Filichet and the Queen of Holay

[jajagappa]

59 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is probably too obvious for everyone else to spend time talking about, but the similarity of Nochet and Filichet is pretty interesting, isn't it? Can Filichet boast the same kind of über-ancient Earth-cult status that Nochet can? Or is it maybe a more prosaic reason for their common ending? 

I'm not aware of any identified commonality.  We know the origins of the Nochet name.  The earliest references to Filichet I believe come in the Redline History of the Lunar Empire. 

It does not appear in either GRoY or FS, and it wasn't a place that I ever recall discussing with Greg when I was working on Saird and the Verenmars Saga.  But from later discussions with Jeff, it's definitely connected to the Red/Horse Goddess and to the Earth Goddess. 

This is a bit from a document on the Kings of Saird that Jeff refined from my original text.

To honor his mother, Yusando [grandson of Verenmars and 4th king of Saird, called the Conqueror] released the sacred Golden Stallion at Mirin’s Cross and allowed it to run at will for one year in the company of a hundred nags, but no mares, followed by his Jajaloring guards and the priestesses of Reladiva.  The local Alakoringite petty kings submitted to the passage of the stallion until it finally stopped at the shore of Lake Invaress.  There, the priestesses of Reladiva built a great temple to Reladiva Holay at Filichet, which they claimed as their own and to which they brought the Helmet of Perides.  When the Golden Stallion returned to Jillaro in 1042, King Yusando sacrificed him in a great magical ceremony which destroyed the decadent EWF overnight.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

We know the origins of the Nochet name.

I know the out-of-universe origin (Not Yet), but what's the in-universe, again?

[jajagappa]

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

but what's the in-universe, again?

Esrolia, p.22: The collective word for everyone in the Charter of Law was Nochet. The “Place of Nochet” eventually became the city of Nochet.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Esrolia, p.22: The collective word for everyone in the Charter of Law was Nochet. The “Place of Nochet” eventually became the city of Nochet.

Right. Hm, they might not be so easy to combine/compare after all.

EDIT: Unless we interpret them as such:
Nochet: (All) Those of the Compact.
Filichet: (All) Those of Philekka(?) 

Admittedly this raises the question why why a group of people would hold Philekka so significant, but I'm way out of my depth there. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Nochet: (All) Those of the Compact.
Filichet: (All) Those of Philekka(?) 

Maybe you've discovered an eastern cognate of the "-sket" we see in Dawn Age likitite communities, where the "-chet" is a collective form and "no-" is a special (defective?) case of what would ordinarily be a legendary founder name in the "-sket" zone. In that scenario experts need to determine who or what was a Fili . . . possibly a local likita or other lost earth figure. 

Since we sometimes say "goose egg" to refer to zero the "No-" may even connote something like what it does in the original English "not yet" story. This is the interstitial city that exists as a negotiation among the symbols of the preexisting great families of the region, not partaking in any mythic founder in itself beyond the sacred goose girl and her egg. A placeholder, a riddle. 

It's interesting that Lhankor was already there before the Dawn, presumably along with the waertagi familiar with other likita communities. But this is a tangent at best around the great stuff happening around Saird. I wonder if Mirin's "cross" wasn't left there by western colonists, pilgrims or crusaders whose ways persisted.

[jeffjerwin]

55 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'm not aware of any identified commonality.  We know the origins of the Nochet name.  The earliest references to Filichet I believe come in the Redline History of the Lunar Empire. 

It does not appear in either GRoY or FS, and it wasn't a place that I ever recall discussing with Greg when I was working on Saird and the Verenmars Saga.  But from later discussions with Jeff, it's definitely connected to the Red/Horse Goddess and to the Earth Goddess. 

This is a bit from a document on the Kings of Saird that Jeff refined from my original text.

To honor his mother, Yusando [grandson of Verenmars and 4th king of Saird, called the Conqueror] released the sacred Golden Stallion at Mirin’s Cross and allowed it to run at will for one year in the company of a hundred nags, but no mares, followed by his Jajaloring guards and the priestesses of Reladiva.  The local Alakoringite petty kings submitted to the passage of the stallion until it finally stopped at the shore of Lake Invaress.  There, the priestesses of Reladiva built a great temple to Reladiva Holay at Filichet, which they claimed as their own and to which they brought the Helmet of Perides.  When the Golden Stallion returned to Jillaro in 1042, King Yusando sacrificed him in a great magical ceremony which destroyed the decadent EWF overnight.

Hmmm. I think know the real world version of this ritual. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is probably too obvious for everyone else to spend time talking about, but the similarity of Nochet and Filichet is pretty interesting, isn't it? Can Filichet boast the same kind of über-ancient Earth-cult status that Nochet can? Or is it maybe a more prosaic reason for their common ending? 

The truth is the dry surface of the universe - at least according to the Esrolia and the Entekosiad books - was the domain of Earth, and that Earth Queens (and the occasional Titanic Earth Father) were the norm. The Storm and Vingkotling culture took over an Earth area, ruled by daughters of Ernalda and Velhara..., and it is possible that that Esrolia and Holay (and Seshnela and the Paps) are all outlying fragments of a universal Earth culture that has been mostly driven into the Loom Houses by swaggering men.

Or it is possible that when you take away Orlanth Ernalda is potent enough to remain behind even in his absence. The Esrolians abolished kingship or kept it to the old year-king way, and the Bright Empire eradicated the Berenethtelli, while leaving Reydalda alone. So Reydalda's priestess queens might have survived because they seemed less threatening (perhaps as part of their 'other way') to patriarchal men (the Broken Council/Dara Happa), as opposed to the Esrolians realizing that the Vingkotlings threatened peace and stability. In both cases the removal of the king left a queen behind. The queen represented something older and more resilient as well.

[Joerg]

There is a possible connection between the Western earth-cult -ket cities (Old Seshnela, but also in Ket-Turos) and the -chet in and around Saird. Possibly a sound change along a consonant combinatiion. This might be an element of Earth-tongue for city, palace, or temple site.

[jeffjerwin]

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is a possible connection between the Western earth-cult -ket cities (Old Seshnela, but also in Ket-Turos) and the -chet in and around Saird. Possibly a sound change along a consonant combinatiion. This might be an element of Earth-tongue for city, palace, or temple site.

I agree.

KetTuros is Turos as a City God and KetEnari means 'City Mother'. Ket means City in NW Peloria, at least.

Filichet = City of 'Fili[k]'.

Edit: Nochet as a 'charter/polis' is not incompatible with 'ket' or 'chet' meaning 'community'.

Edit 2: Fili-chet of course sounds like Filly-chet, but that's just the way sounds in English sometimes seem to hint at things in Glorantha. But Fili or Phila could still mean 'horse, mare'.

Edited January 17, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[jeffjerwin]

In apocryphal material, Zin Letters #4, p.9 describes Barntar's rescue from Chaos by the Black Eel river and the river goddess becoming the ally of Orlanth.

That plus Barntar's Sheaf (Berenstead?) and the Barntar Hills in Holay suggests that Orlanth's son might have been significant here even before his father was displaced out of the Holay god-realm.

Six Ages names the Rams who joined with some Hyalorings to form the Berenethtelli to Kasteytelli. This suggests a name Kastey, with the suffix echoing the Tarshite name Unstay.

One interesting question is the possible relationship of the Bell Temple in Filichet with the bell goddess of Nivorah. She was 'left behind', so when asked about the goddess Inilla, the clan circle sometime says, ""We had to leave our bell goddess behind when we left Nivorah. Inilla sometimes sings, though."

In Naveria, Benbeng (or JedaBenBen) is the bell and sacred starter goddess, the beginner of rituals, summoner of the other goddesses. She has some vague similarities to Ernalda, and seems to be a sister of Moon goddess. She is the aunt of Busenari, who closely resembles Uralda/Eiritha. In a general sense we can identify the bell sound with goddesses of community and fertility. Natha's relationship to bells has a link to Benbeng as Natha is Benbeng's great-niece. Moreover Busenari in Six Ages is associated with a magic bell, though three other magic bells are used in battle to strike fear into enemies. 'Ben-tus' the mead/ecstasy god may be connected to Ben-Ben[g] as he is worshipped with bells and dancing.

In the Book of Heortling Mythology, chimes and bells are associated with the birth of Umath. It is the sound of the joy of the Earth at the caress of the wind.

Tarsh in Flames associates copper bells with the authority of Earth priestesses, such as the Maran Gor temple, at the executions of the condemned, and in the Sedrodosa witches' command of spirits, and the sound of bells defines the distance from which an outcast must remain apart from their city. [Is this the reason that the bell goddess was left behind, because the bell was the sacred sound of the city precinct, from which the Hyalorings had cast themselves out?]

In TotM 17 the goose dance involves bells.

'What the Grazer Shaman Says' tells us that the Sun Bells summon the dead to the side of Yu-Kargzant.

I think therefore in general the bells of Filichet delineate and create sacred space/sensation, conjuring the rhythms of the God-time. Compare the use of music and dance by the Waltzing and Hunting Bands, and the Proximate Holy Realm of Orlanthland, and of course, the Puppeteer Troop.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

One interesting question is the possible relationship of the Bell Temple in Filichet with the bell goddess of Nivorah.

Does the "bell goddess of Nivorah" appear in Six Ages? If so, probably adopted to suggest a future connection. Don't think it appears elsewhere.

11 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

I think therefore in general the bells of Filichet delineate and create sacred space/sensation, conjuring the rhythms of the God-time.

Yes, I expect so.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Does the "bell goddess of Nivorah" appear in Six Ages? If so, probably adopted to suggest a future connection. Don't think it appears elsewhere.

Yes. Or rather, she's mentioned but 'lost' to the Hyalorings.

Edit: this suggests to me that the Bell Temple's founding might be linked to Verenmars or the Queen of Holay heroquesting to find her.

Further Edit: By connecting Redalda/Reydalda/Reladiva closer to Nivorah, this also undermines the Vingkotling heritage of the cult and 'Holayans' by reinforcing the importance of Elmal, the god of Nivorah.

We can reconstructing Hyaloring/Berenethtelli Saird further by looking at the Hyaloring Triaty in Sartar, who are deeply conservative.

Edited January 19, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[jeffjerwin]

The Hyaloring Triatry worships Elmal as chief god, and Hyalor as an ancestor, like the 'Riders' of Six Ages. The also worship Kuschile.

They worship Elmal's 'wife' Redalda. This indicates to me that Beren was lost as an ancestor and equated with Elmal himself. Thus the mating of Elmal and Redalda might have something to do with the reconstitution of the Bell Temple out of Nivorah.

[jeffjerwin]

How did the Hyaloring Triaty make their way to Sartar? They were not originally Colymar, of course. They arrived during the first wave, in 1320. This is before Arim crossed the Deathline, so it seems they were not part of the Holayan-Aggar migrations to the North.

I would suggest that the Triaty were isolated from Holay by the Dragonkill in 1120. They originally dwelt north of the Ridgeline and fled south from the Dragons into Esrolia or Hendrikiland, probably the latter (Ernalda isn't dominant among them), being numbered among the 'foreign' clans. Thus they preserve the Holayan culture (including the Elmal and Redalda cults) as constituted by Queen Holaya.

Note this means that changes in Holay that occurred between 1120 to 1330 had no impact on the Triaty. This were the very innovations, under Sairdite and Sylillan influence, that pressed Arim to cross the Line.

Further edit: I would suggest that the resistance to the Yelmalio innovations is partly because the Spearman cult and the similarities between Elmal as worshipped in the Far Point and Tarsh and Monrogh's Yelmalio are all post-1120 developments. Elmal's cult in Runegate lacks certain key features that emerged in Elmal in Holay that were due to Sun Dome influence from Saird.

Edited January 19, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

How did the Hyaloring Triaty make their way to Sartar?

Pure Horse Tribe in the Wastelands.  All that's needed is three clans moving from Prax to Kethaela sometime in the Imperial Age (before the tribe itself was destroyed).  

Edit: Or Part of Pure Horse Army invading Dragon Pass as part of the True Golden Horde makes a hard turn left in order to survive and ends up among the Hendriki.

Edited January 19, 2020 by metcalph

[jeffjerwin]

37 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Pure Horse Tribe in the Wastelands.  All that's needed is three clans moving from Prax to Kethaela sometime in the Imperial Age (before the tribe itself was destroyed).  

Edit: Or Part of Pure Horse Army invading Dragon Pass as part of the True Golden Horde makes a hard turn left in order to survive and ends up among the Hendriki.

I'd go with the second one since they worship Beren as an ancestor. I think there's no Beren worship among the Praxian Pure Horse people but I could be mistaken.

[metcalph]

45 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

I'd go with the second one since they worship Beren as an ancestor. I think there's no Beren worship among the Praxian Pure Horse people but I could be mistaken.

There's nothing to stop ex-PHP from worshipping Beren as an Ancestor *after* they have settled among the Hendriki. 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

We can reconstructing Hyaloring/Berenethtelli Saird further by looking at the Hyaloring Triaty in Sartar, who are deeply conservative.

Bear in mind that the Berenethtelli are gone before the end of the 1st Age destroyed by Lokaymadon. I don't believe that we can look at Saird as having on ongoing Hyaloring tradition after the Gbaji Wars. Doesn't mean the deities are gone, but the area is washed over by waves of Dara Happans, Orlanthi including Praxian Bison and Sable riders, and EWF/Golden Dragon before Verenmars emerges out of DH to draw upon ancient Saird deities including the ancient land goddess and the dog gods including Jajagappa and Rowdril.

Years ago I posed the idea of a connection between the ancient Hyalorings and Verenmars to Greg which he definitely did not believe to exist. But both the heirs of Verenmars and the Conquering Daughter clearly drew upon the Horse Goddess, and I centered this on Holaya as bringing the horse goddess back to the land (her journey mirrored the fall of Hippogriff and started somewhere around the border of Prax - very much in line with @metcalph's note).

[jeffjerwin]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

There's nothing to stop ex-PHP from worshipping Beren as an Ancestor *after* they have settled among the Hendriki. 

The Hyaloring Triaty apparently 'survived the Adjustment Wars' so they clearly did settle among the Hendriki. Beren might have continued as an ancestor among other northern Heortling tribes who had intermarried with the now extinct Berenethtelli, however. Harmast, who _was_ a Berenethtelli, left sons in Esrolia and in Hendrikiland, as well, and is certainly a descendant of Beren, though not a horseman.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Bear in mind that the Berenethtelli are gone before the end of the 1st Age destroyed by Lokaymadon. I don't believe that we can look at Saird as having on ongoing Hyaloring tradition after the Gbaji Wars. Doesn't mean the deities are gone, but the area is washed over by waves of Dara Happans, Orlanthi including Praxian Bison and Sable riders, and EWF/Golden Dragon before Verenmars emerges out of DH to draw upon ancient Saird deities including the ancient land goddess and the dog gods including Jajagappa and Rowdril.

Years ago I posed the idea of a connection between the ancient Hyalorings and Verenmars to Greg which he definitely did not believe to exist. But both the heirs of Verenmars and the Conquering Daughter clearly drew upon the Horse Goddess, and I centered this on Holaya as bringing the horse goddess back to the land (her journey mirrored the fall of Hippogriff and started somewhere around the border of Prax - very much in line with @metcalph's note).

Holaya's reconstruction of the Hyaloring tradition seems to have resurrected several gods, then, and among them Reydalda/Reladiva. This could correspond to the ancestors of dead tribes being revived among the Quivini. In any case, it would have been more than 90 years before the Dragonkill, sufficient time for a 'retro' Elmali horse cult to develop in response well before the Dragonkill.

?925    Alakoring slays Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon, in Aggar or Holay.

945      Alakoring is slain by an elf-arrow on the site of Banborn, later a city of Holay. The tomb of Alakoring is in Banborn. His slayer was Tobosta Greenbow, ‘an elf-lord of the Elder Wilds’, whom Alakoring had offended. Despite this Tobosta warred against the EWF afterwards.

960      ‘The Three Brothers Who Divided the World’ rule Carmania, Dara Happa, and Saird. Verenmars becomes king of Saird.

Penkranthos is the seat of Verenmars ‘second age king of Saird’. This is now part of Vanch.

Verenmars was the son of Sarenesh, a Dara Happan emperor.

1041    Filichet founded and dedicated to Redaylda by Yusando the Conqueror, the spot being chosen by the golden stallion (re-establishment of Lightfore as Tharkantus). Yusando ruled all of Dragon Pass north of the ‘Wide Pass’ and Kerospine. Yusando was later defeated in battle by Andrin the Conqueror at Dwarf Ford.

Yusando seems to have ruled over the Alakorings and Sairdites.

Yusando seems to a descendant of Verenmars.

Nodnor near Fyllich Kwan was an EWF ruin, abandoned during the fall of the Sun Dragon.

New cities are founded to replace the EWF citadels.

Dwernapple’s Ernalda temple comes under the patronage of the Sairdite Warlord.

The Necklace of Radiance is brought from Kerofinela by the conquerors. It later becomes part of the regalia of the Queen of Filichet.

1042    Kumardros issues the Call for Heroes.

1050    Death of Andrin the Conqueror.

1089    Balazar becomes king of Votankiland/the Elder Wilds. He is a worshipper of Tharkantus and an ally of Brother Dog.

‘Tharkantus’ may be a Dara Happan spelling of Kargzant, i.e. Thar-Kargzant, i.e., Yelmalio.

c.1100 The ‘warlord of Saird’ rules all the Oslir valley from Sylila to the Liornvuli and Grizzly Peak.

1120    The Dragonkill. Around this time the Balazaring citadels are founded by the three sons of Balazar, who had been killed during the Dragonkill as a member of the True Golden Horde. Saird’s rulers (‘warlord’) also participated in the True Golden Horde and were killed.

Possible transformation of the Forosilvuli into ‘Ornore’ with the destruction of the male bloodline.

Verenmar’s line is extinguished.

During the Scorch a flight of dragons destroys everything in its path as far as Lake Ivaress, but Filichet is spared. Fleeing Orlanthi settle in Holay and upper Saird, and establish new tribal kingdoms.

The Danger Line runs in a semi-circle two hexes north of what is later Talfort to what is later Tarshford. This becomes the traditional boundary of Holay, which falls into slow collapse after losing its lifeblood, trade.

Edited January 19, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[jeffjerwin]

Note from the above that Elmal and Tharkantus are apparently co-existing in the Said-Holay region in c.945-1120.

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Note from the above that Elmal and Tharkantus are apparently co-existing in the Said-Holay region in c.945-1120.

From everything I've seen, Elmal appears to be a southern Theyalan name - i.e. from Esrolia and Heortland. I don't recall anything specifically referencing Elmal in this region during the 2nd Age.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

From everything I've seen, Elmal appears to be a southern Theyalan name - i.e. from Esrolia and Heortland. I don't recall anything specifically referencing Elmal in this region during the 2nd Age.

Heortland - the land of the Heortlings - used to include southern Saird. The Dragonkill then reduced it to the eastern Sixth of the Holy Country.

Hendriki apartness and allegiance to the OOO kept them outside of the EWF's dragon dream, and unlike in Peloria, the traditionalists here didn't rise against the dragons in any threatening ways. But still, the Hendriki shared their lands with four types of foreigners, one of which were non-Hendriki from the Pass (and possibly beyond).

Prior to the acceptance of the Orlanth Dragonfriend cultists in the Ring of Orlanthland, the urbanized Heortlings of Orlanthland may well have continued to pay homage to Elmal. Tharkantus was a Sairdite cult, but not a Heortling one.

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Heortland - the land of the Heortlings - used to include southern Saird. The Dragonkill then reduced it to the eastern Sixth of the Holy Country.

Hendriki apartness and allegiance to the OOO kept them outside of the EWF's dragon dream, and unlike in Peloria, the traditionalists here didn't rise against the dragons in any threatening ways. But still, the Hendriki shared their lands with four types of foreigners, one of which were non-Hendriki from the Pass (and possibly beyond).

Prior to the acceptance of the Orlanth Dragonfriend cultists in the Ring of Orlanthland, the urbanized Heortlings of Orlanthland may well have continued to pay homage to Elmal. Tharkantus was a Sairdite cult, but not a Heortling one.

The logic behind Elmal surviving in Holay is that the Elmal-worshipping Tarshite tribes and clans who settled Far Point came from either Holay or Aggar. They would hardly have taken the name Elmal from the Hendriki since they had no contact with them until c.1330-50. They clearly, from the History of the Far Point (see the most recent WF) were Elmal worshippers from the beginning of their settlement. The Elmali of Runegate, however, seem to have been isolated from the other Hyaloring/Pure Horse Folk by the Dragonkill. However we know that Tharkantus was the (or a) name of Lightfore in Saird from Griffin Mountain. The Pure Horse who ended up in Pent and Prax of course call Lightfore Kargzant, which seems to be derived from the same root as Thar-Kantus. We can I think surmise that Elmal was Lightfore in Orlanthland, and it spread south from Saird and what is now Holay.

Edit: Moreover, the name Elmal comes from Nivorah, not from Prax or Esrolia, where Lightfore and the Sun God were known by different names.

Edited January 20, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Edit: Moreover, the name Elmal comes from Nivorah, not from Prax or Esrolia, where Lightfore and the Sun God were known by different names

I don't think there is any canonical evidence of this. If there is any Elmal association, it is with Elempur.

13 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

The logic behind Elmal surviving in Holay is that the Elmal-worshipping Tarshite tribes and clans who settled Far Point came from either Holay or Aggar. They would hardly have taken the name Elmal from the Hendriki since they had no contact with them until c.1330-50. They clearly, from the History of the Far Point (see the most recent WF) were Elmal worshippers from the beginning of their settlement.

Given Jeff's current viewpoints on Yelmalio/Elmal, I'm not sure how this currently fits.  Yelmalio clearly is the Lightfore of Saird/Holay given the presence of the Sun Dome temples, and the Yelmalio cult in Balazar. Current naming of Yelmalio vs. Tharkantus may be post-Dragonkill as the Sun Domes reflected upon that disaster.

[jeffjerwin]

53 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't think there is any canonical evidence of this. If there is any Elmal association, it is with Elempur.

Given Jeff's current viewpoints on Yelmalio/Elmal, I'm not sure how this currently fits.  Yelmalio clearly is the Lightfore of Saird/Holay given the presence of the Sun Dome temples, and the Yelmalio cult in Balazar. Current naming of Yelmalio vs. Tharkantus may be post-Dragonkill as the Sun Domes reflected upon that disaster.

The name 'Yelmalio' was brought back by Monrogh (Sourcebook, p.26), and replaced Elmal. Also WF 15 p.30, "The Yelmalio cultists in Sartar descend from tribes who had worshiped Elmal, the Orlanthi Sun God, until that god was revealed to be Yelmalio, the Cold Sun."

So while I accept that Jeff Richard has declared Elmal and Yelmalio the same, the name Elmal was used for Lightfore in northern Sartar and Tarsh, i.e., among the descendants of the people of Holay. I believe it has been stated that Yelmalio is a Dara Happan word which simply means 'Little Sun'. So in Holay it is possible that when speaking Northern Heortling the word was Elmal and in Dara Happan and Peloria dialects the word was Yelmalio. However the fact remains that the Little Sun cult in Tarsh and northern Sartar/Far Point did experience significant ritual and mythological changes under Monrogh.

One question then is whether the Colymar Hyaloring Elmal resembled the Elmal/Yelmalio of Far Point. It is possible that there was already a major distinction between the cults that is obscured by a common name for their god. Monrogh's introduction of Yelmalio as a name for the god might be paired with a change to using Dara Happan or Firespeech in a ritual context instead of Northern Heortling. In which case the average Heortling probably still uses Elmal in ordinary parlance for the god.

In which case the term Elmal exists in Far Point because the local language in Holay (as opposed to Saird) was the ancestor of Tarshite.

So I'm retreating here a bit from the Elmal 'as opposed to Yelmalio' argument but I think it's fair to say that when the Tarshites and Far Point tribes settled Dragon Pass the ordinary name for the god was Elmal, and Monrogh among other things insisted on using the Dara Happan/Firespeech name in its place.

 

Edit: In the main I think the point is that Holay is a Theyalan speaking region and still is, and if it wasn't, Tarsh wouldn't be speaking a Northern Heortling dialect. The cultural continuity of Holay to Tarsh particularly before 1459 is going to blur the two countries together. We can extrapolate things about Holay from Tarshite and Far Point culture and religion.

Edit 2: Though we should be wary of the possible influence of the Shaker Temple, which I suspect is indigenous to Dragon Pass.

Edited January 20, 2020 by jeffjerwin