What is a "Shaman"?

[Shiningbrow]

Not the simple question you think it is.

Many cults don't allow their initiates to be or become shamans (nor sorcerers, not to even know sorcery).

However, it should be possible to awaken a Fetch without being formally taught by a Shaman, or being part of a spirit cult. 

Similarly, being an initiate of a spirit cult clearly doesn't exempt one from joining other deity cults, nor even having trained as an assistant shaman.

Orlanthi still sometimes have ancestor worship, and Kolati are shamans - so odd that there appears to be this ban for them.

Anyway - what's the line??? 

The fetch? The title? The responsibility? The Abilities? Or...???

[Richard S.]

Why should it be possible to awaken a Fetch without going through the education process? A Shaman is someone who has a Fetch, a second self in the spirit world, which gives them greater power within it. The abilities are a package deal with the Fetch. If you don't have a Fetch, you aren't a shaman, plain and simple. What a cult means when it says you cannot be a shaman and an initiate at the same time is that you cannot have a Fetch and remain an initiate of that cult. Worshipping your ancestors does not preclude you from being in a cult that forbids shamans, so long as you are not one yourself, and many cults, such as Kolat and Daka Fal, accept shamans into the priestly hierarchy.

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Why should it be possible to awaken a Fetch without going through the education process? A Shaman is someone who has a Fetch, a second self in the spirit world, which gives them greater power within it. The abilities are a package deal with the Fetch. If you don't have a Fetch, you aren't a shaman, plain and simple. What a cult means when it says you cannot be a shaman and an initiate at the same time is that you cannot have a Fetch and remain an initiate of that cult. Worshipping your ancestors does not preclude you from being in a cult that forbids shamans, so long as you are not one yourself, and many cults, such as Kolat and Daka Fal, accept shamans into the priestly hierarchy.

In theory, your fetch could be awakened by Heroquesting.

The Abilities that come with it are (apparently) given by some entity (does the Bad Man actually give abilities ???), but can also be granted by other gods and as HQ rewards.

It's not the training per se that gives you the fetch, it's how Spirit Dance is used in a very specific way (time and place). Probably with some input by the Horned Man (or similar). Again, I don't see a logical reason why a Fetch can be awakened through other means.

I fully get the "a shaman has a Fetch", but sufficient and necessary aren't the same thing, nor does it mean that it's the only requirement.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

A Shaman is someone who has a Fetch

Agree. If you somehow manage this without the formal training, you’re still a shaman.

Might as well try to say ”I’m not a sorcerer, I just so happen to know sorcery.”

[Shiningbrow]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. If you somehow manage this without the formal training, you’re still a shaman.

Might as well try to say ”I’m not a sorcerer, I just so happen to know sorcery.”

In old RQ, that would be valid! Apprentice Bonding Ritual was required to be an apprentice, and you needed a Familiar to be considered a real sorcerer. However, you could still learn basic sorcery without that.

I'm under the impression that Argrath is trying to combine magical styles, including having people have something similar to awakening a Fetch, without the formalities of true cult-ural shamanism - hence this thread.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm under the impression that Argrath is trying to combine magical styles, including having people have something similar to awakening a Fetch, without the formalities of true cult-ural shamanism - hence this thread.

Argrath gets to make up any new rules he likes for himself, that's practically canon.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Austin]

50 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm under the impression that Argrath is trying to combine magical styles, including having people have something similar to awakening a Fetch, without the formalities of true cult-ural shamanism - hence this thread.

Small potential spoilers for the adventure "The Grove of Green Rock" in TSR ahead:

This is largely wild speculation, but maybe a shaman's fetch has parallels to how Heroes work? At the end of "Grove" one of the rewards the adventurers get is they can sacrifice POW to store in the God World which bolsters their normal POW in the same way a fetch's POW bolsters the shaman's (p.187). I seem to recall discussion before around here about a "hero self" which people in Glorantha can awaken. I could see Argrath trying to find a way to sort of mass-produce Heroes using shaman tricks.

[scott-martin]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Anyway - what's the line??? 

From the perspective of theistic cult authorities, I actually think it's the attitude. It probably isn't posted official policy anywhere . . . there's unlikely to be a little placard in the vestibule of every shrine, "No Shamans, No Sorcerers" . . . but heterodox consciousness leaves marks that a halfway alert god talker can recognize. In other words, POW speaks to POW and a fully hatched shaman will present so weirdly to the examiners that s/he will almost always fail to convince. The theistic community doesn't really need to know or care about what a fetch is, what color yours is, how you were trained or any of that Great Expectations crap. You're a weirdo and the cult rejects you.

This rejection is part of the shamanic awakening process for many people born in the wrong place and time. It's okay. Robust societies develop ways to redirect your abilities in a context that works out for everyone. In Dragon Pass, for example, you could have ended up with the weirdos at Old Wind or found a niche in the magical ecology of a local community. Now, of course, some talent scout in the Sartar Magical Union will probably grab you and the problem is solved. If you aren't in a robust enough society, you wander until you stop.

Functionally the nature of the initiation into the fetch ("how heroes work") is definitely a factor into why you freak the mundanes but very few Gloranthans are in a position to even theorize about this. And if you try to support yourself doing shamanic work in the community, the authorities are definitely going to resent a competitor, especially if you're better at what you do than they are.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

5 hours ago, Crel said:

I could see Argrath trying to find a way to sort of mass-produce Heroes using shaman tricks.

Hey everybody, Argrath is a

Godlearner!

[French Desperate WindChild]

I would say that if your fetch emerges when you are initiate, the cult may use divination to define if yes or not the god accepts you like "that", if you are his "champion" (then your way in the cult could be faster) or just an accepted weirdos (then your way in the cult could be lower). And nothing says that shaman societies will accept you if you are initiate of this god who refuses other shamans as initiate

[SDLeary]

A fetch can exist when you are born, you simply cannot control or communicate with it. 

Noticing that a person has a fetch is one of the things that marks them as Touched, and suitable to become an apprentice. It is then up to the Shaman or God-Talker of the community to further study the child to see if they are worthy. If they are, then guide them to someone that can teach them.

"Awakening" the fetch is more establishing a way to communicate with it outside your dreams/nightmares/visions.

SDLeary

[g33k]

As @Shiningbrow says above -- it seems possible that a Fetch (and/or any other elements deemed necessary to the definition of "Shaman") might be gained via Heroquest(s).

 

What then, for the character who's a member of -- let alone a Rune-Level in -- a "no Shamans" cult?

I mean... in the end, Heroquest-rewards are probably up to the GM.  So it ain't happening without GM approval; and "inflicting" Shamanism upon some poor Rune Priest whose player doesn't want it is frankly a Dick Move by a GM.

 

And to be brutally honest... adding Shaman abilities to Rune-Priest-Hood is veering into Mary-Sue territory, which frankly makes my teeth itch with the need to rip someth... errr, sorry.  Nevermind that.  But it's pretty clear that (a) Argrath himself is the result of exactly this sort of Mary-Sue-ing; and (b) the whole point of getting players into Heroquesting and Heroquest-rewards is to get them up to where they can have meaningful impact upon events in the Hero Wars... even upon Argrath and the other major figures.

So this stuff is coming!

 

And my best advice to anyone feeling their teeth begin to itch:  get a toothbrush.

Jar-Eel the dental-tech will be with you shortly.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by g33k
-- in

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

A fetch can exist when you are born, you simply cannot control or communicate with it. 

Isn't everybody born with a fetch? (or almost everybody) And it's just that only a few actually "awaken" it and get to control it?  I don't want fetches to become the new midichlorians

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. If you somehow manage this without the formal training, you’re still a shaman.

Maybe not what those assholes on the 4shaman forums say... "you're not a real shaman unless you have a shaman mentor who gives you drugs in the desert while you're dehydrated"... there's gatekeeping in Gloranthan tribes, too!

Edited January 17, 2020 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

What then, for the character who's a member of -- let alone a Rune-Level in -- a "no Shamans" cult?

It's a Curse! and a bad one for it will certainly invoke discord with the deity, and the deity will set its Spirits of Reprisal upon you (and your fetch given that they are "spirits" of reprisal).

Of course, such an event probably leads you further towards the other dire curse - Illumination! And we all know what comes of that...

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Again, I don't see a logical reason why a Fetch can be awakened through other means.

I'm sure it must happen. But the danger is that you're untrained to deal with what happens when the Fetch awakens.  It's like a great beacon in the Spirit World outing you to the Bad Man.  And perhaps in these cases, the Bad Man doesn't just go away in X rounds (which seems like a game mechanic to reflect what your shaman has taught you to do to get away from the Bad Man and survive).

[SDLeary]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Isn't everybody born with a fetch? (or almost everybody) And it's just that only a few actually "awaken" it and get to control it?  I don't want fetches to become the new midichlorians

Awww... I've been prequelled!   Such is brainstorming I guess.
 

Quote

 

All have a spirit, a spirit that is awakened is a fetch. Sometimes, children are born with an awakened spirit, and this can be visible to holy men of their communities. Holy men who see this generally consider it a sign that they have found someone that they should teach; or if they are unable to teach themselves, put on a path where they can learn from another to communicate with their other side. 

These are not the only markers. Sometimes when the child is in severe distress, their awakened spirit can manifest in this realm to try and protect them; generally appearing as an animal sacred to the child's community (this generally occurs when the child is  cowering or unconscious). Sometimes during such episodes, the child may glimpse their awakened spirit, and  know that it is there protecting them. On rare occasion, they may communicate with each other and establish an unbroken link, where one may call on the other for aid.

 

OK... so the way this is coming out sounds more like what might be called an allied sprit, but that's not really what I'm after. I'm trying to figure out a Gloranthan  equivalent to being "Touched" or "Born with the Sight". The thought of a child being born with an already awakened fetch seems that it could fit the bill. Perhaps on occasion, rather than three elemental runes, a child is born with two elemental runes and Sprirt.

SDLeary   

 

 

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I'm trying to figure out a Gloranthan  equivalent to being "Touched" or "Born with the Sight". The thought of a child being born with an already awakened fetch seems that it could fit the bill. Perhaps on occasion, rather than three elemental runes, a child is born with two elemental runes and Sprirt.

Yeah having an innate affinity for the Spirit Rune would fit that trope nicely. Cue the kid, hidden under a bear skin, saying "I see... dead people...".

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, SDLeary said:

OK... so the way this is coming out sounds more like what might be called an allied sprit, but that's not really what I'm after. I'm trying to figure out a Gloranthan  equivalent to being "Touched" or "Born with the Sight". The thought of a child being born with an already awakened fetch seems that it could fit the bill. Perhaps on occasion, rather than three elemental runes, a child is born with two elemental runes and Sprirt.

SDLeary   

 

 

Or just have the Second Sight ability, with or without an awakened Fetch.

[David Scott]

On 1/16/2020 at 5:38 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Anyway - what's the line???

The bottom line is someone in who's ear the Horned Man has whispered the secrets of the universe.

RQG box on page 353

Quote

Shamans are often awoken during childhood. The Horned Man whispers his knowledge into their sleeping ears and they are forever changed.

I think the knowledge is along the lines that you are more than yourself and have a potential to be another "shape". In theory the Horned Man could visit you at any time from conception until near death. I'd suggest most often as a child, normally after a traumatic event (look at real life shamanic awakenings for example). I'm sure it's possible for a researcher (God Learner) to meet the Horned Man and obtain the information that way. This doesn't give you an automatic fetch, just the potential that not everyone has.

Then we have the spectrum of transformation. Some will never become a shaman, their environment will stop them in some way and they will have some minor random powers. perhaps manifesting as second sight, "I see Ghosts", healing hands, any of the shaman powers really, but no real power. Some may have a fetch, but not a real one. In RQG terms perhaps with only 1 POW that is a lookout on the spirit plane (and can't increase). In the centre is "assisted" initiation - this is the version in the rules - assistant Shaman and Cult sponsored. At the other extreme, we have spontaneous initiation. At a really stressful moment (hit by lightning and near death experiences in the Real World), the Horned Man snatches you and propels you unprepared to face Bad Man - just as he did. This is the most dangerous, but likely the most rewarding.

RQG follows the middle path for all of this. As you build your fetch, you need enough POW so your training ensures that. For NPCs you could use any of the other stuff I've just mentioned. One important note is that the spirit rune is not available to shaman. This form means that you are a discorporate being, details in the upcoming Cults of Glorantha.

The major difference between a fetch and an allied spirit is that a fetch is actually you, you are dualistic. When a shaman then stores POW on the Heroplane, they then have a presence in three places. Is Argrath a shaman - maybe under the definition - He is the White Bull, like Harrek he obtained this external spirit/god and integrated it. Likely because he had the potential. He probably dreamed the Horned God at some point and the White Bull is anchored to his soul where a fetch would be. 

Shamanism is the set of techniques used to access spirits and the spirit world, so anyone who has even a glimmering of this can technically be called a shaman. Real world shaman tend to specialise in healing, divination, or psychopomping and as a result get to be called by a variety of names. Others do a mixture of work, have a look at Essie Parrish as an example, called a Dreamer and prophet. She was clearly a shaman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essie_Pinola_Parrish

http://www.sourcememory.net/womanshaman/pomodreamers.html

In many cases the shaman never calls themselves "shaman" or what ever local name for people who do this kind of work. The title is bestowed by others.

Overall there are no hard rules for becoming a shaman.

Edited January 17, 2020 by David Scott

[Shiningbrow]

@David Scott I was actually just trying to stick with RQ, and stay away from real world versions.

Your ideas on the RQ version are interesting, though, and the "can't have the Spirit Rune" sounds odd!

Are you also suggesting that God Learners couldn't awaken a Fetch? Or just saying that meeting the Horned Man wasn't sufficient?

[David Scott]

13 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I was actually just trying to stick with RQ, and stay away from real world versions.

RuneQuest is informed by real world shamanism and Glorantha always has been.

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

the "can't have the Spirit Rune" sounds odd!

Cults of Glorantha, Form runes:

Quote

Spirit: The Spirit Rune denotes disembodied entities existing in the Spirit World; since all mortals are embodied beings, they do not have the Spirit Rune (even if they might temporarily discorporate).

 

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Are you also suggesting that God Learners couldn't awaken a Fetch? Or just saying that meeting the Horned Man wasn't sufficient?

I'm suggesting that you need to be exposed to the Horned Man to awaken the potential. Perhaps a God Learner learned the secret of how to awaken the potential (from the Horned Man) in others. But the potential does not give you an automatic fetch. It's a bit like illumination once you are exposed to the potential, you might become illuminated, but there's no guarantee.

[soltakss]

My Glorantha has Always Varied.

Most cults don't like Shamans because Shamans take worshippers away from Temples and Priests.

A Shaman can always make a personal connection to a deity and organise a Spirit Cult based on the Shaman. Priests don't like that, but shamans and their followers do.

So, I would allow a Shaman to access almost any cult via shamanic worship, as described in the Spirit Cult section of the RQG Rules. They don't get access to all the spells, though, which is the disadvantage of worshipping a deity via a Spirit Cult.

[SDLeary]

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or just have the Second Sight ability, with or without an awakened Fetch.

Yes, but it wound't be quite the same. Tales often state that the Touched can talk with the spirits that they can see. 

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

Cults of Glorantha, Form runes:

Quote

Spirit: The Spirit Rune denotes disembodied entities existing in the Spirit World; since all mortals are embodied beings, they do not have the Spirit Rune (even if they might temporarily discorporate).

 

Which is a tome that is not yet available to the public, and a change compared to the main rule book, which states:

 

Quote

 

Spirit: This Rune describes disembodied entities existing in the Spirit World. (p15: Forms)

Spirit: This Rune identifies discorporate beings. (p50: Other Runes)

 

 

So, a being with the man rune and the spirit rune sounds possible. The way I presented it, the Man Rune represents the part on this side of the vale, and the Spirit, the Fetch/Spirit Guide/Allied Spirit on the other side.

Besides, if you folks (Chaosium)  can present things witch seem to us to break the rules (see thread on Sorcery in Smoking Runes), then we certainly can until said rules come out, if we find it fits our narrative!

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, I would allow a Shaman to access almost any cult via shamanic worship, as described in the Spirit Cult section of the RQG Rules. They don't get access to all the spells, though, which is the disadvantage of worshipping a deity via a Spirit Cult.

Yes! As far as spells, I might allow certain ones, but each would have to be something along the lines of a Pact between the Shaman or the Spirit Worshipper, and the deity.

SDLeary

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

RuneQuest is informed by real world shamanism and Glorantha always has been.

I am aware. Just that at some point, the "comparison" will fail... Such as here. That's why I don't want to go too deeply into real world views.