The Alone Confederation

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Thanks @Jeff ! The maps are super useful. A few comments/questions:

• So it looks like we're indeed back to the Amad and Bachad tribes having settled the Solfint valley since the mid-1580s. That's fine... I'll have to figure out if I want to keep my Glorantha varying or not

You can have your cake and eat it: while the tribes existed in that place, dissident clans may have been displaced from the Alda-chur region and forced to take refuge in the Alone confederation.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• I'm surprised that the Tres is retroactively being made into an original tribe though.

Where exactly did the information that they weren't originate?

As far as my short research found out, Sartar Rising: Barbarian Adventures created this information. It was the first official product presenting such information on the tribes of Sartar, and its presentation was met with some disbelieve and criticism.

Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder basically copy-pasted that previous publication, embellishing it here and there, and adding local detail. DP:LoT is one of several fan-sourced publications from the HW/HQ1 era. While this was a very nice acknowledgement of the Glorantha tribe which had kept the interaction with the setting alive, this publicized detail information where Greg Stafford had already created such detail info earlier, but due to the (temporary) loss of the master maps to this scale and their gazetteers, Issaries Inc needed to put out something, and this crowd-sourcing was an invitation for fans to let stuff from their campaign settings flow into published canon.

I cannot say for sure, but I suspect that the information in Barbarian Adventures had to be created out of whole cloth as the previously made concise documents were AWOL The designers decided to up the ante, to set up the "rebels" vs "enslaved tribes" polarisation in that publication to illustrate the consequences of the occupation.

I think they overshot that target...

With Composite History of Dragon Pass their main document, the authors somehow cobbled together their list of tribes, and as Harvar's recent victory over the Righteous Wind was a lot more immediate than Terasarin's obligation to some Tarsh Exile refugees, the BA version saw print.

 

TL,DR: The special composition and origin of the Tres may have been the product of losing Greg's detail info on Sartar.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• I assume the lack of little red dots demonstrates how poor the local clans are, and how wild the area is... so probably just a collection of farm steads of varying sizes? I would still imagine at least a village for the clan centres. If things like Highwall Inn and Erenia's Inn are registered on the map, surely we're missing a few more dots?

One thing that Barbarian Adventures and Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder did quite well was their section on "inns in Sartar". An inn usually is a hamlet's meeting hall, with the proprietor something like a thane in charge of dealing with assemblies, and with travelers seeking hospitality.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• It's fairly uncommon that the Tres and Bachad don't have their own tribal centre, and instead share Alone for that, no? (as opposed to the Amad who supposedly are the poorest, but they still have Amadhall)

I would suggest that they have tribal moot places away from settlements, on sacred hills or similar. Their tribal kings may have been on the itinerary between the clans, or even the clans' thanes, and have their administrative building in the city. Unlike with the Quivini tribes, that city was available basically from the time of creation of those new tribes. Tribal villages were built around the same time as the city was built.

The Amad were more exposed to hostile interaction with the trolls than the other two tribes, so making a tribal stronghold may have had a higher priority for them than for the Bachad and Tres.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• Are the population numbers written as of 1625?

I suspect in the maps analyzed by Jeff they were written as of 1621 or even 1613, if they are based on those master maps. Those numbers are now being taken kicking and screaming to the onset of the current timeline.

From my experience working with Jeff, he is more likely to make an educated guess on such numbers than to start a spreadsheet calculating filters like losses from the Windstop, and recovery efforts, and return of folk from exile, to calculate these new numbers.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• Are the other numbers (under the population numbers) the number of clans in each tribe? If so, it looks like the Amad and Bachad have been downgraded since Wyrms Footnotes 15 (Amad: 2 down to 1, and Bachad: 4 down to 2)

I have some old notes that had 500 inhabitants per hex, each hex one clan, and exact hex outlines for each tribe (matching the White Bear and Red Moon map). I think that this kind of info led into the Sartar campaign, and into the creation of this finer scale map.

WF15 is set prior to the Windstop, IIRC. People may have perished, may have ended up as slaves, or may have fled out of the Windstop area.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

• Storlock appears on the west bank of the whatever river that is there... that would place it in Bachad lands. Is this a mistake? (IIRC it's supposed to be a joint Torkani/troll trading outpost)

The Torkani occupied that place before the arrival of the Bachad, and the Bachad may have acknowledged that prior claim of the Torkani.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

You can have your cake and eat it: while the tribes existed in that place, dissident clans may have been displaced from the Alda-chur region and forced to take refuge in the Alone confederation.

Yep that's what I'm thinking -- and maybe even simpler than that. Narratively speaking, I just want a decent "blank slate" starting point for the PCs, especially since none of my players know anything about Glorantha (which is why I'm picking an isolated area to start..., but with many options available in all cardinal directions to grow, discover the world, and get involved in THINGS). I could save myself from the burden of clan migration logistics by having them just be a family/bloodline fleeing Alda-Chur and recently adopted into one of the Bachad clans. Since those clans are in complete disarray in 1611 after the sack of Alone, and probably in serious need of new thanes/healers/etc., it shouldn't be hard to be adopted. And that will still provide some good opportunities to introduce/build things up... like, say, introducing players to the concept of a wyter by having them recover/repair it after Harvar's people potentially destroyed or stole it.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

TL,DR: The special composition and origin of the Tres may have been the product of losing Greg's detail info on Sartar.

I trust your knowledge of Gloranthan publication history    It's just that the narrative about the Tres being a new tribe spanned a good 10+ years, including the 2012 issue of Wyrms Footnotes 15 which has a dedicated chapter on the Far Place, and a detailed map of the area in the style of the Argan Argrar Atlas, so I figured the authors might have made up their mind by then.

(not a criticism, though... just surprised... doesn't matter too much for my campaign)

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

One thing that Barbarian Adventures and Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder did quite well was their section on "inns in Sartar".

I'll check it out, thanks.

Edited December 13, 2019 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

On 12/13/2019 at 3:45 AM, Jeff said:

And here are the tribes:

Hey Jeff, happy new year   A couple questions probably fell of your busy radar:

• Do you have info on the number of clans in each tribe?
• Are the big numbers on your map here the population numbers, and if so, is there any reason they're quite lower than the numbers in S:KoH?

Thanks

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Hey Jeff, happy new year   A couple questions probably fell of your busy radar:

• Do you have info on the number of clans in each tribe?
• Are the big numbers on your map here the population numbers, and if so, is there any reason they're quite lower than the numbers in S:KoH?

Thanks

The older population numbers I have seen had 500 people per clan and Dragon Pass boardgame hex. Just superimpose the tribal map to the hexmap in the Guide and count the hexes.

There should be no tribe with less than three clans. Clans shouldn't be much smaller than 450. The upper limit for clan size would be in the neighborhood of a thousand - more and too many voices are ignored.

A clan with slaves could deduct the number of slaves from the critical maximum size.

There was a year-long winter with famine and roaming Chaos in between. And S:KoH was written without access to the Master Maps of Dragon Pass.

[Lordabdul]

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The older population numbers I have seen had 500 people per clan and Dragon Pass boardgame hex. Just superimpose the tribal map to the hexmap in the Guide and count the hexes.

Ah interesting, thanks. It's hard to tell... maybe 5 for Amad, 6 for Bachad, 9 for Tres? That would be 2500, 3000, and 4500 respectively.

Jeff's map and copy/paste of info contradict each other for the Amad (I assume it's merely a typo), one putting them at 2000, the other at 3000... either way that fits. Bachad are at 3000 so that seems to line up too. The Tres are listed at 2500, however, so they seem to have a very low population density, and/or were particularly badly hit by Harvar's troops, the Great Winter, etc.

24 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There should be no tribe with less than three clans.

Interesting... Wyrm Footnotes #15 had put the Amad at 2 clans, and I was wondering if that was viable. Did you get this info from somewhere, or is that just common sense?

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Clans shouldn't be much smaller than 450. The upper limit for clan size would be in the neighborhood of a thousand - more and too many voices are ignored.

S:KoH says a clan would be between 500 and 2000, but in RQG material the Anmangarn and Varmandi indeed go down to 450. On the upper side, the Arnoring have 1400 people, and the Ernaldori have 1600, with a few others around the 1200 mark.

I think it would make sense to have the Amad split in 3 clans, the Bachad in 3 or 4 clans (Highwall Inn establishes the fact that one of the original Bachad clans was wiped out by Redstone Cavern trolls by the way). Living in small valleys, these tribes would tend to gather in smaller clans (800 people or less) rather than bigger ones. The Tres seem to have more open terrain, which could sustain bigger clans, but they also have a more fractured origin (if we adhere to the story that they formed from unaffiliated groups of Tarsh refugees), so they might also have a bias towards many smaller clans. So maybe 4 or 5 clans for the Tres in 1610, possibly dramatically down to 3 or 4 by 1625.

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There was a year-long winter with famine and roaming Chaos in between.

Right, good point. For some reason I thought S:KoH was post-Windstop but it looks like it's mostly set in 1613.

37 minutes ago, Joerg said:

And S:KoH was written without access to the Master Maps of Dragon Pass.

Huh, I think I've heard this before but had forgotten. What's the story there? Were the maps held by Avalon Hill or something?

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Jeff's map and copy/paste of info contradict each other for the Amad (I assume it's merely a typo), one putting them at 2000, the other at 3000... either way that fits. Bachad are at 3000 so that seems to line up too. The Tres are listed at 2500, however, so they seem to have a very low population density, and/or were particularly badly hit by Harvar's troops, the Great Winter, etc.

I have no closer stakes in this region, really. If the Tres have mainly small splinter clans, these clans may have staked out enough land for a major clan each, which would explain the much lower population density. But then, they seem to sit between Amad and Tovtaros, so I don't think they had that much open land to claim.

 

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Interesting... Wyrm Footnotes #15 had put the Amad at 2 clans, and I was wondering if that was viable. Did you get this info from somewhere, or is that just common sense?

My version of common sense, at least. Three clan tribes aka triaties can be sub-entities of other tribes, like the Runegate triaty which now forms a subtribe of the Colymar, or the Tree Brothers triaty among the Malani. With just two clans, the clan who  has the king has a subject clan. This isn't balanced or stable. With two non-royal clans, there is a balance.

 

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

S:KoH says a clan would be between 500 and 2000, but in RQG material the Anmangarn and Varmandi indeed go down to 450. On the upper side, the Arnoring have 1400 people, and the Ernaldori have 1600, with a few others around the 1200 mark.

The Ernaldori are an urban clan, which might change the rules somewhat, and part of their number might be the tribal earth temple, an almost independent polity.

 

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Huh, I think I've heard this before but had forgotten. What's the story there? Were the maps held by Avalon Hill or something?

No idea. Jeff turned up at Kraken this year with reproductions of those re-appeared originals and showed them off.

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

But then, they seem to sit between Amad and Tovtaros, so I don't think they had that much open land to claim.

By "open" I meant "less obstructed by terrain". The Tres live (partially/mostly) in the Sheep of Luck Hills, whereas the Bachad live not only at the bottom of the Indigo Mountains, they also are centered around a thing called "Hidden Valley", which tells me there's a bunch of much steeper hills there that would keep groups of people more separate in hard-to-get-to areas.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

My version of common sense, at least.

Yeah it makes sense. WF15 didn't seem very plausible on that specific matter (and it had a few obvious typos in other areas, which makes me take it with an increasing amount of salt).

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Ernaldori are an urban clan, which might change the rules somewhat, and part of their number might be the tribal earth temple, an almost independent polity.

Good point -- I hadn't realized that 80% of the clan actually lives in Clearwine and works the lands immediately around it. Interesting.

In other news, I'm working on some maps and I'm facing a problem with the map Jeff posted in this topic, in that the scale seems wrong. It puts for instance the Contemplative Rest Dragonewt city at 13.5km from Alone. The Guide and AAA maps have 5 miles-wide hexes, so the distance between the 2 should be about 13 miles. Is there a kilometer/mile mix-up somewhere?

Another weird thing is that Alone is more than 6km away from the Solfint river. I understand that it's a seasonal river that's prone to flooding, but that feels like too big a distance for that (and impractical for daily life? a seasonal river is still useful most of the time). Besides, my understanding is that people would have typically looked for a hill to build a settlement anyway, so Alone should probably be built at a spot where it's high enough above the river and surrounding lands to be practical and defensible, shouldn't it? IIRC there's some story about the original WB&RM hex-based maps not being able to support a city on a river, because they had to be on 2 adjacent hexes. Maybe this is a consequence of that?

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

By "open" I meant "less obstructed by terrain". The Tres live (partially/mostly) in the Sheep of Luck Hills, whereas the Bachad live not only at the bottom of the Indigo Mountains, they also are centered around a thing called "Hidden Valley", which tells me there's a bunch of much steeper hills there that would keep groups of people more separate in hard-to-get-to areas.

Yeah it makes sense. WF15 didn't seem very plausible on that specific matter (and it had a few obvious typos in other areas, which makes me take it with an increasing amount of salt).

Good point -- I hadn't realized that 80% of the clan actually lives in Clearwine and works the lands immediately around it. Interesting.

In other news, I'm working on some maps and I'm facing a problem with the map Jeff posted in this topic, in that the scale seems wrong. It puts for instance the Contemplative Rest Dragonewt city at 13.5km from Alone. The Guide and AAA maps have 5 miles-wide hexes, so the distance between the 2 should be about 13 miles. Is there a kilometer/mile mix-up somewhere?

Another weird thing is that Alone is more than 6km away from the Solfint river. I understand that it's a seasonal river that's prone to flooding, but that feels like too big a distance for that (and impractical for daily life? a seasonal river is still useful most of the time). Besides, my understanding is that people would have typically looked for a hill to build a settlement anyway, so Alone should probably be built at a spot where it's high enough above the river and surrounding lands to be practical and defensible, shouldn't it? IIRC there's some story about the original WB&RM hex-based maps not being able to support a city on a river, because they had to be on 2 adjacent hexes. Maybe this is a consequence of that?

Joerg often pronounces things as "established fact" when they are naught but his supposition. There's lots of variety in tribal make-up, and stability is not always the main goal.

The scale on my recent map is correct. It is part of the project of directly working off Greg's Master Map, at exactly the same scale and which is the fulcrum of all Gloranthan maps. Things often got moved around a few kilometres here and there to fit on the Guide maps. Just like if you look at many atlases, they place the dot for cities not "exactly" in the right place, depending on the scale of the map. 

And Alone is not next to the Solfint. There are, of course, numerous marginal streams and creeks not on the map. Alone was placed where it was because of divinations, agreements with dragonewts, and other factors,

[Lordabdul]

Ah great, thanks for the info! The bit about “agreements with dragonewts” is....interesting....

Edited January 3, 2020 by lordabdul

[Darius West]

For a supposed hinterland and backwater, Alone will be strangely cosmopolitan, and a little like New Pavis in that respect.  While not a large city, both the Kingdom of Sartar and the Lunar Empire will have a vested interest in a strong garrison in Alone, as it borders the lands of trolls, dragonewts, dark elves, potentially Praxians,  and the mixed loyalties of Tarshite exiles.  It is worth pointing out that Griselda has familial ties to Alone as well, and we know that means Lanbril is active.

The fact that there is a strong Tarshite presence is very interesting, given the ultimate revolt of the Tarsh exiles against both Sartar and the Lunar Empire.  It is also interesting as this would mean that religiously, there may be an extended loyalty by the people of Alone to the Shaker Temple, indicating a more balanced fertile vs dark earth balance within the tribes.  Ex-patriot communities tend to hang on to old attitudes, accents, and practices far longer than those in the lands they left.  I would imagine that this would translate into strangely out of place architecture, as the "flat land" style houses of Old Tarsh get transposed into the hills of North East Sartar.  I imagine there are plenty of old unsettled grudges, secrets, and hidden bloodlines in Alone, all hiding behind the veil of the language barrier between Sartarites and the Tarshite speakers of Alone.

There is also the issue of rampaging giants detouring south.

All this action in a city of introverts...

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

The fact that there is a strong Tarshite presence is very interesting, given the ultimate revolt of the Tarsh exiles against both Sartar and the Lunar Empire.  It is also interesting as this would mean that religiously, there may be an extended loyalty by the people of Alone to the Shaker Temple,

I had forgotten about that (the text in red) good call! Interesting times indeed,

An old skool representation of a Undertribe village, note the sharpened trees sticking out of houses to deter stomping giants.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Joerg often pronounces things as "established fact" when they are naught but his supposition.

As a rule, I state my impressions. When I state something as established fact, I give sources, exposing them to being tested for canonicity.

I altered my status line to drive that home. "I don't speak canon."

 

Quote

There's lots of variety in tribal make-up, and stability is not always the main goal.

So what is the purpose of having a tribe, then?

I do get the impression that forming a tribal wyter is done with stability and unity as the goal. The stability of cooperation between the clans involved, and turning over significant amounts of the clans' capital (cattle, land) to the tribal temple to administer (even when in practice both land and cattle remain under the clan's care.

There is nothing to stop two clans to form any form of military, political and/or economic alliance in ways other than a tribe.

 

Quote

And Alone is not next to the Solfint.

That depends on your scale, too...

Other than the docks of Duck Point (which may or may not be in direct contact with the city), none of the cities in Sartar is in direct contact with a navigable waterway. Boat traffic up the Stream could reach a place near Wilmskirk, but there are (likely) rapids (i.e. portages) on the way, which may make the road from Duck Point the less laborious means of transport.

 

Quote

There are, of course, numerous marginal streams and creeks not on the map. Alone was placed where it was because of divinations, agreements with dragonewts, and other factors,

I wonder how much divinations confirm common sense decisions (like building on a spot that doesn't get flooded regularly when the snow melts) and how much they override such considerations.

The Sartar dynasty has a gift for urban planning and development. (It might be the wyter, the Flame of Sartar holding the apotheosized founder, guiding the builders).

The city walls of all cities have been planted with area to spare inside. There is no known case of a city of Sartar spilling outside of its walls.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Joerg

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

For a supposed hinterland and backwater, Alone will be strangely cosmopolitan, and a little like New Pavis in that respect. 

I'm not sure... maybe? I was working yesterday on getting a vague idea of the population in Alone. With a population of ~1000 (probably quite a bit more before 1611 when Harvar laid waste to it), and with somewhat small, isolationist tribes around it, you can't really "fill" it with too many sedentary locals (and I don't think there would be an urban clan there since this is a tribal capital?), but it's also a bit difficult to find anybody else to live or stay there.

There's probably some temporary locals (coming to the permanent market, to deal with the local crafters, to visit the temples, etc.). Also some Lunar/Yelmalite barrack that's less than half full (except for special occasions), with mean, drunk soldiers who consider their post here a punishment (it many cases it might be). There might also be a few occasional travelers (like Joh Mith) who are on their way to the troll lands, visiting the Dragonewts, or some other obscure goal (who would want to go the Stinking Forest?), but that can't be more than a dozen people at any one point... and anybody passing by to visibly visit the trolls might get the stink eye, as local people don't like them (the Torkani are the only troll-friendly people around, but they're not part of the Alone confederation... they might still have to visit Alone every now and then for some reason though).

So really I don't know if it will be very cosmopolitan... Alone isn't anywhere near the road between Prax and Alda-Chur -- you have to go to the other side of the Woods of the Dead (something not many people want to do), so it doesn't get any "foot traffic". Alone is a dead-end: if you don't have any business there specifically, you wouldn't go there. You're better off going to Alda-Chur (it will probably take you a similar time), unless you have reason to avoid that place (there are many... Alone is therefore a good springboard for Sartarite rebels to go lay low in the mountains).

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

The fact that there is a strong Tarshite presence is very interesting, given the ultimate revolt of the Tarsh exiles against both Sartar and the Lunar Empire.

What's that revolt against Sartar? I don't think I've come across texts mentioning that.

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is also interesting as this would mean that religiously, there may be an extended loyalty by the people of Alone to the Shaker Temple, indicating a more balanced fertile vs dark earth balance within the tribes.

Yep, compared to their Sartarite neighbours, I think the Far Place tribes would have more Dark Earth sensibilities ("Earth Tarsh"), more matrilineal traditions, more Maran Gor initiates/shrines, etc. But probably not as much as the Wintertop Tarsh Exiles... after all, the Far Place was settled by Bagnot/Dunstop/etc. refugees, not hard core Shaker Temple people. If anything, before they left Tarsh in 1582, there was a tradition of love/hate relationship with the Shaker Temple AFAICT. It ended on a positive note, though, with the Shaker Temple being on their side at the Battle of Grizzly Peak, but still.

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

There is also the issue of rampaging giants detouring south.

I don't know if that would happen more than once a generation or so -- the giants would have to deviate quite a lot from their path. The Tovtaros and Tres tribes might be concerned, but not the Amad and Bachad. As a confederation, the Alone tribes are probably more concerned about Indigo Mountain and Dagori Inkarth trolls, the ghouls in the Woods of the Dead, the occasional Chaos incursion from Snakepipe Hollow, raids from Tusk Riders, etc... and of course their problems with the Lunars and Alda-Chur, their feuds with the Torkani and Dinacoli, etc.

9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

An old skool representation of a Undertribe village, note the sharpened trees sticking out of houses to deter stopping giants.

Heh, funny. I don't think the architecture style would fly by the new art direction standards, but that big stick is a nice idea. Where is that from?

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Alone is a dead-end: if you don't have any business there specifically, you wouldn't go there.

Addendum: I was just checking the Dragon Pass board game map and it looks like Alone is actually an acceptable stop on the way to Ironspike (although why you'd go to Ironspike is another matter).

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

The fact that there is a strong Tarshite presence is very interesting, given the ultimate revolt of the Tarsh exiles against both Sartar and the Lunar Empire.

What's that revolt against Sartar? I don't think I've come across texts mentioning that.

The Rising of Tarsh is the three player scenario in the Dragon Pass boardgame, with Androgeus serving as superhero and best friend of the Earth Twins, who lead an alliance of dragonewts, beastmen, Grazers. Wintertop and the Dwarf, too.

Not in this game are Ethilrist and Cragspider and the minor independents (Puppeteers, Tusk Riders, Sun Domers, the dragons, Hydra, Traveling Stone, Delecti, Hungry Jack, the dinos.

 

The objective is to hold your own capital and one of the other two capitals. (Wintertop, Boldhome, Furthest). Much like the other full games, there is no clear information whether this is a singular occurance or something that happened repeatedly.

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Heh, funny. I don't think the architecture style would fly by the new art direction standards, but that big stick is a nice idea. Where is that from?

It might well be non-canonical but I do love me some William Church. the pic is from Dragon Pass A Gazetteer of Kerofinela page 9.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

... but that big stick is a nice idea. Where is that from?

I don't recall the origin, but have long and repeatedly seen references to the "fact" (dunno current canon) that some places implant gigantic stakes -- or even just trim & sharpen whole trees -- to deter giant-stompage.

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

It might well be non-canonical but I do love me some William Church. the pic is from Dragon Pass A Gazetteer of Kerofinela page 9.

I think it originally appeared in Wyrms Footprints.

[Corvantir]

I don't know if this is its first appearance but the pic is indeed in Wyrms Footprints, page 13: Famous sights of Dragon Pass #1 - A village near Alone.  

[Darius West]

On 1/4/2020 at 6:00 AM, lordabdul said:

What's that revolt against Sartar? I don't think I've come across texts mentioning that.

It is referenced in the Dragon Pass Boardgame as a scenario, and in the RQ Compendium (1983) in "The Dispatch of Fadabius" p29. I assume you have already encountered p10 The Harlot of Alone?

[Jeff]

ALDA-CHUR

Alda-Chur (which means “Far Point”) was founded around 1350 by refugees from what is now Holay. They were fleeing from the military campaigns of the Conquering Daughter, a Lunar demi-goddess who conquered South Peloria. The city started as a village, then became a tribal center, and joined the Kingdom of Tarsh around 1390. As their population grew, the Alda-Chur tribe split into three tribes, and the settlement was shared in common as their religious and market center. The Alda-Chur tribes grew numerous and powerful, and in 1448, Tarkalor the Huge, a Princeros tribesman, was proclaimed Prince and then named King of Tarsh. He failed in his attempt, and the Alda-Chur tribes later pledged their allegiance to Tarsh. The Alda-Churi refused to acknowledge the Lunar Governor Kings and fought against the Lunars at the Battle of Dancing Sisters in 1490. After the Lunar victory, the Alda-Churi looked to the new kingdom of Sartar for protection against the Lunar Empire. 

Unlike the other Sartarite cities, Alda-Chur was not built according to a plan, but grew organically and haphazardly around a central temple complex. Temples to Orlanth Rex, the Lightbringers, Yelmalio, and Ernalda, were surrounded by a disorderly ring of residences, warehouses, and other buildings. 

Alda-Chur became a formal ally of the House of Sartar in 1565 and became a full member of the kingdom in 1582, after the defeat of King Tarkalor and the Feathered Horse Queen at the Battle of Grizzly Peak. Prince Terasarin took a wife from the Far Point, a woman chieftain of the Tovtaros named Hindala, and extended the royal road from Dangerford to Alda-Chur. The city grew rapidly from trade and built inns and caravanserais, and Prince Terasarin even constructed a fine Geo’s Inn. New walls were constructed and the city reached its zenith.

In 1602, the Alda-Churi joined the Household of Death to counterattack against the Lunar invasion and marched against Tarsh. They beat off a troll ambush, and the Tusk Riders too. When they reached the Glowline, the full magical force from the Temple of the Reaching Moon routed them, and they fled back to Alda-Chur in disorder. Alda-Chur submitted to the Red Emperor and was placed under the direct oversight of the Lunar Provincial Government. The Alda-Churi tribes were divided between pro- and anti-Lunar factions, that by 1606 broke out into the Righteous Wind Rebellion. The Vantaros tribal leader, Harvar Ironfist, sided with the Lunar Empire and in 1611, he crushed the Righteous Wind Rebellion with fire and sword. With the support of the Lunar Provincial Government, Harvar made himself Prince of Alda-Chur and subjected the Far Point to his despotic rule. 

Harvar Ironfist’s tyranny continued until 1625, when he died in the Dragonrise. Soon after, General Fazzur Wideread and the Tarshite Army marched on Alda-Chur. Sympathizers threw open the gates, and many joined his army. After some quick alliance-making, the Tarshite army moved towards Boldhome but were stopped at Dangerford by Kallyr Starbrow and a collection of Sartarite tribal militias. General Fazzur withdrew to Alda-Chur, which was placed under a Tarshite garrison.

[Jeff]

ALONE

Alone was built in 1583 by Prince Terasarin as a refuge for those Tarshite Exiles clans who fled after the Battle of Grizzly Peak. It is well-fortified with the characteristic stone walls of the other Sartarite cities, and prominent temples to Orlanth Rex, Uleria, Ernalda, and Maran Gor. Alone is the market, political, and religious center for a confederation of the Amad, Bachad, and Tres tribes. Alone has several inns, including Geo’s Alone Inn. A dragonewt road runs through Alone; as a result, dragonewts occasionally visit. However, the city never became a major trade route, and, as its name suggests, was largely isolated from the rest of Sartar. 

There are about 1000 permanent residents, but winter drives many to seek shelter within the walls of the city,

After the conquest of Sartar, Alone surrendered to the Red Emperor but was it considered too poor and too strategically irrelevant to warrant a garrison and was largely ignored by the Lunar Provincial Government. In 1611, the city offered a token submission to Harvar Ironfist of Alda-Chur, but was largely left alone. As a result, the city became a refuge for exiles and rebels from the Righteous Wind Rebellion and Starbrow’s Rebellion. It has declined under the Lunar Occupation, and now has many abandoned buildings. 

[Lordabdul]

Nice surprise to see Jeff drop by here again! Thanks a lot!

I can recognize bits of these texts from the usual main sources, but this specific combination of paragraphs, along with a few new extra bits, seems new. Is that something you wrote for some upcoming book, like the Campaign book maybe?

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

After the conquest of Sartar, Alone surrendered to the Red Emperor but was it considered too poor and too strategically irrelevant to warrant a garrison and was largely ignored by the Lunar Provincial Government.

Nice, I think this is one of the new bits of information I hadn't seen before. And this was one of my many interrogations, wondering if I should have a permanent garrison in/near Alone, or just a temporary camp or confiscated building as needed when Lunars have business in town... having someone else take these kinds of decisions really helps GM preparation  

[g33k]

On 5/20/2020 at 10:55 AM, lordabdul said:

Nice surprise to see Jeff drop by here again! Thanks a lot!

 ... wondering if I should have a permanent garrison in/near Alone, or just a temporary camp or confiscated building as needed when Lunars have business in town... having someone else take these kinds of decisions really helps GM preparation  

I think there's plenty of room in Jeff's description to fit whatever degree of Lunar presence you want in Alone (other than a major garrison of elite troops!).

For my tastes... I think it sounds like a small-ish permanent garrison, largely for appearances sake (many (or most? (or all?)) of whom have "gone native" to varying degrees, but still need to answer to the occasional visiting official, troops marching thru between meaningful places, etc) as the MGF situation.

YGWV

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I think there's plenty of room in Jeff's description to fit whatever degree of Lunar presence you want in Alone (other than a major garrison of elite troops!).

For my tastes... I think it sounds like a small-ish permanent garrison, largely for appearances sake (many (or most? (or all?)) of whom have "gone native" to varying degrees, but still need to answer to the occasional visiting official, troops marching thru between meaningful places, etc) as the MGF situation.

Yeah that's what I'm going for, more or less. To be clear, I was previously debating with myself whether Alone would have a permanent Lunar presence in the form of some kind of local Lunar Provincial Governor living in some permanent villa in, or near, Alone, with a permanent guard and patrol.

Now I'm thinking it's more appropriate anyway to have Lunar officials only visit from the time to time, and have varying numbers of Lunar soldiers posted there depending on any ongoing Lunar business in the region. In most cases, the Lunars might not even care too much themselves, instead delegating most matters to Harvar and his Yelmalite bullies... so half the time it would be those people instead of Lunars coming in town (and probably looking down on everything, eager to go back to Alda-Chur as soon as possible).

One of the big opportunities for adventure and intrigue in the Far Place at this time is the number of Sartarite rebels looking for a place to hide, so every now and then some Lunars and Yelmalites would arrive in force, spending a few weeks or more intimidating various local steads and clan rings until one of them gives up the fugitives.