Jump to content

Subcults and other cults


Pheres

Recommended Posts

Subcults can provide rune spells that are different from the main cult. But can subcults have particular subcult skills?

And could a subcult have different cults affinities than the main cult.

For exemple, can a Daka Fal subcult that is related to an ancestor who is the daughter of Orlanth be associated with Orlanth cult (Daka Fal cult is not in good standing with Orlanth, basicaly)?

Do you know if this is describe in the futur book on cults?

Thanks

Edited by Pheres
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Pheres said:

...

For exemple, can a Daka Fal subcult that is related to an ancestor who is the daughter of Orlanth be associated with Orlanth cult (Daka Fal cult is not in good standing with Orlanth, basicaly)?

...

I think it makes perfect sense for such a thing to happen.

Even if nothing gets published to this effect, I wouldn't hesitate to include it in Your Glorantha.

Remember -- there's nothing sacrosanct in "canon," indeed MUCH of what's "canonical" is nothing more that what evolved at the table in Chaosium house-games, at big 'Con games & events, etc...  Your version of Glorantha is EQUALLY supposed to evolve at YOUR table!

C'es ne pas un .sig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I think it makes perfect sense for such a thing to happen.

Even if nothing gets published to this effect, I wouldn't hesitate to include it in Your Glorantha.

Remember -- there's nothing sacrosanct in "canon," indeed MUCH of what's "canonical" is nothing more that what evolved at the table in Chaosium house-games, at big 'Con games & events, etc...  Your version of Glorantha is EQUALLY supposed to evolve at YOUR table!

I know and even if i am not the Game master of our RQG game, i also know that my GM (even if he is free, and not really mine) will allow such thing, i would like to know if it was more detailed in the gods books! :) I like books, because they always open new ways for me to play and understand the game. I am a new Glorantha player, RQG is the first edition i ever played, so everything, including clear canon rules help me!

Edit: for exemple, when i read that a Daka Fal priest is a shaman and not need standard prerequisits for becoming one, several ideas come in my mind. First of them, because an initiate is an apprentice shaman who spend 90% of is time with his mentor, i think that 80% or more of daka fall initiates are trying to become shaman (and also priest) in order to become "free". So this particular cult should have more priests than initiates. And as i have understand this is not a common thing for a cult...

So sometimes, "litlle" rules can change the world! (Ok some GM could change this and say that for becoming a priest you also need the standard, in this case their will be less Daka Fall priest and more initiates, but a great number of initiates will be shamans...)

 

Edited by Pheres
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Pheres said:

But can subcults have particular subcult skills?

I don't see why not. I imagine they'd be more specialized/otherwise specific than the main cult. Or swap skills out—like, "your Orlanth Adventurous uses Broadsword, but our Orlanth Adventure-ish uses Dagger!"

2 hours ago, Pheres said:

For exemple, can a Daka Fal subcult that is related to an ancestor who is the daughter of Orlanth be associated with Orlanth cult (Daka Fal cult is not in good standing with Orlanth, basicaly)?

I don't have any information about the forthcoming cults book, but my inference is that the Odayla cult in the core rulebook is basically this situation. (BTW, the way it was explained to me around the forums is that Daka Fal doesn't get along with anyone because he (as Grandfather Mortal) blames the gods for killing him, and they blame him for dying, the asshole.)

34 minutes ago, Pheres said:

First of them, because an initiate is an apprentice shaman who spend 90% of is time with his mentor, i think that 80% or more of daka fall initiates are trying to become shaman (and also priest) in order to become "free". So this particular cult should have more priests than initiates. And as i have understand this is not a common thing for a cult..

I don't think all Daka Fal initiates are apprentice shamans. For example, I'm an apprentice shaman because my great-uncle Borog recognizes my birth-mark as a sign that I've been chosen by the Horned Man. My father is an important leader in the family, but wasn't chosen by the Horned Man. He's still an initiate—he can summon our ancestors to receive advice, cast magic, and so on—but he can't see into the Spirit World or go in search of other spirits.

The following is may be largely speculation: I believe that most family bloodlines, noble houses, and so on essentially represent a Daka Fal cult. In some instances, there's probably a "normal" priest of said cult, in the role of the family head. Or perhaps they fulfill that role as the priest of the family wyter, a notable ancestor (probably family founder) housed in some artifact. Yet some families still probably have the presented shaman-as-priest, where someone of the younger generation is present to become the future shaman-priest.

  • Like 2

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my publications here. Disclaimer: affiliate link.

Social Media: Facebook Patreon Twitter Website

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Pheres said:

... I am a new Glorantha player, RQG is the first edition i ever played, so everything, including clear canon rules help me!

Well... hey then, welcome to the Tribe!   😊

Something to understand about Glorantha, is that it's intentionally ambiguous.  Originally created by Greg Stafford in exploring mythology and anthropology, many of what are considered "foundational documents" of the world (q.v. the Stafford Library) are written from in-character and "everything is relative" points of view, biased and contradictory.  They more resemble the documents that historians & anthropologists would study, than RPG sourcebooks.

The motto "YGWV" -- Your Glorantha Will Vary -- is possibly the single most-cited bit of advice on this forum.

 

If you're interested in Orlanthi-flavored shamanism, also look to Kolat:

https://www.glorantha.com/docs/some-gods/   (scroll down for Kolat's section)

https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Kolat

If you're willing to just take the fluff, with no mechanics, I think the book Sartar Companion (for the HQ game rather than RQ; but still Glorantha!) has the most-recent / most-complete write-up of Kolat:  https://www.chaosium.com/sartar-companion/ .   I understand that Kolat is getting a full write-up in the (upcoming) Cults duology... but those books are still quite a ways downstream in the publishing schedule!

  • Like 1

C'es ne pas un .sig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

IIRC the Kuschile subcult of Yelmalio (possibly no longer canon) taught the skill of horse archery.  Even if my memory is at fault, it is perfectly reasonable for there to be specific skills. 

Kuschile is still canon, but I think has been moved to "technically Kargzant" while remaining Yelmalio ruleswise? 

  • Like 1

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to all of you.

I am a new RQG player, but still playing for litlle more than one year, so i have read/play/experiment things, but want to know more...

I was knowing the fact that a lot of materials are anbiguous, even contradictory, but both can be "canon", and that the only true "canon" rule is that Your Glorantha Will Vary! :)

But a lot of things you were writing is interesting for me.

I am playing with an experimented Gloranthan GM, who is well knowing Glorantha, but all of, his players are starting with RQG, some of us are still playing at RQG for less than 6 monthes. The major difficulty for us is to understand how a character who is both a professional with a particular activity and also a cult initiate have to act. I think that if one day a book is written that's says how a typical merchant that is also an initiate of Issarie (for exemple) is thinking, it will help us. A book that contain short stories showing a typical day for him as a merchant and as an initiate and all other "standard" people could be a great thing.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Pheres said:

Thanks to all of you.

I am a new RQG player, but still playing for litlle more than one year, so i have read/play/experiment things, but want to know more...

I was knowing the fact that a lot of materials are anbiguous, even contradictory, but both can be "canon", and that the only true "canon" rule is that Your Glorantha Will Vary! :)

But a lot of things you were writing is interesting for me.

I am playing with an experimented Gloranthan GM, who is well knowing Glorantha, but all of, his players are starting with RQG, some of us are still playing at RQG for less than 6 monthes. The major difficulty for us is to understand how a character who is both a professional with a particular activity and also a cult initiate have to act. I think that if one day a book is written that's says how a typical merchant that is also an initiate of Issarie (for exemple) is thinking, it will help us. A book that contain short stories showing a typical day for him as a merchant and as an initiate and all other "standard" people could be a great thing.

Have you read the Travels of Biturian Varosh?  It's "personal journal" entries from a merchant who's also a priest of Issaries.  Pretty much EXACTLY what you describe!

It's in the original Cults of Prax book (coming back into print via the RQClassic Kickstarter (it's a stretch-goal from the KS, and only in PDF for now; but (at least theoretically) expected to be available in hardcover "eventually").  It was also re-printed in the Glorantha Classics series Cult Compendium book, available both PDF and hardcover (note hardcover, and so a bit dear).

I don't know of any other Cult+Professional (canonical) account that covers so much of a character's life, unfortunately.

There's also some Gloranthan fiction floating 'round...  Complete Griselda, etc.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

C'es ne pas un .sig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Have you read the Travels of Biturian Varosh?  It's "personal journal" entries from a merchant who's also a priest of Issaries.  Pretty much EXACTLY what you describe!

It's in the original Cults of Prax book (coming back into print via the RQClassic Kickstarter (it's a stretch-goal from the KS, and only in PDF for now; but (at least theoretically) expected to be available in hardcover "eventually").  It was also re-printed in the Glorantha Classics series Cult Compendium book, available both PDF and hardcover (note hardcover, and so a bit dear).

Travels of Biturian Varosh can also be found on the internet with a little searching; I think it was on the old Issaries site if you're willing to use wayback. But yeah, it's a great resource and imo a better and more approachable one than Vasana's Saga, though of course that's just my opinion.

CoP/the Cult Compendium are great resources for background lore too, as well as having more detailed cult information including worshipper duties and expectations. Even if they're a tad dated they're a good read if you don't want to wait for the upcoming cults book (which I'd hazard has up to a year or so left to go). I would recommend the Cult Compendium over CoP though, it includes information from several more books and is generally better presented compared; CoP is more something to buy for nostalgia's sake than for pure usefulness.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Pheres said:

can subcults have particular subcult skills?

Yes. Some subcults exist just for that purpose

14 hours ago, Pheres said:

And could a subcult have different cults affinities than the main cult.

I think that a lot of sub-cults are just that - rather than teaching a rune spell themselves, they may teach how to learn a rune spell from an associated cult. For example in Hero Wars there was a sub-cult or Ernalda called Overdruva Forest Friend who taught elf friend magic (because HW had a sub-cult for everything). In RQG, Overdruva would be the name of the minor goddess who teaches how to get the associated cult spell from Aldrya, and you can either use that to make learning the spell interesting, or ignore it entirely as irrelevant to the rules. 
And associations are the most likely thing to vary regionally, they do so very often. 

 

14 hours ago, Pheres said:

For exemple, can a Daka Fal subcult that is related to an ancestor who is the daughter of Orlanth be associated with Orlanth cult

I think that sort of thing, associated with a particular ancestor or hero, is really common. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Pheres said:

Subcults can provide rune spells that are different from the main cult. But can subcults have particular subcult skills?

 

I can not recall if it is rules as written to just the way I have always played it that the Chalana Arroy subcult Arroin (her magic-less child) is the originator of the skill, first aid.  Another example would be the subcult of Yelmalio that taught Kuschile Horse Archery band in RQ 2 (I believe this skill is just assumed to ne had by all in RG G). @Ali the Helering beat me for Kuchile but...

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SUBCULTS

A subcult is a smaller and often local version of a cult, which worships a local variant of the deity, a minor god subservient to the deity, an ancient hero, family ancestors, or an obscure spirit surviving from the God Time. Such deities are always worshiped as aspects of, or otherwise in association with a greater deity. The lesser deity obtains its glory and existence from the larger cult. The subcult has no existence independent of the larger cult. 

Major cults always include subcults; some cults like Orlanth have subcults of minor deities and spirits and/or dead heroes. These entities depend completely upon the central deity for existence: they are not worshiped outside the cult. Some, like Orlanth, have over a dozen commonly recognized subcults.

A subcult provides access to additional Rune spells, spirit magic, skills, or powers to initiates of the greater cult who also worship through the subcult.

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Major cults always include subcults; some cults like Orlanth have subcults of minor deities and spirits and/or dead heroes. These entities depend completely upon the central deity for existence: they are not worshiped outside the cult. Some, like Orlanth, have over a dozen commonly recognized subcults. 

Since Helamakt (Heler as thane of Orlanth) and Heler both exist, surely this isn't universally true? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Since Helamakt (Heler as thane of Orlanth) and Heler both exist, surely this isn't universally true? 

Helamakt exists as a subcult of Heler. Heler is a quite complex deity, important to the Sea Pantheon although tragically severed from it, and the Orlanthi subcults probably cover only parts of what Heler once had. He is a friend to the Blue Moon and her husband Lorian, for instance, and aided them in their rise.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Travels of Biturian Varosh can also be found on the internet with a little searching; I think it was on the old Issaries site if you're willing to use wayback. But yeah, it's a great resource and imo a better and more approachable one than Vasana's Saga, though of course that's just my opinion.

...

I'm not aware of ToBV ever having been officially released online... but then again, "I'm not aware of..." should probably be tattoo'ed inside my eyelids as a reminder of all the stuff I don't know.

Personally, I think Chaosium should go ahead and put the Travels online, together with tiny snippets of CoP for a bit more detail.  I think it may be the single best bit of advertising & n00b-support they have available.  I've yet to find anything as evocative and immersive... including, sadly, both Vasana's Saga, and the Reminiscences of Paulis Longvale. (originally in Cults of Terror, most recently in the Cult Compendium).

Dunno... maybe it's just that I read it when I was young and foolish and impressionable, and had never seen it's like in all my vast gaming experience of... uhh... 3 prior RPG's.  I might actually ask someone who's never read any of them to read all 3, and give me relative impressions...  🤔

 

Edited by g33k
  • Like 2

C'es ne pas un .sig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Helamakt exists as a subcult of Heler. Heler is a quite complex deity, important to the Sea Pantheon although tragically severed from it, and the Orlanthi subcults probably cover only parts of what Heler once had. He is a friend to the Blue Moon and her husband Lorian, for instance, and aided them in their rise.

Indeed, but he has also been listed as a subcult of Orlanth.  This is a separate existence, nicht wahr

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Indeed, but he has also been listed as a subcult of Orlanth.  This is a separate existence, nicht wahr

It is not a separate existence as a cult with its own (independent) altar or temple, just a shared subcult. Much like Arroin is a shared subcult of Chalana Arroy and Humakt.

For a fringe case, Hedkoranth the Thunder Slinger might be a better case, as his subcult was almost an independent cult in the HeroQuest era. Probably not any more, though.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I quite liked that one myself. Surprised ya didna like it,

Oh, I liked it fine!

I just thought the Travels was better, both as "setting evocative" in showcasing each cult and its fit into the world, and also just as forming a storyline of the character.

Of course, the entire POINT of the Cults in CoT is how much they DON'T "fit into the world," so there's that.  CoP is a PC-centric resource, CoT is GM-centric.

Possibly it was that Travels featured the "main character," whereas in Reminiscences, Paulis mostly seemed to be somebody else's associate (not the lead).

C'es ne pas un .sig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I just thought the Travels was better, both as "setting evocative" in showcasing each cult and its fit into the world, and also just as forming a storyline of the character.

Too each there own, the tales of the orlanthi of that part of the world told during such an epic period made me want to play Dorastor (an itch I have yet to scratch). Evocative, hells yeah!

BRING ON THE UNDEAD!

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

SUBCULTS

 Such deities are always worshiped as aspects of, or otherwise in association with a greater deity. The lesser deity obtains its glory and existence from the larger cult. The subcult has no existence independent of the larger cult. 

Major cults always include subcults; some cults like Orlanth have subcults of minor deities and spirits and/or dead heroes. These entities depend completely upon the central deity for existence: they are not worshiped outside the cult. 

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

It is not a separate existence as a cult with its own (independent) altar or temple, just a shared subcult. Much like Arroin is a shared subcult of Chalana Arroy and Humakt.

For a fringe case, Hedkoranth the Thunder Slinger might be a better case, as his subcult was almost an independent cult in the HeroQuest era. Probably not any more, though.

These arguments appear mutually contradictory.  Either the subcult has no existence outside of a central cult, or it can be shared between several. Indeed, it was previously stated that Hedkoranth had a distinct cult. 

I appreciate that the system has changed, but that doesn't mean that the Gloranthan mythology changes.  The mode of simulation does not change that which is being simulated, quantum universes aside😎

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barntar is possibly the most venerable "subcult of Orlanth" with a life of its own. Odayla is similar.

Hedkoranth the Thunder Slinger has always been a Thunder Brother, as have the two aforementioned deities. The Thunder Brothers are one of those collective cults that defy normal rules, much like the Seven Mothers.

Identifications are often only semi-correct - look at the difficulty to make sense of Dendara's relationship to Entekos. Likewise the Lightfore deities...

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...