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Sorcery as presented in The Smoking Ruins


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18 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why have a crystal with 6MP, when you can bind a spirit into it that has 20? And you get two added benefits - 1), no need to recharge yourself, 2) you can sic them on people. Maybe a third if they can also cast spells... 

 

Well the number of spirts one can bind are limited by CHA and crystals are as common as blood from gods who have been bleeding in a God War. And one can have an unlimited amount of them (I believe).Mind you lordabdul has found them rather lacking considering the circumstances.  Matrices, are a bit more useful when one can not find crystals, but of course you have to create them, so...

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, that would be silly! 

Why have a crystal with 6MP, when you can bind a spirit into it that has 20? And you get two added benefits - 1), no need to recharge yourself, 2) you can sic them on people. Maybe a third if they can also cast spells... 

 

OTOH, I've always wondered how big a crystal is supposed to be... And if you can cut and shape them without losing their powers.

Spirits in crystals are much more efficient for this reason. As far as I can tell from the rules Spirits in Crystals specifically act solely as mana batteries and a source of trapped entity easily controlled at hand, they cannot use their spells and abilities from the crystal.

In our Glorantha, Spirits in Binding Enchantments, both in objects and animals, allied spirits, wyters and other bound spirit can still cast their spells on the person holding/bound to the thing without having to be directly controlled/commanded/dominated from their hinding to do the thingy. Otherwise a lot of items found as loot or used in/on adventures just don't really do anything, and it really makes rhe flow of magical combat feel much better, especially at high levels. 

 

In our Glorantha crystals are too difficult for Mortals to have any means of 'working' in any real way. Though, we often have them set into objects and bound into linked enchantments and such.

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1 hour ago, Marc said:

I don't see how that gets the caster out of providing the required magic points, and the strike ranks they take.

Nah, I disagree. "Manipulating a spell" means spending the extra MPs and extra SRs to cast it (it's the name of the section under which you find the tables for extra intensity/range/duration). But inscribing a spell specifically lets the sorcerer cast the spell "without requiring any manipulation". What would that even mean, if you still need to pay the MPs and wait the SRs? At the very least, you should get one of those free, if not both.

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

This makes me wonder if Grimoires will be handled as books of inscriptions.

I suppose so -- but unless there's a specific advantage to inscribe a spell on paper or in a book, I'm not sure it's worth it, since those are a lot less practical to carry around and use compared to objects like necklaces and rings and walking staffs.

It might make some of you shake their heads, but I'm actually hoping the extended sorcery rules add advantages to inscribed spells based on when you inscribed them, where, on what, using what kind of ritual, etc. Basically, get a portion of the "sympathetic magic" advantages embedded inside the inscribed spell. Not only does this reinforce the whole "a prepared sorcerer is powerful" trope, it also gives more opportunities for the sorcerer to come out of his laboratory.

Edited by lordabdul

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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29 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

As far as I can tell from the rules Spirits in Crystals specifically act solely as mana batteries and a source of trapped entity easily controlled at hand, they cannot use their spells and abilities from the crystal.

I originally read the rules in RQG GM Pack as meaning that the spirit in the crystal cannot act independently, and can only obey the crystal owner (i.e. it can cast spells if ordered, but it can't on its own, unless the owner has more spirits bound than their CHA, in which case spirits can start rebelling). Now I'm not so sure. The sidebar on p60 of The Smoking Ruins makes it look like crystals can actually have independently acting spirits in them. And FWIW, in old RQ2 books like Apple Lane, crystal-bound spirits were also able to act on orders... Gringle had a spirit in a crystal with orders to defend his house against intruders.

Edited by lordabdul
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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It helps but I would say there are a lot of caveats, no? First, the spirit combat must be happening in the visible mundane world -- if the shaman is currently discorporated, the whole combat is happening in the spirit world and out of reach for physical people.

If a hostile spirit is bothering the party, it is already visible, so in order to attack it, the shaman or any subservient spirit sent by one must be discorporate and visible.

 

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Second, the spirit must be reachable -- some spirits might be hovering above the characters, some naiad might be in a river, etc... which means I would apply some penalties to physical attacks (but it's hard to say, I can't see anything in the rules about how far 2 spirit combatants can be... and, on the other hand, if the enemy spirit is too close to another PC, there might be other penalties to not hit a friend).

Which leads to the standard spirit combat ploy - the attacking spirit envelopes its victim, eroding its resistance pretty much like an amoeba or a gorp feed on their victims. Most elementals attack this way, too.

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It might be a good group tactic, however, to use the shaman, or some bound spirits, to lure any enemy spirits to a place where the Humakti can swing at them.

Go ahead and swing at this enveloped character. If you want to save the spirit's victim, you need a healerl to repair the wounds the spirit's victim receives, which may be a little less than those the spirit suffers because of armor, but this approach risks crits or specials and lopped off limbs or heads or stuck weapons, or instant death.u

 

An agile spirit might just drop visibility before the Humakti connects, leaving the physical damage to the rescuee without incurring damage to the spirit. Baiting the Humakti that way may be a way an intelligent spirit might attack (like e.g. the guardian spirits employed by Urvantan).

Dropping out of the spirit place right "on top" of the Humakti or even better, her sword handle, is of course the way to prevent the Humakti striking at it.

Basically, your iron sword-tranced Humakti better had some form of spirit screen on, as she will be the most logical target for spirit attacks.

 

5 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

It says in the spirit combat chapter that a spirit MUST become Visible to initiate Spirit Combat with a mortal that is in the Material World.

Does it tell us how long that takes, how quickly and how accurately it can move between modes of visibility?

 

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

That was my thought as well - without a shaman, you can't hunt down any spirits, but you can certainly do self-defence.

There is nothing to keep intelligent spirits from tag-teaming, remaining sufficiently stronger to exit spirit combat while they still can, with your characters striking back and causing the occasional damage, but in the end being brought down to zero.

Casting magic inside a spirit combat had better be done from magic point storages. Adventurers without those devices are limited to rune magic if they don't want to weaken their fighting strength.

While casting spirit screen gives you a breather for 2 minutes, an intelligent spirit will just sit out these two minutes and then resume its attack.

Which leads to the economics of the spirit popping into and out of visibliity. What are the cost?

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

But AIUI "Spirit Combat" us a sort of melee-like affair -- spirit and foe must be able to see one another, and they must be proximate -- touching distance.  A spirit outside of swords-reach cannot engage in spirit combat.

I go a step further and compare it to wrestling or engulfing. The attacked non-spirit can just "harden" itself, hoping to abrase the attacking spirit, while the spirit can effectively digest its victim.

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

OTOH... there is nothing to prevent a spirit from keeping some distance, and spell-casting (if they know relevant spells) at the Humakti.

Like just below the ceiling of the room, or even inside it, and same with walls. If the Humakti can reach that high, she will do collateral damage to the environment and potentially dull her sacred object.

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

There is nothing to prevent a spirit from slipping back and forth between visible and invisible, attacking at speed, from unexpected directions (behind, overhead, flank, maybe even rising from underground?).

Except if there is a cost to that. Using hard surfaces as cover is another trick.

Now, can a spirit manage to get into that plate cuirass while attacking its wearer? Now the Humakti needs to overcome the victim's armor to harm the spirit (and the victim), which means hit and heal means an even greater risk to the victim.

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

There is nothing to prevent spirits from coordinating... Imagine a screen of lesser spirits beyond swords-reach, such that there is ALWAYS a threat at his back, ALWAYS a visual screen obscuring the REAL threat that's coming back momentarily...

Etc.

How many lesser spirits can attack a single physical being? Can visible disembodied beings overlap with one another? Can a ghost or a wraith hide inside a shade or a lune?

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, that would be silly!  Why have a crystal with 6MP, when you can bind a spirit into it that has 20? And you get two added benefits - 1), no need to recharge yourself, 2) you can sic them on people. Maybe a third if they can also cast spells... OTOH, I've always wondered how big a crystal is supposed to be... And if you can cut and shape them without losing their powers.

Silly like a fox.  Spirits bound into crystals also refill the crystals.  How much better than creating a spirit matrix is that?  I would suggest that crystals will be a sorcerer's stock and trade, much like they are a Priest or a Shaman's stock and trade.  If that isn't an incentive for going after theists and primitives, I don't know what would be.

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22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Silly like a fox.  Spirits bound into crystals also refill the crystals. 

A spirit in a dead crystal can be ordered to (partially or completely) fill another dead crystal, or to provide its MP directly to spells cast by the person in possession of the crystal.

 

22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

How much better than creating a spirit matrix is that? 

Not at all, apart from the fact that finding a crystal doesn't cost you (or another creator's) POW.

A spirit might be ordered to leave the crystal, fill it up and then do its thing, but it would do so weakened by the amount of MP poured into that crystal, making it less effective. As this is a serial command, doing that requires you to use a Dominate, Control or Command Spirit spell prior to releasing it, costing an extra point of magic (or two, for Dominate, with Command costing a valuable rune point). The bonus is that you can command the spirit back into its holding item at the end of the commanding spell's duration - unless you made it fill the crystal with MP and didn't have a chance to use them yet. But then, there will probably be some healing to be done four or more melee rounds into the game.

That's little different from having the spirit power a spell or two before you release it to harrass an opponent without any spell, and resummoning it later.

 

22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I would suggest that crystals will be a sorcerer's stock and trade, much like they are a Priest or a Shaman's stock and trade.  If that isn't an incentive for going after theists and primitives, I don't know what would be.

Crystals can be harvested from mythical sites, too - and if the mundane site has already been plundered dry, go visit the myth and dunk a rock or three in the still warm blood of a wounded deity.

Of course, whatever has wounded that deity will still be around...

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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47 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Silly like a fox.  Spirits bound into crystals also refill the crystals.  How much better than creating a spirit matrix is that?  I would suggest that crystals will be a sorcerer's stock and trade, much like they are a Priest or a Shaman's stock and trade.  If that isn't an incentive for going after theists and primitives, I don't know what would be.

Foxes are silly???

Possibly, except you're limited in the number of bound spirits you have, as well as the amount of POW for the bindings.

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Just now, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm, wouldn't that make a powered crystal? By enlivening it??

Possibly. But then, there might be ways to kill a powered crystal and make it a dead one.

Taking the blood from a dying deity should provide dead crystals.

But yes, this is probably the kind of heroquesting God Learners (and before and after them Hrestoli Men-of-All) engaged in routinely. Bonus points if you can take the role of the god's slayer and earn some nifty hero power from that, too.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Now, I could be incorrect but isn’t that "silly like a duck", round about these here parts?

I thought that the adjective mostly used with ducks is "twagic".

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why have a crystal with 6MP, when you can bind a spirit into it that has 20? And you get two added benefits - 1), no need to recharge yourself, 2) you can sic them on people. Maybe a third if they can also cast spells... 

Because a spirit bound in a crystal can be controlled by ANYONE that can see it. If it is bound in a binding enchantment, there can be conditions, but not with a crystal, and having your own spirits turned against you is very dangerous.

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17 hours ago, Marc said:

Where in the rules does it say this?  Looking at the text on page 390, it says:

Knowledge of a sorcery spell can be inscribed into an item—
such as a scroll, book, piece of jewelry, weapon, or some other
small token—through ritual enchantment, instead of using
a point of Free INT. The enchanter, who must know the
spell, must sacrifice 1 point of POW to create the inscription.
For each point of POW added to the inscription, the
base strength, range, or duration of the spell is increased by
1, without requiring any manipulation by the sorcerer. This
enables the sorcerer to create spells with a greater intensity
than their Free INT would allow.

 

The way I read that, all the initial inscription does is allow you to cast the spell without tying up a point of Free INT.  Additional points of POW added to the inscription allow the sorceror to add additional levels of intensity for strength, duration or range, without requiring manipulation at the time of casting, and therefore allowing you to cast the spell with the "baked in" manipulation not using any of the caster's Free INT. I don't see how that gets the caster out of providing the required magic points, and the strike ranks they take.

 

I agree.  The only way to get around this would be fairly easy for the sorcerer the OP is talking about, however.  Simply use all those MPM enchantments to enchant his scroll with magic points on the condition that they be expended to pay for the mp cost of the spell.  So I make a scroll with Intensity 13 Boon of Kargan Tor and have 13 mp's enchanted in the scroll to pay for that intensity.

That still wouldn't get around the SR time.  For that you'd need the God Learner skill of Fast Casting or the skill taught in the Fronela temple (at Riverjoin?  I forget.  The White Moon university)

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2 hours ago, Kloster said:

Because a spirit bound in a crystal can be controlled by ANYONE that can see it. If it is bound in a binding enchantment, there can be conditions, but not with a crystal, and having your own spirits turned against you is very dangerous.

No, the crystals are now attuned.  Only the attuned person could snatch the spirit out of the crystal.  However, if the attuned owner of the crystal was foolish enough to command the spirit out, then, yes, someone else could wrest command away from him.  However, the initial thought is valid:  put powerful spirits in your crystals so they regenerate magic points. 

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15 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I originally read the rules in RQG GM Pack as meaning that the spirit in the crystal cannot act independently, and can only obey the crystal owner (i.e. it can cast spells if ordered, but it can't on its own, unless the owner has more spirits bound than their CHA, in which case spirits can start rebelling). Now I'm not so sure. The sidebar on p60 of The Smoking Ruins makes it look like crystals can actually have independently acting spirits in them. And FWIW, in old RQ2 books like Apple Lane, crystal-bound spirits were also able to act on orders... Gringle had a spirit in a crystal with orders to defend his house against intruders.

This is something I would roleplay.  For example, if an animal spirit were put into a crystal, about all you're going to get out of it are its magic points.  But if an ancestor spirit were put into the crystal, then it really depends on how that ancestor reacts to its owner.  So while Gringle probably had a friendly spirit he could trust in that crystal and he knew it would willingly defend his home, if, say, the PCs were to nab that crystal it probably wouldn't be so inclined.  And while it must obey its commands, well, I'm an old school Stormbringer player and demons of desire are the most dangerous of all demons, just ask my players, so that spirit may "obey" it's commands, but it's never going to be doing so loyally and faithfully.  "I know the house burnt down, but the salamander I summoned to destroy the intruders wasn't itself an intruder master."

Edited by Pentallion
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37 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

No, the crystals are now attuned.  Only the attuned person could snatch the spirit out of the crystal.  However, if the attuned owner of the crystal was foolish enough to command the spirit out, then, yes, someone else could wrest command away from him.  However, the initial thought is valid:  put powerful spirits in your crystals so they regenerate magic points. 

Dead crystals are not attuned, they can't be. And I can't find anything that forbid to take control of a spirit bound in an attuned crystal. The only restrictions are with enchantments.

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20 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Dead crystals are not attuned, they can't be. And I can't find anything that forbid to take control of a spirit bound in an attuned crystal. The only restrictions are with enchantments.

You're right, it doesn't say you attune the crystal, my bad.  However, it DOES say:

Quote

Once a spirit has been bound within such a crystal, the
POW of the spirit is available for the use of the
binder
. The spirit may not throw spells itself or
take other independent action

So no one else can use the spirit you trapped in the crystal but you.  For spending mps that regenerate.

Edited by Pentallion
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20 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

You're right, it doesn't say you attune the crystal, my bad.  However, it DOES say:

So no one else can use the spirit you trapped in the crystal but you.  For spending mps that regenerate.

The danger is not there: Anybody that can see the spirit, either by being a shaman, or by using a spell like second sight, can target it with a control spell that automatically succeed. The following order is in most of the case to attack the owner of the crystal, that is thus attacked by his own spirits.

RQG p250:

Control spells automatically work against creatures while they are bound in items.
Also, a control spell supersedes the innate control held over an entity bound into an item. An enchanter who does not use conditions (see below) to restrict the use of their items may find their bound entities stolen or turned against them
by crafty opponents using the proper control spells. Anyone
that can use the item can also cast spells on the entity trapped
inside: they do not need to be in physical contact with the
item to affect the entity with spells, although they must use
magical means of seeing (such as Pierce Veil, Second Sight, or
Soul Sight) to target spells against a bound entity in this way.

Edited by Kloster
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1 minute ago, Kloster said:

The danger is not there: Anybody that can see the spirit, either by being a shaman, or by using a spell like second sight, can target it with a control spell that automatically succeed. The following order is in most of the case to attack the owner of the crystal, that is thus attacked by his own spirits.

I disagree.  It explicity comes with a condition, that condition that only you can use the spirits mps and it also has the condition that the spirit can only be commanded to give its magic points, not cast spells.  These conditions prevent a shaman from doing anything but seeing the spirit.

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1 minute ago, Pentallion said:

I disagree.  It explicity comes with a condition, that condition that only you can use the spirits mps and it also has the condition that the spirit can only be commanded to give its magic points, not cast spells.  These conditions prevent a shaman from doing anything but seeing the spirit.

Only you can use the MP, this is true, and only you can cast the spell known by the spirit, but anybody that can perceive it can target it with a control spell that automatically succeed (p250).

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