Sorcery as presented in The Smoking Ruins

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Clarification on the Magic Rune.

I guess this makes sense, though it certainly doesn't bode well for the sorcerer I just made last night. Another irreplaceable rune slot down the drain...

Edited December 30, 2019 by Richard S.

[styopa]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:21 AM, lordabdul said:

😅

IMHO the problem is that the authors are all great storytellers and designers, but they're not munchkins or rules lawyers or game mechanics engineers, from what I can tell. Not only do they probably instinctively use the rules only within the narrative framework of Glorantha because they're so used to it, but they also very much belong to the school of thought where the GM can manipulate RAW as necessary to keep the game flowing, players happy, and story consistent and plausible. For instance, I don't think any of the authors use the SR system as written. It's not a mechanical problem per se, but it's at least a problem of expectations, because a crunchy system is often expected by players to be solid and well defined. I think RQG would have greatly benefited from having a "soft release", like an open beta/playtest for an extra year. AFAIK the RQG production went super fast. Maybe too fast.

I wish I could upvote this more. Well put.

I haven't read TSR so I don't know about the items this particular Rokari has, but I think one of the first lessons a GM learns is: "never give an NPC magic items that would be unbalancing in in the hands of characters". 

Simultaneously, I've always found the "this magic item can only be used by this bad guy and nobody else"* to be a cheesy way to essentially cheat players of rewards.  Particularly when the game has a penchant for magic items that are otherwise essentially rule-breaking or there's no conceivable way to make them given the game mechanics available.

*as mentioned, I haven't read it so I don't know if this is even relevant to TSR specifically

[Austin]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

I wish I could upvote this more. Well put.

I haven't read TSR so I don't know about the items this particular Rokari has, but I think one of the first lessons a GM learns is: "never give an NPC magic items that would be unbalancing in in the hands of characters". 

Simultaneously, I've always found the "this magic item can only be used by this bad guy and nobody else"* to be a cheesy way to essentially cheat players of rewards.  Particularly when the game has a penchant for magic items that are otherwise essentially rule-breaking or there's no conceivable way to make them given the game mechanics available.

*as mentioned, I haven't read it so I don't know if this is even relevant to TSR specifically

I jammed TSR in the first few days it was out. Urvantan's got a ton of magic items, but most of them are jewelry with inscribed spells (hence why actually figuring out how the heck inscriptions work matters). So on the one hand some of his good stuff is owner-only (but at least using a method players may be familiar with), but on the other his other stuff is pretty wild (like a Teleportation matrix for 6MP).

Now, Urvantan's supposed to be a "good guy" and supposed (I think) not to die during the adventure, so adventurers seem to be supposed to not get his stuff...

But, y'know... players.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

I wish I could upvote this more. Well put.

I haven't read TSR so I don't know about the items this particular Rokari has, but I think one of the first lessons a GM learns is: "never give an NPC magic items that would be unbalancing in in the hands of characters". 

Simultaneously, I've always found the "this magic item can only be used by this bad guy and nobody else"* to be a cheesy way to essentially cheat players of rewards.  Particularly when the game has a penchant for magic items that are otherwise essentially rule-breaking or there's no conceivable way to make them given the game mechanics available.

*as mentioned, I haven't read it so I don't know if this is even relevant to TSR specifically

The NPC is meant as an ally, and even his opponents are possible allies after being shown their helplessness against the party. But then the sorcerer has a chance to use himself up heroically in the straight "watch the awesome sorcerer" version of the scenario, so the gimmicks (other than the inscribed spells, which are indeed by the nature of sorcerous inscriptions items that only the creator can use) are open to be inherited.

Major Spoiler Alert

But then, there is another way to tackle this scenario. The original problem is a

mercenary band with a (dubious) claim to rulership over the valley.

One of the best ways to deal with a mercenary band is to outhire them. Given that they aren't even here on a commission but closer to an assigned civic quarter with extortion possibilities, it might be possible to hire the bunch - especially if their leader is suppressed in the Champion's Battle that is part of the "watch the awesome sorcerer getting killed again and again" plotline which I find somewhat disappointing.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Joerg
Spoiler tags

[Bill the barbarian]

48 minutes ago, Crel said:

I jammed TSR in the first few days it was out. Urvantan's got a ton of magic items, but most of them are jewelry with inscribed spells (hence why actually figuring out how the heck inscriptions work matters). So on the one hand some of his good stuff is owner-only (but at least using a method players may be familiar with), but on the other his other stuff is pretty wild (like a Teleportation matrix for 6MP).

 

Careful on the Spoilers..

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, Scotty said:

Clarification on the Magic Rune.

Thanks! That's a.... errr.... quite big errata to find so late after the publication of RQG

Can we hope to see updated RQG and Rune Fixes PDFs?

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

What I'm unclear about now is whether you have to pay MP for these "pre-manipulations". It says you get those levels of manipulation free, so I'm inclined to think no

We discussed this a bit earlier in the thread IIRC, but yeah that's my interpretation too -- not only do you save on MP, you also save on Strike Ranks (although it's unclear if you still spend that one full melee round or not).

Edited December 30, 2019 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Thanks! That's a.... errr.... quite big errata to find so late after the publication of RQG

Can we hope to see updated RQG and Rune Fixes PDFs?

Go to the Well of Daliath where these have been conveniently organized by chapter. For example under the Sorcery chapter:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-17-sorcery/ 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by jajagappa

[Lordabdul]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Go to the Well of Daliath where these have been conveniently organized by chapter.

Yeah I know but it's still nice to have PDFs updated, since I very frequently use the PDFs to search for keywords, spell names, etc. The Well of Daliath should be for rules clarification... not for errata.

(but at this point, like I said, I would frankly prefer to see a "RuneQuest Revised" rulebook produced, much like what Zweihander or GURPS 3e or several others did in the past)

Edited December 30, 2019 by lordabdul

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Clarification on the Magic Rune.

Thanks! That's a.... errr.... quite big errata to find so late after the publication of RQG

Apparently it needed this discussion to make the authors and editors recognize the potential for misunderstanding.

 

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

What I'm unclear about now is whether you have to pay MP for these "pre-manipulations". It says you get those levels of manipulation free, so I'm inclined to think no

We discussed this a bit earlier in the thread IIRC, but yeah that's my interpretation too -- not only do you save on MP, you also save on Strike Ranks (although it's unclear if you still spend that one full melee round or not).

I think it was a clarification by David Scott which made me arrive at this interpretation, and which made me rethink a possible inscribing strategy from the perspective of a player of a sorcerer.

Hence my question (still unanswered) if you can inscribe spells that you only have inferred rune and/or technique at all, and if you can, whether 1 POW still equals 1 intensity (or range,, or duration) or only 1 MP in the spell.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

(but at this point, like I said, I would frankly prefer to see a "RuneQuest Revised" rulebook produced, much like what Zweihander or GURPS 3e or several others did in the past)

I will second that and be willing to pay to have a third RQ RiG around, as long as it is corrected.

[Prinz Slasar]

7 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I will second that and be willing to pay to have a third RQ RiG around, as long as it is corrected.

me too, as I've bought the 1st print and the 2nd print.

Edited December 30, 2019 by prinz.slasar

[Austin]

10 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Careful on the Spoilers..

I mean, it's literally in the OP (along with a heckin' big Spoiler Warning notice from Joerg). Was just restating in attempt to be helpful.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

but at this point, like I said, I would frankly prefer to see a "RuneQuest Revised" rulebook produced, much like what Zweihander or GURPS 3e or several others did in the past)

I suspect it will happen - just not any time soon.

When it comes out, I hope it lacks the snarkiness of the Q&A... 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

I mean, it's literally in the OP (along with a heckin' big Spoiler Warning notice from Joerg). Was just restating in attempt to be helpful.

 Not trying to pee in your cornflakes, anyway you know my fetish against spoilers...

Please, I certainly hope you don't take it personal. I will say that many times to come to many others so consider it an honour

 My main difficulty with spoilers on this product that are not warned about or hidden is that  this is a brand new, I mean it is not over 8 days old. I thought that was the main point for most folk on the spoiler question, how long the product has been out. As an author of a module yourself, you do have a horse in this race. 

Now finally (yay)  I did not catch it in the OP, damn that is 5 pages back, I  have a hard time some day remembering brekkie never mind elevensies, and the spoiler alert comes well after your post, Anyway thanks for listening, and carry on.

Cheers

Edited December 31, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

When it comes out, I hope it lacks the snarkiness of the Q&A...

The Q&A are just copy/pasted replies by Jason. A hypothetical "RuneQuest Revised" rulebook would mainly be about rephrasing many of the rules in a clearer way (using more strictly defined terminology), adding more examples to help clear things further, and maybe (if page count allows it) incorporating a few new spells and a chapter or two (like, say, the chapter on crystals).

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

The Q&A are just copy/pasted replies by Jason. A hypothetical "RuneQuest Revised" rulebook would mainly be about rephrasing many of the rules in a clearer way (using more strictly defined terminology), adding more examples to help clear things further, and maybe (if page count allows it) incorporating a few new spells and a chapter or two (like, say, the chapter on crystals).

An intermediary measure might simply be a pdf of the rules with the Q&A inserted as comments. Doesn't help much with a printed version, though.

[Austin]

8 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Not trying to pee in your cornflakes, anyway you know my fetish against spoilers...

Please, I certainly hope you don't take it personal. I will say that many times to come to many others so consider it an honour

No worries, nothing personal taken! My view is that this thread is pretty much "Here Be Spoilers" (like dragons, but with fewer teeth and more Chaos features) so it's not something I feel/felt especially worried about. I do think generally that TSR is within spoiler-protection territory.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

An intermediary measure might simply be a pdf of the rules with the Q&A inserted as comments. Doesn't help much with a printed version, though.

I would say we first need a comprehensive errata collection - a lot of the rulings are clearly not particularly deeply considered, and they are only the stuff people have actually asked about, and not infrequently the rules questions are stuff that the rules actually cover.

And once that's in place, it couldn't be too hard to update the PDFs.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

Bonjour mesdames et messieurs

My first post here ! Sorry for my english, I hope I will be clear and not rude 😛

I like a lot how sorcery is described now (more than all house rules I saw with saints, etc... years ago) but it is clear that we need more clarifications.

On 12/26/2019 at 5:29 PM, lordabdul said:

This to me is more indicative of one of the problems with Sorcery. First, the spells listed in RQG are only examples, so one can imagine different ways to enhance your INT. Second, I frankly can't picture why the Fire Rune, more than the others, would help with enhancing INT. If I wanted a "water-themed" sorcerer, I would probably allow a Water-based form of Enhance INT, instead of wasting a Free INT point for a Rune that doesn't fit the character concept. Of course some rules-lawyery people might say "but that's not what RAW says!", but the whole point of a free-form magic system is... well, to be free-form.

My vision :

A sorcerer manipulates powers from runes. From my perspective, a sorcerer must use Fire Rune to enhance Int not because the spell listed in RQG says that but

page 48 :

[Fire/Sky The element of Fire/Sky is purification. It destroys polluting matter and withdraws upward from the Material World. It is the Sky Dome and the stars, with its greatest manifestation being the fiery Sun that brings light and warmth to the world.
Characteristic: INT Personality: To have a strong affinity with Fire/Sky means to be pure, chaste, idealistic, and perceptive. Sense: Scan Skill Category: Perception Weapons: Spear, bow Organs: Brain, sinew Color: Yellow Metal: Gold Phylum: Bird]

So your sorcer wants to enhance or reduce Int ? He must manipulate Fire rune. He wants to enhance perception Skill --> fire rune. He wants to play with his opponent size ? He must manipulate Darkness rune.

That's not sorcery rule,that's gloranthan runes rule. (Note that, if I had to define link between elements and characteristics, I am not sure I would choose the same than gloranthan rules, but the power in glorantha are described like that)

 

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Apparently it needed this discussion to make the authors and editors recognize the potential for misunderstanding.

 

I think it was a clarification by David Scott which made me arrive at this interpretation, and which made me rethink a possible inscribing strategy from the perspective of a player of a sorcerer.

Hence my question (still unanswered) if you can inscribe spells that you only have inferred rune and/or technique at all, and if you can, whether 1 POW still equals 1 intensity (or range,, or duration) or only 1 MP in the spell.

I fear what will be the conclusion of inscribing spells impact. I hope there is no MP saving (free INT yes, SR yes, but mp ...)

Role play : as a magician, you must channel your energy in order to create your spell. Great power has a great cost, no pain no gain

Game play : if MP are saved, that means that you can indefinitely cast snow balls to your ennemies. Well... after 10 POW you are just.. like a god (ok 20 POW perhaps) ? In fact that is exactly the same to have bladesharp XXX on your blade all the time.

My two guilders

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

And once that's in place, it couldn't be too hard to update the PDFs.

and  it would be a touch cheaper then the books (stilll want  a corrected book).

28 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Bonjour mesdames et messieurs

My first post here ! Sorry for my english, I hope I will be clear and not rude 😛

Bienvenue, et bonne année French Desperate WindChild, now why would you want to different from the rest of us and not be rude ( juste une blague). Hell if you can put up with the horror of my french we will try to adjust. Just please, do not seek clarity in my work...

Cheers

Edited December 31, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

An intermediary measure might simply be a pdf of the rules with the Q&A inserted as comments. Doesn't help much with a printed version, though.

There are some minor rewording's and such, that are drop-in replacements.

But stuff like adding the Q&A's is a substantial increase in linear column-inches of text, which would totally mess with the layout.

I do not see that as a quick stopgap, an "intermediary."

My guess is that Chaosium won't see it that way, either...

[g33k]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Bonjour mesdames et messieurs

My first post here ! Sorry for my english, I hope I will be clear and not rude 😛

...

Hello, and welcome!

Your English is FAR better than my French, and more clear than some native English-speakers seem able to write...  And much, MUCH less rude!

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

So your sorcer wants to enhance or reduce Int ? He must manipulate Fire rune. He wants to enhance perception Skill --> fire rune. He wants to play with his opponent size ? He must manipulate Darkness rune.

Not always.

The spell "Tap Body" affects the victim's size despite not involving the Darkness Rune, instead using the Man Rune. It is possible there may be other "loopholes" around certain required runes to produce the required effect.

[styopa]

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

 But then the sorcerer has a chance to use himself up heroically in the straight "watch the awesome sorcerer" version of the scenario

Oh.  Ick.  Never been fond of the "show the players how awesome they aren't" style of story.  (cf Guild Wars 2).

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Go to the Well of Daliath where these have been conveniently organized by chapter. For example under the Sorcery chapter:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-17-sorcery/ 

 

Damn I hope that's stickied somewhere here or on the Chaosium pages for the majority of non forum-lurking players to find.

Thanks

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Game play : if MP are saved, that means that you can indefinitely cast snow balls to your ennemies. Well... after 10 POW you are just.. like a god (ok 20 POW perhaps) ? In fact that is exactly the same to have bladesharp XXX on your blade all the time.

Bienvenue!

Good point, but I still, narratively speaking, like the idea that a well-prepared sorcerer can do amazing things. I would probably rule that you can pre-store MPs in advance, which means that the first casting is immediate (or almost immediate) and free (as you're using the stored MP in the inscribed spell). So kinda like a POW storage crystal, but without the need to spend SRs to transfer the MP "out" of the crystal and into the casting (because they're "already there"). Any subsequent casting of the (now "empty") inscribed spell requires MP expenditure from the caster. So for the first few turns, the sorcerer can use his various tablets and accessories and bling-bling, but if his opponents survive, things get a bit tougher as the spells suddenly take extra turns to cast and need MP.