What is the proportion of Initiates among a population?

[g33k]

12 hours ago, Eff said:

Let's put it this way- is it at all credible to believe that for, say, the Issaries cult, that there's a substantial amount of people who are just "lay members of the Issaries cult"? 

 

I would suggest that very many shopkeepers / retailers are Initiates, but that the "primary producers" -- farmers who sell crops, smiths selling metalwares, weavers selling cloth, etc -- are at least Lay Members of Issaries or Etyries.  They sell, bargain, etc; and do it rather a lot.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Tindalos said:

A deity responds to requests from its Rune Priests, Rune Lords, God-Talkers, shamans, and initiates that officiate at sacrifices."

"A god usually ignores requests made by its ordinary worshipers because: (1) they do not officiate at sacrifices"

Officiate means to lead. Initiates are not labelled as worshippers there, but as within the inner members of the hierarchy. Initiates act as intermediaries between lay members and the gods. Middle management, if you will.

Conducting a sacrifice before a major undertaking is common in theist culture. The person officiating it will often be a chief, war-leader, or other person of authority, without any higher cult rank. If the sacrifices are to a cult that this person doesn't belong to, the person will appoint a stand-in (like Temertain did for the Storm Bull rites of Boldhome in 1614).

Temertain might be a good example here. As Prince of Sartar, his role is to officiate or oversee plenty a sacrifice. As an initiated of Lhankor Mhy and Orlanth Rex, there are a number of sacrifices which he can officiate or delegate, and there are others which he only can delegate.

Also: "usually ignores" doesn't mean "always ignores". Contact a deity or similar entity with sufficient sacrifice and pomp, and it may grant magic or blessings. The God Learners even proved that such an entity may be created out of whole cloth (but then, the reign of Avanadpur served as a mythical precedent).

2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

that bit refers to whole structure/hierarchy of the cult and references everything from initiates though priests and to rune lords.  To extrapolate what it means specifically for initiates possibly isn't the best bit of RQG to use.

IMO there is a meta-rule that in order to conduct the worship, the officiating person needs to have developed the spiritual organ that connects them with the deity on the Other Side to transmit the energies of the sacrifice (which is the experience which warrants the POW gain roll in RQ).

Theyalan theism has a huge proportion of DIY approach, whereas Pelorian theism has the overseer and the sacrificer in two different roles.

 

[Ali the Helering]

10 hours ago, Eff said:

 

I mean, she is consistently described as one of the major gods and her cult has representatives at every Earth temple at a minimum. So she's at least as widespread as dedicated Water and Fire cults, I think. 

In terms of importance, yes, cult members, less likely given her attitude. 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

In terms of importance, yes, cult members, less likely given her attitude. 

AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH HER ATTITUDE, HUH, HUH, HUH? WHAT?

[Ali the Helering]

18 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH HER ATTITUDE, HUH, HUH, HUH? WHAT?

Nothing, nothing at all!  Have some more blood beer while I move slowly and carefully away from your axe edge.... 😩

[Corvantir]

3 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Hi,
that bit refers to whole structure/hierarchy of the cult and references everything from initiates though priests and to rune lords.  To extrapolate what it means specifically for initiates possibly isn't the best bit of RQG to use.

The whole structure is specifically what I am trying to have a better picture on. Since precise informations are not available, we must extrapolate from what we have.

 

3 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

It suggest the sections in 274 -275 specifically about Initiates give a clearer picture.

This section gives a better picture of the cult status themselves and the attached duties but it does not give any hint on the number of Initiates or Lay Members in a given culture or territory. It is more or less the same in HQG, though with more abstractions and less hard numbers than in RQG. It is not stated that an Initiate must spend 1/10th of its time to the cult, for example.

The reason I submitted this thread can be summed up in this sentence: "Initiation into a cult is a serious step, for individuals pledge themselves body and soul to the deity" (HQG, page 143). From my own perspective, which is shaped and warped by my western european culture, education and so called modern society, this is not something everyone, can do, can assume or even want. Hence the question, how does it translate into a fictional regional bronze age culture in which individuals have a vastly different mindset? This is where I have some trouble to figure things out. Moreover, when it comes to gaming, and Glorantha in general, I like to know how things are supposed to be before changing and shaping them. I am far better at adapting things than at creating them. Many of us can create things from thin air without any problem, I can't. I need to wrap my head around a notion before being able to make something of it.

I agree with you that it somehow breaks the magic of the setting. But I would reply that I need to break the magic down in order to bring it back into the game. I can't share a vision if I can't figure out what I am trying to describe. In the same spirit, I believe it is not possible to learn something you don't understand. When I read RPG books, I am a reader and a game master. The reader in me muses with the setting, wonders at the imaginary regions, cultures, magics and societies. The game master in me must figure out how it works in order to prep adventures and bring the wonders of the setting at the table.

Sorry if it seems like I am ranting, but I think it is important for this thread, and perhaps for many others, to understand that we all have a specific way to solve a problem and thus specific needs in order to do so. Different needs for different way of thinking.

OK, I am ranting...

[Tindalos]

 

13 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I would say both 3 and 4 are Initiate. Leading a sacrifice is probably fairly common throughout Sartar if you consider things like a single family/household gathering around the house elder to sacrifice an animal in the barn and say a few prayers to a God/ancestor/family spirit/etc. We're talking about a ceremony that only involves a dozen people on average. Not everything has to be a fancy affair in a temple.

 

12 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

However, most ACTUAL ceremonies in "Orlanthism" are fairly small, local stead-affairs, aren't they? 

Here's my opinion: the head of the stead, along with other adult males will be able to officiate their own local offerings and rituals. Fairly minor stuff, akin to the household cults of the Romans, the family blot of Norse paganism, or the family ceremonies of Hinduism (no Brahmins or other temple officials needed) (family in this case being the extended family and others of the household, so potentially a dozen people or maybe a few dozen even), or the family worship of Chinese folk religion. Pick and choose, this mode of religious worship centred on the pater and mater familias (or landowner/land-holder) is incredibly common in polytheism. It makes the family heads sort-of-pseudo-priests, but only within the context of their own family unit.

I'd say the family leader as ritualist makes a lot of sense. Each family/household/stead being run by one Orlanth-ritualist and Ernalda-ritualist (type 4s) who perform the household sacrifices, remember the cult lore, and act as Orlanth and Ernalda did with their families (who are type 3s.) (Which I'd go back to the 1 in 10 number I'd gone with, regardless of terms.)

 

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Hi,
that bit refers to whole structure/hierarchy of the cult and references everything from initiates though priests and to rune lords.  To extrapolate what it means specifically for initiates possibly isn't the best bit of RQG to use. 

It suggest the sections in 274 -275 specifically about Initiates give a clearer picture.

Jon

While that is also important, and certainly 285 only says they "perform a role" in cult rituals without being specific as to what that means, I see this as less extrapolate and more "using what it says about initiates there where it has them officiating and relying on that for their connection to the gods."

 

29 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

OK, I am ranting...

That's how you can tell you're fitting in perfectly.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Tindalos

[Mirza]

I think that Vasana's Saga is actually rather helpful in looking at what the roles of Initiates are within Orlanthi religious ceremonies, specifically the segment on page 245 of RQG. I'll quote a few excerpts about how the ceremony is laid out, the bits in parenthesis are my own commentary.

"I (Vasana, an Initiate) was part of the outer circle of dancers, singers, and musicians." "Outside of the circle formed by our dance, others (Initiates) guarded the ceremony." "Yanioth and Harmast were outside the circle,  along with the other lay members and those who wished to offer gifts to Orlanth but did not know his inner secrets." "Within the center of the dancing circle, the priests and lords made a smaller circle" "We rejoiced as we felt our lungs filled with Orlanth’s power."

Vasana wasn't a leading officiant herself, but the narration makes it quite clear that she renewed her connection to Orlanth. So clearly we can see that while Initiates are an active part of a ceremony, they are not necessarily always the leading officiants when more capable holy people are present, though I certainly think that an Initiate is capable of officiating if the situation requires it.

As for what defines what an Initiate is, this section of Vasana's Saga makes it rather clear, an Initiate is a person who knows a gods Inner Secrets, and in so knowing wields their gods powers (and becomes the god to an extent), that is what defines an Initiate. The Man's Breath, the Woman's True Self, the Starheart, these are just a few of the Inner Secrets of Orlanth and Ernalda that we have names for, there are more for these gods and others that have been yet to be named.

I think that for the most part a temple giving the rank of Initiate is far more about recognizing that the worshiper knows the gods Inner Secrets than it is about a strict hierarchy, though I feel that some temples are certainly willing to make Initiates not from that temple work to earn that recognition.

I don't think that 2 on your list of kinds of worshipers actually exists in Glorantha, @Tindalos. I think it's purely an artifact of the modern mindset that there is the idea of going to worship ceremonies, and then not worshiping outside said ceremonies. The whole Christians going to church on Christmas and Easter only would seem strange and foreign to the Orlanthi, it's a mindset that's a product of a specific kind of monotheism where the divine cannot be contacted outside a particular and exclusive theistic class. Not like Glorantha where the divine is here, can be felt, and lived by everyone so you give worship to where it is due, even if you do not know the Inner Secrets of that god.

If anything the opposite is more likely to be true, there are worshipers that worship outside the context of ceremonies, and just never get around to going to the ceremonies. The Issaries lay person that pays their tithe to use the market, worship the god, but never actually head over to the temple during the ceremony. I feel that kind of Lay Member is a far likely than someone who goes to the gods ceremonies and doesn't worship outside of them.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Mirza

[Tindalos]

6 hours ago, Mirza said:

I don't think that 2 on your list of kinds of worshipers actually exists in Glorantha, @Tindalos. I think it's purely an artifact of the modern mindset that there is the idea of going to worship ceremonies, and then not worshiping outside said ceremonies. The whole Christians going to church on Christmas and Easter only would seem strange and foreign to the Orlanthi, it's a mindset that's a product of a specific kind of monotheism where the divine cannot be contacted outside a particular and exclusive theistic class. Not like Glorantha where the divine is here, can be felt, and lived by everyone so you give worship to where it is due, even if you do not know the Inner Secrets of that god.

It's not intended to show holiday-only worshippers, but for those whose cults are more restrictive.

Humakt, Babeester Gor, or Lhankor Mhy for instance. Where when they hold holy days, people will still join in the ceremonies as lay members (or similar to the "communal worshippers" in HQ1) outside of those ceremonies, most people wouldn't count themselves as members, as they're not death-dealers/apprentice scribes.

6 hours ago, Mirza said:

If anything the opposite is more likely to be true, there are worshipers that worship outside the context of ceremonies, and just never get around to going to the ceremonies. The Issaries lay person that pays their tithe to use the market, worship the god, but never actually head over to the temple during the ceremony. I feel that kind of Lay Member is a far likely than someone who goes to the gods ceremonies and doesn't worship outside of them.

I'm less certain about that one. Especially since religious worship is typically communal, I would feel anyone avoiding the weekly cult worship to do other things and still claim to be a member would be looked on as strange at best. Also since Issaries' holy day is marketday, and their temple is the market, it would be hard to really avoid that.

[Akhôrahil]

It’s pretty clear from published sources that the Average Joe Orlanthi is an initiate. Basically every even herder or duck in published adventures is an initiate at least.

But also note that this is considered unusual for most Gloranthans. Your average Pelorian is likely not initiated (leave that for the professionals!), and let’s not even get started on Westerners...

This wide but poorly organized access to magic is what Argrath taps into, and is perhaps the most important reason why tiny Sartar can go up against the Lunars in the first place.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

This raises another question - about how many Rune Points does an average Orlanthi have access to? Going by character creation, it would go from three at age 20 to twelve at age 50, but this is likely PC levels and not what regular people have access to. Society would be far weirder if the average household packed dozens of points of Rune magic, I believe.

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This raises another question - about how many Rune Points does an average Orlanthi have access to? Going by character creation, it would go from three at age 20 to twelve at age 50, but this is likely PC levels and not what regular people have access to. Society would be far weirder if the average household packed dozens of points of Rune magic, I believe.

Well then that leaves it at one or two on average for a young adult Joe Orlanth seeing as an initiate needs one 1RP at least to join and 3 is a little extraordinary... adventurous, dare I say, ... perhaps instead of 12 at the age of 50 we create a ratio of old Joe Orlanth having at least a  third up to two thirds of the Joey Adventurous’  RPs` so... 4 or 8 at that same age of 50... 

And of course, for important NPCs I will cusomize the stats to meet the story’s need.

Cheers

Edited December 27, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
clarity

[Darius West]

There are an awful lot of variables in this question.  We aren't dealing with a single culture, or a single cult.  What can we say that will genuinely cover all peoples in all times?

I think that a good part of the problem we are facing is that the position of the lay member is an ambiguous one.  We have a really good idea of the value and role of initiates, but lay membership, while it seems simple, is odd.  The term itself comes from Catholicism and originally etymologically from Greek, and describes a relationship with religion that is perhaps unusually specific to that religious situation.  A layman is a common secular member of Catholicism, and that in itself is a culturally loaded idea.

Now who in Glorantha make up the lay membership?  Well, in Orlanthi culture, most will be the children of the tribe.  You will also get some adults who see advantage in a non-formal standing in worshipping some deities such as Harst.  For the most part, the tribe understands that it needs initiates, and that the more people who are initiates of their gods, the more powerful they become as a tribe.

This won't be true of sorcery societies for the most part.  It is difficult to learn sorcery, and it requires membership in a caste, literacy, and  plenty of studying time to gradually gain proficiency over years.  As a result, most people of sorcery societies will likely be lay members who derive their magic from their patron saint, and perhaps from a sorcerer gifting them with spell spirits.

Shamanic cults are likely to be more exclusive in their membership than Theistic cults.  They are far more likely to have a lot of lay members, and sometimes those lay members will never become initiates, as the cult doesn't offer that status, and is inclined to go from lay membership, not to initiate, but to apprentice sorcerer, which most members won't ever qualify for.  So why do the lay members participate in ceremonies?  Well, the shaman needs them to maintain the shrine to the major spirit of the cult so the shaman can get access to unusual rune magic, and will repay the lay members by gifting them spirit magic spells to keep up attendance.

Remember too that there used to be rules regarding temple size on p284 of RQ: RiG.  You can't get even 1 point of Rune Magic granted unless your local shrine has 75 lay members and initiates.  This can make life tricky if you happen to worship a comparatively minor deity like Urox but your tribe doesn't maintain a shrine to him, and your nearest place of worship is in the lands of a relatively hostile nearby tribe, and you aren't known for your good manners because you are an Uroxi.

Now let's ask some difficult questions. 

Does an initiate who doesn't pay their tithe fall back to being a lay member?  No, as they have communed directly with the deity, and that experience can't be taken away, save by an excommunication ritual. Instead they are merely likely to be unable to regain their Rune Magic points as the priest will insist on payment in full before letting them back in to the temple.

What happens to someone who breaks their cult geas?  Do they get turfed from their cult?  In Humakt, there is nothing to say you lose anything but the associated gift.  In Yelmalio however (from memory) breaking one's geases is enough to invoke Monrogh, the spirit of retribution, who will either reclaim the gift after beating you in spirit combat, or you win, keep the gift, but get turfed from the cult. That in itself would make for a fascinating character backstory.  In Irish cults, geases were akin to a death prophecy, laid by druids, and when broken it was time for the individual to prepare for their death which would soon follow.

It is also worth pointing out that Harst is a lay membership of Issaries that lies between lay member and initiate, appropriate to communities where trade is infrequent.  What that means is that the Harst worshipper only gets to worship when their Garzeen priest arrives on their yearly or bi-annual trip into the hinterlands where the Harst worshipper lives.  There is no reason to suppose that there aren't similar situations for other cults that are simply less commented upon in the write-ups.  Consider the isolated Uroxi from the previous example, and how common that situation might be.

It is worth pointing out that Mythras has a different take on worship, where characters don't need a temple, but use their skills in Devotion and Exhortation to interact with their deity, and only join cults in order to deepen their knowledge of the deity and to benefit from an association of like-minded individuals.  If you find the notion of a shrine needing 75 worshippers to grant rune magic, then consider Mythras' approach as an alternative perhaps? 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Darius West

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This raises another question - about how many Rune Points does an average Orlanthi have access to? Going by character creation, it would go from three at age 20 to twelve at age 50, but this is likely PC levels and not what regular people have access to. Society would be far weirder if the average household packed dozens of points of Rune magic, I believe.

Despite this being the Glorantha rather than the RQ forum, I'll argue from the RQ rules here.

Under RQ3, the assumption was that farmers would sacrfice for non-reusable Bless Crops or similar blessings and stack them onto what their priests and acolytes (who were the only ones with access to reusable Rune Spells) could manage to churn out.

RQ2 had the same mechanisms but didn't provide much consideration for the farmer's life and livelihood. It was first and foremost an adventuring game, and that probably explains its greater popularity. RQ3 Gamemasters Book with its guide to world creation was a big step forward for the RQ system, and one completely absent from any RQ2 product I have seen. Only one of the very last RQ2 publications, the RQ Companion, introduced/established widespread Barntar worship for Esrolia and Heortland, but only as setting information, without any rules support like a cult write-up. Griffin Mountain comes a short step this way, but the setting only allows pig herding, hunting and gathering as primary production activities, maybe some gardening, but no effective farming.

RQG is trying to cater to the RQ2 vibe in terms of popular activity while retaining the farming spirit of the Seattle Farmers' Collective that  @Jeff was a prominent member of. But without these one-use rune magics to limit the magical growth of the rural yokels, there is a question indeed what will keep your average farmer close to retirement age from having his full CHA in rune points.

RQG p.316 mentions one-use rune spells, and there are a few spells listed as such:

Call Founder

Gnome to Gargoyle

Seal Soul

In addition, some high-powered spells which are reusable to the owner of the rune (and very close associates) may be one-use for other cults who have the magic. Speaking of Resurrection and Sever Spirit here. Possibly Sunspear if any deity other than Yelm might provide it as non-associate magic, and likewise Thunderbolt (possibly as a Tolat/Shargash magic - I haven't seen GaGoG).

 

But then, there is the option to gift POW to one the wyters one follows, or to donate it to enchantments. That will keep even your average Joe Orlanthi from sacrificing for rune points up to his CHA maximum. And that is how non-initiated Pelorians gain access to rune magics cast on their behalf, with a cost-balancing option of the multiple target rules for rune spells cast by the wyter.

 

Basically, the POW economy of the game needs to provide an outlet for POW that makes more sense than increasing the individual's magical might. The RQG rules do provide at least the kernel of such rules to make the framing parameters of the setting sensible. What we need now is some publication showing this in action.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Joerg

[Corvantir]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is worth pointing out that Mythras has a different take on worship, where characters don't need a temple, but use their skills in Devotion and Exhortation to interact with their deity, and only join cults in order to deepen their knowledge of the deity and to benefit from an association of like-minded individuals.  If you find the notion of a shrine needing 75 worshippers to grant rune magic, then consider Mythras' approach as an alternative perhaps? 

May be am I getting it wrong but HeroQuest: Glorantha (HQG) seems to be some kind of middle ground. First, as I wrote it earlier, it seems to me that HQG Lay Member status is somehow between RQ Lay Member and Initiate statuses. HQG Lay Members can actually buy some reusable Rune magic.  Initiate status in HQG is also somewhere between RQ Initiate and Rune Priest statuses as an Initiate has access to the equivalent of "reusable" Rune Magic through the Rune Affinities he shares with his God.

Moreover in HQG, the rules don't ask you to go to a temple in order to recover your Rune Points. You can use your Rune Magic as long as you respect your cult restrictions, the cult holy days and as long as your acts don't offend your God.

I would like to thank you all for your valuable input, I have a better vision of what it is to be an Initiate and of the proportion of Initiates one can find in different parts of the world. That's very helpful.   👍

[Joerg]

34 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

May be am I getting it wrong but HeroQuest: Glorantha (HQG) seems to be some kind of middle ground. First, as I wrote it earlier, it seems to me that HQG Lay Member status is somehow between RQ Lay Member and Initiate statuses. HQG Lay Members can actually buy some reusable Rune magic.

That must have escaped me somehow.

I have played one non-initiated Orlanthi under HQG rules - a spirit worshiper (who had a spirit ally in the shape of an owl, sometimes visible, sometimes in the spirit world). That was all the magical power that character could field. (But then the whole party was a bunch of boys just fresh out of initiation, tasked with keeping a significant part of the clan herd, and up to weird rituals improvised by horny boys wishing to summon the earth women. What in the world could go wrong?)

I don't see lay members in HQG learning affinities from the cults. Gaining them as heroquest rewards is a different proposal.

It is possible (even advisable) in HQG to use your personal runes as the basic abilities from which to take breakouts (my owl in the example above was one such, and a sword ability may be broken out of a storm rune affinity if you wish). RQG allows Runic Inspiration only as an augment, similar to how HQ1 treated an initiate's affinities.

34 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

Initiate status in HQG is also somewhere between RQ Initiate and Rune Priest statuses as an Initiate has access to the equivalent of "reusable" Rune Magic through the Rune Affinities he shares with his God.

HQG makes a great step away from HQ1 and HW here, where affinities could only be used for augments by non-devotees/rune levels.

That HW/HQ1 is obviously different from any form of RQ where rune magic and even spirit magic can be used by initates as an active means of subduing an opponent (e.g. Demoralize, Befuddle).

34 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

Moreover in HQG, the rules don't ask you to go to a temple in order to recover your Rune Points. You can use your Rune Magic as long as you respect your cult restrictions, the cult holy days and as long as your acts don't offend your God.

Observing your cult holy days basically means going to your temple and participation in the worship rites (renewing your rune points). That aspect is pretty much identical in both these systems.

HQG doesn't specify the time requirements for rune levels as a percentage, instead it says "all consuming".

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Under RQ3, the assumption was that farmers would sacrfice for non-reusable Bless Crops or similar blessings and stack them onto what their priests and acolytes (who were the only ones with access to reusable Rune Spells) could manage to churn out.

This is one of the things that made me think of this in more detail. The mother of the household in our game was created at age 41 with 9 Rune Points as per the regular rules, and in Fire Season tossed a 9-point Bless Crops, giving +140% to their own farm as well as to the struggling Kalfs and Soderfalls. This utterly obliterates the need for any farming skill, poor omens, the threat of bad weather, and so on (these effects are tiny in comparison). But if experienced adults have access to 6+ Rune points, this is the kind of thing you would see all the time. Every farm would be under at least +100% from Bless Crops, every pregnancy would be supported by a 5+ Bless Pregnancy, every stead protected with Warding 4, and so on. With Worship giving you POW gain rolls, Rune points are easily accessible to the general population and not just adventurers, and even the progression 3/decade seems on the slow end. But this isn’t the society we’re actually seeing in the game.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is one of the things that made me think of this in more detail. The mother of the household in our game was created at age 41 with 9 Rune Points as per the regular rules, and in Fire Season tossed a 9-point Bless Crops, giving +140% to their own farm as well as to the struggling Kalfs and Soderfalls.

With 7 out of 9 points for the bonus, three hides were affected. That will take care of at most 3 dozen people (including children, herders elsewhere...)

A hide is what a single farmer can plow. Most steads are the home to a number of farmers and tenants, and not every stead will have a holy person able to bring 9 points to the blessing.

 

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This utterly obliterates the need for any farming skill, poor omens, the threat of bad weather, and so on (these effects are tiny in comparison).

Or it explains how a farmer with 50% skill can feed his family through a couple of years without excellent harvests.

I might be persuaded to cap the benefit at again the farming skill of the farmer, possibly with the modifiers included.

 

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

But if experienced adults have access to 6+ Rune points, this is the kind of thing you would see all the time. Every farm would be under at least +100% from Bless Crops, every pregnancy would be supported by a 5+ Bless Pregnancy, and so on.

Bless Pregnancy and Bless Crops are in direct rivalry for attention - Bless Pregnancy blocks all rune points used there for a year. And in Sea Season (not Fire Season) the rune points will be used up for the future harvest, and rune points regained on the High Holy Day will be used for Bless Animal (meaning a season with reduced or no rune points). Either Bless Pregnancy is an extravagance, or the agricultural blessings will suffer.

Your average farming stead will have two or three pregnancies in a year.

So: where do your rune points go?

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

With Worship giving you POW gain rolls, Rune points are easily accessible to the general population and not just adventurers, and even the progression 3/decade seems on the slow end. But this isn’t the society we’re actually seeing in the game.

I agree. But then, we have never had wyters that would take POW sacrifice/gifts from their congregations. Such donations will affect the reputation of the donor.

 

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Bless Pregnancy and Bless Crops are in direct rivalry for attention - Bless Pregnancy blocks all rune points used there for a year. And in Sea Season (not Fire Season) the rune points will be used up for the future harvest, and rune points regained on the High Holy Day will be used for Bless Animal (meaning a season with reduced or no rune points). Either Bless Pregnancy is an extravagance, or the agricultural blessings will suffer.

The "Rune points in use are locked" isn't an official rule yet, no matter how much sense it's making, correct?

Besides, Bless Crops is instant, so even if you say the Rune points are locked for the duration, it doesn't get affected. You would require some additional rule for that.

Also, with locked Rune Points, an optimizing Ernaldan (and they are expected to be cold and calculating...)  will of course drop Bless Pregnancy towards the end of the pregnancy, which is fully allowed and only locks the Rune points up briefly.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

With 7 out of 9 points for the bonus, three hides were affected. That will take care of at most 3 dozen people (including children, herders elsewhere...)

Yes, exactly. But if an average adult has maybe 6 rune points, that means you have rune points Bless Crops to spare in every household. Or even if you have just one unusually holy woman with 12 Rune points (which, let's rememember, is what a starting 51-year old gets in chargen) per six households who is ready to spread it around, that means everyone gets +140%, or ten households get +60%, which should be plenty in most cases.

Hence my question about expected Rune points. It can't reasonably be this high in society in general, right? Or society would look a lot different.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[scott-martin]

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I agree. But then, we have never had wyters that would take POW sacrifice/gifts from their congregations. Such donations will affect the reputation of the donor.

This opens a seductive heroquest door. IF the wyter and the wyter priest are receptive, what's stopping fairly sedentary people from transferring worship obligations from the god to the community itself? The priest needs to maintain the spells the wyter casts on behalf of its members but as long as Reprisal is avoided all points should be "reusable" up to the spirit's POW reservoir.

Don't like your priest? Stay home and pray with family. In time religious affiliations may drift.

[Joerg]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The "Rune points in use are locked" isn't an official rule yet, no matter how much sense it's making, correct?

While a rune spell's duration is ongoing, the rune points cannot be regained. This is stated explicitely for Extension, but applies to all rune spells.

 

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Besides, Bless Crops is instant, so even if you say the Rune points are locked for the duration, it doesn't get affected. You would require some additional rule for that.

Yes, Bless Crops doesn't block the rune points, and neither does Bless Animal. They simply use up rune points which then are unavailable for Bless Pregnancy.

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, with locked Rune Points, an optimizing Ernaldan (and they are expected to be cold and calculating...)  will of course drop Bless Pregnancy towards the end of the pregnancy, which is fully allowed and only locks the Rune points up briefly.

Not allowed:

Quote

The ritual must be cast during the first season of pregnancy.

And anyway, you want your pregnant daughters-in-law to be available for all manner of work on the stead all the time..

 

 

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes, exactly. But if an average adult has maybe 6 rune points, that means you have rune points Bless Crops to spare in every household.

Unless we see a return of Mindlink, I would rule that the rune points for any single Bless Crops need to come from a single source. Enchantments are the only ritual spells that we know can pile up POW from different sources.

 

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Or even if you have just one unusually holy woman with 12 rune points per six households who is ready to spread it around, that means everyone gets +140%.

That unusually holy woman will probably get serious political problems if she would deprieve all the other households from her blessings.

A thane's household would have probably 10 hides that require a blessing. That's where this unusually holy woman will be called to do her magic.

[Akhôrahil]

In a year, an Ernaldan with 9 rune points could do the following:

1. In Earth Season (HHD), drop 9 castings of Bless Animals (this is enough to support a lot of herds of you cast it on the bulls).
2. In two different seasons, provide +100% Bless crops to a total of 10 households
3. Bless two separate pregnancies with 9p Bless Pregnancy each. 
4. And this still leaves room to spare for one full 9p casting in Sacred Time or one season, plus you can get the rune points for some smaller stuff through Worship on lesser Holy Days.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Tindalos]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s pretty clear from published sources that the Average Joe Orlanthi is an initiate. Basically every even herder or duck in published adventures is an initiate at least.

Of course what's also interesting is the Average Joe Long Home denizen apparently may either be a lay worshipper or initiate of Orlanth, Ernalda, or Barntar, and the amount of lay members is significant enough to be called out in their statblock. (TSR 123)

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This opens a seductive heroquest door. IF the wyter and the wyter priest are receptive, what's stopping fairly sedentary people from transferring worship obligations from the god to the community itself? The priest needs to maintain the spells the wyter casts on behalf of its members but as long as Reprisal is avoided all points should be "reusable" up to the spirit's POW reservoir.

Don't like your priest? Stay home and pray with family. In time religious affiliations may drift.

That's the Pelorian way, if my extrapolation of RQG's wyter rules and the statement in the Guide are correct.

The Pelorian priest must deliver, or his temple wyter won't be able to support the necessary magic. Yes, this is sort of a return to "single use initiate rune magic", only now it comes from the priest who uses the POW donated by the congregation to cast his blessings on multiple members of the community - making "Bless Pregnancy" better served via the wyter and one-time POW sacrifice of a couple of people than blocking the priestess's ability to  cast magic on behalf of the congregation.

Whether and how using Bless Crops or similar magic via the wyter is possible hasn't been explored yet.