Western Hsunchen

[Sir_Godspeed]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ifaldor is how it is spelled in the Xeotam dialogue. Born from the union of two Srvuali (single element deities), like Aerlit and Warera. Mortals.

(Although Aerlit is technically a Burta already.)

Ah, yes I've read the Xeotam Dialogues a few times, but the typology always dims after a while, given that it's so dense with rarely-used words. Google didn't recognize the plural, only the singular. Anyway, thanks for clearing up. 

Speaking of which, Xeotam is a golden sources of ideas that do not quite neatly fit with the cold analytical presentation of Zzabur's runic devolution, nor is it quite aligning with the Theyalan-Monomyth-synthesis either. I'd love to see it actually given a social and cultural context - or in other words, see the kind of people whose ideas and terms the dialogue actually comes from. It's my impression that it's not some aberrant idiosyncratic work, but presents a worldview that is fairly conventional to the speaker.

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Ah, yes I've read the Xeotam Dialogues a few times, but the typology always dims after a while, given that it's so dense with rarely-used words. Google didn't recognize the plural, only the singular. Anyway, thanks for clearing up. 

Speaking of which, Xeotam is a golden sources of ideas that do not quite neatly fit with the cold analytical presentation of Zzabur's runic devolution, nor is it quite aligning with the Theyalan-Monomyth-synthesis either. I'd love to see it actually given a social and cultural context - or in other words, see the kind of people whose ideas and terms the dialogue actually comes from. It's my impression that it's not some aberrant idiosyncratic work, but presents a worldview that is fairly conventional to the speaker.

Yeah, I'd accidentally misspelled it Ifaldori as Ilfadori. (The plural is used at one point, or maybe it's just the genitive, but they often do double duty)

As for the viewpoint, we're told the Dialogues are popular with wizards in the late third age, so it's likely Rokari wizards at least would enjoy it. From earlier remarks, that particular copy's from 1618 and Theoblanc has a copy in his library. It still displays the cold devolution (what with talking about the Srvuali of each Rune, much as we'd talk about more specific deities or subrunes) it's just that they are at once manifestations of impersonal forces, Zzabur's fellows, and gods; and the wizards don't care about any contradictions.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

24 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

As for the viewpoint, we're told the Dialogues are popular with wizards in the late third age, so it's likely Rokari wizards at least would enjoy it. From earlier remarks, that particular copy's from 1618 and Theoblanc has a copy in his library. It still displays the cold devolution (what with talking about the Srvuali of each Rune, much as we'd talk about more specific deities or subrunes) it's just that they are at once manifestations of impersonal forces, Zzabur's fellows, and gods; and the wizards don't care about any contradictions.

 

I think it's interesting as it incorporates the anthropomorphization and living genealogy of theism into the runic devolution (which is basically Platonic idealism). There are names and implications of agency. 

Anyway, that's not the main topic of the thread, I just think it's interesting how much it humanizes the otherwise analytical schemae of Zzabur, even if you have to slightly read between the lines. I'm always a bit uncertain as to how continental Malkionism (Rokari, Hrestoli, etc.) treat these things, since sometimes the "orthodox" version we get of Malkioni views is in fact the Brithini one, which is pretty far removed from how most mortal Malkioni view things. 

(Also it's interesting to see Flamal and Hykim mentioned as twins of Earth and Sea. Form runes emerging from elemental runes. Beast and Plant as siblings rather than a twin pair of gendered Beasts. And nowhere mentioned is Sky, even though we know of Sky-plants and Sky-beasts. Curioser and curioser - if perhaps a bit of a too literal intepretation.)

Edited January 7, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Mirza]

We are given some indications of where the Xeotam Dialogues are from, S_G. They're specifically called out as using the "archaic Fornaorian titles for the Elementals, instead of the more widely God Learner titles." This means that they're using the same names of the gods as the Fornaoli, one of the tribes of the Enerali. The Fornaoli were a tribe located in Tanisor, up to the southwestern side of Guhan, but were either converted to Hrestolism or had their land taken by the Silver Empire in the Dawn Era, and forced east.

Also helpful in locating the Xeotam Dialogues origins, we should consider what branch of Malkionism Xeotam proscribes to. Here's a quick quote from Jeff "The Rokari (who are strongly influenced by Brithini materialism) believe that this discussion of rebirth is meaningless – your ONLY chance at having an afterlife is by strict adherence to your caste duties and restrictions – the Solace of harmony with the Invisible God." As this conflicts directly with Xeotam's discussion of the afterlife and resurrection, I do not think that Xeotam was a Rokari. But considering how the Xeotam Dialogues are shown as presenting a rather conventional Malkioni school of thought (enough to be widely popular among more conventional Malkioni) I am not quite willing to say that Xeotam is an Arkati sorcerer. Taking into consideration all of this, I think Xeotam is probably a post-GL Hrestoli Zzaburi.

All this evidence together leads me to think that the Xeotam Dialogues take place in most likely in western Safelster, or less likely eastern Seshnela.

I forgot my link to Jeff's quote: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/archive-of-of-old-glorantha-discussions-on-moondesign-com/malkioni-culture/

Edited January 7, 2020 by Mirza

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Xeotam is a golden sources of ideas . . . I'd love to see it actually given a social and cultural context

From internal geographic cues I'd say the core text comes out of Tanisor in the last few decades before the Ban (1480-99). I love it too. As you point out, it's not entirely compatible with "Zz-b-r Says" . . . the ideas have apparently evolved enough to justify a different technical vocabulary. It's almost as if the blue man didn't actually Know Everything all those centuries ago like his people proclaimed. 

EDIT @Mirza I hear you. Odds are very good Xeotam is from Ralios so that's where his magical understanding was probably shaped . . . my only qualm is that by the time he gets to work with Aamor, Ralios has become "that land," somewhere non local.

Of course the paranoid could say that Xeotam is only allowed to remain in print as a kind of disinformation spread among "educated Malkioni" to waste their time and conceal the inner workings of sorcery. However, in that case its inclusion as an exhibit in the Sourcebook is only going to mislead new fans as well, which nobody wants. An enigmatic document. An early Jonstown contributor concluded that the historical Xeotam was completely insane.

I want to talk about horses along with bulls and bears (too slow) but want to linger for a minute on the "srv" root word that denotes the elemental intelligences we call "gods" in the barbarian belt. Srvuali, Srvuela ("the Spike"), Soruvela land of Soruve (the zzaburite devil). This is the land also identified in historical times with the continental interior, sometimes Kethaela (a volcanic land "teeming with krjalki") and sometimes what looks more like Dorastor on the far side of Nida. 

We also see it of course among the serevings and our new friend Seravus the Enchanter. There are no linguistic coincidences in a civilization where words are power. To get to "Srvuela" from the archaic west you need to go past, through or near Seravus.

So I nosed around a little more in a few of the other archaic texts for primal beast references.

"Orlanth's Battles Against the Sea" is an unusually structured document knotted together with blue dragons. It's relevant to us now because "The First Beast War was waged at this time. Orlanth and his brothers exterminated many creatures that came from the minds of sorcerers, [i.e. chimerical or "hybrid" forms?] and kept their own favorites."

Then there are these fragmentary details:

"Lord of Beasts: Orlanth's opponent in the Beast Gamble. Orlanth won every time but once, and so took many useful animals for his descendants, including bulls, boars, cocks, and rams."

"During the Gods War Yinkin had to make a hard choice between his various kin. When the Beast Wars began the Serpentbeast Brotherhood seized Yinkin and demanded that he join them or else they would kill him. Orlanth swept through Orandaro until he found Yinkin, and crashed through the barrier and saved him. Orlanth made no demands and asked only for fraternal duty. Later on the Brotherhood seized Yinkin again and demanded that he follow only his father, the great beast spirit Fralar, but Yinkin was loyal to Orlanth and called for the Thunderer, who appeared and freed Yinkin again. That was when Yinkin decided to be a god and not a spirit and incurred the wrath of all the spirit creatures. The Brotherhood mustered all the hsunchen and invaded again, trying to seize all of the game animals to take away. Yinkin fought tooth to tooth and claw to claw with Telmor, and he kept many creatures alive in Dragon Pass because he and his followers defeated the Brotherhood."

"Andal. A land to the southwest. It is inhabited by terrible beasts and hsunchen, as well as hostile Helerings." 

Also there were "deep snakes," powerful monsters of the Serpent Beast Brotherhood purged by Babeester . . . the only good snakes are mom's snakes, apparently. 

Who is the Brown Dragon? Which "snake" calls the tune of the snakepipe?

Edited January 7, 2020 by scott-martin

[Tindalos]

43 minutes ago, Mirza said:

We are given some indications of where the Xeotam Dialogues are from, S_G. They're specifically called out as using the "archaic Fornaorian titles for the Elementals, instead of the more widely God Learner titles." This means that they're using the same names of the gods as the Fornaoli, one of the tribes of the Enerali. The Fornaoli were a tribe located in Tanisor, up to the southwestern side of Guhan, but were either converted to Hrestolism or had their land taken by the Silver Empire in the Dawn Era, and forced east.

Also helpful in locating the Xeotam Dialogues origins, we should consider what branch of Malkionism Xeotam proscribes to. Here's a quick quote from Jeff "The Rokari (who are strongly influenced by Brithini materialism) believe that this discussion of rebirth is meaningless – your ONLY chance at having an afterlife is by strict adherence to your caste duties and restrictions – the Solace of harmony with the Invisible God." As this conflicts directly with Xeotam's discussion of the afterlife and resurrection, I do not think that Xeotam was a Rokari. But considering how the Xeotam Dialogues are shown as presenting a rather conventional Malkioni school of thought (enough to be widely popular among more conventional Malkioni) I am not quite willing to say that Xeotam is an Arkati sorcerer. Taking into consideration all of this, I think Xeotam is probably a post-GL Hrestoli Zzaburi.

All this evidence together leads me to think that the Xeotam Dialogues take place in most likely in western Safelster, or less likely eastern Seshnela.

I forgot my link to Jeff's quote: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/archive-of-of-old-glorantha-discussions-on-moondesign-com/malkioni-culture/

Ahah, thanks for reminding me of the well, there's the old website version of the dialogues there, with some more detail: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha/the-xeotam-dialogues/

"Today’s posting is a rare treat – a fragment of the Xeotam Dialogues, that proved so popular amongst the Western sorcerers in the later Third Age. The date of the original Dialogues are believed to be circa 1480, although this particular copy is dated from 1618. The Dialogues are between the master wizard Xeotam and his young Ralian apprentice Aanor. Three cities boast of being the site of the original Dialogues, as Xeotam resided in (or near) those cities in the late 15th century: Azilos, Dangk, and Arnlor. High Watcher Theoblanc is known to own a collection of these Dialogues (which first became popular in his youth)."

So Azilos, Dank, or Arnlor as origins, which are western Safelster/northern Tanisor. But at Xeotam's time, all three would be ruled by Seshnela (as they'd been conquered 25 years earlier), and likely under the Rokari School.

[scott-martin]

Bull people for bull markets . . . much of the development around the bull people of the northwest has happened on these forums so textual evidence is surprisingly scarce. (If any western scholar of Greg's acquaintance in the 1960s made more than a casual study of these people, it sadly hasn't reached me.) I'm sure specialists will correct my lapses fast and furiously. Let's see how we dance around the horns:

On 1/1/2020 at 2:24 PM, Tindalos said:

The Enjoreli are described as a confederation or tribe of Tawari (GtG 199, 222. Or vice versa 211)

KefTavar may have "wandered" from the distant West in order to attend the Lord of Beasts conference at Mount Dabur, leaving bull people behind to develop independently as the Tawarites. But we know that he brings Esus back to "his people" and his heirs end up in Worian/Vanstal, so I think it's more likely that the far western bull tribes are the product of a more extensive Elesdandrian diaspora than previously surmised. Either way, you end up with a theoretical "bull belt" at the Dawn stretching from the Ozur to Pelanda and supporting cultural exchange, revival and "recognition." Looking objectively, I have rarely sounded more like a crazy person than in this paragraph. Maybe we up the ante.

The fate of the eastern bull peoples is already known. In the west, the Tawarites seem to have earned their special place by preserving a more direct continuity with some archaic (Kef)Tavar complex . . . but the real heart of the confederation seems to be on the other side of the Ozur where you get the Jorri / Jora / Jarins nomenclature as well as Basol. My guess is that EnJORA becomes a condominium between the tribes early on if it doesn't start that way. Maybe the Tawarites don't really dominate until the Akemites force their way into the region and pull the Janube down from the Sweet Sea where their bad blue cousins happen to give the eastern bull people so much trouble. Two blue peoples. Two bull peoples. A story that may rhyme or even overlap. 

(Judging from survivals in Thantom (the heart of Jora country) boar survivals weave in early and then feed into the Drona ancestral complex.)

Now the Enjorelites remain a problem for the children of Malkion well into the terminal First Age, raiding down into Arolanit at least as late as the reign of Palangtar (286-291). In the archaic texts a bull-riding force persists long enough to factor into Talor's northern war on Gbaji. They call themselves the Losk-Alim and that's where we get the name of the modern kingdom. Other bull people evidently settle down and recognize the compensations of storm worship or "civilized" sorcery. Logic Beats Spirit. Valsburg becomes a prison for bull gods.

While formally a "hsunchen" beast nation at the Dawn they never seem to bother with the familiar lycanthropic/ecstatic rites. Their "alliance" with the hykimites ("snake masters") to the east often seems more a matter of strategic convenience than shared religious conviction. On a day-to-day level, the Dawn Age beast peoples of the interior found the bull people terrifying and would only challenge the Enjoreli out of desperation. We know this from the memoir of a  member of the "Redeli" (a semi-orlanthized bear nation) recorded in the reign of Sonmalos.

One thing that's interesting about the fragmentary sources we have for Eleven Beasts survival cultures (Jonatsaga, for example) is the persistence of Hykim or Hikim this far to the west. As with the Pendalite origin myth, the beast is father and a local earth is mother. Snaky mother, tree mother. At the Dawn these are tree mother people, not yet differentiated from the forest. A distinct feminine "Mikyh" is absent except in the Korgatsu of the far east and the inner hermaphroditic mysteries of the Orggee Snake Caves. 

I don't know if any indigenous dragon presence persisted here into the Dawn or afterward. My gut tells me that snake mastery was never more than a foreign overlay north of Nida, possibly coming up from Vustria through the wolf belt or from "the moon's meeting" described in Entekosiad 37. MGF leads me in the second direction by giving us a more complex historical expression of beast consciousness. Besides, the Entekosiad reference is supremely weird as well as cool because it also creates a pathway for lunar precursors west into the Janube valley. We know Jonat's people acknowledged scattered moon goddesses. This is how a moon gets in underneath what becomes Carmania to wreck that empire. Seven days in the telmorite cycle.

So maybe the hykimite snake masters also preserved the otherwise lost mysteries of "crab, mantis and cicada" as well as the Pelandan "dragonewts" who only appear at this point in the Entekosiad and then never again, except maybe as part of that "whole tribe of humans" who fill in for the dragon people after Nysalor breaks the Council. I knew they went west and ultimately link up with the Vustrians. But to get there, maybe some lingered in the bull belt and taught things now lost everywhere else.

All of this lore undoubtedly fascinated Black Hralf the Weasel. But it's essential to modern understandings of Carmania as well. This was not some empty void waiting for Syranthir to cross in desperation because suddenly there was enough food for a migrating army. Arkat himself did not consider this route. This was a cultural corridor filled with ghosts and echoes that anyone with Losk-Alimite blood in his veins would have heard if not recognized. This is where bull shahs come from. This is how you find the weapons and/or magical instruments you need to defeat a blue man under the sea. This is why Syranthir goes to the east, to answer the riddle of Sog. And this is ultimately why the Arrolites retrace his steps walking backward like all angels of history. 

And what happens to the eastern bull people is that they get rolled up into the proto-Spolite Land of Shadows cast out of the emerging Bright Empire. "After they left there was a whole tribe of humans who worshiped the Darkness, and who ate raw meat and did other disgusting and inhuman things to prove they were troll-worthy." There are no dragonewts or hsunchen in modern Peloria and few true troll enclaves. So it goes. But once upon a time the bull riders were friends of the Andam Horde along with lion brothers (extinct in modern Peloria) and skin walkers. And once upon another time in Worian KefTavar was crowned king over the lion, the bear and the deer, not to mention signifying monkey, the fool of the forest.

Edited January 11, 2020 by scott-martin
a few flourishes

[Tindalos]

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Either way, you end up with a theoretical "bull belt" at the Dawn stretching from the Ozur to Pelanda and supporting cultural exchange, revival and "recognition." Looking objectively, I have rarely sounded more like a crazy person than in this paragraph. Maybe we up the ante.

Further.

When the Andam Horde attacked Pelanda, they were accompanied by bull riders, likely the ancestors of the northern bull people. And not for nothing did the Brolians who took ruled Talsardia (now Charg) have Praxian allies.

They may have stretched as far as the Shan Shan, given the ancient western name for the hoofed animal mother (Eiritha/Uralda/Busenari) was Lofak.

[scott-martin]

59 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Further.

Always further until after we hit Furthest! Yeah, this is open to a much wider primeval bull zone that sooner or later connects up with the Waha covenant and the East. The persistence of Tawar/Tavar at these two points is striking . . . especially because the Entekosiad is one of the few sources that provide clear geographic markers for something like the origin if we accept that KefTavar really returned "to his people" after the abduction. 

Of course KefTavar is not necessarily the First Bull but in the absence of a common ancestor with an established geographic reference I'd lean toward his people being the origin in the northwest and the Tawarites bearing that particular expression of the cult all the way to the far side of the Ozur. (The Anaxial's Roster reference feels like an Ocron-era simplification.) Maybe they followed their herds all the way across the continent and the rites mingled with yak people and others. 

And naturally the Council either knew what it was doing or got extremely lucky sending Praxians up as "missionaries." We've all heard the hints that Lightbringer conversions up here had a strong urox component and then the version of "Orlanth" that initially flourished in the north might well have ended up looking more like Tarumath anyway. Jonatsaga only notes that "Humakt (Resant) is the storm god, having little else to make him stand out."

In a revisionist "hsunchen" material culture model it's revealing that the Tawarites are singled out in the Guide for their architectural record, the "enclosures of earth and wood" that I don't think they have in Prax or the Shan Shan but are probably the sacred corral/villages emblematic of the Bisos rites. Not exactly living in caves. On the other hand, the presence of something like Peaceful Cut spirituality is not only obvious here (a parallel Covenant with its own culture hero) but seems to capture one of the enduring mysteries of the Fronelan literature, the "ultimate rite" of the religion of the Loskamite kings teased in the Genertela box. The King Must Die. Long Live The King. Bisos knows mysteries of life, death, sacrifice and resurrection that don't seem to survive in the Praxian expression . . . but probably persisted into what the Losk-Alim retained and built on.

There's been talk about Waha being the god of butchers up here. Maybe his role is even more complex. We'll find out.

Looking back at the Bisos material I'm starting to think that SerArba's bull "dance" is probably the way they express the hsunchen lycanthropic theme: not as a transformation but as a temporary transference resulting in hybrid forms. The bull rises and prophesies. The man receives horns like Morak in Cults of Prax. This might be the root of what "beast folk" like minotaurs are all about. (Like the minotaurs and more familiar storm bulls, the Enjoreli are noted in archaic texts as berserkers. So, interestingly enough, are the various lion peoples.) Multiple beast relationships that once might have been distinct but got monomythed.

Given the profound symbolism here for Carmanian traditionalists I wonder if this the real reason some lunar faction or another collects throwbacks.

[Tindalos]

43 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Looking back at the Bisos material I'm starting to think that SerArba's bull "dance" is probably the way they express the hsunchen lycanthropic theme: not as a transformation but as a temporary transference resulting in hybrid forms. The bull rises and prophesies. The man receives horns like Morak in Cults of Prax. This might be the root of what "beast folk" like minotaurs are all about. (Like the minotaurs and more familiar storm bulls, the Enjoreli are noted in archaic texts as berserkers. So, interestingly enough, are the various lion peoples.) Multiple beast relationships that once might have been distinct but got monomythed.

Okay, time to get a little wild here, and some rampant speculation is involved.

Just as it's been clarified that the Galanini were not "true" hsunchen/hykimi but merely associated with them by others, I'd like to suggest that the Tawari/Enjoreli/Lofak are similar. They're what may be called an Orlanthi people, although Orlanth is a very distant figure to them, instead worshipping the Storm Bull, his mother, his wife, and his son. While Minotaurs are sacred to them, they lack the traditional shapeshifting magic, and likely would only be able to transform through summoning Bull Spirits.

My guess is there may have been a wide bull belt -- or if you'll forgive me, an ur-culture -- many of whom got absorbed into the local peoples as they needed to, learning to ride horses instead of bulls, and settling. Others changed in other ways, possibly even the praxians with their beasts as well.

There's also a likely connection to the Barntar cult. One of the early Orlanthi events given in KoDP and SKoH is Barntar taming the Bull and harnessing oxen to plough fields. This strikes a chord with the mythology of Bisos' father, KefTavar, whose brother was castrated and so in vengeance KefTavar hardens the ground to make them reliant on Brother Ox.

The real heresy is to suggest that many Orlanthi peoples were similar, with totem storm beasts associated with mountains, such as rams, etc. Most were recognised as facets of Orlanth after the dawn thanks to the Theyalans, but Storm Bull survived because his specific role as chaos foe was so useful.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Okay, time to get a little wild here, and some rampant speculation is involved.

Just as it's been clarified that the Galanini were not "true" hsunchen/hykimi but merely associated with them by others, I'd like to suggest that the Tawari/Enjoreli/Lofak are similar. They're what may be called an Orlanthi people, although Orlanth is a very distant figure to them, instead worshipping the Storm Bull, his mother, his wife, and his son. While Minotaurs are sacred to them, they lack the traditional shapeshifting magic, and likely would only be able to transform through summoning Bull Spirits.

My guess is there may have been a wide bull belt -- or if you'll forgive me, an ur-culture -- many of whom got absorbed into the local peoples as they needed to, learning to ride horses instead of bulls, and settling. Others changed in other ways, possibly even the praxians with their beasts as well.

There's also a likely connection to the Barntar cult. One of the early Orlanthi events given in KoDP and SKoH is Barntar taming the Bull and harnessing oxen to plough fields. This strikes a chord with the mythology of Bisos' father, KefTavar, whose brother was castrated and so in vengeance KefTavar hardens the ground to make them reliant on Brother Ox.

 

  Hide contents

The real heresy is to suggest that many Orlanthi peoples were similar, with totem storm beasts associated with mountains, such as rams, etc. Most were recognised as facets of Orlanth after the dawn thanks to the Theyalans, but Storm Bull survived because his specific role as chaos foe was so useful.

 

Yup, similar ideas came up in my "Para-Orlanthi/ Storm Peoples" thread. It's my impression that the early Storm Peoples arrived through human-animal symbiosis/mutual reliance. Specifically, they are almost always, to my knowledge, associated with grass-eating (and possibly browsing) mammal herd animals and so follows their (at least initial) pastoralist lifestyle and civilizations (Exceptions are Odaylans are the presence of Yinkin, mostly it seems). In the Storm Age and onwards, Orlanth may have only been one of several Storm Gods with complex societies formed around their animal totem (or theistic symbol, rather), and while I generally tend to say that early Orlanth was primarily a Ram god, I suspect that pointing out direct connections to modern Orlanthi gods and Storm Age gods might not always match perfectly. Anyway, we have the ordeeds and the rams and the bulls and probably others as well. 

And when we're speaking of a Bull belt, let's not forget the bull people who invaded Pamaltela in the God Time. Perhaps this implies that there were large areas of land in the West now sunk under water that would make up a missing link with missing Bull peoples. We don't really hear of them, though.

On the topic of Bisos/Waha: The role of butcher can pretty easily be expanded to the role of chief sacrificer, and by extension high priest. Taking a life in the correct manner, and sending its spirit away, and its scent to please and feed the gods is a powerful symbol present in RW religions. It's also a potent "secular"/temporal role, as the one who butchers/sacrifices might also get to decide who gets the choice pieces of meat, and who must wait their turn. Not so different from the English word "lord" ("hlaford" - "loaf-giver", ie. dispenser of food). 

As mentioned elsewhere, I think Prax represents somewhat of an extreme "refinement" of the Storm Bull role as the berserker and killer of Chaos. This was locally necessary for survival. I think it's likely that the Bull Belt peoples will have somewhat of a more nuanced image of KefTavar/Tawar/Bull Father. Though to be fair, Praxians also note his importance in fathering the herd animals. The question is whether northwestern Bull People partake in the Chaos-slaying aspect to a significant degree. I say "degree" since Charg appears to be implied to be royally pissed off at the Lunars once they are freed, so there might be something there. But as much as post-apocalyptic Prax? Methinks not quite.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

While I agree that both the Enerali and the Enjoreli are likely to be pastoralists rather than hunter-gatherers, and thus culturally not Hykimi/Hsunchen, I am a lot less convinced that they don't share the same ancestors as the shape-changing Hykimi all around them.

There is a definite Bullbarian belt stretching from the Ozur Bay at least into Brolia, but I don't see that much evidence for Tawar being responsible for every single moo west of Kahar's Sea of Fog. Modern East Ralios have semi-nomadic cattle herders in Keanos and Saug, converts do Lightbringer ways some time in the Dawn Age, but possibly only later than the Enerali of Hrelar Amali. Would the ancestors of the people in Keanos and Saug have been cattle hykimi? Would they have been a splinter group of the Galanini not belonging to any of the four Enerali tribes? Would they have been immigrants from the Pelorian bull belt coming in through Karia? Possibly in the aftermath of the Battle of Eleven Beasts?

Cattle sacrifice in Dara Happa may have only been introduced as the local gazzam faded into extinction. For all we know, the Dara Happan gazzam could have been giant Moas - Rinliddi with its ancient avilry is just around the river bend. Cattle shouldn't have been present prior to Umath's (and possibly Storm Bull's) birth. Elementally, mammals are beasts of Storm. But then, there are exceptions - the earliest humans predated the birth of Umath if the God Learners weren't completely wrong, and the ancestral Hsunchen beasts are claimed to have witnessed the birth of the universe at the deeds of Earthmaker. While the four standard beasts (of the Ancient Beasts Society in Ralios) all are somehow water-related, Otter was a mammal the last time I checked.

 

The absence, then raising of the Nidan Mountains is a milestone in the history of the Hykimi in both Ralios and Fronela. I wonder whether there were two land goddesses before the Vadeli rebellion, or whether the two regions were united under a single goddess. With Seshna, they met a land goddess oriinally from the Enjoreli portion of Danmalastan, but probably uninhabited by any ancient Malkioni prior to the founding of Neleoswal, Frowal and the Arolanit city states (Laurmal et al).

 

I am still somewhat hesitant to posit a rivalry between tectonic and plant goddesses of the land.

In Hrestol's Saga Hrestol has a friendly and almost romantic encounter with a plant goddess (daughter of Jorestl, the forest lord of southern Seshneg) on his way to slaying Ifttala Likita, and prior to that he meets a diminutive crone who offers him a bite of one of the apples of Flamal, aka the fruit of Immortality, which elevates his status from mortal to (at least temporary) god-like status. Ifttala apparently doesn't know about this upgrade, or she would have used her dwarf bodyguard against Hrestol rather than daring him to thrust his sword at her, relying on her innate magic to protect herself from this upstart mortal. Both these benefactors of Hrestol are earth entities.

In Hrestol's subsequent confrontation with an enraged and grief-struck Seshna, he receives no reply why that greater goddess had done nothing to prevent him from performing is assassination. I wonder whether that crone passing the Apple of Flamal to Hrestol may have been Seshna herself, in a disguise or different guise, compelled by some greater mythic cycles to aid and abet the death of her daughter.

 

Both the great western forest and the bones of the land are what creates the notion of home for the western Hykimi. The Nidan uprising separates the northern Hykimi frm the southern ones. In both places, pastoralism and early agriculture create a people apart, possibly before the arrival of the Kachasti, possible triggered by contact with these Logicians.

 

Seravus the Enchanter knows the secret of communicating with the Hykimi and their beasts, and he extends the magic of that secret to the livestock of the Vingkotlings in the prequel to the Plundering of Aron. This event occurs late enough in the Vingkotling era that the Nidan Uprising ought to be over and done with.

There is this "shapechange into beast form" myth of the western hill barbarians in Anaxial's Roster. They are facing an evil sorcerer (or a nation of those). Identification of the evil Logicians remains hard - could have been any out of the Akemites of the Citadel of Brass, the Kachisti allies of Brithos, their Vadeli hostages (later overloards and slave masters), or the riverine Waertagi who create the Janube, Poralistor and Oronin rivers and the Sweet Sea and Lake Oronin. Myths about this are all over Entekosiad and in the Guide description of the origin of Sog City. Note the parallels between the creation of the Citadel of Brass in Sog and the origin of Lake Oronin and Castle Blue in Pelanda.

The peoples who retain their Hykimi status past their encoutner with  the Bright Empire don't seem to have either hostile or friendly myths about the Enchanter, at least not north of the Nidan range.