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Bill the barbarian

Spoilers ahead

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A wee tiny little spoiler ahead...

 

Last night and yesterday Joerg and I had a conversation/debate about spoilers that I thought was pretty damn good, triggered by a letter in another thread... not that we agreed, we did not, not that we came to a conclusion, we did not. We argued well, we listened and read and discoursed and well I think, we think,  it would be nice to bring it before all of you and let you join in and give your opinions. We will start with my opening to Joerg’s confused emoji to my request for spoilers... The exact circumstances of the spoiler or the participants are not as important as the debate we think.

edited for clarity, and spelling but definitely not for brevity... :)

 

  Quote 
  15 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

am I wrong?

 

   17 hours ago,  Joerg said: 
   16 hours ago,  Joerg said: 

I think you are a little bit over-protective in this case.

The ogre problem is a plot hook. Giving the bloodline's name in this context may make this available to googling, but then I am fairly certain that there is some bootleg pdf indexed by Google which already does give this as a search result.

And even if the surprise is spoilt for someone being faced with the mystery in actual gaming, a good roleplayer may take into account what his character can sensibly know about the setting and ignore the "Soylent Green is People" non-reveal.

A trickster player may try and blame the ogrishness on a major campaign annoyance unrelated to this problem. That Humakti former chief living in isolation is a potential candidate, for instance, or the never-do-wells who stirred up part of the feud.

 

I have yet to see the last season of Game of Thrones, I'll probably get it as a gift for X-mas or my birthday (10 days later). I know how it will end, but I am still looking forward to watching the end of that series.

Possibly even more looking forward to see GRRMartin's books covering that development, though.

 

   17 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 
   16 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 

Yes but a sad face, I can not say I am being overprotective, myself. I just think of is as courtesy...

 

   17 hours ago,  Joerg said: 
   16 hours ago,  Joerg said: 

Hiding content by spoilers doesn't make it invisible for the search engines.

 

Will the casual reader really dig into the thickness of these threads where grognards and "upstart know-it-alls like I used to be in the early RQ-Dailies” dice it out...

A discussion on the RuneQuest pages shouldn't affect the consumers of a HeroQuest scenario that much, either. True, people may work on a conversion. And there should be some place where they can talk about that conversion, even though the discussion may be all spoilers as they reveal the opponents of the scenario.

Discussing the range of Sakkars in Sartar may lead to a spoiler for the RQG Adventure Book. But dancing around the topic and never mentioning them in the same breath as the Varmandi clan? That's over-protective.

 

Courtesy is fine, but after a certain while after publication, spoilers can be discussed without hiding them.

 

   16 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 
   16 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 

!000% agreed,

if someone wishes to steal the entire library of Glorantha goodness on ‘net they can if they wish to defeat spoilers on the cheap... Put it in spoilers to protect those who care out of respect for the authors other customers and the players....

 

   16 hours ago,  Joerg said: 
   15 hours ago,  Joerg said: 

It is a form of courtesy and respect, but on a limited time-scale.

The customer usually is the narrator/GM of that group. The player is only the indirect customer.

The narrator or GM running published scenarios he has bought as written is a valuable resource that does earn respect. But expecting to run a published scenario unspoilered is pretty weird in my opinion.

But then, I regard published scenarios as a tutorial for a GM to be creative, and as a resource for certain scenes. I don't really run published scenarios as written. I adlib, and on occasion I use a stat block or a cool descriptive text rather than my own words.

 

   16 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 
   15 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 

Thant’s an odd comment. I guess expecting courtesy is pretty weird these days...

 

   16 hours ago,  Joerg said: 
   15 hours ago,  Joerg said: 

"I only read the scenarios for their Glorantha content"...

(replace scenarios for Playboy...)

Historically, scenario books are the "this is how Glorantha/RuneQuest works in application" tutorials where you learn about expected behavior (or what the authors thought would be expected behavior, especially when publishing authors slightly less or differently immersed in the background).

Discussing the Sacred Time economy rules without discussing the example of the Sheriff of Apple Lane is fairly obscure. This is of course a spoiler that PCs can reasonably have the chance to become that sheriff (otherwise, why bother with the economy calculations).

 

In many ways, The Coming Storm is a tutorial for players how to play Orlanthi characters. I suppose I would be delighted if my players would study that opus and took away enlightenment about Gloranthan behavior.

Many GMs have the problem that nothing but an elevator pitch will come across to the players.

A player who knows too much would be a welcome change...

 

   16 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 
   15 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 

an interesting take.

 

   16 hours ago,  Joerg said: 
   15 hours ago,  Joerg said: 

I don't wish myself to anyone as a player in a RQG game...

but I really appreciate when players get sufficiently involved with the setting that they start to research the background.

I have never played RQ with changing GMs - usually one GM (usually me) handled an entire campaign. Glorantha is the first fantasy world not mostly created by myself that I have run as a GM. (I did GM as an alternate GM in the WE Starwars setting that we used.)

 

   15 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 
   14 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 

Now you see why I like chatting with you, I do not have to agree with you , but I know you will raise interesting points. I am anti-censorship, info should flow freely etc... but I am not overly sure curtesy  hiding or even Spoiler in red helps censorship or that stops the free flow if information, but you always bring the guns to a knife fight. Well said.

 

   14 hours ago,  Joerg said: 
   14 hours ago,  Joerg said: 

Guns to a knife fight?

I may have overstated the "Freedom of Speech" element in "I am too lazy to spoiler-tag everything, or adding a disclaimer, or just phrase it obliquely", in part due to past experiences.

Hiding a telling point of an argumentation from visibility strikes me as a bad tactic.

Hiding a not-so-secret ("The God Learners could change the myths!") in spoilers might make me grumpy.

"Harrek is going to face Jar-eel on the battlefield!"

This is going to be a major event in the Argrath campaign. Do we need to spoiler it? Or the outcome that made her heartless and him short a foot?

As I said, I am too lazy to try and hide what is readily available data. The availability of Glorantha material has become quite good, only the fragments of Greg's attempts at novels, his APAzine contributions and his body of map overlays need to be published. (Nothing the Tolkien estate didn't do...)

I collected my Index to Glorantha when there wasn't any digital material at all. Making sources available was part of my drive in that lost project... which is why I am less concerned with hiding stuff.

 

   14 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 
   14 hours ago,  Bill the barbarian said: 

Kay but instead of straw men moving of goalposts etc... what about that question

Red Cow Gots Ogres...

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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And here I thought the adstringent and bleach had done its job... and I tried so much not to spam this thread. But no, the barbarian won't let go.

 

To get back on topic:

Red Cow got an ogre problem. Poor clan, to be targeted by such monsters again and again - when and how did they earn that special enmity?

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Sorry about that chief...

And how do you feel about spoilers, yay or nay,

  1. I have not got the time to hide my thoughts, enough time has past, I paid good money when I bought this and I wish to talk about it and besides that is censorship
  2. Please I have spent my good cash, I want to surprise my players. If you do not hide spoilers then at  least type  the word spoiler hit return a few times and than start your post...

 

So, where do you stand?

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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As this is a new thread, just about Spoilers, we can post whatever we want, can't we?

In my opinion, Spoilers should definitely be used for fairly new material, especially when Scenarios are concerned.

What is difficult for us oldies is where someone who has just bought the RQ Classic material to run for their new gaming group of Gloranthan Newbies, and expects Spoilers around things from Scenarios that have been discussed for nearly 40 years. I can't put Spoilers around every single thing from every single Scenario, or from every bit of information gleaned from nearly 40 years of Gloranthan usage.

So, Bill, I feel your pain, I really do. But, for some of us, some things are ages old.

I'ts like putting a Spoiler around "Luke, I am your father".

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

As this is a new thread, just about Spoilers, we can post whatever we want, can't we?

 

we have a warning at the top about spoilers, it is called spoilers ahead, I would assume anything goes... but your mileage may vary. see the post above....

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, Bill, I feel your pain, I really do. But, for some of us, some things are ages old.

 

This was not put up to make everyone agree with me, I think that Joerg has solid points and I love the way he argues... always respectful. Thank you for you sympathy (but save it I  will win bwhahaahahahah), and say let the tables decide!

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I think it's a question of how many people -- what percentage, roughly -- will be "harmed" (for a loose value of "harm") by the lack of spoilers.

As the Good Master Storm Spear has pointed out... there's a substantial influx of newbies, to whom all this stuff is ... well, new.  Some level of consideration for them seems apt!  Of course, some of them are GM's, who are "immune" to spoilers... GM's, after all, are made of spoiler.

So... how many people?  Gee... I dunno.

I don't really have any answers for you, Bill.  Only an admission that the issue is... not complicated, exactly... let's call it nuanced.

 

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6 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Dude! Not cool! 🤛😾🤜

 

No worries, man.  I think the claim is bogus.  D'you have ANY notion how many geeks had the hots for Padme Amidala??!?

They'd ALL make that claim, if you gave 'em half a chance...

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13 hours ago, g33k said:

No worries, man.  I think the claim is bogus.  D'you have ANY notion how many geeks had the hots for Padme Amidala??!?

They'd ALL make that claim, if you gave 'em half a chance...

Darths and Droids has "I am your mother, Luke!"

Works just as well.

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On 12/7/2019 at 5:14 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

And how do you feel about spoilers, yay or nay,

Speaking as the young pup in the pack, comparatively, I'm still broadly in agreement with soltakss on spoilers. There seems to be an ambiguous "statute of limitations" on this sort of thing, and IMO that's been long past for most RQ Classic material, and for the broad strokes of the Hero Wars to come. Newer material, it makes sense to be a little hush-hush when discussing a key plot twist, but thus far I haven't seen anything (in RQG anyway) so substantial as to require spoiler warnings. After all, the "Dragon of Thunder Hills" is on the GM Screen Pack cover!

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42 minutes ago, Crel said:

Speaking as the young pup in the pack, comparatively ...

So let's put you to the question, then (since you're so bold as to step forward and don the target!) -- do you anticipate being a player in some/all of this RQClassic content, or most likely the GM?  Because players v. GM's may have differing opinions...  😉

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42 minutes ago, g33k said:

So let's put you to the question, then (since you're so bold as to step forward and don the target!) -- do you anticipate being a player in some/all of this RQClassic content, or most likely the GM?  Because players v. GM's may have differing opinions...  😉

That's fair :P.

I'm currently the gamemaster for our group, although we've started to trade off the role a bit to give me a fighting chance at keeping up on writing/prepping/converting material. I was originally a player, and wandered off to start delving further into Glorantha lore (from our Glorantha-lite game) during that time. Likewise, one of my current players has picked up the lore bug (which is in part what began driving him toward trying out GMing), and consequently began delving himself into whatever he could get his hands on.

It seems to me that folks who go far enough to get on this forum (like my friend and I) aren't too worried about spoilers—we want information. We've got a few decades to catch up on, after all!

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Allow me to say that, in today's media landscape, the only reliable protection against spoilers that I count on is my own critical ability to stop paying attention when I realise someone is discussing something that I want to maintain as a surprise.  Honestly, I'm generally cognisant enough to work out on my own when spoilers are looming, and not so delicate that I need to be shielded against my own curiosity.  That's a responsibility I've learned to take on myself.

Furthermore, as a player in RPG campaigns who's more often than not a GM as well, I know from experience that actual play in any given scenario unfolds organically and unpredictably, even when I know what's been scripted.  This is an improvisational hobby, after all.

!i!

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Thanks all for weighting in and I apologize for my absence (great stuff without me anyway and I am here in the first post after all.) . Head colds may be thought of as Malia’s way of saying sit down and stop thinking for a while.. I want to comment but it hurts too much so I will just say 

Cheers

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Thanks for everyone's patience (torpor?), I think I can muster enough brains to ask a question... sniffle

On 12/7/2019 at 3:54 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

A wee tiny little spoiler ahead...

Kay but instead of straw men moving of goalposts etc... what about that question

Red Cow Gots Ogres...

On 12/7/2019 at 4:08 AM, Joerg said:

To get back on topic:

Red Cow got an ogre problem. Poor clan, to be targeted by such monsters again and again - when and how did they earn that special enmity?

 

Time to bring that one nagging question forward from the Original Wall o’ Text™

 Plot hooks versus actual spoilers—
I would assume most here would differentiate between the two and let revealed plot hooks slide well before letting a major plot's secret slide. So then,  what is the goalpost, how do you decide what passes and what does not?

I’ll start so there is no need to stand on ceremony. Me, I hate the unnecessary use of either without the small curtesy of a spoiler warning of some kind, damn intolerant barbarian that I am. Mind you I am having a hard time envisioning a time when it wold be necessary to not use a spoiler warning of some kind before revealing a plot hook or story's secret

If I had to choose I would have to say plot hooks well before plot secrets but as I would rather not reveal either without warnings to begin with, I would have a hard time setting a gauge to that, sorry.

Cheers

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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16 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Thanks for everyone's patience (torpor?), I think I can muster enough brains to ask a question... sniffle

I thought barbarians weren't dependent on that grey goo stuff inside their skulls?

 

16 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Time to bring that one nagging question forward from the Original Wall o’ Text™

 Plot hooks versus actual spoilers—
I would assume most here would differentiate between the two and let revealed plot hooks slide well before letting a major plot's secret slide. So then,  what is the goalpost, how do you decide what passes and what does not? Me, I hate the unnecessary use of either without the small curtesy of a spoiler warning of some kind, damn intolerant barbarian that I am. Mind you I am having a hard time envisioning a time when it wold be necessary to not use a spoiler warning of some kind before revealing a plot hook or story's secret

Cheers

What is a secret, what is a long publicized former secret?

Griffin Mountain is where the Wind Sword is hidden, and Balastor's Barracks may yield the axe of that champion of Pavis. Oh, and Baroshi may be found in the depths of Snake Pipe Hollow. Listing these here doesn't really make those scenarios invalid or unplayable.

If you are discussing ogres hiding in human society and give examples, every such example will of course make that hidden group public. You cannot discuss these critters with examples without uncovering some secret. The topic is a spoiler all in itself. Yes, there are ogres in Glorantha, and that's how they work!

Likewise we cannot discuss the Black Fang without spoiling them as something that has to be experienced before it can be researched.

A certain Light Lord in Sun County is an illuminate? The son of a Citadel King in Balazar has been seen? Garrath Sharpsword is a descendant of Sartar? There is a giant baby on the Cradle? Pinchining is a Gold Wheel Dancer?

All of this has been mentioned hundreds of times.

 

I think I have found a way to warn of potential spoilers without having to do anything soon again... Can you spot it?

 

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On 12/12/2019 at 10:01 AM, Joerg said:

I thought barbarians weren't dependent on that grey goo stuff inside their skulls?

Oh, get a grip, what do you think keeps our ears (or horns, check out that pretty avatar to the left) apart, hmm?

On 12/12/2019 at 10:01 AM, Joerg said:

I think I have found a way to warn of potential spoilers without having to do anything soon again... Can you spot it?

 

Still pretty foggy (two weeks of a cold, zounds), I am afraid that I am missing it,

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Given that HQ:G is the current version available for the HW/HQ line, and CS/11L is the most recent release... I can see an argument in favor of spoilers there; probably less so for S:KoH, P:GTA, etc.  But even though CS/11L really isn't "new" it's probably the most-likely HQG content to "spoil" a newbie-experience.

Once the new edition and new Glorantha genre-pack is out -- and a campaign -- then it probably makes less sense to spoiler-tag CS/11L.

I'm ambivalent about spoilers on the RQClassic content.  Yes, it's all several decades old... And yet, it's only recently become re-available, with much of the spoilers buried on old ML archives &c...  For the Glorantha newbies, it's likely to be UTTLERLY FULL of spoilerbait, and new discussions likely to unearth secrets better left buried...

But on the other hand, places like BRPC are just full of grognards who love delving freely into the lore and deconstructing it and analyzing it... And those wants are worth taking into account, too!

 

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9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Oh, get a grip, what do you think keeps our ears (or horns, check out that pretty avatar to the left) apart, hmm?

Earwax.

 

 

All the way through.

 

You can spot the Chaos when the earwax starts to form horns.

 

Heeeeyy... waitaminnit there, "Bill..."

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Saw this on RPG.NET and thought I would post it here. Now this is closer to my point of view although my punishment would have been a little bloodier.

Quote

In approximately a month, the new Star War will be in theaters. We will be applying the same spoiler policy for this film that we have for major fandom event movies in the past: That is, if you spoil it at all, anywhere outside a specifically designated spoiler thread, even a HINT, we will ban you for a super long time. A more extensive and witty notice will be posted by staff who have had coffee in the Other Media forum.

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian

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