Filichet and the Queen of Holay

[jeffjerwin]

I was just throwing together some ideas for a Seventh Wane campaign set in Saird/Holay (as it combines a lot of my favorite things, like Lunars, Orlanthi, contiguity to Balazar, etc.) and I was thinking about the Bell Temple.

So there are a few references to the 'bells of the Sun' being connected to the death of a Pure Horse king, and there was an unnamed bell goddess at Nivorah (according to Six Ages)... Is it not likely that the bells of the sun and the horse-goddess (as a member of the solar pantheon) are connected?

Also, in the Sourcebook Inkarne is identified with Reaches All, which contradicts the usual expectation that she was the Queen of Holay. However, we don't know the name of Phargentes' wife, and as he was apparently in exile in Holay until 1550, wouldn't it make sense if she was a daughter of the then queen? This would make Inkarne a descendant of the queen in the mid-16th century and probably a second cousin once removed of Inrana, the queen mentioned in the Guide.

It's also interesting that Orane - the name of the ancestress of the Forosilvuli -- appears in the same area as that ancient tribe as a cultural group close to Filichet in the Redline History maps, suggesting that by the Third Age the Forosilvuli descendants, like the Esrolians, had switched to a matriarchal structure. Maybe because of a similar catastrophe as the Helm and Shield - possibly the Dragonkill?

 

PS. I believe Harald Smith suggested that Holay derived from a post-EWF ruler (Holaya), but 'Holay' is mentioned as the name of the land where the Forosilvuli lived in the BoHM (and in TotRM 7) I think, and while that could be anachronistic, it might not be.

Edited January 13, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

PS. I believe Harald Smith suggested that Holay derived from a post-EWF ruler (Holaya), but 'Holay' is mentioned as the name of the land where the Forosilvuli lived in the BoHM (and in TotRM 7) I think, and while that could be anachronistic, it might not be.

I think that's an anachronistic use. The area traditionally was properly Saird. 

That said, there's always been a horse goddess association there (as is clearly seen in the Six Ages game) distinct from the Earth goddess of the region.

20 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Also, in the Sourcebook Inkarne is identified with Reaches All, which contradicts the usual expectation that she was the Queen of Holay. However, we don't know the name of Phargentes' wife, and as he was apparently in exile in Holay until 1550, wouldn't it make sense if she was a daughter of the then queen? This would make Inkarne a descendant of the queen in the mid-16th century and probably a second cousin once removed of Inrana, the queen mentioned in the Guide.

I don't think I got around to a genealogy of the Holayan queens, though I know Jeff and I were discussing Phargentes' wife back when we were figuring out the leading Lunar families.  I'll see if I can find my notes on that.

Otherwise, you may find this bit from notes that we were piecing together of use/relevance:

The Queen of Holay is High Priestess of Redaylda as well as queen, priestess of the Horse Goddess who the Pure Horse People call La-Ungariant. In Filichet (as well as in the Grazelands), the goddess has syncretized with her mother Ernalda and is often depicted as the Potnia Theron.

The cult is a very old one in Holay, allegedly dating back to the Hyalorings. It is not a "popular" cult, but an important state cult. She is the goddess of Saird; in some stories she was given this land by her storm god father (Orlanth or sometimes Vingkot), in other stories she came here after the destruction of her previous home and made this place hers. Both stories are acknowledged as true in Saird, often in the same ritual. Filichet is the center of the Redalyda cult.

The Queen of Holay serves as the chief priestess, commander-in-chief, and chief judge for the tribes and cities of Holay. She anoints the military commander for the Lunar province of Holay, who must fulfill the Tests of the Rider and serves for seven years.  Most commonly, this commander is the Chief Priest of the Temple of Yelm the Rider, but occasionally a Count of one of the Sun Dome temples. 

The queen receives an annual tribute from the cities and tribes of Holay, and in turn pays an annual tribute of silver, goods, slaves, and obedience to the Lunar Empire in the person of the Provincial Overseer, whose residence is in Mirin’s Cross, also within Holay. As a provincial queen, her decisions can be appealed to the Provincial Overseer in Mirin’s Cross, although that is an expensive, and thus rare, process.

The queen governs Holay with the assistance of a small council (or “ring”) of eminent Holayans, the Thirteen, some chosen by the queen, some by ancient tradition and oaths (e.g. the military commander is one). This council typical includes a mix of her advisors, royal companions, important cult leaders, generals, and representatives of the cities. The queen is served by royal scribes of the Irrippi Ontor cult (who have marginalized the scribes of the Lhankor Mhy temples).

Filichet, where the queen resides, is governed by an assembly, though many of the assembly are chosen or blessed by the queen.  The queen appoints the rulers for the cities of: Barnborn, Bostok, Fylliich Kwan, Holay Fort, and Thernan.  Most of these appointments require the consent of the Provincial Overseer as well.  The governor of Mirin's Cross, though, is appointed directly by the Provincial Overseer, is aided by a local assembly, and is responsible for day-to-day activities there, including the city militia.  The cities of Dolmisk, Dolsonin, and Dwernapple are governed by the high priestesses (queens) of their respective temples and have a traditional place on the council of the Thirteen.  The Sun Dome temples are governed by their Counts[H1]  and are allied with both the Queen of Holay and the Provincial Overseer.  They also have traditional places amongst the Thirteen.

The cities administer the local tribes and are variously ruled by a governor, duke, or queen, who governs with the assistance of local assemblies. The cities collect and pay a tribute of silver, livestock, and other goods, and levy militia to fight for the queen.  The cities and temples largely run themselves, but have obligations to the queen. If they refuse to follow her, they are in rebellion, which happens from time-to-time.

The queen is the commander-in-chief of the Holay Native Corps or whatever it gets called. Prior to 1625, I doubt it has actually mustered collectively since 1602. She's what unites them, she resolves disputes between the regiments. The queen hasn't actually made any active military decisions in generations beyond the level of putting a fort near the Elf Sea.

---

 [H1]Who are married to ‘Queens’ appointed by the Queen of Holay.  Two additional queens.  Adopted in the aftermath of the DK.

[jajagappa]

If useful, this was my sketch map for Filichet. 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by jajagappa

[jeffjerwin]

I think Barnborn is on the site of Berenstead (and may be the Barntar Sheaf of the story in Enclosure 2, given the next factum), from looking at the Guide, and that Filichet is very close to or is the site of the stead of Caranistrata the Red, overwife of Erigulf (Hardrinor is born there). 'Red' suggests that she was in fact herself a priestess of Reydalda. Uraklestead is probably Dolsonin, the later capital of the Barteri.

 

[jeffjerwin]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If useful, this was my sketch map for Filichet. 

It looks like Jeff Richard in his latest maps has moved Filichet slightly so it indeed abuts the lake.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

It looks like Jeff Richard in his latest maps has moved Filichet slightly so it indeed abuts the lake.

Yes, it is much closer now.  May not quite abut it, but fairly close.

I think I did the Filichet map close to 5 years ago now in the pre-RQG days when I was working on the concept of a Saird supplement for HQG.  Too many other projects at the moment for me to swing back to Holay and Saird.

[jajagappa]

Another piece that might be interesting to share though since you're asking about Holayan queens comes from the genealogy I put together for the most recent satraps of Sylila (i.e. the Errio-Unit).  There's a lot of intermarriage in these provincial lineages, particularly so they can claim descent from the Red Emperor. 

(And of course, Appius' involvement here is merely a Year-marriage.  He's been busy starting his own lineage in Mirin's Cross.)

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by jajagappa

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Another piece that might be interesting to share though since you're asking about Holayan queens comes from the genealogy I put together for the most recent satraps of Sylila (i.e. the Errio-Unit).  There's a lot of intermarriage in these provincial lineages, particularly so they can claim descent from the Red Emperor. 

(And of course, Appius' involvement here is merely a Year-marriage.  He's been busy starting his own lineage in Mirin's Cross.)

 

Noting that the Valare-Telsor line is also related to the Tarshite royal line...

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, it is much closer now.  May not quite abut it, but fairly close.

I think I did the Filichet map close to 5 years ago now in the pre-RQG days when I was working on the concept of a Saird supplement for HQG.  Too many other projects at the moment for me to swing back to Holay and Saird.

Well, I will attempt to move the needle on my part, even it's non-canon.

[jeffjerwin]

Looking at the above charts, why was there no attempt (that I know of) to preserve the Imther royal line? That Dwarf concessions seems like it was important.

[jeffjerwin]

Here's my timeline of events (unfinished and comments and corrections welcomed) from c.1330 or 2/29:

1330    Arim the Pauper crosses the Death Line from southern Holay [Filichet]. Note that Talfort is older than Tarsh.

Elmal is the still the primary sun/Lightfore god in Holay/Filichet.

Gwythar Longwise gathers many gods at Mirin’s Cross to oppose the Lunars. This becomes known as the Kynnelfing Alliance. The Kynnelfing tribe proper occupied the lands around the Sun Dome on the Jader River.

Martin Laurie in ‘Mitchuinn Moonhater’ (Enclosure 2) states that Kynnelfing, meaning ‘Black Spur’ was the fortress at the juncture of the Oslir and the Black Eel Rivers in Mirin’s Cross. This seems to contradict the maps in the Sourcebook, so we may substitute ‘opposite Mirin’s Cross’, i.e., northwest of the city. 

 

1346    Holay is defeated/cowed by the Conquering Daughter, who creates a crystal bridge to cross the Black Eel. (A year later the Kynnelfing/Cynnelfing Alliance surrendered). The Helmet of Perides [Periades of Vanch?] was surrendered by Filichet in tribute to Hwarin. The queen of Filichet is proclaimed Queen of Holay (an ancient name for the Forosilvuli lands).

 

1347    The Conquering Daughter enters Filichet, marking the final defeat of the Kynnelfing Alliance.

‘The Carving of Tarsh’ (Wyrms Footprints, p.22): ‘Others, however, claim that the 15,000 bastard sons and daughters who later founded the first of the Wild Sultanates had a part in convincing the natives to convert, and point out the four great Haunted Fields as their proofs. This invasion set another great migration in motion, which as far as Dragon Pass’.

 

1350    Mirin’s Cross’s Lunar city/colony is formally founded by Hwarin Dalthippa. It is equated with Nivorah by Lunar ritualists. It is the capital of Lunar Saird, which appears to be a colony of Sylila.

 

1358    Hwarin Dalthippa is murdered by No-Print.

 

1362    Battle of the Falling Hills: destruction of the Lunar army (and death of the Red Emperor) by the Earth Twins of Tarsh. Holay extends from the later site of Furthest, along the eastern side of the Oslir to ‘Holay Fort’ but excludes Fylich Kwan, Barnborn, and Mirin’s Cross (each part of Saird). [Note that Greg says that the Barteri actually formed after the Battle of Falling Hills, though this may be the evolution of a small tribe or clan into an overtribe.] The Barteri or Bartering tribe becomes independent of Holay, based in the small city of Dolsonin, at the border of Tarsh [and a client tribe of the King of Tarsh].

Tarsh raids along the Daughter’s Road as far as the Bridge of Phirmax [outside Jillaro].

 

1374    In the north, Sheng Seleris invades Peloria. The Opili cross the Black Eel close to Fylich Kwan (which presumably they either sacked or besieged), then the Oslir at Dolminsk, passing through the Ornore lands and the former territory of the Uitaros. The Opili Horse Nomads are defeated at Quintus Vale by the Lunars, and ‘barbarian allies’ (Tarsh and Holay).

Saird may have regained its independence around this time, as it is not included in the Empire in the Third Wane map.

 

c.1395 Talfort is the northern-most town of Tarsh, near the border with Holay (at Dolsonin). [Tarsh in Flames, p.4]

 

c.1440 Yarandros of Tarsh seized Holay, calling it ‘Old Tarsh’; it is likely he was aided by exiles from the Lunar conquest a hundred years earlier and kin who remained. The border was the Black Eel and Red Wyrm rivers, severing Mirin’s Cross and Fylich Kwan from Saird. Dwernapple was part of ‘Saird’ and Dolminsk part of Forantin (an Aggari kingdom). Dolsonin and its Barteri tribe is conquered by Yarandros.

During this era the Carafandoli were dwelling near Tarshford and Ever-New Glory. [Tarsh in Flames, p.6]

1445    Hon-Eel is born to Takenegi and a woman of Doblian.

 

1448    Death of Yarandros after he enters Tork.

 

1449    Last reported death of the original Takenegi, in Tork.

 

c.1450 The Sairdite ‘principalities’ are tributary to Tarsh. Filichet is part of Tarsh.

 

1458    A Sylillan army invades Saird and Holay and sacks Talfort in Tarsh.

 

1458-9 Saird and Holay are combined to form a Lunar client queendom called Holay (the head being the Queen of Filichet, priestess of Reydalda). The ruler is apparently intermarried with the Imperial bloodline [probably Hwarin-Ony]. This is a consolidation by the Sultan of Sylila, from parts of the Tarshite conquests a decade or two earlier.

 

1460    4/51    Magnificus defeats Sheng at the Battle of Kitor.

 

1490    Hon-Eel enters Tarsh. She weds Pyjeemsab, but he dies on their wedding night, leaving her pregnant with Phoronestes, who becomes king as soon as he is born.

 

1506    Magnificus and Hon-Eel are slain in the Night of Horrors.

 

1513    The Virishi clan is targeted by the Emperor’s tax demon for ‘cheating’; they seek to supplant the Hwarin-Ony in a vicious dart war. [see Sourcebook, p.182] (the phoneme Viri- is found also in King Sartar as the name of a Wind Child, suggesting that the Virishi shared the Hwarin-Ony’s Sylillan-Orlanthi origins).

 

c.1514 or 1519                        Kana-Telsor weds Phoronestes of Tarsh. Kana-Telsor is the [aunt?] of Arada-Telsor, the mother of Unitadas Errio and Kinikara Errio.

 

1522    Artifex disappears while on a mystical exploration. His successor is the debauched Voracius. The Endless Symposium begins in Glamour.

 

1526    Elkoi is occupied by Lunar and Holay forces. [Holay Fort is about sixty miles west of Elkoi].

 

1527    The emperor is attacked by the Jenet-aror family and ‘switches bodies’, returning at Hargoth as Venerabilis. The Jenet-aror family of First Blessed is proscribed and wiped out for this treason. The Jenet-aror were descendants of Dara Happa on Horse, and in 1527 they had been stripped of their rule over First Blessed (originally bestowed on them by Sheng Seleris) in favor of the MolariSor.

 

c.1530 eastern Aggar is annexed to Holay.

 

1535    Phoronestes, son of Hon-Eel, dies ‘suspiciously’. His successor is Philigos, ‘barely fifteen years old’.

 

1538    Palashee Long-axe overthrows the young Philigos and becomes king of Tarsh with the help of the Shaker Temple.

 

1539-1540      Dragonewt Dream. Probable activity at Nodnor in Holay.

 

1545                Phargentes, son of Kana-Telsor and Phoronestes, and younger brother of Philigos of Tarsh, is appointed Imperial Overseer of the Provinces. His capital is Mirin’s Cross in Holay.

 

1550-5             The Lunar army reinforced by the levy of Holay restores the Illaro dynasty, with Phargentes (son of Philigos) perhaps wed to a daughter of the Queen of Holay [like his successor Appius Luxius in 1586]. If so, this means that Inkarne (b.1605) is the second cousin once removed of Inrana, though she is also related through the Valar-Telsor clan.

 

1555    Phargantes is crowned King of Tarsh.

 

1558    Celestinus becomes the seventh Mask.

 

1561    6/44    The last member of the Hwarin-Ony clan is slain in a Dart Competition [see Sourcebook, p.183]. Unitadas Errio becomes Satrap of Sylila, after he is formally recognized by Celestinus. His consort of Karnetha the Balancer, a daughter of Artifex, and his father Perikostus of ErraCafol and mother Arada-Telsor are the children of Magnificus. Appius Luxius is born to the Mask known as Celestinus and Kinikara Errio, sister of Unitadas Errio, in ?Raibanth. [Harald’s chart]

 

c.1564             King Lornstal of Aggar is slain by Phargentes of Tarsh and it becomes a subject province of the Empire.

 

c.1570 Monrogh spreads the word of Yelmalio in Sartar.

 

1574    Celestinus dies and is succeeded by Militaris, a kinsman of Phargentes.

 

1582    7/11    Battle of Grizzly Peak. Unitadas Errio is succeeded by Pardidas Errio as satrap of Sylila.

 

1583    Great Shake destroys the fortress of Talfort. [Tarsh in Flames]

 

1586    7/15    Militaris dies and is succeeded by Reclusus. Appius Luxius, son of Celestinus and Kinikara Errio, is appointed Imperial Overseer, the chief administrator of the Empire in the Provinces, with his headquarters at Mirin’s Cross/Nivorah. [Harald’s chart]

 

1600    7/29    Death of Pardidas Errio. Odenandes Errio becomes satrap of Sylila. [Harald’s chart]

 

1602    7/31    Gormoral becomes King of Vanch.

 

1605-8 Tusk Raiders maraud throughout the region.

 

1612    Holay seizes southern Imther, including Hojasinestel and Soldier’s Ferry. It thus has hegemony over Saird, the lowland portion of the Laramites, the (former) Barteri and the Uitaros.

 

1613    7/42    Tusk Rider raid on Holay and Saird. Inrana becomes Queen of Holay. She is the daughter of Queen Argiskare of Holay and Appius Luxius.

 

In c.1615 the Queen of Holay is Inrana. She is unmarried. The Ornore or Orenair tribe has assimilated to Saird by this date, though it is divided between Enneal and Holay.

 

1625    Dragonrise. Appius Luxius, the father of Inrana, is slain at the Dragonrise, aged 64. Holay starts withholding levies from the Empire.

Tusk Rider raid.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

1448    Death of Yarandros after he enters Tork.

Death of Orios, his unmarried son. Yarandros died in 1440, and Quivini led by the King of the Colymar raid the city of Bagnot, stealing the Ivory Throne. Probably after Yarandros' death rather than causing it, but the sources don't say anything in detail.

 

  

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

1583    Great Shake destroys the fortress of Talfort. [Tarsh in Flames]

I wonder whether that is a twist of numbers. Destruction of Talfort in the 1538 rebellion, aided by the Shaker's Temple, gives a context for the Exiles being active this far north of their remaining lands.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Joerg

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Looking at the above charts, why was there no attempt (that I know of) to preserve the Imther royal line? That Dwarf concessions seems like it was important.

There were attempts! But the king was cursed - and neither Queen nor concubine would bear an heir. He proved to be the last of his line, and none know how to get the dwarfs to open the Brass Gates!

Of course, the only way to get the dwarfs to open the gates again is through Heroquesting to regain the concession in the God Time and also prove yourself an heir to the throne of Imther.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Kynnelfing, meaning ‘Black Spur’ was the fortress at the juncture of the Oslir and the Black Eel Rivers in Mirin’s Cross. This seems to contradict the maps in the Sourcebook, so we may substitute ‘opposite Mirin’s Cross’, i.e., northwest of the city. 

I'm not convinced of that - think that was just speculative as to the origin of the Kynnelfing name.  It's a tribal confederation that includes folk like the Laramites of southern Imther, some of the cities of Saird, the Holayans, and river folk.

8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Helmet of Perides [Periades of Vanch?] was surrendered by Filichet in tribute to Hwarin.

Yes, Periades of Vanch from the Battle of Day and Night in the First Age.

8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Mirin’s Cross’s Lunar city/colony is formally founded by Hwarin Dalthippa.

Mirin's Cross is older, not founded by Hwarin. It's the site of Urar Baar from the Dawn.  In the Second Age, it was known as Domanand. It became Mirin's Cross in the days of Verenmars, and was Verenmars' capital.  It's the heart of Saird.  Now, there was a revival in building there post-Hwarin so new temples, tall towers, and the like were all added.

8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

1358    Hwarin Dalthippa is murdered by No-Print.

i.e. Hwarin becomes a Goddess.

8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

The border was the Black Eel and Red Wyrm rivers, severing Mirin’s Cross and Fylich Kwan from Saird.

Most of Saird is along the river, both south and north, but where Mirin's Cross goes, so goes Saird. Otherwise you're dealing with Orlanthi tribes.

[jeffjerwin]

Who is Mirin? Is the Cross a death rune?

I meant to suggest that the Lunars rebuilt the city/refounded it. I get a real sense that the equation with Nivorah was done in part by rebuilding the site to be 'even more' Dara Happan (even though Verenmars founded it). The 'Overseer' position also seems to parallel the divine position held be Nemarthshar.

While initially I thought that it might be Tarsh, I think Urengari might be the Esrolian Sun realm, as Yarnadara of Elempur may be Ernalda. Harono/the Bright Emperor may have been Urengerum.

Since Holay and Aggar are the core sources of the Tarshite colonization of Dragon Pass, the name Elmal must have been in use for Lightfore as late as the 14th century around Holay. I am kind of suspicious of the present Holay-Saird culture as being anything but a Lunar synthesis, as Saird is clearly stated to have been heavily colonized by Lodrilli immigrants in later Wanes.

There's a lot of dog-god stuff going on in Saird, and immediately south of it, we have Yinkstead and the Yinkin cult in Tarsh, which suggests that there are some Holayan/Sairdite cultural markers that might be 'one or the other'. There would also be linguistic differences. All of this is papered over by New Pelorian and Lunar cults but it strikes me that the old Solar-Storm cultural boundary is going to keep popping up in the local politics. The enthronement of a queen over a cross-cultural cult (Ernalda-Nyalda) seems like it's a deliberate attempt to find a common ground, but it's interesting that the Lunars do not pursue the divide and conquer strategy (I suppose it's theologically difficult for them). But having an Earth queen as sacred ruler over this strategic lowland is going to backfire badly for them in the future...

What's interesting is that this solution was pursued apparently successfully by the Empire and then they manage to cock it up in a really disastrous way at Whitewall and later the Dragonkill - with Appius Luxius, who must have at least served as consort for the Holay Queen as the chart above suggests, being in the midst of this scheme. I'm referring to 'killing Ernalda', of course, and extending the Glowline before integrating Sartar into the Empire culturally, as well as ignoring the dragon thing, which the local Alakoring cult would have had a word in about.

Damaging Ernalda in Holay itself - look at p.731 of the Guide! - so that the priestess queen of Filichet can't even conduct her business is going to alienate her and her subjects. I can't imagine how angry Inrana was after that... (the Redaylda of Six Ages is a priestess of Ernalda, so while the Horse goddess is just that, she's pretty deeply interconnected with the Earth cult)

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I meant to suggest that the Lunars rebuilt the city/refounded it.

Found some other old notes from stuff Jeff and I discussed awhile ago, which notes Lunar colony getting settled there:

The Kynnelfing Alliance was a diarchy, with the queen at Filichet being responsible for magic and prosperity, and the male ruler at Mirin's Cross responsible for war and dealing with outsiders. This was modified by Hwarin Dalthippa, who founded a Lunar colony from the Heartlands at Mirin's Cross in 1350, with an overseer. This collapsed around 1400, when Filichet became a tributary of Tarsh and even Mirin's Cross allied with Dragon Pass for its survival. Lunar dominance was reestablished after 1460 and the central position of Mirin's Cross was revived in 1579, after the Provincial Government was moved from Furthest to Mirin's Cross. Appius Luxius, a son of the Red Emperor, was appointed Provincial Overseer in 1586 and served from 1586 to 1625.

20 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Who is Mirin? Is the Cross a death rune?

I feel like I had notes on both somewhere, but will have to hunt for.

21 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

There's a lot of dog-god stuff going on in Saird

It is the land of the Jajalarings after all! And where Jajagappa is worshipped.  Of course, originally, they were north of the Black Eel and the Berenetelli Orlanthi were to the south. 

23 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I'm referring to 'killing Ernalda', of course

that's the Assidays, not Appius Luxius, i.e. the Yelmic nobility and their Shargash allies.

[jeffjerwin]

7 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

that's the Assidays, not Appius Luxius, i.e. the Yelmic nobility and their Shargash allies.

I thought that Tatius reported to Appius Luxius. But maybe that was a formality?

[jajagappa]

5 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Tatius reported to Appius Luxius. But maybe that was a formality?

The Red Goddess, no! Tatius reports directly to the Red Emperor!

[jeffjerwin]

12 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Red Goddess, no! Tatius reports directly to the Red Emperor!

Well that clarifies things. In any case, undermining the rule of friendly Earth queens and Horse queens seems like a poor decision.

Edit: I now realize that reading the Guide late at night may lead to misreadings... like skipping the word "bypassing" on p.171

Edited January 16, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Found some other old notes from stuff Jeff and I discussed awhile ago, which notes Lunar colony getting settled there:

The Kynnelfing Alliance was a diarchy, with the queen at Filichet being responsible for magic and prosperity, and the male ruler at Mirin's Cross responsible for war and dealing with outsiders. This was modified by Hwarin Dalthippa, who founded a Lunar colony from the Heartlands at Mirin's Cross in 1350, with an overseer. This collapsed around 1400, when Filichet became a tributary of Tarsh and even Mirin's Cross allied with Dragon Pass for its survival. Lunar dominance was reestablished after 1460 and the central position of Mirin's Cross was revived in 1579, after the Provincial Government was moved from Furthest to Mirin's Cross. Appius Luxius, a son of the Red Emperor, was appointed Provincial Overseer in 1586 and served from 1586 to 1625.

A couple issues here that may need elucidation. Armies and Enemies, p.82, claims that the Provincial Government dated to 1545 and was based then in Mirin's Cross and derived from the need for a strategy to recover Tarsh. I suppose Phargentes, as he was Overseer as well as king, took the title with him to Furthest and it returned to Mirin's Cross on his death.

On p.165 of the Sourcebook the Kynnelfing Alliance excludes Filichet (though it does include Enneal and Fylich Kwan. And on p.154 the map shows Kynnelfing as an area north of Mirin's Cross not including either city. This is why I thought the Kynnelfing group was not attached to either city or their rulers, but came from middle Saird instead.

The names Fylich Kwan and Filichet seem to be etymologically linked, though I don't know what they could mean.

[jeffjerwin]

One curious note. 'Philekka' (which sounds awfully like Filichet and Fyllich) is cited in the Glorious ReAscent as a priestess of Dendara who betrayed Gestornus during his Ten Tests by 'leaving a door open', so that he was killed by a 'nomad king'. Philekka and 'her kin' are condemned, and she is said to have become a 'demon' after she was slain by her lover. This was in the year 111,111 (i.e., 110 years before Time, in the Grey Age, after the rising of Antirius/Lightfore). Philekka's 'betrayal' is closely connected to the Rebel Gods in the Fortunate Succession, and the nomad king is named as 'Dardaggus the Cannibal'. This may be a coincidence. Gestornus may be a Hyaloring.

If there is a connection between Philekka and Filichet, however, why would Verenmars name the city for her? Of course the name could be an epithet of the Earth goddess, and thus be transferred from Dendara/Nyalda/Ernalda to her worshipper.

[Joerg]

39 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

This was in the year 111,111 (i.e., 110 years before Time,

It was 111 S.T., within history. Of the Jenarong dynasty, the second emperor Gerruskoger/Horse on Table was the one who greeted the Dawn.

This wasn't so long after the Bridling of Kargzant, an event that involved Orlanth(i). Perhaps Queen Philekka might have been involved with that, before?

 

[jeffjerwin]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

It was 111 S.T., within history. Of the Jenarong dynasty, the second emperor Gerruskoger/Horse on Table was the one who greeted the Dawn.

This wasn't so long after the Bridling of Kargzant, an event that involved Orlanth(i). Perhaps Queen Philekka might have been involved with that, before?

 

Perfect.

Of course... I was counting from the Dara Happan reckoning of "History" beginning. The DHs seem to see it in two different ways... there's the 'help' Gerruskoger gives to make Kargzant run a regular path, and 'Lerustum the Killer' (Orlanth?) who defeats Shargash and binds him within Alkoth and Hell. And then under Huradabba appears, who was ruled by Vettebbe, 'a star god that escaped the conquering of his lord, Kargzant, by Orlanatus'... Vettebbe is defeated by Orlanatus and Antirius working together.

It is difficult to interpret this of course because of the way the Jenarong/Hyaloring emperors are represented by the Yelm cult.

Of course Antirius and Orlanatus working together is Elmal and Orlanth, but the later Tharkantus would seem to be Kargzant, or is he Lightfore astride Kargzant? In any case it makes a lot more sense that Philekka could be the eponym of Fylich Kwan and Filichet now, since they are sites in the Berenethtelli heartland. But as a composite Orlanthi-Hyaloring people their participation in the Dawn Age Dara Happa would cause inconsistencies.

I note Kagradus 'who borne away the Golden Eagle' in the HotHP; Kagradus is followed three reigns later by Venorl and Venharl, who ruled over Dara Happa after the battle of Argentium Thrile. One also notices that the dates don't match for Kordavu and that battle, though there some sort of nonsense about him sending away as friends the Council. But Kagradus' death seems to correspond to the fate of Kestinendos, 'Lord Bright Eagle' some twenty five years earlier in the DH timeline. Since Kestinendos is said to have died fighting the 'Monsters' that were promised Saird and Sylila, this shows the appearance of Saird within the First Council. These 'monsters' were allies of the same inchoate 'Nomads' that faced Gestornus.

[jeffjerwin]

In reference to the 'monsters' in Saird, we may note that one of the only facts we have concerning Fyllich Kwan is that its walls are decorated with reliefs of 'monsters'. These don't, presumably, date to the EWF period, because Nodnor to its north was obviously the EWF citadel in Saird.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

If there is a connection between Philekka and Filichet, however, why would Verenmars name the city for her?

I've never seen anything else connecting them. 

18 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

A couple issues here that may need elucidation. Armies and Enemies, p.82, claims that the Provincial Government dated to 1545 and was based then in Mirin's Cross and derived from the need for a strategy to recover Tarsh. I suppose Phargentes, as he was Overseer as well as king, took the title with him to Furthest and it returned to Mirin's Cross on his death.

The Lunars/Phargentes had lost control of Tarsh. Mirin's Cross would be the natural place for him to base his campaign to retake the kingdom. Furthest became the capital of Tarsh, so natural that where he was, so was the Provincial Government until his death.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

This is probably too obvious for everyone else to spend time talking about, but the similarity of Nochet and Filichet is pretty interesting, isn't it? Can Filichet boast the same kind of über-ancient Earth-cult status that Nochet can? Or is it maybe a more prosaic reason for their common ending?