all-end-all of the matter.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

Although, in my usual fashion, the previous comments on why topics about Vinga always comes down to pregnancy made me wonder how Ernalda would react to a Nandan impregnating a woman. I am assuming it is possible. I am wondering if there is any mythical precedence for what happens to the birth-mother and offspring, socially.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why can't she just be a woman?

A question that I'm sure can be asked for Nandans as well.

[Bill the barbarian]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

While Orlanthi society is quite bi-gendered due to their mythic alliance between male storm gods and female earth gods, gods such as Vinga, Nandan, Heler(a) and arguably Yinkin exist in part to show that this binary is not an absolute, nor necessarily desireable for everyone. Call them accommodations, call them pressure valves, or call them mythically valid life-ways. 

 

The very coolest thing for me about Orlanthi religion and myth was always, Orlanth was destined to fail until. UNTIL, he talked to the “strange gods”.

When Orlanth went to talk to all (perhaps an Orlanthi All, I like to think he went above and beyond) to all the deities that he did (a very big tent party) a new destiny was being woven. Now this is not political (bear with me) though the time these Glorantha axioms being laid were. Today we would not call them the strange gods, but I like the poetry of the name and how it rolls off the tongue so I keep it. I have always thought that this meant strange by the times (we were so much younger then) and that without all of the non-traditional friends he made and that he opens his arms and doors to, those he extended hospitality  the LBQ would not have won the day the Spider would not have woven Time, No Compromise. The end.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Tindalos]

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why can't she just be a woman?

That's an option although I'd not phrase it like that.

Vingan can mean multiple things, just as Orlanthi can. You can be a member of the cult of Vinga while not being a member of the Vingan gender, and vice versa.

[Tindalos]

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Let's agree that whoever coined the word "Vingan" for both cult members and a gender should be sacrificed to The Bat.

Eh, it's less reductionist than "females in male roles," but I can understand the blurring of terms isn't always helpful. FIMR and MIFR along with MR and FR. Or Vingite and Nandanite to separate them from the cult membership.

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Let's agree that whoever coined the word "Vingan" for both cult members and a gender should be sacrificed to The Bat.

Gaming is rife with "overloaded" terms, and always has been.  "What level did you get to?" in D&D might have meant what character level, how deep into the dungeon you delved, or how potent a spell could you cast.

Is "Ernaldori" any worshipper of Ernalda, or a member of a specific clan?

Vinga-the-Deity has some elements not conforming to binary M/F gender.  "Vingan" then may mean any mere worshippers of Vinga (who may in fact have cisfem gender (or may not)) OR someone whose non-binary gender relates mythically to Vinga's... But AFAIK such people needn't even be Vinga-worshippers!

[Jeff]

Going back to the RQG rules: 

GENDER

Gloranthans have a range of concepts regarding gender identity. The Orlanthi recognize four sexes (biological male, biological female, neither, and both) and six genders (male roles, female roles, females in male roles, males in female roles, both roles, neither roles). They recognize at least seven types of marriage. There are several polyandrous traditions and polygamy is not unknown. Many Orlanthi heroes married to Ernalda priestesses also have had male lovers (often of the same sex and gender). Their only serious taboo on sexuality involves those that have not been initiated as adults.

Nonetheless, some cults are restricted by sex and/or gender. 

-----

So the Orlanthi would understand most Vinga cultists as "biological female" (as that is based on plumbing) but in "male roles" (because they are are a warrior society). Vinga does not require celibacy nor restricts childbirth. 

Babeester Gor cultists are also "biological female" in "male role" and also does not require celibacy or restrict childbirth but does prohibit acting as a mother.

Maran Gor cultists are "biological female" (or "neither" in the case of eunuchs) in "female roles" BUT she does require celibacy for her priestesses.

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Going back to the RQG rules: 

GENDER

Gloranthans have a range of concepts regarding gender identity. The Orlanthi recognize four sexes (biological male, biological female, neither, and both) and six genders (male roles, female roles, females in male roles, males in female roles, both roles, neither roles). They recognize at least seven types of marriage. There are several polyandrous traditions and polygamy is not unknown. Many Orlanthi heroes married to Ernalda priestesses also have had male lovers (often of the same sex and gender). Their only serious taboo on sexuality involves those that have not been initiated as adults.

Nonetheless, some cults are restricted by sex and/or gender. 

-----

So the Orlanthi would understand most Vinga cultists as "biological female" (as that is based on plumbing) but in "male roles" (because they are are a warrior society). Vinga does not require celibacy nor restricts childbirth. 

Babeester Gor cultists are also "biological female" in "male role" and also does not require celibacy or restrict childbirth but does prohibit acting as a mother.

From this, I take that people who have only the "biologically male" flag activated cannot be Vingans, and that people who have only the "biologically female" flag activated cannot be Nandans. That still leaves the rare cases of people who have both (herm) or neither (ba, to use the terms of Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga) flag active. Either are androgynes, one sort doubly functional without any magic, the other doubly non-functional and requring magic to act reproductively in either role.

Then we have the biological and social roles of "father" and "mother". Nandans can become biological mothers under the right (magical) circumstances, and can fill the social role easily. Vingans can take the social role of father or husband easily, but there are no myths of Vinga impregnating another woman. (Why not? Or is it "Not yet"?)

Then we have sex-changing magic (looking at but not limited to Eurmal) or nature (Heler). Helering gender can take any social role except for neither.

Is there any deity for the neither role?

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Maran Gor cultists are "biological female" (or "neither" in the case of eunuchs) in "female roles" BUT she does require celibacy for her priestesses.

She doesn't have the mother role any more (where high ranking cultists have to sacrifice their baby boys)?

 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

From this, I take that people who have only the "biologically male" flag activated cannot be Vingans, and that people who have only the "biologically female" flag activated cannot be Nandans.

This has always been my reading.

[Bill the barbarian]

21 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Some major software glitch just almost crashed my computer (which is normally incredibly stable’s now for 8 years) Is it on this end? 

 

Thanks  @Trifletraxor!

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

From this, I take that people who have only the "biologically male" flag activated cannot be Vingans, and that people who have only the "biologically female" flag activated cannot be Nandans.

I wouldn't say "cannot", and instead say "mostly not". After all, Jeff said "Orlanthi would understand most Vinga cultists as "biological female"" (emphasis mine). I take this as a hint that these are all strong guidelines rather than unbreakable laws. I assume some temples are more strict than others. As always, player fun always trumps everything, so if a player has a good reason to be a male Vingan, with a good backstory, I would allow it. Similarly, if the story warrants it, a similarly rare NPC might make an appearance. Of course, in these cases, I would assume that the exploration of gender and societal roles would be a theme/story arc of the campaign, and would try to write the appropriate adventures to explore this. If the player just wants Vinga for some pure munchkinery, that's another story...

42 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why was that not considered adultery?

I read Jeff's statement as "they had male lovers in the past", as in, before their marriage. But I suppose open marriage arrangements happen too. Maybe some of them actually include things like "I'm the only woman in your life, if you want to have sex with other people, they can't be women"!

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Is there any deity for the neither role?

Depends what you mean by "neither role"? I would say that some of the very common clan occupations are "neither role" in the sense that they don't really have any strong male or female bias. Trading and commerce, services (inns) and stuff like that don't strike me as very gendered. Maybe even scholar positions, as Lankhor Mhy doesn't seem to care either way as long as you have a cool beard-like thing around the chin. But maybe that's more like "either role" and not "neither role". I'm not sure what actual "neither role" would be?

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

As always, player fun always trumps everything, so if a player has a good reason to be a male Vingan, with a good backstory, I would allow it.

Love the commitment to your players. Yes, MOB did a good thing introducing the idea of Maximum Game Fun!

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

From this, I take that people who have only the "biologically male" flag activated cannot be Vingans, and that people who have only the "biologically female" flag activated cannot be Nandans.

I wouldn't say "cannot", and instead say "mostly not". After all, Jeff said "Orlanthi would understand most Vinga cultists as "biological female"" (emphasis mine).

Yes. There is no mention whether and how a hermaphrodite or a (born) neuter can join either Vinga or Nandan, or identify as their gender.

 

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

I take this as a hint that these are all strong guidelines rather than unbreakable laws. I assume some temples are more strict than others.

Are there any temples to VInga? Maybe there is an all-(biologically)female warband with a Storm temple of their own somewhere in Glorantha, but I have no idea where to look for it. Not in Kheldon or Colymar lands despite their Vingan queens.

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

As always, player fun always trumps everything, so if a player has a good reason to be a male Vingan, with a good backstory, I would allow it.

A Nandan on a revenge trip might die her hair red. But that is approaching a Shakespeare actor (male, of course) playing a female character posing as her brother persuaded to wear drag. It takes a very attentive audience to keep track of this...

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

Similarly, if the story warrants it, a similarly rare NPC might make an appearance. Of course, in these cases, I would assume that the exploration of gender and societal roles would be a theme/story arc of the campaign, and would try to write the appropriate adventures to explore this.

Quests, interactions with Eurmal. Possibly an involuntary biological sex change or exchange halfway into the quest... But like I said, too many flips and flops and the point of being Vingan will be gone with the wind.

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

If the player just wants Vinga for some pure munchkinery, that's another story...

In that case, the player should choose a biologically female character and munchkin away. The character may still grow her own moustache.

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Is there any deity for the neither role?

Depends what you mean by "neither role"?

A mythical role that is completely asexual - probably to the utter frustration of the Trickster in his Seductress aspect.

While Humakt comes close, the consistent use of the male pronoun suggests that somewhere there dangles another kind of sword.

15 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I would say that some of the very common clan occupations are "neither role" in the sense that they don't really have any strong male or female bias. Trading and commerce, services (inns) and stuff like that don't strike me as very gendered.

Apart from the Orlanth and to a lesser degree Lhankor Mhy, the Lightbringers aren't very gendered. Eurmal seduces just about any encounter he feels like, whether the Underworld guardian Sinjota or the son of the Only Old One. The Issaries roles Harst, Garzeen and Goldentongue are presented as male, and only Etyries is presented as female. Garzeen even is sent on an impossible groom quest (which he apparently fails to complete, being the middle son). Chalana is the mother of Arroin. But their roles in society are open to either reproductive sex aspect and any gender.

Any gender is different from neutral gender.

15 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Maybe even scholar positions, as Lankhor Mhy doesn't seem to care either way as long as you have a cool beard-like thing around the chin. But maybe that's more like "either role" and not "neither role". I'm not sure what actual "neither role" would be?

I was wondering about that, hence my question.

There must be such a myth and such a role, since the biological sex and the gender exists in Glorantha. I myth, therefore I am.

[Lordabdul]

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Are there any temples to VInga?

Good question... but I mean, how do you actually become a Vingan? I assume you have to go somewhere and talk to somebody about it, so they can teach you the cool spells, the secret handshake, and the henna recipe, no? Well, I guess it might be someone sitting in the corner of an Orlanth temple, as opposed to a dedicated Vingan temple.. but that's what I meant: you walk up to that person, wherever they are, and declare your intention of becoming Vingan. That's where they would, ahem, "check the plumbing". And unless there's any divine restriction that strikes you down if you have anything resembling testicles, I would assume it's that person's subjective decision to accept or reject you.

Edited December 7, 2019 by lordabdul

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

Good question... but I mean, how do you actually become a Vingan?

Temporarily: Grab a weapon, dye your hair, and declare yourself at the Ernalda shrine/temple as on a sabbatical. Then join the warband.

By initiation? Trickier. As a femally plumbed child, your adulthood initiation was in all likelihood a private ceremony that had to do with your first bleeding. That means that you didn't quite get the Evil Uncles experience the other boys got. You may apply for cultic initiation into Orlanth, and might join the boys when they continue onward to their very private meeting with the Second Son. On your return, you'll be an initiate of Orlanth, and in all likelihood of Vinga as well.

There are no guidelines how a character lacking either sort of plumbing is initiated to adulthood.

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

I assume you have to go somewhere and talk to somebody about it, so they can teach you the cool spells, the secret handshake, and the henna recipe, no? Well, I guess it might be someone sitting in the corner of an Orlanth temple, as opposed to a dedicated Vingan temple.. but that's what I meant: you walk up to that person, wherever they are, and declare your intention of becoming Vingan.

I suppose that bearded uncle who presides over the Orlanth rites might be a target for persuasion by a tomboy, too. She probably will be already an adult (see above). Get some Storm magic, and then you can look out for other red-haired women and hope that one of them will have learned about the handshake and whom to ask for deeper mysteries. Possibly someone from outside of your clan.

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

That's where they would, ahem, "check the plumbing". And unless there's any divine restriction that strikes you down if you have anything resembling testicles, I would assume it's that person's subjective decision to accept or reject you.

Nothing wrong with having testicles if you have a womb to accompany them? Or not having a womb when you also lack testicles?

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I suppose that bearded uncle who presides over the Orlanth rites might be a target for persuasion by a tomboy, too. She probably will be already an adult (see above). Get some Storm magic, and then you can look out for other red-haired women and hope that one of them will have learned about the handshake and whom to ask for deeper mysteries. Possibly someone from outside of your clan.

Yeah, and my understanding is that once you've followed the red haired woman to some God Talker or Rune Priest, the following happens (as per S:KoH):

The priests conduct rites to determine his suitability and commitment, and summon otherworld entities to explore his hidden magic and secret thoughts. They test the applicant’s
knowledge of the pantheon and deity, his relationship to the temple, and his dedication to the deity.

It feels like there's a bit of wriggle room if necessary.

Edited December 7, 2019 by lordabdul

[Mirza]

I just assumed that when the pre-adult initiation vingan (gender) was in the woman's tent, she's taught the basics of womanhood but eventually things diverge and that instead of going through Ernaldic initiation, she finds herself pulled along the path of Vinga.

I don't see why a vingan would go through the Ernaldic initiation and then afterwards somehow apply for being a vingan, it should be something that naturally occurs during the adulthood initiation as things click into place and who she is becomes apparent.

From there the typical post-initiation cult trial phases occur, all vingans become at least lay-members of Vinga, with a majority of vingans who initiate becoming Vingans, but other vingans find themselves pulled along to other Orlanthi cults to initiate in (even potentially Ernalda initiation).

This sort of pattern is perfectly normal to the Orlanthi and occurs similarly for helerings, nandani, and agender people (humakti).

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, Mirza said:

I just assumed that when the pre-adult initiation vingan (gender) was in the woman's tent, she's taught the basics of womanhood but eventually things diverge and that instead of going through Ernaldic initiation, she finds herself pulled along the path of Vinga.

I don't see why a vingan would go through the Ernaldic initiation and then afterwards somehow apply for being a vingan, it should be something that naturally occurs during the adulthood initiation as things click into place and who she is becomes apparent.

Much like with other females who don't join Ernalda but some other deity (like Chalana Arroy or Lhankor Mhy or Issaries), the adulthood rites won't result in Ernalda initiation even if the rites are Ernaldan in nature, but the new adult will be in a limbo between adulthood initiation (can and will be taught spirit magic) and cultic initiation (access to Rune Magic). Male initiation with the goal of joining another cult than Orlanth will go through the Second Son rite but won't emerge as an initate of Orlanth. But then, many a future initiate of Orlanth may not receive the cultic initiation at his adulthood rite but might have to undergo another Orlanth rite to assert initiatehood.

In RQG terms, a character emerging from the adulthood rites with runes that don't support cult membership with Ernalda (yet) will be in the non-initiated adult group.

8 minutes ago, Mirza said:

From there the typical post-initiation cult trial phases occur, all vingans become at least lay-members of Vinga, with a majority of vingans who initiate becoming Vingans, but other vingans find themselves pulled along to other Orlanthi cults to initiate in (even potentially Ernalda initiation).

I don't see any problem with a vingan-gendered person still pursuing some Ernaldan speciality cult (e.g. as low entertainer, potter, weaver) as initiate. The Rattling Wind from the upcoming Pegasus Plateau has a (biologically) male Ernaldan NPC. Unmarried, possibly a-sexual or homo-sexual. (Although that may be over-interpreting the author's intentions, giving a number of slight Glorantha glitches in the alpha-release for the We All Are Us memorial scenario.)

 

8 minutes ago, Mirza said:

This sort of pattern is perfectly normal to the Orlanthi and occurs similarly for helerings, nandani, and agender people (humakti).

It happens to male and female gendered individuals, too.

Humakti usually aren't agender. The Wooden Sword's Naimless/the nameless Humakti is a mother (of an invisible child). Not fulfilling the social role of a mother, of course - that's what the bloodline is for, even after separation from the clan - but still the biological mother, and probably has female gender. If Naimless is vingan by gender (though not cult), she seems to prefer or at least accept biological males as sexual partners. Sexual orientation and gender identification can be separate things. Especially when orientation isn't binary.

Londra of Londros may be vingan by gender. She is described as biologically female, but might have asexual orientation.

Sexual orientation of the various genders comes with a certain load of expectations, but when it isn't exactly binary, the exceptions to the expectations aren't that remarkable.

[Mirza]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

the adulthood rites won't result in Ernalda initiation even if the rites are Ernaldan in nature, but the new adult will be in a limbo between adulthood initiation

I think that all new adults in Orlanthi society go through a period of limbo, first testing out the waters of their genders cult, followed by other non-gendered cults, and in fact many new adults never cult initiate at all, and remain lay-members of their cult for their entire lifespan. It's made clear in Sartar Kingdom of Heroes that awakening your Man's Breath or Woman's True Self isn't cult initiation, it's just adulthood initiation along the lines of your genders god. Initiation into a cult isn't automatic, it's a deliberate step of devotion to a single god above what the majority of people do.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Humakti usually aren't agender.

Are you not aware of what agender people are? Agender doesn't mean asexual, it means a person who doesn't feel any attachment to any particular gender or identify as being neutral in gender. Some agender people deliberately make themselves look more androgynous, while others might still retain some of their assigned birth sex and merely prefer pronouns such as they. This contrasts with other Non-Binary genders in that the vast majority of the rest of them identify, at least in part, with some gender identity. For instance genderfluid people identify with multiple genders, and feel that their identity shifts over time.

Anyway to bring this back to Glorantha, Humakt feels like the only god of the Orlanthi that has an agender identity. Humakt severed much to retain his purity, and gender seems like it's among them as it ties straight back to Orlanth as Man's God. So from the perspective of the Orlanthi the agender people are small-h humakti in that they have no gender much like how Humakt has no gender from his actions.

I fully think that Orlanthi pronouns are just a matter of them referring to the person's physical sex, not necessarily their gender identity.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It happens to male and female gendered individuals, too.

I'm well aware Joerg, but that's implicit in the discussion, and my post is specifically about non-cisgender people in Orlanthi society.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Mirza

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

In RQG terms, a character emerging from the adulthood rites with runes that don't support cult membership with Ernalda (yet) will be in the non-initiated adult group.

I thought that the adulthood rites were just about awakening your Runes and getting recognized as lay members of the main cult(s)? I imagine that most adults in a tribe are actually lay members of Orlanth or/and Ernalda. Everybody who is a young adult is probably not an initiate of anybody (so not Rune Magic) for a little while until they figure out what they want to do -- after all, they just had their Runes awakened and tattooed, so you gotta give them a bit of time to mull it over. I don't see how they could have decided on their cult before that anyway.

[g33k]

It's worth reiterating, I think, that "geting initiated into adulthood, as a member of the clan & tribe" is separate from becoming an Initiate of a Cult (Deity).

Its another of those instances of "overloading" a term -- same word, very different contexts.

I expect that SOME people initiate straight into a Cult during adulthood rites, but I expect that's more unusual (at least in Sartar).  I think that -- for example -- the Dara Happan nobility might just have young adults move straight into Yelm or Dendara.

Edited December 8, 2019 by g33k

[Eff]

Well, there's some overlap because Heortlings have a fairly homogeneous sense of what masculinity and femininity entail. "Everyone" is normally initiating to Orlanth/Vinga or Ernalda/Nandan because all the dimensions of masculine ideals are from Orlanth and all the dimensions of feminine ideals are from Ernalda, with Vinga and Nandan as extensions of those ideals. (This is one of the most entertaining aspects of Orlanthi- everyone is expected to be a worker and a fighter and a leader, all within the scope of a society which has substantial divisions of labor! No wonder they accept Trickster, Disorder is a chronic aspect of life.)

I would say that, and this is somewhere between IMO and IMG, the big defining cult of adulthood for Dara Happa is actually probably the city god/city goddess. Of course, these deities don't have the same kind of scope/Rune magic as Orlanth or Ernalda do, so specialized cults are the order of the day in accordance with your social class and social circumstances.