Characteristic Limits

[JustAnotherVingan]

Just been reading the rules on characteristic increases (p418 RQG).

SIZ and INT you're stuck with what you roll, short of geasa, divine intervention etc.

The rest can all be improved. For DEX the limit is what you started with X1.5 or species max, for STR, CON, POW and CHA the limit is species max.

Given how long training characteristics takes and how much it costs I don't think I'm going to see many characters wandering around with a string of 21s. Is it really useful to keep the extra limit on DEX when those on STR, CON and CHA have been dropped?

[French Desperate WindChild]

I disliked too the previous rules (STR CON share their max: the max of STR / CON / SIZ, DEX x1.5 with no max as I remember)

I understand the why of INT and SIZ don't change (ok you can become fat or shorter with time :p)

The new max for STR / CON seems better

But there is still the x1.5 for DEX and for DEX only. Is it for describe the max potential of a body ? (but that the same for STR irl, for example)

As I play, i don't use the x1.5 rule. But as the end of the day, uou re right : the cost/time to train characteristic is a good limitation too

 

[Richard S.]

I normally ignore both the non-species max characteristic caps and the unchangability of INT and SIZ. It doesn't change how the game works too much, and it gives some more hope to those with crappy starting stats.

[JustAnotherVingan]

Yeh. I think I'll ignore the X1.5 initial DEX as a max.

I don't intend my players to get so much money they can train everything to max even if they ignore training anything but characteristics but if someone decides to concentrate on getting really good in 1 stat I don't think it'll ruin the game.

[HreshtIronBorne]

Once players get to Rune-Lord status there are bound to be some getting to maximum stats. Between Divine Intervention being relatively efficient with the built in POW gain rolls from leading worship and the possibilty for some cults to go bonkers with Gifts/Geasa there is a definite possibility of Maximum, if not Superhuman statistics. Especially once HeroQuesting rules comes out. 

[Shiningbrow]

Or shamans. They could ask for such abilities. POW is already given as a standard +1 to species maximum. No good reason why other stats couldn't also be improved. And I'd suggest that's the quickest and easiest from the start (ie, quicker and easier than getting to Rune Lord and saving up a bunch of Rune Points).

Yes, I know the Soul Expansion is only for increased maximum - not increased attribute. But, again, no good reason why the attributes themselves couldn't be affected. 

[g33k]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or shamans. They could ask for such abilities. POW is already given as a standard +1 to species maximum. No good reason why other stats couldn't also be improved.

I think shaman's relationship with POW is particular, and there IS a "good reason" why other stats aren't so easily improved.

YGMV, of course.

[Mugen]

38 minutes ago, g33k said:

I think shaman's relationship with POW is particular, and there IS a "good reason" why other stats aren't so easily improved.

YGMV, of course.

Yes, in RuneQuest POW has a special status when compared to other BRP games, as it is both a characteristic and a pool of "super magic points" used to fuel enchants, gain Runic magic and limit one's ability to store Magic Points.

[g33k]

9 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Yes, in RuneQuest POW has a special status when compared to other BRP games, as it is both a characteristic and a pool of "super magic points" used to fuel enchants, gain Runic magic and limit one's ability to store Magic Points.

It has also long been one of the most-variable stats, easy to gain & easy to lose.

I don't find a similar treatment for INT or SIZ to be satisfying.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I think POW is easy to gain because you have to burn it, as described by @Mugen

[JustAnotherVingan]

Also of course it is closely connected to a shamen's role. I can perhaps see a case for a shamen being able to increase CHA in a similar way but not anything else (and not as much or easily as POW).

Heroquests and Gifts are ways for heroes to transcend mortal limits. I don't think the rules for Characteristic training and limits are in the same category.

[SwordAndSpear]

New to the system, but can already see how important POW is.

For my own campaigns I am going to use a simple formula that will allow my players some customization and random-chance, but let us jump right into it.

It seems to me there are two types of methods to survive long enough in RuneQuest- either start out with some decent physical stats and train your butt off to perfect your combat skills, or invest heavily in POW if you're not the physical-type. Either way players will ultimately come to rely on another person for support and both magic and runes to take on the most dangerous of enemies in combat.

Me personally I like the idea of very much mortals taking on the demigods and immortals of Glorantha if not only to do their bidding and earn their favor. ⚔️

[g33k]

10 minutes ago, SwordAndSpear said:

... It seems to me there are two types of methods to survive long enough in RuneQuest- either start out with some decent physical stats and train your butt off to perfect your combat skills ...

Physical stats really aren't terribly critical; they don't add all that much.

Combat skills out of character generation are typically in the 85% range (+/- 5 or 10 %) and "good stats" don't make all that much difference.

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

I think shaman's relationship with POW is particular, and there IS a "good reason" why other stats aren't so easily improved.

YGMV, of course.

I consider there to be "no good reason not" because of the powers of the entity being appealed to. Sure, some can't (and given that, I'd also limit the availability of other abilities - as is already in RAW, because some abilities are "rare").

I'd suggest that INT and CHA would be two of the more obvious (expanding your mind and seeing things from a different perspective).

As for the physical stats, if you can self-ressurect, why couldn't the body be changed in other ways?

[Mugen]

16 hours ago, g33k said:

Physical stats really aren't terribly critical; they don't add all that much.

Combat skills out of character generation are typically in the 85% range (+/- 5 or 10 %) and "good stats" don't make all that much difference.

Well, having 20 Hit Points instead of 10 will make your life longer.

Even though in RQ you're likely to lose one limb or two before dying...

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

Even though in RQ you're likely to lose one limb or two before dying...

And maybe that should affect your SIZ...

"To cut down my weight, off came my left leg; I pass the swimming costume test..."

Edited January 14, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[soltakss]

On 1/12/2020 at 11:48 AM, JustAnotherVingan said:

The rest can all be improved. For DEX the limit is what you started with X1.5 or species max, for STR, CON, POW and CHA the limit is species max.

To be honest, species Maximum is a mess in the RQG Rules.

It keeps both the RQ2 and RQ3 Formula and the RQ3 Rolled Characteristic x 1.5.

it needs rewriting or carefully looking at, rather than kneejerk rulings.

i would use RQ2 Species Maximum for every Characteristic, but have physical ones that are increased past Original Stat x 1.5 being twice as difficult to increase, or increase half as quickly.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

To be honest, species Maximum is a mess in the RQG Rules.

It keeps both the RQ2 and RQ3 Formula and the RQ3 Rolled Characteristic x 1.5.

it needs rewriting or carefully looking at, rather than kneejerk rulings.

i would use RQ2 Species Maximum for every Characteristic, but have physical ones that are increased past Original Stat x 1.5 being twice as difficult to increase, or increase half as quickly.

I keep going back to HP's and SIZ.

I keep thinking, maybe re-work HP's.

Maybe swap the roles of "CON, with a minor mod for SIZ" to "SIZ, with a minor mod for CON"

Because really big critters need really big HP's, dammital!

(and yes, I do know the Mythras SIZ+CON formula for HP's)

 

I'm having a hard time forgetting the cray-cray notion I had, where your HP's were the BETTER OF the two ("CON, with a minor mod for SIZ"  -vs-  "SIZ, with a minor mod for CON")

Somebody, please... help me find my way back to sanity!

😅

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Somebody, please... help me find my way back to sanity!

 

It’s far too late for that, lad! I’m afraid there is only one thing left for you... become a game designer or a critic.

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

... or a critic.

Haven't you heard, Bill?

Everyone's a critic.

[Bill the barbarian]

and so’s me brudder!

[French Desperate WindChild]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

I keep going back to HP's and SIZ.

I keep thinking, maybe re-work HP's.

Maybe swap the roles of "CON, with a minor mod for SIZ" to "SIZ, with a minor mod for CON"

Because really big critters need really big HP's, dammital!

(and yes, I do know the Mythras SIZ+CON formula for HP's)

 

I'm having a hard time forgetting the cray-cray notion I had, where your HP's were the BETTER OF the two ("CON, with a minor mod for SIZ"  -vs-  "SIZ, with a minor mod for CON")

Somebody, please... help me find my way back to sanity!

😅

Big Mamma versus Bruce Lee, who has the best HP ?

My  advise for your sanity : go discuss with a god talker of the subcult Eurmal the psy

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/12/2020 at 6:44 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

But there is still the x1.5 for DEX and for DEX only. Is it for describe the max potential of a body? 

It's weird, particular, and old-fashioned. I ignore it.

[SwordAndSpear]

Well, I went ahead and created some generic templates. See attached for the first one. If you all want more I will send them out.

Might be easiest to just roll with what you give a person from beginning and work in additional experiences, training, etc. to include bonuses to attributes or skills. That seems the most practical way to create a more natural character limitation.

RuneQuestCharacterMaleTemplate1.pdf