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Out now in PDF: The Smoking Ruin & Other Stories


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2 minutes ago, Jason Durall said:

It's a common name. See Sartarite Names on page 103 of the core book.

Thinking they're the same person is like assuming two Jonathans you meet are the same guy. 

There are 450 Varmandi in total. How many 25 year-old Vargasts who are leaders do you expect in that clan?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Have a question, and maybe I've missed something (don't have the GMs pack):

The map of Clearwine in The Smoking Ruin, and the map in Sartar Companion, are completely different.

There is absolutely no way to reconcile them, and each of them has completely different special locations.

I know the packs are for different games, and are separated by a few years, but still...

Can anyone give any clarity on this?

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10 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are 450 Varmandi in total. How many 25 year-old Vargasts who are leaders do you expect in that clan?

Your stats are off, though.

I wouldn't expect this sort of name-duplication in EVERY clan of 500ish, but it isn't unreasonable to think that it happens in 1 (up to a few) clan(s); particularly since "popular names" tend to go in waves...

Edited by g33k
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4 hours ago, g33k said:

Your stats are off, though.

I wouldn't expect this sort of name-duplication in EVERY clan of 500ish, but it isn't unreasonable to think that it happens in 1 (up to a few) clan(s); particularly since "popular names" tend to go in waves...

True, I was a victim to that myself when I was one of three Jörgs in my class in high school - however, out of a pool of more than 10,000 people sending their kids to that high school.

Taking the average age pyramid, the 25 year-olds (give and take two years to make it an initiation group) will be about 40 people, males and females, making that 20 males. Sure, there could be two Vargasts or three in that group - although then they would be known by their distinctive nick-names, by which their followers would address them, too. (Even my teachers addressed me as "Baumi"...)

What was the name of the fourth son of Vingkot? His (soon defunct) tribe is known as the Lastralgortelli, but his birth name was Janard, not Lastralgor. That's the power of nicknames.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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I love this pack. It's really amazing.  One art error I think I've spotted however :- The case of the Wrong Chan. On p45 of TSR we have some text on Ereneva Chan (High Priestess of Ernalda and a reference back to the Gm pack Adventures book p26-7. I was a bit surprised to see her art featuring a death rune, scars and a wo[[ing great axe. Checking p27 of the Adventure book we have art for Ereneva _and_ her sister Erannina. Who is a Rune Lord of Babester Gore. I rather think the art files got mixed up and the much less scarred and death runey picture to the left is the right one.  

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16 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are 450 Varmandi in total. How many 25 year-old Vargasts who are leaders do you expect in that clan?

In my first year of uni there were 4 Robs in a cohort of 25. My son in a class of 21 had 2 other Connors. Just on my anecdotal experience ( and more of the same as it repeated in most of the uni classes I taught) I'd expect 3 to 4 Vargasts in any cohort of around 20. More if the clan is less cosmopolitan than Melbourne in the early 2000s (pretty much a given).

And mine is a society in which given names carry very little to no mythic significance. Compare the prevalence of Patrick and Michael among early 20th C Irish populations. Even then they did not have various ancestors dropping in to potentially take offence at the current naming practices.

conclusion: Vargasts are able to multiply to the extent that confusion is required in your game.

If it serves to have them be the same, then they are. If it serves better that the PCs be confused, then they are.


(now I have an idea for a Eurmali casting Create Illusory Nomenclature. "Can we call you Bruce to save confusion?")

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9 hours ago, Hueymakt said:

The map of Clearwine in The Smoking Ruin, and the map in Sartar Companion, are completely different.

There is absolutely no way to reconcile them, and each of them has completely different special locations.

I know the packs are for different games, and are separated by a few years, but still...

Can anyone give any clarity on this?

Correct.  With the shift back to a more Bronze Age view in RQG, many of the old, rough views of the cities of Sartar are being revisited and as with Clearwine, completely revamped. 

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25 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Correct.  With the shift back to a more Bronze Age view in RQG, many of the old, rough views of the cities of Sartar are being revisited and as with Clearwine, completely revamped. 

My vision of Clearwine in the Sartar Companion was not really thought through - and I did not have access to Greg's old sketches of Clearwine from his game. The version presented in RuneQuest is correct.

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49 minutes ago, Jeff said:
1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

 

My vision of Clearwine in the Sartar Companion was not really thought through - and I did not have access to Greg's old sketches of Clearwine from his game. The version presented in RuneQuest is correct.

Love the conception of Dragon pass places in RQG. It’s everything I always hoped it would be and more. Maps are just brilliant. Thanks 🙏 

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11 hours ago, Hueymakt said:

Have a question, and maybe I've missed something (don't have the GMs pack):

The map of Clearwine in The Smoking Ruin, and the map in Sartar Companion, are completely different.

There is absolutely no way to reconcile them, and each of them has completely different special locations.

I know the packs are for different games, and are separated by a few years, but still...

Can anyone give any clarity on this?

The GM's pack does go into a lot more detail, but while the layout is different, a lot of places are the same or similar.

The Thane's Quarter to the Upper City, South Village as the home of the Ernaldori to the Lower City. The Old Gate and Ramp are part of the Sacred Way which you can still see spiralling through the city. The Funerary Mounds to the Necropolis, etc.

Even the hill fort's name, Brondagal, is the same.

The only actual things I would say could be classed as "missing" in this one are North Hill and its Humakti shrine.

I admit I've been a pain on this very subject, but it's interesting to see how things look.

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9 hours ago, Joerg said:

... although then they would be known by their distinctive nick-names, by which their followers would address them, too ...

Very true!  They  might get nick'ed by physical traits -- Black Vargast v. White Vargast, if one has very-dark hair, one has very-pale.  Or "Lesser" and "Greater" for a really major SIZ difference.  Etc...   Also by deeds, attitudes; Broo-Killer, or Vengeful.

But (in the way of continuing the "confusion for players/PCs" idea) they will most likely NOT introduce themselves that way -- I am Black Vargast, or I am Vargast the Lesser, etc.

 

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A stranger marked with a huge death rune covering much of his face approaches the Varmandi village and demands "Come forth, Vargast Vargastson of the Vargasting bloodline, and answer for your crimes in a honest one-on-one duel!"

More than a dozen Varmandi emerge from the fort.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Transmission of names often follow rules more or less strictly; for example, first son named after the paternal grand-father, second after the maternal grand-father, so many cousins, grand-sons of a Vargast, would be called Vargast. I would also expect a cottar receiving land to plow from a thane to name his first son born on this land after his "benefactor", so a thane named Vargast settling many cottars could launch a "naming trend" in the neighborhood. So yes, the "solution" stands in the nicknames because first names are more of a group marker.

I also like a lot the status of "named men" in Abercrombie's novels, the first step in a successful warrior's life being the acquisition of a "war nickname". I shall use it in my campaign. 

Nonetheless, I see Jeorg"s point. 450 Varmandi, so around 220 males, in their early twenties, maybe 25% of that considering that medieval population had often 50% of people less than 20 years old. So it would make 55 people, but to be a leader at this age, he would probably belong to the thane class so 7% in Jeff's table. So 3-4 people are concerned. Still two young war leader called Vargast, son of Vargast are possible, probably close kin as thanes lineages probably have specific name stocks. In our case, my fictional money would be on the herder being a dependent/client of the the family of the mercenary chief.

Edited by Minlister
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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Vargast is a very common Varmandi name. And name duplication is common. Chaosium has less than 20 employees, and yet two are named Michael and another two are named David. 

In fact, there are three Michaels, we go by MikeMOB, and Michal to make it easier. 

And there are three Davids: David Scott, David Larkins, and David Naylor.

Not to mention all the Js: Jeff, Jason, Jim, Jamie, Julia and John.

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12 hours ago, Joerg said:

A stranger marked with a huge death rune covering much of his face approaches the Varmandi village and demands "Come forth, Vargast Vargastson of the Vargasting bloodline, and answer for your crimes in a honest one-on-one duel!"

More than a dozen Varmandi emerge from the fort.

"I'm Vargast!"
"I'm Vargast!"
"I'm Vargast, and so is my wife!"

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2 hours ago, MOB said:

In fact, there are three Michaels, we go by MikeMOB, and Michal to make it easier. 

And there are three Davids: David Scott, David Larkins, and David Naylor.

Not to mention all the Js: Jeff, Jason, Jim, Jamie, Julia and John.

The point is that name repetition is common. Probably far more common than we make out. 

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