Filichet and the Queen of Holay

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

The logic behind Elmal surviving in Holay is that the Elmal-worshipping Tarshite tribes and clans who settled Far Point came from either Holay or Aggar.

Other than the Alda-chur temple of Elmal mentioned in WF15, I can find no mention or evidence for any Tarshite tribe (Pelorian Orlanthi speaking tribe in Dragon Pass) having evidence of Elmal worship during the resettlement. Instead, I find evidence of a Yelmalio-temple in Goldedge as part of Arim's Kingdom of Tarsh in its founding phase, two centuries before the activities of Monrogh. And further Yelmalio temples north of the Death Line, see the map of Sun Dome Temples.

Vanntar is the only Sun Dome temple site for which I have seen evidence of Elmal worship.

 

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

They would hardly have taken the name Elmal from the Hendriki since they had no contact with them until c.1330-50.

Strictly speaking, they never had any contact with the Hendriki, whose greatest extent of influence did just reach into the Far Point, between the Mass Utuma of 1042 and the Dragonkill. (The local Heortlings there were a tributary kingdom of the Hendriki king.)

Depending on how much survived of Second Age Alda-chur through the Dragonkill, the Far Place tribes may have found ruins of an Elmal temple with inscriptions spelling the name of the sun disk deity here as Elmal. They might even have switched their golden spearman cult appelation from Tharkantus to Elmal to benefit from the ancient temple spirits.

 

I have no idea whether the Hendriki had significant numbers of worshipers of Elmal, or whether the Elmali south of the Crossline were mostly "foreigners" in the sense of Aventus's laws, either already before the fall of the EWF, or as new immigrants (read refugees) from the downfall of the EWF. There were plenty other Orlanthi than the Hendriki to prefer a friendly god of the Sun Disk over a slave of the Dara Happan hostile sun disk diminished to the Sun Dome and the horse planet.

 

As the EWF lost its leaders in a single night, the countries to the north initiated a vast raid, sending plenty of people already hit hard by the failure of their draconic crops and draconic herds to flee for their survival, and the only direction to flee to was south (unless you count the city of Pavis). This will have affected people from as far north as Holay and Aggar, sending people from Second Age Saird into the lands south of the Crossline. (Everything north of the Crossline had benefitted strongly from the dragon dream, and suffered heavily when it ended abruptly).

The advance of the True Golden Horde and its merciless pillaging ("foraging") of the northern Heortlings may have sent more people fleeing for their lives south into the Kingdom of Night before the Dragonkill. Those who remained in the path of that incredibly numerous horde will have had a survival rate below 50%, unless the horde sent back a stream of slaves rather than just slay whoever resisted (didn't part from their last food, all their seed, and all their herds).

The genocide the Golden Horde did probably destroyed at least as many lives as were killed by the dragons, if not by direct violence then by starvation and exposure.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

They clearly, from the History of the Far Point (see the most recent WF) were Elmal worshippers from the beginning of their settlement.

That's the most recent statement on these tribes. 25 years ago, I was writing a scenario starting in Malani lands, involving Dinacoli raiders and in the end dragonewts near Dragon's Eye, and I confirmed a number of statements with Greg: the Dinacoli and other tribes formed from clans immigrating from north of the Deathline spoke Pelorian Orlanthi (aka Tarshite), and worshiped Yelmalio rather than Elmal. WF15 claims that the Far Point tribes worshiped Elmal, and were among the tribes whose Elmali were converted by the revelation of Monrogh more than three decades before they joined the Kingdom of Sartar.

This needn't be true for the Dinacoli, whose tribal sun horse worshipers may have been worshiping the God of the Sun Dome Temples already when they entered the Donalf Flats - their migration was separate from that of the original Far Point tribes. WF15 says so - they were the easternmost march of the Kingdom of Tarsh. Their sun dome worship probably was overseen by the Goldedge Yelmalio temple that appears to have been set up under the Tarsh Twins, Arim's children, or even earlier under Arim himself.

The Elmal cults of the Kingdom of Night and those north of the Death Line needn't have been identical. Those in the north had had exposure to the Sun Dome temples since the Bright Empire.

In Esrolia, Elmal the Sun Disk is one of the sacred husbands of the earth. Yelmalio of the Sun Dome temples is not.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Elmali of Runegate, however, seem to have been isolated from the other Hyaloring/Pure Horse Folk by the Dragonkill.

More significantly, they (and all the other Heortling-speaking immigrants to the Pass) had been separated from Sun Dome templars and temples for centuries. Palangio and his phalangites were an evil memory in the Kingdom of Night. The new masters of Vanntar haven't done much to make their southern neighbors reconsider.

 

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

However we know that Tharkantus was the (or a) name of Lightfore in Saird from Griffin Mountain.

Tharkantus was the name of Yelmalio in the Second Age, Dara Happan religionists originally of Daysenerus serving as mercenaries for the Council of Orlanthland against the early EWF mystics, then taking a neutral stance as the cult of Orlanth Dragonfriend first entered the Council of Orlanthland in the person of Obduran, then dominated it as Obduran's followers and imitators also achieved seats on that council, and after a while adopting the draconic creed and helping wipe out the Old Day Traditionalists for Isgangdrang. Then, in a miraculous about turn none of their phalanxes could have reproduced, they dropped all draconic trappings as the draconic leaders dropped dead, and became flunkies of Dara Happa, like Balazar.

From comments on Griffin Mountain, really. GM was written long before Elmal had entered anybody's Glorantha, and only talks about Yelmalio, the same cult as in the Zola Fel Valley.

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Pure Horse who ended up in Pent and Prax of course call Lightfore Kargzant, which seems to be derived from the same root as Thar-Kantus.

There is a similarity in the end rhymes of the first two syllables of Kargzant and Tharkantus, but I cannot imagine how a k and a g-z could be phonetically related. Especially if it is Thar-Kantus  and Karg-Zant. But even Kar-Gzant provides a labial sound rather than the throaty click of the k.
 

 

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

We can I think surmise that Elmal was Lightfore in Orlanthland, and it spread south from Saird and what is now Holay.

I surmise that Elmal was the friendly Sun Disk in Orlanthland at day, and possibly Lightfore at night.

But then, Yelm is the Dara Happan Sun Disk in the day, and in the night Young Yelm retraces his early battles in front of the starry sky.

 

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

Edit: Moreover, the name Elmal comes from Nivorah, not from Prax or Esrolia, where Lightfore and the Sun God were known by different names.

Elempur was the city of the bow, south or upriver of Nivorah. This is the closest any document discussing Antirius comes to pronouncing Elmal, other than naming Elemalus the king of the Vingkotlings in later struggles.

 

Reladivus (the male form of Redalda) appears to be the name that comes from Nivorah, in the discussions on the Copper Tablets by the Dara Happans. That, or Kargzant. Where I have the impression that Kargzant was a walker deity from Garsting that somehow was adopted by charioteers who originated from Nivorah.

Elmal is the name of the Hyalorings who joined the Vingkotlings while Vingkot was King, IMO before the Ram People were overcome by Urvairinus and their captured iron god was used to part the advancing glacier north of Yuthuppa. Nivorah was abandoned only when the glacier had advanced onto the top of the Dome that preserved the Tripolis. By that development, the Berennethtelli had long been established, as far as a comparison of the Heortling myths with the advance of the glacier suggests.

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

46 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Elmal is the name of the Hyalorings who joined the Vingkotlings while Vingkot was King, IMO before the Ram People were overcome by Urvairinus and their captured iron god was used to part the advancing glacier north of Yuthuppa. Nivorah was abandoned only when the glacier had advanced onto the top of the Dome that preserved the Tripolis. By that development, the Berennethtelli had long been established, as far as a comparison of the Heortling myths with the advance of the glacier suggests.

 

I think the diverging understandings here come from those who are influenced by previous texts, and those who are influenced by Six Ages. In Six Ages, Elmal is the City God/Planetary Son/Little Sun of Nivorah. The glacier overtaking this city turns its refugees into the Hyalorings (and another, charioteer, group who aren't terrible relevant right now). Due to their refusal to listen to imperial order to stay put under the glacier, the emperor essentially committed damnatio memoriae on Elmal, removing him from Dara Happan history and replacing him with his son, Reladivus, as the historically recorded city god of Nivorah. 

Yelmalio (literally called "Little Yelm" in the game) is explicitly a different deity. After the death of "the Emperor" in the past (from the Hyaloring perspective during the latter part of the Storm Age), many different gods claimed the position as keeper of the sunpath, amongst others Little Yelm, Shagash and others, and eventually the Hyalorings' Elma had to step in to safekeep it, essentially taking on the mantle of the Sun in the process. Inasmuch as there is a sun during the Storm Age, that is Elmal to the Hyalorings.

During the course of the game itself, the player gets to attempt to form the beginnings of the Berennethtelli through intermarriage with a Vingkotling (called Rams in the game, from the Hyaloring perspective) group. 

That's the shortest summary I can give of it. I am fully aware that Six Ages is not "canon" in the strictest sense, ie. not published by Chaosium by whatever date/publication they currently hold as start of canon (presumably the Guide, but I'm unclear by now), but, well... it's a very well-made and compelling story, and to me and many others that does count for something as these things go. 

I don't have much else to add, just attempting to clear up what MIGHT be some talking past each other. If I didn't, please excuse me.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I think the diverging understandings here come from those who are influenced by previous texts, and those who are influenced by Six Ages. In Six Ages, Elmal is the City God/Planetary Son/Little Sun of Nivorah. The glacier overtaking this city turns its refugees into the Hyalorings (and another, charioteer, group who aren't terrible relevant right now). Due to their refusal to listen to imperial order to stay put under the glacier, the emperor essentially committed damnatio memoriae on Elmal, removing him from Dara Happan history and replacing him with his son, Reladivus, as the historically recorded city god of Nivorah. 

During the course of the game itself, the player gets to attempt to form the beginnings of the Berennethtelli through intermarriage with a Vingkotling (called Rams in the game, from the Hyaloring perspective) group. 

That's the shortest summary I can give of it. I am fully aware that Six Ages is not "canon" in the strictest sense, ie. not published by Chaosium by whatever date/publication they currently hold as start of canon (presumably the Guide, but I'm unclear by now), but, well... it's a very well-made and compelling story, and to me and many others that does count for something as these things go. 

I don't have much else to add, just attempting to clear up what MIGHT be some talking past each other. If I didn't, please excuse me.

While I haven't played the game yet, I am aware of the game's thrust, and I trust David Dunham and Robin Laws to create a game dealing with this possible turn of events.

Nevertheless, I am rooting for Hyalor from Genert's Garden, son (or at least descendant) of Yamsur who took pity upon the broken remains of once proud Hippogriff and who broke her even further into his servant Hippoi. Now the Nivorah goddess Gamara is also a fallen sky creature whose wings had been clipped off, but there is no evidence for her having ever had a raptor's beak or claws, or appetite for meat. To me, she is an unwinged pegasus.

The exiles of Nivorah IMO were all charioteers or walkers, and had no appetite for eating horse meat as their only domesticated herd beast meat. They were from a culture that sacrificed bulls (Buserian - sacrificer of bulls), which suggests that they herded them, and cows, and received most of their sustenance from that.

 

Another aside: the husband of Orgovale Summer is Ulanin the Rider. There is a summer tribe with a long history of horse-riding, too.

Beren and his Hyaloring folk came to the Vingkotlings from the north. There is a good chance that Ulanin and his Hyaloring folk came to the Vingkotlings from the east, through the Redwood savannah of Prax which only occasionally saw the herds and two-legs of Storm Bull and Eiritha who roamed the wide lands of Genert's Garden with their founders and protectresses. The people of Prax were sedentary gardeners and lion-hunters led by Tada, and the earth-tribe eastern kin of the Vingkotlings. When the Aroka Flood covered huge tracts of the Praxian savannah, the Tada-Shi of the Sleeping City were separated from the Garden and the roaming Beast Riders by that sea. Eiritha wasn't buried yet, and the waters of the Aroka Sea flowed freely around the Zola Fel river bed and in a huge arch above Dagori Inkarth and eastern Greatway towards the Elf Sea, the biggest remainder of that ancient body of water.

As the flood retreated, Vingkot came to Orlanth's court, proved himself among the Thunder Brothers, and became king of the Orlanthi. He wooed Tada's twin daughters and fathered five sons and five daughters on them, which led to the founding of the nine tribes of the Vingkotlings - one royal tribe, three summer tribes and five winter tribes.

Around this retreat of the seas, Hyalor must have befriended and transformed Hippoi, and his folk became riders of this former sky creature. The Golden Age was over, resources weren't as plentiful as they used to be, not even in the generous fertility of Genert's Garden, and so the horse riders and the beast riders began a rivalry. As the horse riders were not supported by Eiritha, they moved away from the garden, around the Rockwood Mountains. Redaylde met Beren and his fascinating new type of beast, fell in love with at least one them, and instituted the Foreigner Wedding among the Orlanthi. Her sister Orgoval(t)e Summer did the same with Ulanin. The other three sisters took other illustrous husbands - Goralf Brown, Kastwall Five, and Porscriptor the Cannibal. (He sounds like one of the walkers who may have worshiped Kargzant, and who brought forth so charming Jenarong dynasty emperors like "Eats Women" and "Eater of Flesh".)

 

Some time later, Death (or its former underworld guardian) came into the Praxian savannah and threatened to claim Eiritha, so Tada hid her under the hill range that bears her name and shape. This is how the temple site of the Paps was founded.

(The death that came to Prax is unlikely to have been Humakt or Eurmal. There is a possibility that Basmol was the carrier of Death rather than Nontraya, but I prefer the deity afterwards crippled into Vivamort to be the antagonist tricked by Tada. Unlike Telmor, Basmol doesn't have that much of a Death association.)

[Sir_Godspeed]

57 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The exiles of Nivorah IMO were all charioteers or walkers, and had no appetite for eating horse meat as their only domesticated herd beast meat. They were from a culture that sacrificed bulls (Buserian - sacrificer of bulls), which suggests that they herded them, and cows, and received most of their sustenance from that.

 

I can't comment on the overall narrative. It is a fine one, as it appears to me, but I've no real horse in the race and neither the knowledge to evaluate against any thoughts of my own. One small thing I can comment on is that in Six Ages, the Hyalorings are shown as primarily cattle-ranchers. A few of the Hyaloring clans are Pure Horse people - much like with modern Pentans they are a minority, not the norm.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

While I haven't played the game yet, I am aware of the game's thrust, and I trust David Dunham and Robin Laws to create a game dealing with this possible turn of events.

Sir Godspeed is correct. I am drawing my theories from Six Ages. I have represented what the game depicts, in the understanding that the Riders (who call themselves thus, rather than Hyalorings) are being depicted as a part of Gloranthan history, not a non-canon outlier. Other survivors of Nivorah are Wheels (chariot-riders) and Walkers, and they don't get along with the Riders. Not all riders are Pure Horse (the player clan is not, and those that are are a distinct minority). This wiki, however, may prove more instructive than what I can tell you: https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/Six_Ages_Wiki

There is no question that Holayan and Berenethtelli history from before Holay is deeply connected with how the game depicts the region.

Ulanin the Rider might come from Prax, but the Riders of Beren are from Nivorah. The Hyalor legend is represented in the game as indigenous to Nivorah, though this could be the blinders that the Riders themselves have. Certainly they make no mention of Prax or Genert's Garden. Yamsur, Little Sun, Elmal, and other sons of Yelm are depicted as different deities, but this may also be their point of view. The endgame does make clear that Beren's clan tends to see things in a less expansive way than their own gods.

Elempur does not appear but is mentioned as destroyed by the Rams; the ruins can be visited. It typically appears south of the Black Eel lands in the midst of all the Rams. Its god is not named.

Certainly Six Ages counts as much or more than secondary material developed a dozen or more years ago. I recommend trying out the game.

Edited January 20, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

The name 'Yelmalio' was brought back by Monrogh (Sourcebook, p.26), and replaced Elmal.

At the Sun Dome Temple in Sartar. Monrogh was a companion of Tarkalor, not involved with the temples in Saird. And quite possible he learned of Yelmalio at one of the Tarsh temples, and realized the implications.

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Also WF 15 p.30, "The Yelmalio cultists in Sartar descend from tribes who had worshiped Elmal, the Orlanthi Sun God, until that god was revealed to be Yelmalio, the Cold Sun."

Yes, but those are southern tribes from Esrolia/Heortland not from Saird.

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

the name Elmal was used for Lightfore in northern Sartar and Tarsh, i.e., among the descendants of the people of Holay…. I think it's fair to say that when the Tarshites and Far Point tribes settled Dragon Pass the ordinary name for the god was Elmal

I do not believe we have sufficient canonical evidence to support this at this point.

Nor do I see a compelling need to try to push "Elmal" into Tarsh/Holay. Holay, Saird, and Aggar are at the heart of the Yelmalio cult with the most Sun Dome Temples. This is the area that has the most and best known stories of Yelmalio - and they know him as the god of the Sun Dome.  All of them pre-date Monrogh, and all of the temples north of the Death Line (though not necessarily the Templars) and their records survived the Dragonkill.

5 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

We can extrapolate things about Holay from Tarshite and Far Point culture and religion.

To an extent. But Saird/Holay have always been a melting pot between DH and Orlanthi cultures. DH influence has rarely extended farther south beyond Holay (at least until Lunar Tarsh). Orlanthi influence extends up into Holay and then off to the hills on either side (Aggar/Imther/Sylila), but not as strongly into Saird and the lowlands. But the melting pot is there and Yelmalio is far more part of that.

[jeffjerwin]

26 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, but those are southern tribes from Esrolia/Heortland not from Saird.

Why do you say that? On the same page it says that some of these tribes are Tarshite. On p.32 the Alda-Chur tribes include two 'Yelmalio' tribes, that is, former Elmali tribes. On p.41 the 'Golden Spearman' cult in Alda-Chur is said to have been newly identified by Lunar missionaries with the son of Emperor Yelm. On p.44 we read:

"During the Resettlement era, the Vantaros were known for their Elmal Golden Spearman cult and famed as troll-fighters. However, in the last century the Elmal Golden Spearman cult came under heavy cultural influence from the lowland solar cults of Dara Happa and Saird. After Monrogh revealed that they actually worshiped Yelmalio the Cold Sun, the Vantaros tribe became the only tribe in Sartar that embraced Yelmalio; elsewhere the Yelmalio cultists left their clans and tribes to join the Sun Dome Temple in south Sartar."

It seems like declaring the Vantaros to have always been Yelmalions is a retcon.

Alda-Chur was founded by Tarshites, i.e., descendants of Holayans and Aggari immigrants to Dragon Pass, as we read later on the same page:

"Taros Ridgeleaper from Tarsh established Aldachur in the ruins of the fortress of Baran Breakearth, a great hero from before the Dragonkill."

I'm just saying these explicit statements in an official publication don't seem to require a retcon, given that Six Ages states that the Holayan-predecessor people called their god Elmal. I do think that the Hendriki Elmal (which fed the later Yelmalio cult of Vaantar) was probably quite different from the Elmal Golden Spearman cult that came from Tarsh and earlier from Holay/Aggar.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I can't comment on the overall narrative. It is a fine one, as it appears to me, but I've no real horse in the race and neither the knowledge to evaluate against any thoughts of my own. 

The Hyalorings of Nivorah are horse-riders (cf Fortunate Succession p85 where Vuranostum is listed as a Horse Emperor).  The Chariot Emperors come from what is now the Elf Sea, up the Arcos River and into Dara Happa from the north (Jenarong and his offspring are depicted as chariot riders).  

[Grievous]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Hyalorings of Nivorah are horse-riders (cf Fortunate Succession p85 where Vuranostum is listed as a Horse Emperor).  The Chariot Emperors come from what is now the Elf Sea, up the Arcos River and into Dara Happa from the north (Jenarong and his offspring are depicted as chariot riders).  

Six Ages has them both likely originally coming from Nivorah, though. The horse-riders and chariot folks will have gotten spread out since, and have come back from those spread out places..

[Joerg]

Hyalorings come from wherever Yamsur was worshiped - and that's not Dara Happa or the Oslir Valley. Yamsur and his peoples were lost to history and mostly memory for their participation in the Battle of Earthfall. They were associates of Genert. It is possible that the mention of Yelmalio that turned the migration group of Gash and Gore westward was really Yamsur, allied with those new-fangled Brown Elves that suddenly appear on the maps as if they, too, were underworld spawn taking turns living on the surface world.

We know that there were Hyaloring pure horse people in "Saird" (modern Sylila) at the Dawn, and that one of them - Vuranoste - became emperor a few years after the death of Jenarong's son Horse on Table. We also know that he overcame other horse riders - in all likelihood Nivorah-descended ones - in the course of his ascension to emperorhood.

We know that Hyaloring horse people - no information whether "pure" or not - married into two of the Vingkotling tribes, the Summer tribe of the Orgovaltes following the example of the Winter Tribe of the Berennethtelli. (Now that in itself sounds a bit like an anachronism.)

There is no mention of Kargzant in any of Plentonius' texts on ancient Dara Happa. Instead he has Reladivus (Gods Wall 1-4), the male form of the horse goddess Reladiva, as overseer over Nivorah since Murharzarm's time, and the mutilated, horse-headed underworld goddess Gamara as its nurturer.

 

Other than the proximity of Vuranoste's group to Jillaro, I can find nothing that ties Hyalor, Hippogriff or Hippoi to the city of Nivorah. There is a certain mythic overlap between Gamara losing her arms (GRoY) to Hippogriff losing her wings, but then Gerra is losing her arms, too. (Gerra IV-16 and Gamara IV-18 are separated by Gorgorma on the Gods Wall.) Rashorana completes the "falling from the sky, mutilated" trio on the Gods Wall, less so in the stick figure version of GRoY, but in the Guide's version that was also the base for the colored pieces on the GM screen.

Gamara has a halo of eight integral-shaped rays that she shares with Urengerum (III-17, of Elempur), Erissa (II-19) and (not in the stick-figures) Bijiif (IV-24). Given Urengerum's association with Elempur, this might be relevant for info about Saird.

 

2 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Six Ages has them both likely originally coming from Nivorah, though.

Apparently Six Ages treats all horse-related people and all Nivorah-related people as kin. For the purposes of this game, that makes sense, but in my opinion,

There is a myth how Zarkosite goat herders encountered Kargzant, and learned to build and drive chariots in what looks like the post-glacial, from which Jenarong and other chariot emperors of Dara Happa stem.

Measured with the activities of the Vingkotlings relative to the advance of the ice, the Berennethtelli appear to be in the picture long before the ice comes into their vicinity, in the early Vingkotling Age when Vingkot still was king.

While there are people who want to dissociate the attack of the Ram People under Erlandus or Elemalus from the raid of the four sons of Vingkot that preceded the destruction of the Lastralgortelli, there is at least a reflection of events with Urvairinus victory over the Ram People that helped Manarlavus create a dome that withstood the advance of the glacier with the Iron Ram as their bowsprit parting the ice.

And - if the merger of the Six Ages viewpoint people with the ram people is meant to lead to the creation of the Berennethtelli, then making a distinction between Ram People and Vingkotlings would be contradictory.

The destruction of the Lastragortelli at the start of Kodig's reign ends the era of the formation of summer and winter tribes and starts the star tribe era of the Vingkotlings, leading to the Vingkotling tribes ending on -vuli, led by daughters of Kodig (the Liornvuli) and Korol (the Forosilvuli), both resident on Kordros Island in the heartlands of Tarsh. The Berennethtelli are established by this time, as are the Penentelli, Infithtelli, Vestantes and Orgovaltes. Berennethtelli and Orgovaltes have Hyaloring husband founders.

This puts the marriage of Redaylde Vingkotsdaughter with Beren the Rider of the Hyalorings long before the Glacier gathered momentum, and even longer before Nivorah was threatened by it.

To me, the secret of riding bled to (some of) the gamari people of or near Nivorah and led to them riding away from the city with their possessions on ox carts significantly after the Hyaloring weddings of the Berennethtelli and Orgovaltes. That makes Elmal a sky god, possibly Yamsur, or the brother of Yamsur and Yelorna, elsewhere named Yelmalio.

 

When did Reladivus become the star/roving planet deity Kargzant? Did Reladivus become Kargzant at all? Was the super-imposition of Kargzant with Reladivus an acknowledgement of the conquest of the Lightfore planet by that star deity?

The Sourcebook has Lightfore in the shape of Kargzant descend into the Underworld, and the remaining Sun Disk in the shape of Antirius faded away after having been swallowd by Manarlavus' Dome. In the shape of Elmal, the Sun Disk rested dimly atop Kero Fin, and in shape of Yelmalio Lightfore never entered the Underworld.

Dayzatar descended from his perch in the upper sky only once, to rescue Lightfore. This can be tied to Plentonius' dates for the ascent of Kargzant (never acknowledged to have a previous existence in the Anaxial dynasty era) and the re-ascent of Shargash, and their battle in the sky known as the Sun Swirl during Jenarong's reign, weakening the Red Planet.

 

Reladiva and Gamara - planetary daughter and overseer of Nivorah under Murharzarm, and Underworld fallen horse-headed sky goddess and nurturer of the city.

There is no way that Reladiva is the daughter of Vingkot, but there is a strong suggestion that she might be Redalda, the horse-loving daughter of Ernalda (without any specified father, may well have been the sun horse). Vinkot's Winter Wife's daughter Redaylde is then an avatar of Redalda.

 

Yamsur was the Charioteer of the Sun, or - according to Wyrm's Footprints p.61 - the general of the Army of Light for Yelm. Or whoever was the owner rather than leader of that army at the Battle of Earth Fall, where the devil slew this son of Yelm. Yamsur appears to be a Hill of Gold quester, he was wounded by Zorak Zoran "aided by many allies" which might translate to Orlanth and Inora (or avatars thereof), prior to his demise at Earthfall.

The "who the heck was Lightfore" and the destruction of many memories about Yamsur sort of complement one another.

The Tale of the Horse in the original Wyrm's Footnotes article on the Gods of Sky reprinted without direct edits in Wyrm's Footprints other than added side-bars names Hyalor as the descendant of Yamsur. Hippogriff too had been wounded by Zorak Zoran, and in addition by a "daughter of Kero Fin" (Maran Gor rather than Inora) and a son of Umath (Storm Bull rather than Orlanth) in what may have been her own Hill of Gold experience.

This is one important piece of the old Gods of Sky article that is missing from the Sourcebook. I wonder why.

 

2 minutes ago, Grievous said:

The horse-riders and chariot folks will have gotten spread out since, and have come back from those spread out places..

Yamsur would have been a chariot god. Only his descendant Hyalor instituted horse riding among the solar people. (Eiritha beast riding may have preceded that.)

 

What is Kargzant's presence in the Six Ages context? Is Elmal's role that of Lightfore, or that of the cooling remains of the Sun Disk?

/

 

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Sir Godspeed is correct. I am drawing my theories from Six Ages. I have represented what the game depicts, in the understanding that the Riders (who call themselves thus, rather than Hyalorings) are being depicted as a part of Gloranthan history, not a non-canon outlier. Other survivors of Nivorah are Wheels (chariot-riders) and Walkers, and they don't get along with the Riders. Not all riders are Pure Horse (the player clan is not, and those that are are a distinct minority). This wiki, however, may prove more instructive than what I can tell you: https://sixages.fandom.com/wiki/Six_Ages_Wiki

There is no question that Holayan and Berenethtelli history from before Holay is deeply connected with how the game depicts the region.

Ulanin the Rider might come from Prax, but the Riders of Beren are from Nivorah. The Hyalor legend is represented in the game as indigenous to Nivorah, though this could be the blinders that the Riders themselves have. Certainly they make no mention of Prax or Genert's Garden. Yamsur, Little Sun, Elmal, and other sons of Yelm are depicted as different deities, but this may also be their point of view. The endgame does make clear that Beren's clan tends to see things in a less expansive way than their own gods.

I posit that the Berennethtelli would have formed in the reign of Kodig, which would be around the reign of Urvairinus rather than Manarlarvus. If we identify the Ram People in Dara Happan myths with the Vingkotlings, then the destruction of Elempur was by the united raid of Kodig, Korol, Lastralgor and Jorganos, and the successful defense of Nivorah by Urvairinus was against the Lastragortelli. If we don't identify the Ram People with the Vingkotlings, then there is no way that the Six Ages prehistory results in the Berennethtelli tribe.

Urvairinus conquest of the Iron Ram is essential to Manarlavus's doming of Dara Happa. This canon is necessary for the basic assumption of the Nivorah story.

With the last of the summer and winter tribes formed before the first star tribes (Forosilvuli and Liornvuli) in the reign of Kodig, this leaves the founding of the Berennethtelli and the Orgovaltes in the reign of Vingkot. Hyaloring Vingkotlings would be an established fact by the time Nivorah is overrun by the glacier.

BTW, the identification of Mirin's Cross with the site of Nivorah is presented in the Guide as "Imperial propaganda". Looking at the mention of Reladiva for Jillaro in Anaxial's Roster, I think that Jillaro is a better candidate for Nivorah, also if you want to leave the Black Eel River free of ice while Nivorah is overrun by the glacier.

Finally, the Berennethtelli occupy a place in what would become the Provincial Kingdom of Aggar at the Dawn, not Holay. The story of Six Ages takes place in eastern Saird, away from Berennethtelli lands.

 

IMO the Nivorah folk had contact and cultural and cultic exchange with pure horse people Hyaloring riders before the arrival of the glacier in front of Yuthuppa, and had learned riding and other stuff from the pure horse people. They retained their Buserian/Busenari cattle.

 

10 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Elempur does not appear but is mentioned as destroyed by the Rams; the ruins can be visited. It typically appears south of the Black Eel lands in the midst of all the Rams. Its god is not named.

Certainly Six Ages counts as much or more than secondary material developed a dozen or more years ago. I recommend trying out the game.

As long as the primary material from Wyrm's Footnotes 9 or so (Gods of Fire) remains as counting at least as much.

I have the game, but I haven't found time to start playing yet. But much like the game King of Dragon Pass didn't result in the Sartar dynasty creating a country that gets wealthy from road-building and trade, I don't expect Six Ages: Ride like the Storm to result in the creation of the Berennethtelli tribe, especially not if the game is on clan level like KoDP is.

That means yes to all the local detail the game creates, and no to any changes to the story as presented in the sources other than added detail.

 

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I posit that the Berennethtelli would have formed in the reign of Kodig, which would be around the reign of Urvairinus rather than Manarlarvus. If we identify the Ram People in Dara Happan myths with the Vingkotlings, then the destruction of Elempur was by the united raid of Kodig, Korol, Lastralgor and Jorganos, and the successful defense of Nivorah by Urvairinus was against the Lastragortelli. If we don't identify the Ram People with the Vingkotlings, then there is no way that the Six Ages prehistory results in the Berennethtelli tribe.

Urvairinus conquest of the Iron Ram is essential to Manarlavus's doming of Dara Happa. This canon is necessary for the basic assumption of the Nivorah story.

With the last of the summer and winter tribes formed before the first star tribes (Forosilvuli and Liornvuli) in the reign of Kodig, this leaves the founding of the Berennethtelli and the Orgovaltes in the reign of Vingkot. Hyaloring Vingkotlings would be an established fact by the time Nivorah is overrun by the glacier.

BTW, the identification of Mirin's Cross with the site of Nivorah is presented in the Guide as "Imperial propaganda". Looking at the mention of Reladiva for Jillaro in Anaxial's Roster, I think that Jillaro is a better candidate for Nivorah, also if you want to leave the Black Eel River free of ice while Nivorah is overrun by the glacier.

Finally, the Berennethtelli occupy a place in what would become the Provincial Kingdom of Aggar at the Dawn, not Holay. The story of Six Ages takes place in eastern Saird, away from Berennethtelli lands.

Remember of course the God-time is perceived differently by different groups. There is no strict linear series of events.

In Six Ages, for reference, the Rams are indeed Vingkotlings. The culmination of the game, as in King of Dragon Pass, is the founding of a new tribe/nation, the Berenethtelli (compelled by a catastrophe). The game begins with the Glacier having already happened, and Nivorah crushed by its wall. It is indeed at Jillaro, not in Saird. It is Elempur that lies in the vicinity of Mirin's Cross, not Nivorah, so there it agrees with you. Vingkot is an ancestor, it appears, of Redalda, not her literal father (though that is still possible; she is titled "Daughter of Vingkot', and Vingkot is known to have ruled in the past, before Nivorah was destroyed).

However the Berenethtelli form in the game well before the Greater Darkness, so they may have moved, being Riders, in the meantime. The Dawn is still many relative years to go.

Edit: the game has a stronger, somewhat more railroady narrative than KoDS. It clearly is depicting a series of events (should the clan survive) that result in history rather than a what-if series of events that has a freeform ending. The name of the clan, some cultural details and the composition of the clan leadership are all up to the player. The game's implied sequel is playing as the Berenethtelli.

Edited January 21, 2020 by jeffjerwin

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Remember of course the God-time is perceived differently by different groups. There is no strict linear series of events.

That's why I tried to use scales like the advance of the glacier or the sudden "melt" as the incursion of Chaos from the north annihilated the central axis of the ice sheet. And yes, all of the Ice Age predates the Greater Darkness. The Ice is shattered as a side effect of Zzabur's Great Blast which coincides with/aids the implosion of the Spike and the opening of the Chaos Rift.

The Greater Darkness starts with the implosion of the Spike, or locally with one of the battles that brought Chaos a victory to get there (Earthfall). From what I have seen of Six Ages, the glaciers are stil on the advance, so the Greater Darkness hasn't come yet.

 

3 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

However the Berenethtelli form in the game well before the Greater Darkness, so they may have moved, being Riders, in the meantime. The Dawn is still many relative years to go.

The Vingkotling tribes have been shown as extremely territorial, with the Vingkotling founders' steads remaining the centers of the Heortling tribes in historical times. There was always some destruction of tribes going on, though.

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That's why I tried to use scales like the advance of the glacier or the sudden "melt" as the incursion of Chaos from the north annihilated the central axis of the ice sheet. And yes, all of the Ice Age predates the Greater Darkness. The Ice is shattered as a side effect of Zzabur's Great Blast which coincides with/aids the implosion of the Spike and the opening of the Chaos Rift.

The Greater Darkness starts with the implosion of the Spike, or locally with one of the battles that brought Chaos a victory to get there (Earthfall). From what I have seen of Six Ages, the glaciers are stil on the advance, so the Greater Darkness hasn't come yet.

 

The Vingkotling tribes have been shown as extremely territorial, with the Vingkotling founders' steads remaining the centers of the Heortling tribes in historical times. There was always some destruction of tribes going on, though.

Though Berenstead (Barnborn) is on the northern fringe of the Berenethtelli territory at the dawn. Perhaps the Lenesterings were a break-away group? They are incorporated into the Berenethtelli a few centuries later during the Broken Council period, when the Vanak Spear adventures were. The Berenethtelli by that point have even incorporated lands north of the Black Eel by that point.

In any case, I'm interested, moving forward (since there's only so much that can be wrung out of the First Age anyway) in reconstructing the Holayan culture of c.1330-1625, which must have some relationship to Arim's kingdom, even if Arim and his followers are being - like the Quivini - reactionary in their development of a new Tarshite identity.

There's some old Aggar stuff in Enclosure 2 (1998) - by David Millions - and also by him in Moon Rites (2002).The Enclosure 2 article describes a culture fairly similar to that of 'modern' Tarsh or Sartar. The Moon Rites stuff renames some of the gods: we have Omath instead of Orlanth, Yurmal in the place of Eurmal, Ernalda, Elmal, and Odayla.

Is there an Alakoring king/chiefship rite in Holay?

Is Yelmalio the consort of Ernalda?

Who does Redalda/Reladiva wed? Reladivus? And what god is he? Do the bells of Filichet have some relationship to the Bells of the Sun? (Thinking on this, if Nivorah had the lost bell goddess, is Nivorah the Afterworld for the descendants of the Riders? Are the bells of the Sun the bells of death because one is nearing the city of the dead? But surely the riders live on as riders, not in a city...)

Did Hon-Eel reshape the Earth cult here as well as in Tarsh?

What are the monsters on the walls of Fyllich Kwan?

If Barnborn is Berenstead or Barntar's Sheaf is this 'known' mythically, or has the Empire and its predecessors synthesized a new myth for Holay? How far is the mythic horizon?

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Is Yelmalio the consort of Ernalda?

He is one.

21 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Who does Redalda/Reladiva wed?

Despite word similarity, Reladiva was always intended to be the Earth/land goddess, not the horse goddess and associated with Negalla the Green Woman. Redalda/Redayla, etc. was a distinct horse goddess and goddess of sovereignty. The latter was associated with and weds Hyalor/Beren (e.g. GtG p.335).  The former with the Sun God Heliacal (i.e. Yelm and/or Yelmalio).

[jeffjerwin]

21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Despite word similarity, Reladiva was always intended to be the Earth/land goddess, not the horse goddess and associated with Negalla the Green Woman. Redalda/Redayla, etc. was a distinct horse goddess and goddess of sovereignty. The latter was associated with and weds Hyalor/Beren (e.g. GtG p.335).  The former with the Sun God Heliacal (i.e. Yelm and/or Yelmalio).

I'm confused, then, by the reference in the HQ Pavis book (p.326 in my pdf) which associates the names 'Redalda, Horse-Goddess, and Horse-Loving Daughter of Vingkot' and 'Servant of Reladivus' with the horse-headed mask in the Lunar ceremony. The Lunars seem to associate her with Hippoi/Gamari and the Sartarites with the woman who rides the horse. Of course 'servant of Reladivus' (who must be the consort-figure to Reladiva) might mean something different.

Are the Lunars messing around here (some of their other 'associations/synchretisms' are also questionable in other contexts) or is there a late Third Age confusion between Redalda and Reladiva? Obviously Redalda is a demigoddess and somehow coexistent with Reladiva in the godtime. In our world, of course, the Greeks and Romans would make a lot of hay out of 'similar names'. Maybe this is more of the same? But even if mistaken, the blending of two entities might still stick, as it might in our world.

[jeffjerwin]

Also, are there other consorts to Redalda besides Beren-Hyalor? If she's been synthesized to Reladiva (I don't know if she has, but that's one possibility), then is Reladivus a Little Sun?

(this also brings up whether Redalda in Holay is a mare goddess as well as a rider-goddess, and if so if Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant/Yelmalio could be another mate)

In Six Ages, Reladivus is the son of Elmal and of Nivorah the city-goddess (I wonder if she is in fact the Bell-goddess). But sons are expressions of their father, at least in Solar myth (and many others). He is involved in taming Oslira.

[Sir_Godspeed]

17 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Reladivus a Little Sun?

According to Six Ages, Reladivus is the son of Elmal, and specifically the city god of Nivorah. In this respect he is a lot like Alkor is to Shargash, imho, both a separate entity and a devolved specialized aspect. 

This is further complicated by, as mentioned above, the Dara Happan Empire apparently removing all mentions of Elmal from their records, and elevating Reladivus to the position of planetary god of Nivorah, which effectively makes him a kind of Little Sun as far as I'm concerned, although this is a *very* wide definition of "Little Sun" (by this definition Shargash is also a Little Sun, for instance - and while he is is a Planetary Deity, he is certainly not associated with Lightfore in any way that I know). 

This brings us to Time, I guess. I don't know Saird's history very well, but if old pre-Time traditions were taken up, I'd imagine them looking to Reladivus for certain celestial ideas, I guess. Overall I think the urban community aspect would be more important?

(There is a weird thing about him taming Arcos, which I'm confused by, since I thought Nivorah was further west, but my knowledge here is patchy).

[jeffjerwin]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

According to Six Ages, Reladivus is the son of Elmal, and specifically the city god of Nivorah. In this respect he is a lot like Alkor is to Shargash, imho, both a separate entity and a devolved specialized aspect. 

This is further complicated by, as mentioned above, the Dara Happan Empire apparently removing all mentions of Elmal from their records, and elevating Reladivus to the position of planetary god of Nivorah, which effectively makes him a kind of Little Sun as far as I'm concerned, although this is a *very* wide definition of "Little Sun" (by this definition Shargash is also a Little Sun, for instance - and while he is is a Planetary Deity, he is certainly not associated with Lightfore in any way that I know). 

This brings us to Time, I guess. I don't know Saird's history very well, but if old pre-Time traditions were taken up, I'd imagine them looking to Reladivus for certain celestial ideas, I guess. Overall I think the urban community aspect would be more important?

(There is a weird thing about him taming Arcos, which I'm confused by, since I thought Nivorah was further west, but my knowledge here is patchy).

I think the various cities of Dara Happa, rather like the American colonies, claimed 'bands' of Peloria. Arcos as it leaves the Elf Sea is directly east of Jillaro/Nivorah.

Your mention of Reladivus as a 'replacement' to Elmal might be a key aspect to how he 'rules over' Redalda. And if Nivorah is falsely equated with Mirin's Cross, the 'mastery' aspect of the whole construction could be as a replacement to Beren (who is an Elmal hero, and hence a representative/mortal reflection of his god, like Vingkot is of Orlanth).

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

I think the various cities of Dara Happa, rather like the American colonies, claimed 'bands' of Peloria. Arcos as it leaves the Elf Sea is directly east of Jillaro/Nivorah.

 

I suppose, though the game makes it seem like it flows just sort of past Nivorah. I suppose it's possible Nivorah was located eastwards of where Jillaro is today - or even that the Arcos riverbed was further to the west. It's the God Time, stuff happens. 

It's very possible that keying into Reladivus is useful to establishing some rulership rituals/protections. I'm not so familiar with how this works for city gods or male mastery gods - I suppose the land sovereignty goddess model of sacred marriage doesn't quite work here - unless the male temporal ruler becomes a priest of the male mastery god and then enters either into a sacred marriage or in some way lays claim to God-Time-derived rulership. EDIT: Shargash/Alkor and the two goddesses they married comes to mind. A grain goddess and a river goddess, to be fair, but close enough in that they give legal claim to territorial control.

Possibly this is also why the Dara Happan tripolis has remained so stable for several millennia, both pre- and post-Time. Not just the bonds of the Emperor, but the identification between the city god as both ruler and gestalt spirit of the community and its temporal ruler - but now I'm getting off track and getting a bit too general and wishy washy.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Are the Lunars messing around here (some of their other 'associations/synchretisms' are also questionable in other contexts) or is there a late Third Age confusion between Redalda and Reladiva?

If you look at GRoY, Reladivus is the planetary god associated with and ruling Nivorah, and the goddess identified was Gamara, a horse goddess.  Then there is the separate association of Beren with Redaylda, a horse goddess.

A way to mythically get "command" or "control" of a given deity is to equate the Orlanthi horse goddess with the horse goddess from DH, wherein the latter is subject to Reladivus who in turn is a subject of Yelm.  All very good for the Lunars.

The transmutation of Reladivus into Reladiva occurred when I was working with Greg on developing Saird, and I thought it made sense that the DH would suppress the underlying Earth goddess by changing her name into a masculine form and relegating her under Yelm. But pruning that back away, you find that Reladiva is really the earth/land goddess of Saird. And Greg liked that direction and encouraged it. But there was some point where I suggested mashing together Reladiva and Redaylda, and he didn't go for that, so the two definitely appeared distinct in his mind (basically the Green Goddess of Earth/Land and the Red Goddess of Horses/Sovereignty).  As I connected the myths of Saird, Imther, and Vanch, Reladiva connected to Nealda and Negalla respectively (and in turn Nealda fed into David D.'s work on Six Ages to morph into Nyalda). And Reladiva also connects to Ernalda and the myths of Ernalda as consort to Yelm.

The central aspect of Saird that I worked towards is that it is the broken remnant of the Bowl of Reladiva, a vast and wonderful garden surrounded by the perfectly circular wall of the Sun consort.

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Also, are there other consorts to Redalda besides Beren-Hyalor?

Not that I recall.

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

then is Reladivus a Little Sun

In the theory of GRoY, including the Gods Wall, he's one of the planetary/celestial deities. But he gets destroyed fairly early.

Keep in mind that Nivorah has very few associations other than the names of Reladivus and Gamara. It's actual location remains a speculative mystery though many cities (Jillaro, Mirin's Cross, probably Filichet) may lay claim to it.  It might not even have been in the Oslir valley.  Plentonius is not a reliable author.

 

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The transmutation of Reladivus into Reladiva occurred when I was working with Greg on developing Saird, and I thought it made sense that the DH would suppress the underlying Earth goddess by changing her name into a masculine form and relegating her under Yelm. But pruning that back away, you find that Reladiva is really the earth/land goddess of Saird. And Greg liked that direction and encouraged it. But there was some point where I suggested mashing together Reladiva and Redaylda, and he didn't go for that, so the two definitely appeared distinct in his mind (basically the Green Goddess of Earth/Land and the Red Goddess of Horses/Sovereignty).  As I connected the myths of Saird, Imther, and Vanch, Reladiva connected to Nealda and Negalla respectively (and in turn Nealda fed into David D.'s work on Six Ages to morph into Nyalda). And Reladiva also connects to Ernalda and the myths of Ernalda as consort to Yelm.

The central aspect of Saird that I worked towards is that it is the broken remnant of the Bowl of Reladiva, a vast and wonderful garden surrounded by the perfectly circular wall of the Sun consort.

This is really interesting, thanks for sharing!

[jeffjerwin]

Ok, so Reladiva = original Sairdite land goddess

Reladivus = Dara Happan regendering of Reladiva as city god of Nivorah

What about this one: Erladivus. He's the son of Jakragriand/Shargash in Heortling myth, who was beheaded by Vinga. We can ignore the link to Shargash, because that god is mythically identified with Solar hostility and the death of Umath, hence the vendetta theme might be introduced rather than original.

The Er- Re- prefix are pretty much variants of each other, i.e., *Erladiva = Ernalda.

Now Redalda is the red-headed goddess of horses, and manifested as Reydalda the red-headed daughter of Vingkot. In the Erladivus legend, Orlanth changed his gender to Vinga to fight him because he had the boon of being defeated by no man. But from the 'When Vinga Got Pregnant' legend we know that Erladivus as Vinga's enemy is separate from Vinga as a form of Orlanth (and is probably told without that detail): Vinga is a Thunder Brother and like the others is a part of Orlanth as well as a separate entity. There is zero mention of Vinga in Six Ages, though she shares the Ving- prefix of Vingkot.

What's weird about this: first, the city god of Elempur would be expected to be the one beheaded, not Erladivus/Reladivus. Second, if *Erladiv[us] is a consort-figure to rule over the land-goddess, is this a retelling of Orlanth versus the Bad Emperor? Except, as with the Pelandan myth, the red-headed daughter kills her own father in revenge for his subjugation of her mother?

I don't know.

It does strike me that as with other red-headed rebellious women, the authority of the Emperor might not be very secure over the Queen of Holay.

Also, one more bit of 'etymology' Holay is a near anagram and possible descendant word from Hyalo[r]. Is Holay simply a Holayan/Tarshite word for Hyalor? Is this why 'Queen Holay' refounded the Redalda cult? Did it develop synthetically in order to amass legitimacy from the Dara Happan successor state of Verenmar's Saird?

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

It does strike me that as with other red-headed rebellious women, the authority of the Emperor might not be very secure over the Queen of Holay.

And so you put a Lunar Provincial Overseer in Mirin's Cross who is also your son and that fulfills various rituals that keep the Queen of Holay in check. 

4 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Is Holay simply a Holayan/Tarshite word for Hyalor?

Not all similar word spellings imply they are the same. 

4 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Is this why 'Queen Holay' refounded the Redalda cult?

I made Holaya a Pure Horse Rider who fled 2nd Age Prax and journeyed through Dragon Pass to reach the lands south of the Black Eel. The name of the Kingdom came from her. (There was nothing at the time to indicate an earlier origin of the kingdom's name - just that it was part of Saird.) But I thought it fit and gave opportunity to reestablish a horse-riding folk where Redaylda and Beren had lived.

Here's part of the story out of the Verenmars Saga on the journey towards the north (there are others about Verenmars befriending her and giving her a place in Saird):

The Saga of Holaya by Harald Smith, copyright 1996-2019

When the Goldtooth Demon arose amongst the foes of the Tessarae[1], the Starreaders came before the tribe and spoke.  They said that this was the long-awaited sign of the end of their exile from the land of the Heart.  But the Lawspeakers also spoke and they said that though the sign was true, they could not leave for the children of the Kargzant had called for their aid against the Goldtooth Demon.

Thus the Tessarae were torn between their desires and their word until the Eldest Mother spoke.  She said they must answer both calls or each and every soul would die forever.  So the Tessarae were divided.  The Sun Wheel gathered the warriors to his side and they marched to join the children of Kargzant against the Goldtooth Demon and its hordes.  But the Eldest Mother gathered the tribe’s elders and women and children and set out upon the Last Light trail to return to the Heart.

The Sun Wheel and his warriors fell in battle, devoured by the Goldtooth Demon.[2]  Only one man found the Last Light trail to bring news of this defeat to the tribe.  He told of beastmen who aided the Goldtooth Demon and the fall of the Giant’s Ring before the children of Kargzant betrayed the Sun Wheel and proved their cowardice.

When the elders and lawspeakers came before the Eldest Mother, they asked her to choose the next Sun Wheel.  But she refused.  She said that no Sun Wheel could be chosen until the Heart was found.  But she also said they would not be leaderless for they would have the Hazaripa[3] to lead them.  And the Eldest Mother also named the Hazaripa to be Holaya, first daughter of the serpent clan, though she had just seen her first blood.

Holaya then led the Tessarae onward, guided by the Starreaders and the Lawspeakers and the Eldest Mother.  When they came to the land of the Raging Storms, the Dragons stirred the hill tribes against them by calling the Tessarae spawn of the demons.

When the hill tribes attacked the Tessarae, Holaya called upon the Red River for aid.  Her call was answered by the thunders.  The hill tribes stopped to wait for the thunders to arrive for they still worshipped an aging bull in their hearts.  But it was not their bull which came, but the Red Man and he brought his spears amongst the hill tribes and slew them all until the rivers below them did indeed run red.

The Starreaders spoke against this place, though, and the Lawspeakers said that no laws could be made there.  So Holaya led her folk on into the heart of the Dragon.  There the Earth Dragon trapped the people of Holaya in land divided by great fissures.

When the Earth Dragon rose against them, Holaya called upon the Eldest Mother to act for her people.  The Eldest Mother responded and led forth her companions, bound by ancient yokes so that the Earth Dragon waited to consume them.  But the Eldest Mother knew more of the earth than the Earth Dragon and through her sacrifice she transformed the Earth Dragon into a bridge for her folk.

Though Holaya and her people mourned their loss, the Starreaders spoke against this place and the Lawspeakers said that no laws could be made there.  So Holaya turned her folk to the north to seek the Heart.

[1] one of the names for Holaya’s tribe, though there are others.

[2] one of Jaldon Goldentooth’s battles outside Pavis between 927 and 940, probably closer to the latter. (see River of Cradles p.12)

[3] possibly Red River Guide or River Horse Rider.

[jeffjerwin]

This story takes place in the 940s? 

Of course the ghost/wyter of Re[y]dalda could have joined with Holaya's people and helped them when they entered Saird.