Number of Manors in Salisbury

[Morien]

2 hours ago, creativehum said:

What do you do with this information in play?

Atgxtg already gave a good response on why to is useful to know the income and even the distribution of the lands of the nobleman. After all, one of the big things during the Anarchy is that the outliers probably get gobbled up by the more powerful neighbors, so this sets up a possibility for the PKs to consolidate Salisbury's power over some of those pieces... while at the same time Salisbury likely loses its own outliers, diminishing the income. Also, having different liege lords provides a bit more of a chance of strife and escalation, as the conflicting knights owe allegiance to different lords.

That being said, I think going into decimal digits was a step too far. Indeed, in our campaign, I operate mainly on the '1 manor = 1 knight' principle, assuming £10 manors. Granted, the improvements that the PKs have built on their manors means that they will differ from the £10 average, but as far as the NPCs are concerned, this is good enough for me. Personally, if I had the choice, I would rather have a map of Salisbury with all the manors mapped out, with a color code or something to signal who owns what, than a list of £YY.Y per hundred, or even per manor. The former is much more intuitive and easier to see whose lands might be exposed to what raid, while the latter is more of a perfectionist look, and which will get skewed as soon as the PK starts building something in his home hundred/manor. Having the Salisbury map of  hundreds are better than nothing, bit not the ideal case, IMHO. Hence why I used the Salisbury manorial map during our campaign's Anarchy.

 

 

[Atgxtg]

15 minutes ago, Morien said:

After all, one of the big things during the Anarchy is that the outliers probably get gobbled up by the more powerful neighbors, so this sets up a possibility for the PKs to consolidate Salisbury's power over some of those pieces... while at the same time Salisbury likely loses its own outliers, diminishing the income.

Yeah and that paints some  interesting targets for ambitious knights looking to move up the social ladder. A PK who can wrest  control of several  nearby manors along the border has a real chance of becoming a small estate holder and  a powerful man in the county.

Quote

Indeed, in our campaign, I operate mainly on the '1 manor = 1 knight' principle, assuming £10 manors. Granted, the improvements that the PKs have built on their manors means that they will differ from the £10 average, but as far as the NPCs are concerned, this is good enough for me. Personally, if I had the choice, I would rather have a map of Salisbury with all the manors mapped out, with a color code or something to signal who owns what, than a list of £YY.Y per hundred, or even per manor.

Me too. I think the hundreds and all  that  is probably info more useful to clerks and bean  counters than to knights. I think a simple list of manors with a default in come (which  could vary a little for individual manors,  but over an area  it would average out about the same) is better for knights way of thinking and for gamers as well. It's really  easy to just say,  Sir So&So is a Baron with an income of £250/year and thus holds around 25 manors and commands  around 25 knights (about 5 are vassal knights) and 50 footmen, with about £25 in discretionary funds. The actual numbers can vary a bit either way (say +/-20%) but we know that we're in the right neighborhood, and it's very quick.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Atgxtg

[creativehum]

2 hours ago, Morien said:

That being said, I think going into decimal digits was a step too far.

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Me too.

Okay. That's what I was thinking.

Like, I get the value of the data you guys pull from the information in the Book of Warlords. But it seems like extra steps have been put into place for what someone running the game might mostly likely need/use.

 

[Atgxtg]

50 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Okay. That's what I was thinking.

Like, I get the value of the data you guys pull from the information in the Book of Warlords. But it seems like extra steps have been put into place for what someone running the game might mostly likely need/use.

 

I think it was a case of giving a complete picture for those who wanted to get an idea just how many knights, soldiers, and wealth there was in Britain. One of the benefits of that is that  the  number of knights in Britain has actually changed a bit to reflect the econmic realities.  

[Uqbarian]

19 hours ago, creativehum said:

Sincere question to most of the posters here:

When I see information like that in the quote above Ihave no idea what I would do with it.

But many people here are obviously familiar with the numbers, have thought about the numbers. I'm curious: What do you do with this information in play? How does it help? (I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm asking how, because my imagination can't cough something up.)

How do the Player Knights interact with it? Is it for battles?

Is it required for certain types of KAP campaigns? And so on. 

Very curious about how this level of detail is utilized in play.

Thanks!

For me, the numbers (and the material around them) help me get an idea of the big picture of Logres and the interests of Uther and his barons, as well as giving me a range of benchmarks for things like how valuable a particular gift is. If, say, the PKs start a feud with Sir Staterius of Thornbush, I have a pretty good idea of what resources he has, and if they've annoyed some other minor baron, Staterius still provides a useful model.

The economic (and political-legal) details look particularly useful for the Anarchy (if my game ever gets there!), and more generally if any of the PKs become estate holders or otherwise have reason to be interested in high-level politics and military decision making.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Uqbarian

[Tizun Thane]

To be honest, in my campaign, I don't use "hundreds", and all manors give 10 £ for simplicity's sake.

I still used the number of knights in the old books (especially knights adventurous or the Boy King) to estimate the power of any nobleman. If the lord of XXX have a garnison of 10 K and 25 footmen, his estate is probably of 105 £.

IMO, for your campaign, you just have to figure out:

• the count and his family (already done)
• his officers, their loyalty and their future
• a few powerful bannermen, their loyalty and their future
• a few vassal (and bachelors) knights to interact with
• a few maids to marry (not the heiresses, but more of girl-next-door vibe). The sister (cousin) of some PK, the daughter of a neighbor, etc., with special attention to their personality.

The last is for a quick wedding if your PK are inclined. The others points are for flavor, and will become especially useful during the Anarchy.

[creativehum]

On 12/14/2019 at 7:10 AM, creativehum said:

SALISBURY MANORS

• 150 Manors
• Of those, the Count of Salisbury controls 90
• Of those 90 manors the Count retains direct control of 70 manors
• Of those remaining 20 manors, the Count has given them as single-manor gifts and grants to officers and a couple of bannerets (The Player Knights, using the KAP Family History rules, will draw their manor from this pool. The Player Knight's father married a woman who inherited the manor from her father, who in turn was an officer to the count, or whose father was, and was granted the manor years before the Player Knight was born.)
• Of the remaining 60 remaining manors from the 150 manors and outside the Count's control, they are controlled by other lords, some inside Salisbury and some outside.

Hi there, a bit of thread necro, as a question popped into my head.

Above is the distillation of the answer I was given a year ago. 

I am now curious about that 3rd bullet point, the manors that the count controls, but that are not gifts or grants.

Who lives in those? Who takes care of them? Are they knights? Do they have obligations to the Count (Earl, whatever)? Are they part of the knights that make up his army? And if not, who are they and what is their relation to the Count?

Thanks!

[Call Me Deacon Blues]

Well, the Count would spend a bit of time there, when he's out on progress. Probably has a household knight or two that stay there pretty much all the time. Certainly at least some guards and servants, even when not in use

[creativehum]

Okay, cool. So at the 70 or so manors he probably has household kngihts, responsible for protecting the manor, but not collecting money from it. Instead the Count pays them directly or is responsible for their upkeep. 

Thanks!

[Morien]

See KAP 5.2, p. 77, Table 3.1.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Morien

[Uqbarian]

Expanding on Morien's point, I think the manors that Roderick holds directly (his demesne manors) won't normally have knights present. They'd be managed by a bailiff at each manor or equivalent, reporting to Roderick's seneschal. The people living at them would be more or less the usual manorial staff minus a knight and family.

(If I'm reading Book of the Warlord correctly, a single steward is enough for outlier holdings within a single county, and for the county that contains the caput major the steward's duties are folded into those of the seneschal. For that many manors, I'd be tempted to throw in a few stewards as middle managers between the bailiffs and the seneschal, though, with each steward doing a circuit through about a dozen manors.)

[Morien]

5 hours ago, Uqbarian said:

Expanding on Morien's point, I think the manors that Roderick holds directly (his demesne manors) won't normally have knights present. They'd be managed by a bailiff at each manor or equivalent, reporting to Roderick's seneschal. The people living at them would be more or less the usual manorial staff minus a knight and family.

Yep.  With occasional patrol or individual knights or the whole procession of the Count visiting from time to time. But generally, they would not be constantly garrisoned. Most of the Household Knights and foot soldiers that those manors support are concentrated in the garrisons that matter. Raiders are less likely to penetrate deeply into the county before noticed, and certainly the damage they can do before the closest patrol/garrison can intervene is very limited.

Quote

(If I'm reading Book of the Warlord correctly, a single steward is enough for outlier holdings within a single county, and for the county that contains the caput major the steward's duties are folded into those of the seneschal. For that many manors, I'd be tempted to throw in a few stewards as middle managers between the bailiffs and the seneschal, though, with each steward doing a circuit through about a dozen manors.)

I do likewise, but the economics on that scale is not really all that important. The only difference is that the Count would have half a dozen stewards rather than a few musicians and other entertainers.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Morien