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What is the proportion of Initiates among a population?


Corvantir

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So, how does the idea that someone who is an initiate is a dedicated worshipper of a deity gel with the idea that almost all Orlanthi are initiated to Orlanth or Ernalda when they enter adulthood?

Are these the same *kind* of "initiates"?

That seems to be the crux of the matter here.

I think the point is that among the Orlanthi... when the temple calls for aid... YES, most of the village or stead or whatever does show up.  I mean, female-centric for Ernalda & male-centric for Orlanth, but still.

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17 minutes ago, g33k said:

YES, most of the village or stead or whatever does show up. 

I imagine most of the village or stead shows up because that's what's expected of everybody -- even if you've never stepped into an Ernaldan ceremony, you would help the local Ernalda temple if they need it, because they're the people who bless the crops you eat, and the pregancies you have.

To me the crux of the question is more in terms of gameplay mechanics and worldbuilding -- if most Orlanthi are "initiates" (in the HQG/RQG sense of the word), then most people in the village have access to Rune magic, do regular donations to their temple, participate in worships, etc. This in turn has implications in the kind of army you can raise from a typical village, how wealthy an Orlanthi temple is, and how much magic the priests have access to (since I think lay members don't sacrifice any POW, and only give money when they need a specific service like skill/spell training, as opposed to giving a percentage of their earnings).

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8 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

are we suddenly Christians? Literally not even Jews or Muslims, who are also monotheists with similar belief structures, have any of those things

Most faiths  have  people who a re not priests who do things for the  church/temple. I just used those as examples. The actual roles filled  would vary depending on  the cult. THere ar probably initiates who clean the temple, doing maintenance and so on.

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2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Within Glorantha an initiate is a committed worshipper, the role that you expect them fulfill is the role of priest, devotees, god talkers, shamans and  to a certain extend rune lords.

So

  • A lay member is a casual or pantheistic worshipper.
  • An initiate is a committed worshipper but not usually  leader.
  • The religious leaders are Runelords, priests, shamans, etc.

However you start to get limited access to the cool magic at initiate level.


 

Except the fact they officiate kind of means they are leaders. That's where the term comes from. They're the ones who manage the sacrifices.

To try and describe how I'm seeing things.

  1. People who don't take part in worship ceremonies.
  2. People who take part in worship ceremonies.
  3. People who take part in worship ceremonies and are worshippers of that god outside of those ceremonies.
  4. People who devote themselves to the cult, lead sacrifices, and know the secrets of their god.
  5. People who manage shrines, teach magic to others, and enchant ritual objects.
  6. People who embody the god in all they do, and aren't expected to support themselves in ways other than being that bridge between the divine and mortal.

I think we're all understood on 1, 2, 5 and 6 (outsiders, lay members, and god talkers and rune priests/lords)

It becomes a problem with 3 and 4. The rules would have 3 as a Lay Member, and 4 as an Initiate, but how people seem to expect it is 3 is an initiate and 4 is a God Talker?

 

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58 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Except the fact they officiate kind of means they are leaders. That's where the term comes from. They're the ones who manage the sacrifices.

To try and describe how I'm seeing things.

  1. People who don't take part in worship ceremonies.
  2. People who take part in worship ceremonies.
  3. People who take part in worship ceremonies and are worshippers of that god outside of those ceremonies.
  4. People who devote themselves to the cult, lead sacrifices, and know the secrets of their god.
  5. People who manage shrines, teach magic to others, and enchant ritual objects.
  6. People who embody the god in all they do, and aren't expected to support themselves in ways other than being that bridge between the divine and mortal.

I think we're all understood on 1, 2, 5 and 6 (outsiders, lay members, and god talkers and rune priests/lords)

It becomes a problem with 3 and 4. The rules would have 3 as a Lay Member, and 4 as an Initiate, but how people seem to expect it is 3 is an initiate and 4 is a God Talker?

 

My view would be:

  • 2 and 3 are initiated into the cult in the sense of initiated into adulthood, i.e. they are already dedicated to a certain cult (that's why they take part in worship ceremonies and worship that god outside of those ceremonies). In normal cases they would only receive access to cult related spirit magic.
  • 4 is, what describes an Initiate (with capital I). These people are initiated (see!) into the secrets of their god, i.e. they are able to receive and use Rune Magic.
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5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

it seems glossed over.

I was being deliberately vague. But this is my bare bones approach:

Lay Member (participate, but no mysteries)

Associate Cult member (participate, but no mysteries, except if shared)

Initiate / spirit magician / spirit cult initiate (participate, with mysteries, may lead if no higher level present)

Intermediate Magic people - God talker / Assistant shaman / sorcerer (participate, with mysteries, may lead if no higher level present)

Big Magic people - Priest / Rune Lord / Shaman / Mage / Devotee (participate, with mysteries, may lead if no higher level present) (May have a HeroQuest presence)

Senior Big Magic people ranks - Chief Priest / High Priest / Head of a school / Shaman heading a spirit society (participate, with mysteries, always lead when present) (Have a HeroQuest presence)

Heros (participate, with mysteries, always lead when present) (Are somewhat established on the Heroplane)

Huge Magic People (heroes) - (participate, with mysteries, always lead when present)(Are established on the Heroplane)

Mega Magic People - are the cult / movement (are the object of the mysteries, may lead when present) (Argrath / Jar-eel / Red Emperor / other big counters in DP) (are more on the Heroplane than not, transcendent)

I've likely missed a few titles out.

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55 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Except the fact they officiate kind of means they are leaders. That's where the term comes from. They're the ones who manage the sacrifices.

To try and describe how I'm seeing things.

  1. People who don't take part in worship ceremonies.
  2. People who take part in worship ceremonies.
  3. People who take part in worship ceremonies and are worshippers of that god outside of those ceremonies.
  4. People who devote themselves to the cult, lead sacrifices, and know the secrets of their god.
  5. People who manage shrines, teach magic to others, and enchant ritual objects.
  6. People who embody the god in all they do, and aren't expected to support themselves in ways other than being that bridge between the divine and mortal.

I think we're all understood on 1, 2, 5 and 6 (outsiders, lay members, and god talkers and rune priests/lords)

It becomes a problem with 3 and 4. The rules would have 3 as a Lay Member, and 4 as an Initiate, but how people seem to expect it is 3 is an initiate and 4 is a God Talker?

 

My take is that imposing a single framework doesn't allow for the various national traditions and religious customs that adorn the lozenge. 

Consider how different RW religions are, and how their subordinate groupings vary within the one faith, dependent on nation, history, doctrine, and local resource availability. (The Talmudic discussion on which oils may be used in different countries is fascinating.) 

Initiate status indicates how that cult defines an individual who has a special relationship with the deity, yet doesn't have the single-minded approach and dedication and divine access of the devotee. 

Nice as the structure is, I am convinced Tindalos is a God-Learner, and must be shunned with great prejudice ☣️😁

 

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Let's put it this way- is it at all credible to believe that for, say, the Issaries cult, that there's a substantial amount of people who are just "lay members of the Issaries cult"? Or the Humakt cult? For those cults, we recognize pretty obviously that everyone involved in the cult on a regular basis is an "initiate", someone who is dedicated to the god involved, and the lay members of the ceremonies are the people of the community that the initiates belong to, who participate in the ceremonies of the accepted gods without dedicating themselves to said gods. 

And on another level, passing into adulthood, or citizenship, or similar, is "initiation" as you learn the secret knowledge necessary to enter into the new community, such as by discovering that you have a Star Heart or whatever. 

We also have fairly firm statements that Sartar is the "Kingdom of Heroes", in large part because the use of overt divine magic is common there (and by implication, uncommon elsewhere!) 

So, with that in mind, is contact with the Otherside then something that, in general, only 1% or so of the population ever experiences, and the remaining 99% only glimpses it in sacred ceremonies or sometimes receives blessings secondhand? 

Obviously, put like this, it sounds vaguely distasteful, and you could argue that everyone has access to magic via spirit magic, battle magic, common magic, talents, whatever you want to call it. That's not necessarily an argument I want to have, because in the end it's mostly aesthetic. Rather, what would it take to reconcile these things, such that the Otherside is close enough to taste for even the most miserable and downtrodden, and yet at the same time, places like Sartar or Loskalm are extraordinarily magical places, fairly crackling with currents of power? 

One solution is that Sartarites are relatively unique in that their rites of passage directly connect you to Orlanth and Ernalda without the benefit of any intervening masks or emanations or ancestors. In other words, in, say, Wenelia, your typical masculine Solanthi will be initiated into adulthood through their Solanth rites, whatever those are, which in some way reflect the Pit of the Strange Gods initiation of Orlanth without being the wholesale thing, and then the vast majority will comes out an "Initiate of Solanth", in RQ terms, with access to whatever limited Rune Magic that grants, and then they'll approach Orlanth through more minor faces and gain specialized Rune Magic without the broad general-purpose magic going for Orlanth Adventurous or Orlanth Thunderous gives you. 

And then it's only dedicated people who go further and into direct contact with the greater gods. 

What does this mean in rule terms? I have a very limited idea- to a large extent, I think it's honestly outside of rules entirely. If you're making a PC, you're either already playing an exceptional person who's going straight for channeling the full god into themselves, or you've agreed to play regular Orlmarths and Vasanas and thus would be forebearing the flashy stuff regardless. And as far as NPCs go, it can be handled by guidelines which say, "ordinary NPCs from these cultures have limited Rune Magic, select from these options or make up your own, with no more than X spells available", etc. 

Some immediate objections I can see: 

1. Doesn't this just bring back the Heroquest 1E model of infinite subcults, which everyone agrees is not representative of Gloranthan reality? 

My answer is that this is certainly a risk, but that the main difference I see is that the Gloranthan model I am trying to produce here is one where contact with the numinous world is ordinary to the point where it occurs via naturalized, ritualized invocations, leaving the world of creative play with the divine and the spiritual and the essential for PCs and their opposite numbers. In other words, a place where magic is rich and part of daily life and the strange and wonderful is right around the corner, but also one where people try desperately to shape and confine the strange and wonderful to keep themselves safe. And thus, the PCs, as part of the Hero Wars, are tearing apart the old order just by being their lovable selves and tossing Thunderbolts at sassy bandits or Mindblasting insolent innkeepers. 

2. Why doesn't everyone live like Sartarites? What causes people to fall away from deep contact with the divine? 

Apart from the social benefits of not having to worry about people summoning elementals or tossing lightning from hand to hand during arguments about where one hide begins and another ends, I would suggest that the primary cause of this is a cycle of stasis and motion, wherein people develop a rigid approach of contact with the Otherside that allows it to be more consistent and less dangerous, which leads to contact via safer masks and hypostases, which in turn eventually leads other people to attempt to deal with their own alienation via seeking out a deeper, higher power. And then before you know it, you're leading people in Waltzing and Hunting Bands or instructing an unearthly child as she instructs you or minutely examining a fancy picture book for the clues about creation you are sure it must contain. 

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6 minutes ago, Eff said:

Let's put it this way- is it at all credible to believe that for, say, the Issaries cult, that there's a substantial amount of people who are just "lay members of the Issaries cult"? Or the Humakt cult? For those cults, we recognize pretty obviously that everyone involved in the cult on a regular basis is an "initiate", someone who is dedicated to the god involved, and the lay members of the ceremonies are the people of the community that the initiates belong to, who participate in the ceremonies of the accepted gods without dedicating themselves to said gods.

Sure. There's a good example in the Adventure Booklet with the GM's screen of the keeper of the Tin Inn only being a lay member of Issaries. And of course in cities, the cult of Issaries also acts as the basis for guilds. If you want to sell things in a city, you're going to want to be a member, and I doubt they'd insist on initiation into his secrets just to sell at a stall.

30 minutes ago, David Scott said:

<snip a lot of helpful things>

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense.

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17 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Eff asks whether it is credible that there are many lay members of Issaries or Humakt. The answer is a definite yes if the RW is our model. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Tindalos said:

Sure. There's a good example in the Adventure Booklet with the GM's screen of the keeper of the Tin Inn only being a lay member of Issaries. And of course in cities, the cult of Issaries also acts as the basis for guilds. If you want to sell things in a city, you're going to want to be a member, and I doubt they'd insist on initiation into his secrets just to sell at a stall.

Thank you, this makes a lot of sense.

90% of the population is rural, and the craft guild members would probably identify more strongly with the gods of their particular craft than with the Talking God who blesses the guild structure, so that in particular still fits well with my assumption that "lay member" describes people associated with different but still related gods rather than a distinct indifferently religious population. More broadly, though, does it make sense for every major cult to have a penumbra of specific lay members many times the size of the initiated? Especially for the "profession" cults which are fairly narrow in focus, like Humakt or Babeester Gor? 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

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12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

To my mind that is a false distinction they are one and the same. I challenge you a good range of adults to show stated in official publications whoa re not initiates, intiiatehood is near universal in adult Orlanthi society.

This is precisely because I have a lot of doubt about that I have submitted this thread. I am as much interested in sources as I am in the posters' views on this subject.

 

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

The differences in other religion is possible and may fit, but its never been explicitly stated by anyone anywhere, YGMV but to claim that what glorantha is like doesn't reflect the wider held position.

I am not trying to make a claim. In my post, the sentence "All this sounds good to me of course" was meant to clearly stand for: "this is something that should do the trick for ME", for me as a game master in charge of preping adventures for my players in MY Glorantha. I should have been clearer about that instead of suggesting it. I honestly thought it was obvious.

By sharing my opinion on the Initiates ratio, I am just inviting people to post what they are thinking about it or to think about it for they own game if this is useful to them. This is in no way meant to be a truth.

All my sources are stated in the first post by the way.   ;)

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

IMHO the widespread nature of magic in Glorantha is a key component in what makes the world so unique & special.  To demystify the world and reduce magic to begin something that isn't common is not in keeping with the spirit of the world. Also to make the players a powerful subset of the population again seems to break the world view I have.

As far as magic is concerned, I agree with you. It is everywhere, the world itself is magical. The simple link the people have with the runes is magical. In RQ2/3 and HQG, Lay Members can have spells (powers as Rune breakout abilities in HQG), so magic is not limited to Initiates. As far as I am concerned, the debate about the proportion of Initiates is not about the proportion of magic in the world. Unless I get it wrong, magic is everywhere and everyone can use magic in Glorantha.

I understand your concern about players being a powerful subset of the population.

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2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Except the fact they officiate kind of means they are leaders. That's where the term comes from. They're the ones who manage the sacrifices.

To try and describe how I'm seeing things.

  1. People who don't take part in worship ceremonies.
  2. People who take part in worship ceremonies.
  3. People who take part in worship ceremonies and are worshippers of that god outside of those ceremonies.
  4. People who devote themselves to the cult, lead sacrifices, and know the secrets of their god.
  5. People who manage shrines, teach magic to others, and enchant ritual objects.
  6. People who embody the god in all they do, and aren't expected to support themselves in ways other than being that bridge between the divine and mortal.

I think we're all understood on 1, 2, 5 and 6 (outsiders, lay members, and god talkers and rune priests/lords)

It becomes a problem with 3 and 4. The rules would have 3 as a Lay Member, and 4 as an Initiate, but how people seem to expect it is 3 is an initiate and 4 is a God Talker?

 

I don't know where you have got the idea from that initiates lead sacrifices and ceremonies, I've reread the rules and its just not there. It read it likes its Possible but it would not be usual.

Initiates can sacrifice power and are expected to sacrifice magic points, but its usually someone higher up leading the worship.

Id don't think your structure reflects how runequest lays it out.

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37 minutes ago, Eff said:

is it at all credible to believe that for, say, the Issaries cult, that there's a substantial amount of people who are just "lay members of the Issaries cult"?

Harst has a surprisingly broad reach but I digress into spoilers and minutia.

The exciting thing about cult ecology is the way different theologies emphasize different levels of the Tindalos Religious Pyramid. Some are narrow because their epiphanies are abstract or they are actively fastidious, refusing casual affiliation so "lay members" are limited to people preparing for initiation. Others enjoy a broader footprint so most of their people are Tindalos 2 types.

Orlanth in Orlanth territory is interesting because levels 2 and 3 are usually conflated and there's a lot of overlap toward 4. It's an egalitarian society with few intermediaries to act as spiritual chokepoints. Most people can talk to god and actively participate in the work of the world. Few may have the kind of deeper understanding (kate bush reference) that turns into spells, but who really knows if that's what matters.

Anywhere you get a lumpen underclass will have more lowlies farmed for magic points serving as the audience in the rites important people perform. In some places this may actually look something like "Barntar," with a lot of lay congregants and few initiates or bigger magic people. In others, Harst or one of the lodrils. But this also verges on puppeteer mystery.

 

 

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

To me the crux of the question is more in terms of gameplay mechanics and worldbuilding -- if most Orlanthi are "initiates" (in the HQG/RQG sense of the word), then most people in the village have access to Rune magic, do regular donations to their temple, participate in worships, etc. This in turn has implications in the kind of army you can raise from a typical village, how wealthy an Orlanthi temple is, and how much magic the priests have access to (since I think lay members don't sacrifice any POW, and only give money when they need a specific service like skill/spell training, as opposed to giving a percentage of their earnings).

As far as I am concerned, I submitted my initial post in a worldbuiding and preping adventures perspective in mind. Whatever the game system, it is important to know rather or not an NPC is an Initiate and of what god, at least for roleplaying the NPC.

Edited by Corvantir
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49 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

I don't know where you have got the idea from that initiates lead sacrifices and ceremonies, I've reread the rules and its just not there. It read it likes its Possible but it would not be usual.

Initiates can sacrifice power and are expected to sacrifice magic points, but its usually someone higher up leading the worship.

Id don't think your structure reflects how runequest lays it out.

RQ:G page 269.

"A cult consists of worshipers and a hierarchy. The hierarchy officiates at sacrifices and acts as the intermediaries between the worshipers and the deity. The hierarchy gains magical power (and a good living), the god gets power from the sacrifices, and the worshipers get whatever the hierarchy feels obliged to give them."

"A deity responds to requests from its Rune Priests, Rune Lords, God-Talkers, shamans, and initiates that officiate at sacrifices."

"A god usually ignores requests made by its ordinary worshipers because: (1) they do not officiate at sacrifices"

Officiate means to lead. Initiates are not labelled as worshippers there, but as within the inner members of the hierarchy. Initiates act as intermediaries between lay members and the gods. Middle management, if you will.

 

47 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The exciting thing about cult ecology is the way different theologies emphasize different levels of the Tindalos Religious Pyramid. Some are narrow because their epiphanies are abstract or they are actively fastidious, refusing casual affiliation so "lay members" are limited to people preparing for initiation. Others enjoy a broader footprint so most of their people are Tindalos 2 types.

Tindalos Religious Pyramid? Hah! I like it.

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1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:

I don't know where you have got the idea from that initiates lead sacrifices and ceremonies, I've reread the rules and its just not there. It read it likes its Possible but it would not be usual.

In HQG, the Priests are Initiates that lead sacrifices and ceremonies. I suppose that an Initiate can do so if there is no Priest around, but it is a Priest's duty to do so as I understand it.

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1 hour ago, Eff said:

 

90% of the population is rural, and the craft guild members would probably identify more strongly with the gods of their particular craft than with the Talking God who blesses the guild structure, so that in particular still fits well with my assumption that "lay member" describes people associated with different but still related gods rather than a distinct indifferently religious population. More broadly, though, does it make sense for every major cult to have a penumbra of specific lay members many times the size of the initiated? Especially for the "profession" cults which are fairly narrow in focus, like Humakt or Babeester Gor? 

Sorry, but yes it does.  If you rely on a Judaeo-Christian-Islamic model, maybe not.  Try Hindu or Shinto for alternative models that do match it.

However, I don't think that you can justify calling Babeester Gor a major cult.  Professional yes, major no. 

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4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

It becomes a problem with 3 and 4. The rules would have 3 as a Lay Member, and 4 as an Initiate, but how people seem to expect it is 3 is an initiate and 4 is a God Talker?

I would say both 3 and 4 are Initiate. Leading a sacrifice is probably fairly common throughout Sartar if you consider things like a single family/household gathering around the house elder to sacrifice an animal in the barn and say a few prayers to a God/ancestor/family spirit/etc. We're talking about a ceremony that only involves a dozen people on average. Not everything has to be a fancy affair in a temple.

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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In my opinion, an adult Orlanthi man is almost certainly an "initiate" of Orlanth (whatever subcult, doesn't matter). He is given a certain kind of insight into the mysteries of Orlanth, and could - hypothetically - channel some of the might of Orlanth through him. The same would go for an adult Orlanthi woman. The social structure of the Orlanthi require initiation into these cults to attain the status of adulthood - and I personally interpret this as actually being active members of the cult, but this does not mean priesthood in our modern institutionalized sense of the word.

If the rules say that initiates officiate at ceremonies, then fair enough. 

However, most ACTUAL ceremonies in "Orlanthism" are fairly small, local stead-affairs, aren't they? 

Here's my opinion: the head of the stead, along with other adult males will be able to officiate their own local offerings and rituals. Fairly minor stuff, akin to the household cults of the Romans, the family blot of Norse paganism, or the family ceremonies of Hinduism (no Brahmins or other temple officials needed) (family in this case being the extended family and others of the household, so potentially a dozen people or maybe a few dozen even), or the family worship of Chinese folk religion. Pick and choose, this mode of religious worship centred on the pater and mater familias (or landowner/land-holder) is incredibly common in polytheism. It makes the family heads sort-of-pseudo-priests, but only within the context of their own family unit.

Expert cults perhaps work a bit differently, as they exist in Orlanthi custom more or less as associates and supporters of the Orlanth-Ernalda "ideal family/gods-as-the-family-analogue" model. They might lead local ceremonies, or they might be limited to helping out in their own subcult ceremonies. I'm not sure what the rules specify.

But big temple stuff? Clan stuff? No, that's the area of chiefs and priests and god-talkers and whatever else terms the books use. 

I don't know if such a distinction in scale is made in the rules books, but it seems pretty self-evident in the Orlanthi social structure to me.

Just my $0.02.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Sorry, but yes it does.  If you rely on a Judaeo-Christian-Islamic model, maybe not.  Try Hindu or Shinto for alternative models that do match it.

However, I don't think that you can justify calling Babeester Gor a major cult.  Professional yes, major no. 

Shinto doesn't really have that penumbral lay-and-initiated relationship, though? Miko and kannushi also are only debatably god-talkers/theists in Gloranthan terms, given the highly propitiatory feature of much Shinto practice...

I mean, she is consistently described as one of the major gods and her cult has representatives at every Earth temple at a minimum. So she's at least as widespread as dedicated Water and Fire cults, I think. 

Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

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8 hours ago, Tindalos said:

RQ:G page 269.

"A cult consists of worshipers and a hierarchy. The hierarchy officiates at sacrifices and acts as the intermediaries between the worshipers and the deity. The hierarchy gains magical power (and a good living), the god gets power from the sacrifices, and the worshipers get whatever the hierarchy feels obliged to give them."

"A deity responds to requests from its Rune Priests, Rune Lords, God-Talkers, shamans, and initiates that officiate at sacrifices."

"A god usually ignores requests made by its ordinary worshipers because: (1) they do not officiate at sacrifices"

Officiate means to lead. Initiates are not labelled as worshippers there, but as within the inner members of the hierarchy. Initiates act as intermediaries between lay members and the gods. Middle management, if you will.

Hi,
that bit refers to whole structure/hierarchy of the cult and references everything from initiates though priests and to rune lords.  To extrapolate what it means specifically for initiates possibly isn't the best bit of RQG to use. 

It suggest the sections in 274 -275 specifically about Initiates give a clearer picture.

Jon

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14 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

So, how does the idea that someone who is an initiate is a dedicated worshipper of a deity gel with the idea that almost all Orlanthi are initiated to Orlanth or Ernalda when they enter adulthood?

Are these the same *kind* of "initiates"?

That seems to be the crux of the matter here.

25 years ago, we (especially Alex Ferguson and myself) debated about this very problem on the RQ Daily...

First off, the last time I looked, Orlanth and Ernalda are deities, and have plenty dedicated worshippers. Thunder Rebels attempted to make that "meh, another initiate of Orlanth" into something fun and individual, and lost itself in the labyrinths of subcultitis. RuneQuest never had this.

Initiates of other deities than Orlanth and Ernalda make up one in seven of the adult Orlanthi initiates. Male Esrolians have significantly less worshipers of Orlanth as we know him, although Orlanth/Barntar remains the cult with probably more than half the male population of Esrolia, and Orlanth the non-plowing shepherder having another significant portion. So maybe twice the number of non-Orlanth initiated males.

I still don't have any clue to the amount of Daka Fal "initiates" who may make up a significant portion of the "non-initiates". Where Praxian Beast Nomads appear to have one in three adults following Daka Fal more or less exclusively, what is the proportion in Sartar or Esrolia, or are they included in the Orlanth and Ernalda initiates?

Does the soul link to a rune deity (like Orlanth, Ernalda, Issaries or Humakt) overwrite the access to Daka Fal's magic? But then Biturian was able to use the spirit gift of the Baboon shaman.

My old case for "Low Initiation" following the RuneQuest examples of Yelm the Youth and Aldrya's Children of the Forest creates a semi-initiation. Membership in a city cult or a regimental cult, or one's relation to a clan wyter.

In the RuneQuest terms under which the 1994 discussion was held, the POW donation was a major issue to me. The POW went into creating (and defining) the spiritual/magical "organ" through which the individual's magic interacts with the Other Side, and the first imprinting of this in the adulthood rites is a big step towards rune magic, shamanism or sorcery.

With sorcery acceptable in a sleuth of cults outside of Orlanth and Ernalda, it looks like the imprinting prevents sorcery if done through the full Heortling initiation, but allows it if you don't come out of the adulthood rites as initiate of the cultural deity.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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