Differences Between Yu-Kargzant and Yelm's Cults

[Lordabdul]

46 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think part of the problem is that on the forums people have focused on GRoY

As a relative newcomer to Glorantha I can say that I'm also a bit confused about how the solar and lunar cults co-exist (and especially how solars make up the lunar noblesse), but it's definitely not based on GRoY or anything (I haven't read it) -- it's just based on a few bits of RQ/HQ material where I can find NPC descriptions of Lunar Empire nobles and military officers. I frankly didn't look into it because, as a new RQ convert, I figured I'll just start with a couple of "classic" Sartarite campaigns....so with the main point of view being Orlanthi or Praxian, it's easy to put Yelmites/Lunars in one big bucket labelled "bad guys" and forget about it... I'm looking forward to some clarification on the matter though!

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

As a relative newcomer to Glorantha I can say that I'm also a bit confused about how the solar and lunar cults co-exist (and especially how solars make up the lunar noblesse), but it's definitely not based on GRoY or anything (I haven't read it) -- it's just based on a few bits of RQ/HQ material where I can find NPC descriptions of Lunar Empire nobles and military officers. I frankly didn't look into it because, as a new RQ convert, I figured I'll just start with a couple of "classic" Sartarite campaigns....so with the main point of view being Orlanthi or Praxian, it's easy to put Yelmites/Lunars in one big bucket labelled "bad guys" and forget about it... I'm looking forward to some clarification on the matter though!

I should have been clearer - the problem is the idea that there is conflict between the Lunar cults and the Solar cults in the modern Lunar Empire. Yes, the Dara Happan Tripolis rebelled against Monsoon in the late 1200s as part of Jannisor's War. But that was in the early period of the Lunar Empire - think like the First Fitna during the early Islamic Empire.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Is this something coming soon-ish, to the Jonstown Compendium? 

Yes, that is the plan! New Lolon Gospel is returning (though in a more topical format).

 

[davecake]

On 12/19/2019 at 2:30 AM, Joerg said:

I wonder how foreign oppressors manage to be worse than the native Yelmic nobility and their terrible ways for their less privileged subjects and "minorities".

Well, in Shengs Empire, regular rape and murder, plus destroying the agricultural system to there is famine and mass starvation as a matter of policy. It’s easy if you really try.

[Joerg]

18 minutes ago, davecake said:

Well, in Shengs Empire, regular rape and murder, plus destroying the agricultural system to there is famine and mass starvation as a matter of policy. It’s easy if you really try.

Business like the Lunar occupation in Sartar and Heortland, then - e.g. where Char-un were stationed, or where Chaos was tolerated or even released.

Sheng's minions use terror tactics to quell rebellions. Tatius does the same. So did Parg Ilisi.

But let's leave Sheng alone, and look at the evil tyranny of the Bull Shahs. Or the Dragon Sun. Ok, it is scaly, but it is golden, too. And what atrocities did Vastolf son of Quivin impose on the Dara Happans after the Gbaji Wars?

[soltakss]

Don't forget that the Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor, Yelm's Incarnation and the True emperor. he was accepted as a co-Emperor and heir to the last of the Dara Happan Emperors who preceded him.

So, any Yelm cultists really should support the Red Emperor, as he is the head of their cult.

[Qizilbashwoman]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

the evil tyranny of the Bull Shahs

i'm unclear the Bull Shahs were evil and tyrannical, is this actually canon? I thought the rule of the Bull Shahs was actually excellent and a time of intellectual and political flourishing, it's just that Dara Happans are wildly xenophobic

The first Bull Shah, Shah Tavar, was a devotee of Bisos and the son of a priestess of Esus (Eiritha) who overthrew the Spolites and reinstated the righteous rule
"lost since Gartemirius".

Edited December 21, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[g33k]

On 12/19/2019 at 8:24 AM, lordabdul said:

As a relative newcomer to Glorantha I can say that I'm also a bit confused about how the solar and lunar cults co-exist (and especially how solars make up the lunar noblesse), ... it's easy to put Yelmites/Lunars in one big bucket labelled "bad guys" and forget about it... I'm looking forward to some clarification on the matter though!

Dara Happa is an ancient empire worshipping a Solar(ish) pantheon (Yelm is at the top, at least), with the Emperor being the Empire, and Yelm's proxy (the Emperor himself is directly worshipped!).  Dara Happans claim a recorded history back to before the beginning of Time.

Yelm is the God of rightful rulership, the god of the Noble classes.  Merchants, crafters, etc... Not so much, if at all (the nobility AND the Yelm priests would likely see that as making a claim to be "legitimate rulers," aka to be rebels).

When the Lunar powers gained ascendency, they didn't replace the existing Solar nobility, or demand they abandon their ways.  Sedenya's son proved himself Emperor of Dara Happa, Moonson and Red Emperor, and united the Solar & Lunar loyalties in his person.

The Lunar Empire extends beyond Dara Happa these days, but most of the core Lunar region is Dara-Happa-of-old, and virtually all of the Lunar nobility are still Yelm-worshipping Solar cultists.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

Don't forget that the Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor, Yelm's Incarnation and the True emperor. he was accepted as a co-Emperor and heir to the last of the Dara Happan Emperors who preceded him.

So, any Yelm cultists really should support the Red Emperor, as he is the head of their cult.

There are ways to prop up rival emperors, or at least viable alternatives. Preparing to undergo the Ten Tests might weaken the imperial authority of the incumbent, at least over the supporters of the challenger.

The Yelm cult isn't limited to Dara Happa - this is what makes the horse warlords so dangerous for the Empire. They come with equivalent Solar authority, and can establish a rival authority that Yelm cultists can switch allegiance to.

 

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i'm unclear the Bull Shahs were evil and tyrannical, is this actually canon?

Their reign apparently warranted the use of the Crimson Bat and similar Chaos atrocities. Are you telling me that the Seven Mothers rebelled against a benevolent and altruistic regime?

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I thought the rule of the Bull Shahs was actually excellent and a time of intellectual and political flourishing, it's just that Dara Happans are wildly xenophobic

The Lunar rebellion was based on Rinliddi, which is at least untypical Dara Happa.

The Fortunate Succession p.43 has this "nice" and "enlightened" bit:

Quote

In 1173 Yuthuppa surrendered to Shah Cartavar, called the Conqueror. Good Emperor Vinyartyu, at the begging of his court, agreed to abdicate, and departed forever from the sacred city with his family and retainers. Then the remaining officers  of  the  Empire,  all  the  wise  men  and  rich  men, dressed in rags and put chains about their necks, and met Shah Cartavar upon the road where they begged for mercy and  forgiveness  for  their  city  and  people.  They  presented sealed  documents  which  surrendered  the  whole  of  the Empire  to  the  Shah,  on  the  condition  that  the  people  be spared and that ancient customs of the land be respected.

Shah  Cartavar  loved  these  abasements  and  always encouraged the pleaders to exert themselves to even greater extremes. First he asked that all the older men should kill themselves,  which  they  did.  Then  Shah  Cartavar  laughed and said he would honor the surrender documents only if all the men had sex with each other, and then bit off their own thumbs. They did, much to the astonishment of the Shah, and  so  he  spared  the  city  by  virtue  of  these  martyrs' sacrifices.

The Shah accepted the terms, so he slew only hundreds of officers and tradesmen. He also killed all of the criminals in  the  prisons,  for  whatever  reasons  they  were  there.  The Carmanian  armies  then  occupied  the  fortresses  in  all  the cities,  and  some  of  the  houses  in  the  larger  ones.  Their priests did not defame the sacred places, but instead only set up their own squat dark temples in nearby squares.

This example of Carmanian mercy says it all, doesn't it?

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The first Bull Shah, Shah Tavar, was a devotee of Bisos and the son of a priestess of Esus (Eiritha) who overthrew the Spolites and reinstated the righteous rule "lost since Gartemirius".

Gartemirus may have been an enlightened and righteous ruler, but he is not part of the Yelmic canon, and thus by definition unjust.

Sheng Seleris on the other hand is an embodiment of Yelmic justice. "Measured Command from Above." The measures may be drastic, but they certainly come from above.

 

 

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

Dara Happa is an ancient empire worshipping a Solar(ish) pantheon (Yelm is at the top, at least), with the Emperor being the Empire, and Yelm's proxy (the Emperor himself is directly worshipped!).  Dara Happans claim a recorded history back to before the beginning of Time.

Yelm is the God of rightful rulership, the god of the Noble classes.  Merchants, crafters, etc... Not so much, if at all (the nobility AND the Yelm priests would likely see that as making a claim to be "legitimate rulers," aka to be rebels).

Whoever comes out of the Ten Tests wearing the crown, by whichever means, is the just emperor. There is a number of rites that can be taken, and while Solar propaganda states that the Jenarong rites or the Ovosto rites are less powerful, a sufficiently holy Emperor-to-be can offset this against a candidate with better pedigree and a more refined approach. That's how Ovosto became emperor.

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

When the Lunar powers gained ascendency, they didn't replace the existing Solar nobility, or demand they abandon their ways.  Sedenya's son proved himself Emperor of Dara Happa, Moonson and Red Emperor, and united the Solar & Lunar loyalties in his person.

Yelmgatha enabled this development - he probably pawned his emperorship to Teelo Estara, possibly knowingly taking on the role as the sacrificial ruler (as per the Naveria myth?). As soon as he accepted Takenegi as co-emperor, his days were numbered (about 1000).

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

The Lunar Empire extends beyond Dara Happa these days, but most of the core Lunar region is Dara-Happa-of-old, and virtually all of the Lunar nobility are still Yelm-worshipping Solar cultists.

The Dara Happan imperial authority extends beyond Dara Happa proper since halfway forever - look at the imperial musters of Murharzarm or Urvairinus. The Dara Happans have exported their bureaucracy even into Pelanda.

Yelmic overseers - even a lowly market administrator or official in charge of sweeping the streets - are divinity embodied. Flawless pedigree used to be the selection criteria.

Takenegi isn't the first dynastic founder to turn a deeply flawed pedigree into one generally accepted. Avivath's origins are not that flawless. Denesiod was the son of the lewd woman. Karvanyar was the Poor Woman's Son. Bisoshan re-established Idovanic equivalency that was first introduced under Sarenesh but repudiated by Sarenesh's grandson Karsdevan.

The first emperor to ascend to the office in History was Vuranostrum, a nomad, and of unquestioned nobility and justice (though tested by the heirs of Jenarong and Gerruskoger).

Vuranostum's imperial authority is glorified in Dara Happa. He and Jenarong establish the imperial claim for the solar hero from the east.

Avivath undermined the Jenarong rites, and Khordavu replaced them by a more urban variant which has remained dominant since the Theyalans ousted the horse warlords. The Buserian cult is a Deep State bureaucracy that advises (and probably "translates") the demigod pronouncements of the Yelmic nobility embodying imperial authority, and it looks like they did so for Jenarong and Vuranostum as well.

Sheng's regime brought bureaucracy, and thus legitimacy. Whatever horrors he and his minions inflicted on a rebellious population are on the same level as those of Cartavar or of Teelo Estara and Takenegi.

Telling the story from the perspective of the weeder girl Greya or of a dry farmer in Doblian or Rinliddi whose grain fields become designated as horse pasture doesn't capture the crimes of the Yelmic nobility who had pledged those populations to Sheng, then defected (or let themselves be overthrown) by Takenegi.

Dara Happa on Horse still remained after Sheng - the Jenet-aror of Rinliddi were replaced by the Wyula-or only in 6/10, more than a wane after the demise of Sheng.

 

 

 

[davecake]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

Business like the Lunar occupation in Sartar and Heortland,

No. The Lunar occupation did not involve regularly visiting Sartarite communities for no reason other than rape and murder, and did not involve destroying agriculture, causing famine for millions, as a matter of policy. 
OK sure, the wind stop and the winter of 1621-1622. But that was one harvests worth, and most clans had food stores. Shengs policy of starvation went on for years. 
And back to the original question, because this is goal post shifting - minorities in Dara Happa were what was originally discussed, not the extremes of the Sartarite war front, and we have nothing to suggest they were ever subject to organised terrorism through regular rape and murder, or starved in famine conditions. 
My source is the Greya excerpt in Moon Rites, written by Greg. Sheng brutalised the people of Peloria as a matter of policy - not to defeat them in war, but afterwards as an ongoing thing.

[davecake]

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sheng Seleris on the other hand is an embodiment of Yelmic justice. "Measured Command from Above." The measures may be drastic, but they certainly come from above.

Sounds like you’ve been reading Sheng’s propaganda. Sheng the sort of guy who made rivers run red with blood in Kralorela. Did he suddenly discover a thirst for justice in Dara Happa?

Shen returned to ancient Jenarong rites to claim solar Emperorship. Which largely meant returning to a version of Yelm that venerated Kargzant - who mandated harsh nomad code - rather than Antirius.

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sheng's regime brought bureaucracy, and thus legitimacy

 Sheng literally at the core of his regime had bands of fanatic nomads riding around and sacking any city that seemed to offer opposition. Sheng did bring ‘bureaucracy’ in any meaningful way - the Empire had plenty of that before Sheng, and afterwards.

[Jeff]

Sheng does not represent a "return to Jenarong rites" any more than Genghis Khan represents a return to Scythian rites. Sheng Seleris sought to return much of Peloria to open grassland for his nomads. The half-people of Peloria were largely beneath his contempt. Some cities were spared - particularly those with an important religious role. But in other places, the population were simply slaughtered outright.

Sheng's source of "legitimacy" in Peloria was only his ruthless exploitation of his power. But he never passed the ten tests, nor did any of his lieutenants.

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, davecake said:

No. The Lunar occupation did not involve regularly visiting Sartarite communities for no reason other than rape and murder, and did not involve destroying agriculture, causing famine for millions, as a matter of policy. 

The Lunar occupation e.g. of the Aranwyth did not affect millions (Sartar had a population of maybe 200,000 prior to the conquest), but then neither did Sheng's agricultural "reform" affect millions.

Wet farmers had to fear for the dryer fields where they grew the seedlings for their rice paddies, but a muddy field not covered by water still doesn't make useful horse pasture.

A field cultivated for wheat or barley on the other hand is a horse pasture waiting to happen.

Yes, Sheng's policy is a "Lebensraum" policy - the old "farmers vs. ranchers" trope on the genocided lands of the highly efficient grounds that were used for bison harvesting by the native people, originally supporting a population about as large as that of modern day central USA (with the exception of a few big cities).

Yes, the established population is in the way for Sheng's minions. And no, the Lunar conquest of Sartar did not bring a migration of Lunar immigrants of comparable size, although the Maboder tribe was kept annihilated after the Telmori revenge, and plenty a clan lost their prime farmland to Lunar plantations and faced starvation as their herds were culled by heavy taxation, too.

The equivalent of what caused the Frisian uprising against the ox-hide tax described by Tacitus is what happened in Sartar all over the place. The Lunars usurped all the lesser trade concessions the house of Sartar had given to the tribes while demanding the same amount of tax (that used to be forwarded to the princes from that income), nominally keeping the tax burden constant while cutting off the main source of the income that had gone into those taxes. They interfered with the tribal pastoralism - in case of the Aranwyth, destroying the main source of wealth, with the same effec that Pol Pot's forcible introduction of agrarian socialism brought.

Argrath lost his family and his family home and family wealth for no reason at all. That was murder, and we don't know whether there was rape, too. And Argrath will hardly be the only survivor of such atrocities, and those survivors who were led off into slavery (like the tens of thousands of Sartarite slaves who fought alongside Beat-Pot in the Orayan rebellion) were subject to sexual exploitation without having a say in that, too.

 

23 minutes ago, davecake said:

OK sure, the wind stop and the winter of 1621-1622. But that was one harvests worth, and most clans had food stores. Shengs policy of starvation went on for years. 

Sheng's policy of taking the land away was enacted a lot faster than that of e.g. the Lunars in the Grantlands as Sheng brought his replacement population already with him.

There is no difference from hunting the bison to extinction or from taking the most fertile lands away from aboriginal hunting and gathering, other than this time it was sedentary farmers who were forced to pack up. But then the Cherokee displacement was just that, too, with similar results.

This kind of "Lebensraum" conquest always is a cruel genocide, with haphazard murder and rape in its wake. The displaced population is deprived of its humanity, whether as slaves or hunted for sport or trophies. (Like e.g. the skulls "collected" for phrenological studies by imperialist researchers to find scientific proof for the inherent superiority of the settlers that stole the land and starved the natives into extinction.)

The Lunar policy was genocide by slavery, bureaucracy and incremental dispossession. Creating local uprisings as the excuse to enslave thousands, like the Firebull incident. The only trouble was that these rebels were even harder to handle than Pelorian Monster Man uprisings.

The disbanding of the Dundealos and bringing in core clans of the Enstalos with some Dundealos clans allowed to continue in subservient roles is a case of displacement from the land. The Seven Brothers clan of the Colymar looks like another such destructive intrusion, in collusion with Blackmor. (Did the second o in Blackmoor become a victim of political correctness?)

Sheng's minions regarded the entire non-riding population of the Dara Happan bowl as communal slaves, and treated them that way. Non-compliance was rebellion, punishable by death. This included sexual acts. The natives just didn't realize that they had been enslaved - a bureaucratic failure.

But then, a failure of the occupation forces in Sartar, too.

23 minutes ago, davecake said:

And back to the original question, because this is goal post shifting - minorities in Dara Happa were what was originally discussed, not the extremes of the Sartarite war front, and we have nothing to suggest they were ever subject to organised terrorism through regular rape and murder, or starved in famine conditions. 
My source is the Greya excerpt in Moon Rites, written by Greg. Sheng brutalised the people of Peloria as a matter of policy - not to defeat them in war, but afterwards as an ongoing thing.

And your source is the uninformed lowest tier victim, unaware of what her people had done to call in Sheng's rage. Which was probably some accomplicehood in destroying treks of Pentan settlers crossing the Oslir where the Riverfolk had supported such crossings earlier.

Sheng's forces and their families had suffered huge losses to the "heroic river pirates operating out of Alkoth" (think of everything that you might associate with pirates, and with Alkothi, and combine that) that Greya was oblivious to, and which she would have condoned whole-heartedly if she had learned about it. After all, to her those riders had no humanity to speak of. It is no different from Russian and Polish retaliations in East Prussia in WW2.

Of course the survivors of these crossings were traumatized, and paid back the favor to those who had aided and abetted those atrocities. They were hardly different from young Argrath when he went on his rampage against the Lunars who had brutally tortured and murdered his family.

In the Seleric wars the humans on either side rarely fought what they regarded as humans.

[Joerg]

On 12/21/2019 at 9:26 AM, Jeff said:

Sheng does not represent a "return to Jenarong rites" any more than Genghis Khan represents a return to Scythian rites.

Not quite the fair comparison - Sheng was a mere millennium separated from the Jenarong dynasty. Genghis may not even have had Scythians in his ancesty or cultural ancestry, and he came more than two millennia after the two millennia of Scythian culture had petered out. The agricultural method of horse riding and roaming the steppes on wagons was transmitted to unrelated populations just like cattle herding and plowing had been transmitted.

Quote

Sheng Seleris sought to return much of Peloria to open grassland for his nomads.

As did the Char-un before him.

Establishing his nomads on the land suitable for them and re-purposing the previous population elsewhere or simply performing a vermicide was not all he did, or otherwise there was a bunch of grey eminences working alongside Sheng that instituted a very efficient bureaucracy administrating both the eastern and the western walkers under his rule.

Quote

The half-people of Peloria were largely beneath his contempt. Some cities were spared - particularly those with an important religious role. But in other places, the population were simply slaughtered outright.

Sheng did bring in half-people bureaucrats from Kralorela, trained in organizing half-people tribute for his nomads.

Sheng's grab for Vormain shows that his thirst for domination extended even across the Kahar Sea. There is no way he could have even begun to hope to turn Vormain into horse pasture. Ruling over these half-people and their cities obviously had value.

Yes, open grasslands are his goal, and he agrees with the aldryami that the irrigation dry farming in Peloria is a crime against the land. Sheng and the aldryami don't agree on the replacement biome, but they will have the opportunity to fight that out in the Hero Wars.

Jenarong was a second generation horse warlord who discovered the Ten Tests for himself. Bisoshan was a second generation Carmanian conqueror who did so, too. It takes a while for newcomers to grasp the importance these tests have for keeping the population docile.

Quote

Sheng's source of "legitimacy" in Peloria was only his ruthless exploitation of his power. But he never passed the ten tests, nor did any of his lieutenants.

Sheng's lackeys among the Dara Happans on Horse saw this differently, as does the nobility of Velthil. They weren't given enough time to establish Sheng or a minion of his as emperor, and Takenegi and/or Magnificus would have actively prevented any such move. They probably did, and we just didn't learn about that. Some triumphs over near-catastrophes remain unpublicized to avoid imitators.

Half the Dara Happan nobility is willing to adopt horse warlords as their overlords and to get back at the lackeys of Glamour who deprived them of their rightful places closer to the top.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Joerg
genderation? quite the inventive typo...

[Glorion]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:03 AM, Joerg said:

There are few groups in Peloria that don't remember ancestors who ruled over the known world and take immense pride from that while going through their squalid oppression, selling off their children for the next meal. (Ok, at least not as the next meal...

Except that the lower classes , per Greg, have a higher standard of living than anywhere else in Glorantha, due to the Lunar Empire actually getting things organized for once, and some very useful Lunar magics. Even the slaves, if not victim to particular mistreatments, probably eat better than Orlanthi thralls.

[Thaz]

In the Beer with Teeth Glorantha we've seen Lunar forces working hard to destabilise and generally mess with both the Grazelanders and Sartar.  The Lunar high command knows there's trouble back home and there's no re-enforcement coming any time soon. So running special operations behind enemy lines to try and exploit weakness and divide the various factions against themselves makes perfect sense. It's time for ungentlemanly warfare.   Which is perfect for a Lunar Player group as a mission brief. 

You'll be on your own, deep behind enemy lines, for the glory of the empire!!

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/20/2019 at 11:29 PM, soltakss said:

Don't forget that the Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor, Yelm's Incarnation and the True emperor. he was accepted as a co-Emperor and heir to the last of the Dara Happan Emperors who preceded him.

This is what the Yelmites do every time they're conquered - "Hey, the new boss is actually the real Emperor, so it's all good and we're not actually conquered!" Then as soon as the new overlords show any weakness, it's restoration time!

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/21/2019 at 8:17 AM, davecake said:

No. The Lunar occupation [...] did not involve destroying agriculture, causing famine for millions, as a matter of policy. 

The Windstop and Long Winter, though. Not sure to what point it was expected, but I don't believe for a moment Tatius would have put things on hold if he had known what would happen. And such a practical form of Heortling genocide, too - it runs itself! That the Sartarites managed to overturn it had nothing to do with what the Lunars wanted - they would surely have been happy to have the entire area (outside the Glowline) depopulated. Taht mere one year killed something like 1/4th to 1/3rd of the population - that's way over even Holdomor levels, and on the level of the very worst starvations in the real world ever. If it's not genocide, nothing is.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Thaz]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

 And such a practical form of Heortling genocide, too - it runs itself! That the Sartarites managed to overturn it had nothing to do with what the Lunars wanted - they would surely have been happy to have the entire area (outside the Glowline) depopulated.

Not to mention there are Lunar villa/mansions (now abandoned? I've used these places for plot) scattered all over Sartar. Which would have been poised to take over agriculture and feed people allowing the destruction of Oralthi crofter/clan based systems and replacement with the Lunar model. If it wasn't for those annoying rebels and their pesky dragon then the Lunar way would have resulted in a far more efficient, peaceful and orderly place. 

Hmmm. Perhaps thats the answer to the entire 'What did the Lunars ever do for us?' We know that roads and infrastructure were already in Sartar. A green revolution of peaceful magical powered farming and organised transport would have allowed a population explosion. Whats Lunar Tarsh population wise as opposed to Sartar? Although of course there's just been a famine in Sartar...

[Thaz]

I wonder if there are granaries full in Tarsh that were waiting to relive the famine in Sartar and thus win the population to the cause.....after a few years... 

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Hmmm. Perhaps thats the answer to the entire 'What did the Lunars ever do for us?' We know that roads and infrastructure were already in Sartar. A green revolution of peaceful magical powered farming and organised transport would have allowed a population explosion. Whats Lunar Tarsh population wise as opposed to Sartar? Although of course there's just been a famine in Sartar...

I have long maintained that the Lunar Way seems to work better outside of the Heartlands. Tarsh was pretty great before the recent unpleasantness, as was Lunar Arrolia, and much of the Provinces.

1 minute ago, Thaz said:

I wonder if there are granaries full in Tarsh that were waiting to relive the famine in Sartar and thus win the population to the cause.....after a few years... 

After a few years, there wouldn't be a population. Just move in the new plantation owners and the slaves!

Edited March 2, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

If you want to believe that the Windstop and the Long Winter was the moral and practical equivalent of Shengs policies to deliberately cause famine across Peloria, I probably won't convince you otherwise. 

But the Lunars did not fully understand the Long Winter would result, and while they cynically took advantage of it, they encouraged people to avoid its worst effects through conversion to the Lunar way and Lunar friendly gods, and allowed trade etc to relieve the worst. They wanted to destroy Orlanth - but their goal was subjugation of Sartar, not the destruction of the Sartarite people. Sheng's troops effectively did the same deliberately, creating a vast famine - and then if any of the Pelorian people tried to win some relief by abasing themselves before his Pentans, mostly they laughed at them, raped and/or murdered them. And then did it again the next year, and the next. 

The Lunars under Tatius are the Lunars at their cruellest. And Sheng's troops are still worse. A good comparison is that Parg Ilisi is a notorious vicious Lunar general who acted with cruelty and severity - and to the modern Lunars he is a historical figure of shame on the whole Lunar way, repudiated by the Emperor and a story of sorrow and regret. But I think they think Sheng's people were worse than him - and probably correctly. 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Glorion said:

Except that the lower classes , per Greg, have a higher standard of living than anywhere else in Glorantha, due to the Lunar Empire actually getting things organized for once, and some very useful Lunar magics. Even the slaves, if not victim to particular mistreatments, probably eat better than Orlanthi thralls.

Not so much the lower classes - a poor slave or peasant in the Heartlands lives about the same as a poor slave or peasant anywhere, except for one thing - the Heartlands have been at peace since 1507. No civil war, no foreign invasion, etc. The Empire is reasonably well-ruled, when a satrap becomes tyrannical he or she can be replaced by the Red Emperor. Only the Lunar Heartlands and Kralorela can make any claim like that (although until 1605, the Holy Country had a comparable claim). But that run of luck has ended.

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I wonder if there are granaries full in Tarsh that were waiting to relive the famine in Sartar and thus win the population to the cause.....after a few years... 

Those granaries are helping the Tarshites deal with their own problems. 

[Glorion]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Disagree.  We had lots of fascinating campaigns where the PCs "saved" the Empire from the White Moon Heresy, Gbaji worshipping coups, malicious plots by Yolanela and other cliques, Pentan invasions, a corrupt and vicious DX Chancellor in alliance with Delecti, and misguided attempts to improve mankind.

Frankly, much more interesting than avenging a cattle raid.  It is a more "modern" take on the overall flavor, less bronze age.

Yes. In the last but one, my Natha priestess, who got suckered semi-involuntarily into becoming a Champion of DX, and then the Grand Hero of the Lunar Empire, with a lot of help from the other PC's organized a worldwide coalition of Everybody from Argrath to Delecti against the grandest chaotic menace to the very existence of Glorantha, including a successful personal meeting with Argrath to get it going (easier getting Delecti on board). And in the last campaign we were trying to deal with the extremely unfortunate consequences, with the DX head of cult who'd sponsored her turning into a truly vicious tyrant holding the Empire in an iron grip after doing in the Emperor, hand in glove with Delecti and a Zorak Zoran replacement for Jar-Eel, who had been taken over by the Grand Chaotic Menace.