Vinga

[g33k]

31 minutes ago, Eff said:

... I would say that, and this is somewhere between IMO and IMG, the big defining cult of adulthood for Dara Happa is actually probably the city god/city goddess ... 

There's a bunch of countryside deities, too!

And I think those various deities (of city and country) form the majority of Dara Happan worship.  I expect these deities may be approached more like the laity do in Sartar, a bit more gently, with the newly-initiated-adults doing some exploration and experimentation, meditation, counseling with religious figures, etc etc etc.

And of course many never DO pursue Initiation!  Sartar's high proportion of Initiates (with Rune Magic) is part of what makes them unusual.

But the automatic "you're in this one" is the Dara Happan Imperial identity with Yelm the Emperor.  Boys, I expect, move straight into Yelm upon becoming men; girls into Dendara.

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by g33k
details, clarificaton

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

There's a bunch of countryside deities, too!

And I think those various deities (of city and country) form the majority of Dara Happan worship.  I expect these deities may be approached more like the laity do in Sartar, a bit more gently, with the newly-initiated-adults doing some exploration and experimentation, meditation, counseling with religious figures, etc etc etc.

And of course many never DO pursue Initiation!  Sartar's high proportion of Initiates (with Rune Magic) is part of what makes them unusual.

But the automatic "you're in this one" is the Dara Happan Imperial identity with Yelm the Emperor.  Boys, I expect, move straight into Yelm upon becoming men; girls into Dendara.

 

Well, I mentally classify countryside people as Lodrilli/Weeders and only the city folk are fully Dara Happans! I think this probably deserves a full topic in the Glorantha forum though, where I can expound on my theories of Dara Happan religious life, haha. 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I thought that the adulthood rites were just about awakening your Runes and getting recognized as lay members of the main cult(s)? I imagine that most adults in a tribe are actually lay members of Orlanth or/and Ernalda.

Yes, basically everybody not an initiate of Orlanth is a lay member or associate of Orlanth, and basically everybody not an initiate of Ernalda is a lay member or associate of Ernalda. That means your assessment is correct already per Thunder Rebels.

 

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Everybody who is a young adult is probably not an initiate of anybody (so not Rune Magic) for a little while until they figure out what they want to do -- after all, they just had their Runes awakened and tattooed, so you gotta give them a bit of time to mull it over. I don't see how they could have decided on their cult before that anyway.

The Prince of Sartar comic shows that there are initiees who emerge from their adulthood rites as initiates of Orlanth or Ernalda.

The initiation is a transformative experience and may very well make that "decision" for the magic they experienced in that rite.

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Mirza said:

think that all new adults in Orlanthi society go through a period of limbo, first testing out the waters of their genders cult, followed by other non-gendered cults, and in fact many new adults never cult initiate at all, and remain lay-members of their cult for their entire lifespan. It's made clear in Sartar Kingdom of Heroes that awakening your Man's Breath or Woman's True Self isn't cult initiation, it's just adulthood initiation along the lines of your genders god. Initiation into a cult isn't automatic, it's a deliberate step of devotion to a single god above what the majority of people do.

The majority of people initiate in Orlanthi society.

Have you seen the original articles that Sartar Kingdom of Heroes was based on?

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/cultures/ernaldan-initiation-rites/

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/cultures/orlanthi-initiation-rites/

These are key Gloranthan Documents by Greg.

I'd suggest that the divergence part is very varied and can happen at many points and that there is no "one size fits all". The places could be as diverse as

• first menstruation - the girl rejects being a woman and becomes other entering a different path (perhaps finds herself in the boys camp) (maybe can never have children)
• never has a first menstruation - takes the boys path. (Can never have children)
• the guiding during the Gods War guides her onto Vinga or someone else's path, but she never enters the Great Sleep. (maybe has children)
• after the two years, she initiates to Vinga (likely an event precipitates this)  (maybe has children)
• Changes cult after an event to Vinga. (maybe has children)

 

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes, basically everybody not an initiate of Orlanth is a lay member or associate of Orlanth, and basically everybody not an initiate of Ernalda is a lay member or associate of Ernalda. That means your assessment is correct already per Thunder Rebels.

 

The Prince of Sartar comic shows that there are initiees who emerge from their adulthood rites as initiates of Orlanth or Ernalda.

The initiation is a transformative experience and may very well make that "decision" for the magic they experienced in that rite.

They might also emerge from the adulthood rites dedicated to some other deity. Most emerge as initiates of Orlanth or Ernalda.

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

They might also emerge from the adulthood rites dedicated to some other deity. Most emerge as initiates of Orlanth or Ernalda.

What other deities conduct adulthood rites among the Orlanthi? Argan Argar, Yelmalio, possibly Heler for fringe Orlanthi. Is there any serious competition for Ernalda for the female Side? 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

What other deities conduct adulthood rites among the Orlanthi? Argan Argar, Yelmalio, possibly Heler for fringe Orlanthi. Is there any serious competition for Ernalda for the female Side? 

Serious competition? I don't think adulthood initiation is some kind of "cult marketplace" - rather people choose/are chosen by deities as part of the rites. Most Orlanthi are claimed by/choose Orlanth or Ernalda, but a few end up being dedicated to Maran Gor or Babeester Gor or Yelmalio or Storm Bull or Trickster or even by none (and thus follow paths like Daka Fal or even Horned Man).

[Joerg]

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Serious competition? I don't think adulthood initiation is some kind of "cult marketplace" - rather people choose/are chosen by deities as part of the rites. Most Orlanthi are claimed by/choose Orlanth or Ernalda, but a few end up being dedicated to Maran Gor or Babeester Gor or Yelmalio or Storm Bull or Trickster or even by none (and thus follow paths like Daka Fal or even Horned Man).

I guess I wasn't clear... My question is not about a race for attracting uninitiated children to participate in the cult's adulthood rites (there may be a spoof scenario in this idea, though little more), but about a community's adulthood rites using a different model than the Initiation of Orlanth for the boys and however the first blood rites of Ernalda are named.

Daka Fal is an option that I overlooked in Orlanthi society - Horned Man or Kolat would be a lot rarer. But would these rites instill the secrets of I Fought We Won? (There is nothing wrong with shamans or aspiring shamans being initiated to this secret - King Heort was a shaman himself.)

Taking the spirit option to adulthood would take a boy out of his age peer group waiting for the next occasion to undergo the Initiation of Orlanth and Second Son rites.

Theoretically, a child could also pop up at the temple of the deity calling it and do the three challenges to be heard by the chief priest for initiation, or something like that - exceptional children have their own ways into initiation, as the Household of Death history shows.

 

Thinking of Duke Raus and his extended family (never named or even mentioned in Borderlands, but as an ancestor worshiper, I suppose he keeps some distant cousins etc. around to get extra participants in his Daka Fal rites) would need a rite of passage. Now Kostaddi is under Dara Happan rule, so the male adulthood rites might very well be those of Yelm the Rider (or whatever the sedentary form is called), but if Yelm isn't that plebeian that Kostaddi folk are allowed to use his rites, then some Daka Fal tradition has to step in.

Does "chosen by the deity" already include initiation to the cult, or does it just mean that they are going to go to sunday school there for the next year to gather the necessary cult lore and customs to act as an initiate, whereupon they undergo the soul sacrifice that links them up to the deity?

[Lordabdul]

56 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Most Orlanthi are claimed by/choose Orlanth or Ernalda, but a few end up being dedicated to Maran Gor or Babeester Gor or Yelmalio or Storm Bull or Trickster or even by none (and thus follow paths like Daka Fal or even Horned Man).

So does that mean the boys or girls start their adulthood rite together, but, consciously or unconsciously, some of the kids end up in a different place on the God Plane, or start in a similar place as the other kids but somehow don't go into Orlanth's hall or whatever, and walk away to meet with some Babeester Gor or Storm Bull or any other deity's place/representative/etc.? In that case, if kids having an adulthood ritual together can actually end up having vastly different experiences, coming out as lay members/initiates of very different cults, then what's the point of boys and girls having different adulthood rites? The clan could run a ritual for all kids, regardless of gender, and they would all be sorted out, some going to Orlanth, others to Ernalda, and other to all the other places, according to their innate Runes and desires and such, no?

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

So does that mean the boys or girls start their adulthood rite together, but, consciously or unconsciously, some of the kids end up in a different place on the God Plane, or start in a similar place as the other kids but somehow don't go into Orlanth's hall or whatever, and walk away to meet with some Babeester Gor or Storm Bull or any other deity's place/representative/etc.? In that case, if kids having an adulthood ritual together can actually end up having vastly different experiences, coming out as lay members/initiates of very different cults, then what's the point of boys and girls having different adulthood rites? The clan could run a ritual for all kids, regardless of gender, and they would all be sorted out, some going to Orlanth, others to Ernalda, and other to all the other places, according to their innate Runes and desires and such, no?

A girl's body ready for procreation requires initiation into these secrets. At least among conscientious Orlanthi. Modern religious groups may hold opinions to the contrary. But then the Orlanthi are just barbarians...

Wet dreams are a lot less of an urgent matter, and if there are any manhood mysteries that aren't boasted about, what would those be?

[Lordabdul]

Oh, I always pictured adulthood rites as something that happens only, say, once every season or so. Like, "OK let's do the rituals for all the kids that became ready for it this past season". It sounds however like you're saying this is more of a "do it as soon as we see the necessary signs in the kid". A girl menstruating one night would mean that a whole bunch of women have to drop what they were supposed to do the next day, and spend that time initiating the girl into womanhood instead. That sounds pretty disruptive and less productive to me.

Edited December 8, 2019 by lordabdul

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

So does that mean the boys or girls start their adulthood rite together, but, consciously or unconsciously, some of the kids end up in a different place on the God Plane, or start in a similar place as the other kids but somehow don't go into Orlanth's hall or whatever, and walk away to meet with some Babeester Gor or Storm Bull or any other deity's place/representative/etc.? In that case, if kids having an adulthood ritual together can actually end up having vastly different experiences, coming out as lay members/initiates of very different cults, then what's the point of boys and girls having different adulthood rites? The clan could run a ritual for all kids, regardless of gender, and they would all be sorted out, some going to Orlanth, others to Ernalda, and other to all the other places, according to their innate Runes and desires and such, no?

No - girls are taken to one set of initiation rites headed by the Earth priestesses and wise women. Boys are taken are taken to a different ceremony on a different day at a different place, to one headed up by the Storm Voice and other Lightbtingers. The focus of each is different. Most boys end up initiated to Orlanth, but some take a different path - Storm Bull, Issaries, Eurmal, even Nandan.

Girls mostly end up initiated to Ernalda, but some take a different path - Issaries, Eurmal, Maran Gor, or even Vinga. Their path is different from the boys, even if they end up in the same place.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Oh, I always pictured adulthood rites as something that happens only, say, once every season or so. Like, "OK let's do the rituals for all the kids that became ready for it this past season". It sounds however like you're saying this is more of a "do it as soon as we see the necessary signs in the kid". A girl menstruating one night would mean that a whole bunch of women have to drop what they were supposed to do the next day, and spend that time initiating the girl into womanhood instead. That sounds pretty disruptive and less productive to me.

Once every three years or so.

[Lordabdul]

Thanks for the clarifications!

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Once every three years or so.

Oh wow that's... very infrequent. I would have gone for "once a year" at worst. I imagine there must be a whole bunch of kids getting really impatient -- I wonder if, in the mean time, they manage to convince adults to include them in various adult activities. Can kids be lay members of a cult?

[Jeff]

Just now, lordabdul said:

Thanks for the clarifications!

Oh wow that's... very infrequent. I would have gone for "once a year" at worst. I imagine there must be a whole bunch of kids getting really impatient -- I wonder if, in the mean time, they manage to convince adults to include them in various adult activities. Can kids be lay members of a cult?

Among the Orlanthi, kids are not permitted to participate in adult secrets. Not sex, not magic, not killing, etc. On the other hand, they learn to fight, to help the adults plow, harvest, craft, hunt, etc. You get some very frustrated 18-year olds, and some very happy 14 year olds.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

A girl menstruating one night would mean that a whole bunch of women have to drop what they were supposed to do the next day, and spend that time initiating the girl into womanhood instead. That sounds pretty disruptive and less productive to me.

I had a play with population pyramids years ago. Given a clan of 500, this is one way of plotting its population - you may disagree with some of my numbers but it's just a model for looking at ideas. Please bear in mind this ignores any war, so there are no "pinches". Feel free to make your own. If you are wondering what this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_pyramid

I think that given the number girls of beginning to menstruate at roughly 6 per year, they would be set up to manage this - roughly 1 per season. The small ritual lodges likely have their raw materials ready for use bundled by the loom house, ready to be used. Her community that visits her and stand watch are likely close adult female relatives and a priestess may be 4-5.  As with many ritual practices in the real world, participants are allowed to eat, sleep and do some limited work. I can imagine that while singing the songs that are needed, they would prepare food, feed babies, make things. The other reason that I don't think this disruptive is that this is part of everyones ongoing life, much the same as birth and death. The same could be said of the boys initiation - who has time to take a group of boys away. 

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

You get some very frustrated 18-year olds, and some very happy 14 year olds.

Thanks! Any reason it can't be a yearly occurrence?

Edited December 8, 2019 by lordabdul

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

What other deities conduct adulthood rites among the Orlanthi? Argan Argar, Yelmalio, possibly Heler for fringe Orlanthi. Is there any serious competition for Ernalda for the female Side? 

Depending on the region there's quite a bit of Heler; Helerings ("blue men") tend heavily to go Heler, and there are Helering lineages all over Kerofinela.

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Thanks! Any reason it can't be a yearly occurrence?

It takes a lot of resources, a lot of time, and a lot of commitment. Very few communities can afford financially and magically to do this on an annual basis. Its as big an event as the Sacred Time ceremonies.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Can you elaborate on "not permitted"?  How do you stop them?  Are there giant posters of Ernalda saying "just say no?"  🙂

This does bring up some interesting scenario ideas.

Most ceremonies have armed guards that prevent outsiders from watching - that's a big part of Humakt and Babeester Gor's role in the community.

Non-initiated children are children. Sex with not-adults is considered rape by most Orlanthi and taken very seriously. On the flip side, the Orlanthi don't place a particularly big value on sexual fidelity, what with Year Marriages, the Uleria cult, fertility rituals, polygamy and polyandry, etc. 

Greg had a story about frustrated the young men were after the Evil Year and Orlanthi initiations were stopped for 8 years after the Evil Year. You had men in their mid-twenties who were still legally and socially "children". Men ran away to the Storm Bull cult to be initiated (so they could have sex) or even committed crimes. A terrible time.

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Can you elaborate on "not permitted"?  How do you stop them?  Are there giant posters of Ernalda saying "just say no?"  🙂

This does bring up some interesting scenario ideas.

Usually, use of magic by minors (including indulging in sex or killing) attracts magical foes, often Chaos. Risking the growth of a tentacle or similarly gross things while traipsing through the first illicit sexual experience with another minor is a big turn down. Sex between an adult and a minor is considered rape. Even the Trickster will step carefully.

 

Working  magic on minors is a fairly normal occurrance (Heal Wounds, Cure DIsease), but there are magics that are considered taboo, at least on an individual basis (such as Fanaticism, stuff that causes wounds...).

Enslaving children might be a gray area. As may be treatment of enslaved minors. Morak in Biturian's Travels clearly is a minor up to his initiation as a Child of the Forest. Morak does fight, though... but then he bears the blessing of the Bull, and different rules might apply. Or the enslavement might be a different (unsavory) form of adulthood rite.

The Household of Death consisted of underage magical adults. These children somehow forced their initiation into the cult of Humakt without consent or sponsored ceremony by their parents.

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Joerg

[Lordabdul]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

The Household of Death consisted of underage magical adults. These children somehow forced their initiation into the cult of Humakt without consent or ceremony by their parents.

Interesting. Where is this from?

[Joerg]

Just now, lordabdul said:

Interesting. Where is this from?

Earlier or extended versions of the text that ended up as "Composite History of Dragon Pass" in King of Sartar.  Semi-published in an APA-Zine, IIRC. Also coming up in discussion in panels with Greg about the child prodigies in the Illaro Dynasty at Castle Stahleck.

The story reads like a mix of freeform roleplaying, or testing RQ, or another rpg (Arduin?), and a game of White Bear and Red Moon, written down like a protocol.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I remain dubious that sex between minors is non existent, or even rare.

A lot of cultures have phenomena that likely occur, but are sort of considered conceptually impossible by public/common discourse, or at least so remote from real life that they're virtually never discussed. It's not necessarily even that they are taboo - they're just too far removed from the usual things to consider by the majority. 

A prominent example is female same-sex attraction in many cultures. Lots of cultures have taboos against male same-sex relations and paint them as socially or religiously harmful, but completely and utterly overlook girls being attracted to each other. Even today you can find countries - most notably in the Middle East and Africa, I believe - where male same-sex relations are punishable by law, but female same-sex relations aren't even mentioned. The same applies to the age of consent: the age of consent might be expressed for heterosexual couples, male homosexual couples, but no word of female homosexual couples. This obviously do not mean that female same-sex couples or flings do not exist in these cultures, but rather that they are effectively made invisible due to majority/elite-held concepts. Patriarchy is a hellova drug

Another example I recall is on incest taboos. Among the Chewong of peninsular Malaysia, there is a lot of worry about socially ordering the space between fathers and daughters (eg. making sure they never sleep next to each other), as there is an overarching social fear of father-daughter incest. Mother-son incest, however, is not considered a concern, or if the monograph I read about them is correct, even considered absurd. 

Tl;dr: it's quite possible that the Orlanthi consider sexual relations between "children" (ie. any non-initiates) an absurd/socially impossible issue, so that they don't really worry or consider it. And if it happens, no one really talks about it, perhaps because "it's not real sex" or somesuch concern. 

Another thing to consider is that at least for rural Orlanthi, potential sexual partners are exogamous to the clan, and therefore in all likelihood to the settlement as well. It's a bit difficult to avoid social control and run off to another tula for some underage romance. (Which raises another point: that if non-initiate sexual relations occur, they're fairly likely to occur inside the clan. Which adds to the conceptual impossibility and/or taboo of it all.). Perhaps some things are just best overlooked by adults.

On the other hand, they might potentially transfer the responsibility of such an act from the non-initiate to their adult relatives. What exactly the offense would be is a bit less clear. Possibly bodily harm if that occurs between one or more very young participants. (This is getting a bit iffy, so I'll stop there.)

All of these are just ideas, though.


-------------------------

 

On another note, while female initiation rituals aren't as common as male ones, there is a great book written about a particular case. It's a bit superfluous for the Orlanthi, who already have their Ernaldan initiation ritual described by Greg, but for people reading this thread seeking inspiration for some stuff of their own, I heartily recommend "Chisungu: A Girl's Initiation Ceremony Among the Bemba of Zambia". It's a bit heavy on the psychoanalysis stuff (being mid-century American anthropology, that's quite common), but the detail and contextualization for the organized group initiation is very much on point. Also, from this link, the first 50-or so pages are free to preview.

https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/9781315002347

Edited December 8, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed