Elmal?

[Glorion]

In my house campaign, Sorala (the quickstart non-sorcerous version) has joined Elmal, whose runes are very similar to Lhankor Mhy's. We're using the unofficial version that has been posted (see below). I'm wondering how different the official version will be? Also, the unofficial version lets Elmal have small and medium elementals, thereby making it a rather stronger cult than Yelmalio. Can anyone comment who has the text GOG perhaps as to what salamanders, if any, Elmalions can summon and control?

http://www.backtobalazar.com/elmal-runequest-cult-write-up/

[Richard S.]

In GaGoG Elmal is going to be treated as a minor subcult of Yelmalio, with his only large following being in Runegate. The only differences, as far as I know, are that he doesn't provide gifts and geases and knows the Shield spell from Orlanth. He doesn't have any fire powers and cannot summon salamanders. YGMV, I know many peoples do on this subject, but this is how he's going to be presented in RQG. The other little suns, namely Antirius and Kargzant, will be treated similarly.

[Mirza]

From: Notes on the Many Suns and the Sun Gods of Prax, Page 5

On 1/9/2019 at 3:44 AM, Jeff said:

Which is also why many Elmal cultists accept that Yelmalio is a mask of Elmal and vice versa.

You all may do with Elmal as you want - as far as the official version is concerned, Elmal has the same basic Rune magic and spirit magic as Yelmalio (which shouldn't be surprising). Elmal does not have Sunspear or Fireblade or Firearrow - despite what *I* wrote in SKH (and if we ever update SKH I will definitely fix some overly broad description I included in that book). 

The biggest difference is that Yelmalio has gifts and geases and Elmal does not, and Elmal is an associate of Orlanth, while Yelmalio is an associate of Yelm (and other Sky Gods). Also Yelmalio temples train their members in Pike and Shield, and Elmal temples do not (although they may have in the past!). 

If we view Elmal as being the cult of Yelmalio restricted to those myths where Yelmalio aided Orlanth and Orlanth's people - as seen by Orlanth and his people - we can see the contours of the Elmal cult. We can also see why Monrogh's revelation was so broadly embraced (and if we look really carefully we can even see why the House of Sartar would support his revelation). For the Elmal initiate, Monrogh's revelation meant taking a gift and a geas from the Little Sun. And also getting a whole series of additional stories about your god that supplement but do not replace the first story. Your god gets a promotion, you get a cool gift, and the other Sun Dome Temples will teach you superior fighting tactics.

Those who refused to accept the "sequels" (I think of them like fans of the original Star Wars movie, who refused to embrace the broader story elements in Empire Strikes Back) had community reasons for doing so. Yelmalio is not associated with the Lightbringers, which means his temples are not going to be supported by the tribal Orlanth cult. Where Elmal is the tribal patron, that's not a problem but for tribes like the Colymar or the Cinsina, it means your temple needs to stand on its own. That's a social problem, not a mythological one.

So even though most Elmal cultists embraced Monrogh's revelations, a few rejected it. Ironically, one could argue that makes Elmal the "purist" and "reactionary" cult. 

[davecake]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

The only differences, as far as I know, are that he doesn't provide gifts and geases and knows the Shield spell from Orlanth. He doesn't have any fire powers and cannot summon salamanders.

The official Elmal cult has exactly the same access to fire as Elmal, but to my surprise, the draft of GoG removes Yelmalios access to fire elementals - so neither have many fire powers, neither can summon elementals.This does make sense, though it further removes useful magic from an already notoriously weak cult. Yelmalio Chief Priests get access to Sunspear via Yelm as an associated cult. 

The associated cults are the main other difference in magic besides the lack of gifts and geases. Elmal getting Shield from Orlanth is a big deal - one of the most useful spells for a warrior god - but Sunspear from Yelm - one of the most powerful physical attack spells - is too (though basically every Elmal initiate is going to have access to Shield, only the highest ranks of the Yelmalio cult have access to Sunspear). Elmal retains Yelmalios association with Ernalda and Aldrya. Both can be associated with Hyalor Horsebreaker, getting Command Horse, but I think this is much more common among the Elmal cultists in Dragon Pass. 

Yelmalio is also associated with Vrimak and Yelorna, and I don't think Elmal, so they lose the association with birds. 

Elmal cultists do not learn hoplite/pike fighting, though they are still spearmen, and learn Riding instead (personally, I think they get Kuschile archery 'for free', without having to take a geas). 

In my personal game, Elmal is also permitted access to Firearrow and Fireblade, mostly because I didn't want to retcon the cult too much with those abilities being very regularly used by a PC in my HQ game, with the mythic validation that Orlanth returned Elmals weapons to hm after defeating him at the Hill of Gold. Jeffs Glorantha Will Vary. 

Yelmalio and Elmal are both absolutely terrible for magic for a warrior cult. They essentially have negative weapon enhancing magic - less than if they were not members at all. And Yelmalio has very limited protective magic too. Yelmalio gets a smattering of instant weapon masters, and some enhanced attributes, but I don't think thats enough to make up for it. The cults tactics are effective enough in a group, so they compensate somewhat en masse but not much as as individual. The cult is obviously popular with players, but very much despite its weakness as an effective choice. 

[Grievous]

I can definitely see how we go from this Elmal to Yelmalio. It's a form of the god that has forgotten parts of his core myths and Monrogh re-revealed them. Now I just need to understand how we go from the earlier Elmal (as seen in Six Ages) to Yelmalio. I mean sure, Elmal is cursed to be forgotten, but we've only seen a small part of how that will play out... Even as we go forward, seemingly towards a simpler interpretation, it seems Glorantha plays its tricks on us and Elmal will continue to elude us!

[Tindalos]

The most recent version of the write up for Elmal I've seen is here, where he still has gifts and geasa, but rerolls the one about not talking to Orlanthi.

[Darius West]

I would suggest that Elmal has access to the fire based spirit spells that Yelmalio lost on the Hill of Gold.  On the other hand, he wouldn't have access to gifts and geases, and is likely to have a stasis rune in place of a truth rune.  He is a stay-at-home, defensive kind of deity.  This might be a little contradicted by his access to Kuschile Horse Archery, but that tradition can be traced back to Hyalor, and Kuschile is just a more recent heroic exponent of the tradition.  The real difference would be around associated cults.  Elmal would have Orlanth and the Thunder Brothers as associates, with maybe some Lightbringer friends as well, and wouldn't be friends with Aldrya or Yelm.  It is possible that he would be friends with Vrimak, and he would definitely be an alternative husband for Ernalda, as Elmal Thanes can claim kingship among the Orlanthi.  For this reason Elmali may have some minor claim on Orlanth Rex magic too.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I would suggest that Elmal has access to the fire based spirit spells that Yelmalio lost on the Hill of Gold.  On the other hand, he wouldn't have access to gifts and geases, and is likely to have a stasis rune in place of a truth rune.  He is a stay-at-home, defensive kind of deity.  This might be a little contradicted by his access to Kuschile Horse Archery, but that tradition can be traced back to Hyalor, and Kuschile is just a more recent heroic exponent of the tradition.  The real difference would be around associated cults.  Elmal would have Orlanth and the Thunder Brothers as associates, with maybe some Lightbringer friends as well, and wouldn't be friends with Aldrya or Yelm.  It is possible that he would be friends with Vrimak, and he would definitely be an alternative husband for Ernalda, as Elmal Thanes can claim kingship among the Orlanthi.  For this reason Elmali may have some minor claim on Orlanth Rex magic too.

Elmal lost his fire magic being repeatedly defeated, cut-up, robbed, etc., defending "the Stead" (AKA the Hill of Gold). He has no more Fire Magic than Elmal.

And actually maybe less - I keep going around and around whether Sandy was right when he removed Summon Small and Medium Fire Elemental from Yelmalio (although probably should come from Yelm).

Greg always said that Yelmalio is a comparatively weak war god, but in the Grey Age he had the great advantage of Not Being Dead. So his cult was important at the Dawn and found an important purpose in the Broken Council with his comparative advantage in fighting trolls (Catseye and Sunbright are fantastic at fighting trolls). Their gifts mean the cult has a disproportionate number of initiates with a 90% weapon skill, a disproportionate number of remarkable horsemen, etc.

Now Yelmalio isn't that good at fighting Orlanth (although Cloud Clear certainly can get rid of some of Orlanth's heavy artillery), but he doesn't need to be. He just needs to be tough enough to maintain his own autonomy. Orlanth and Yelmalio are rivals, but not bitter ones. And the cults work together as often as against each other,

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

In my personal game, Elmal is also permitted access to Firearrow and Fireblade

Why not just remove the prohibition? While the cult doesn't teach the spell, it would still allow them to get it from other sources.

[Tindalos]

I imagine there may be a rare subcult of Little Sun with access to salamanders and fire magic, only admissible to those who've defeated Zorak Zoran.

Given the ability of HeroQuests to be smaller parts of other quests, there could be other myths like "Elmal rescues Mahome from the trolls" which Monrough proved as a section of the hill of gold where questers deliberately seek a "wrong" outcome.  

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I imagine there may be a rare subcult of Little Sun with access to salamanders and fire magic, only admissible to those who've defeated Zorak Zoran.

Given the ability of HeroQuests to be smaller parts of other quests, there could be other myths like "Elmal rescues Mahome from the trolls" which Monrough proved as a section of the hill of gold where questers deliberately seek a "wrong" outcome.  

None of the Little Suns likely have this, as the Darkness stripped Lightfore of its heat (but not its light). Look at Lightfore each night - it gives light (although not as much as the Sun) but no heat. Some say that is because Zorak Zoran stole his fire, others because Storm Bull tore off his wings, others because Orlanth killed those powers, and still others say because Lightfore gave them up so that Orlanth could wield Lightning. I've heard Chaos destroyed them, Trickster ate them, and Maran Gor tore them away and cast them away.

[Tindalos]

30 minutes ago, Jeff said:

None of the Little Suns likely have this, as the Darkness stripped Lightfore of its heat (but not its light). Look at Lightfore each night - it gives light (although not as much as the Sun) but no heat. Some say that is because Zorak Zoran stole his fire, others because Storm Bull tore off his wings, others because Orlanth killed those powers, and still others say because Lightfore gave them up so that Orlanth could wield Lightning. I've heard Chaos destroyed them, Trickster ate them, and Maran Gor tore them away and cast them away.

True, but what's taken can be regained. 

Just as Orlanth took Yelmalio's lightning at the hill, and Zorak Zoran took his warmth, a quester can get those back.

If enough people do things "wrong" you can end up with a group devoted to it, and if they gain power from being "wrong" I see no reason why they wouldn't come up with a myth about it. 

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

True, but what's taken can be regained. 

Just as Orlanth took Yelmalio's lightning at the hill, and Zorak Zoran took his warmth, a quester can get those back.

If enough people do things "wrong" you can end up with a group devoted to it, and if they gain power from being "wrong" I see no reason why they wouldn't come up with a myth about it. 

That would be quite a hero quest, and a magical feat comparable to the Sun Stop. Anything is possible, but given the small size and relative unimportance of the Elmal Cult even among the Orlanthi, I have difficulty imagining why that would happen. But hey, it would be interesting to see a hero quest that united Orlanth, the Red Goddess, and Zoran Zoran!

[Jeff]

Something I am not sure people are quite getting - but if you worship "the Sun that was present in the Darkness," you are worshiping Lightfore, which was the "Little Sun" present in the Lesser Darkness and reappeared in the Grey Age. The fiery sun died at the end of the Golden Age - according to everyone - and did not return to the heavens until the Dawn. Many cultures hold that to be just an impersonal Sun Disk, but thanks to the Broken Council, most folk in Central Genertela know it as "Yelm". They are two distinct entities, although many consider Lightfore far more accessible (and thus more useful) than the distant Sun Disk.

[Tindalos]

31 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Ask Gloranthan fans about Yelmalio myths, and 99% will say "At the Hill of Gold he lost his Fire Powers".  This is memorable and important.  It's supposed to be significant.  There may be a myth where he lost his ability to blink his right eye, but nobody cares about that one.

IMO, all of you saying "just give Elmal the Fire Powers" are missing the point.  Would anybody postulate some secondary Troll Cult where they are free of the Trollkin Curse?  Of course not.  Not should Elmal be free of the "no fire powers" curse.

You mean like Moorgarki or that work Cragspider did?

IMO I can understand people who've been playing with fire using Elmali for a decade, being told he's the main sun god of the Orlanthi, and an important god might be a little frustrated at being told they're wrong for relying on the material that they had available, and the characters they've been playing based on that are wrong because what was once canon isn't. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

36 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Something I am not sure people are quite getting - but if you worship "the Sun that was present in the Darkness," you are worshiping Lightfore, which was the "Little Sun" present in the Lesser Darkness and reappeared in the Grey Age. The fiery sun died at the end of the Golden Age - according to everyone - and did not return to the heavens until the Dawn. Many cultures hold that to be just an impersonal Sun Disk, but thanks to the Broken Council, most folk in Central Genertela know it as "Yelm". They are two distinct entities, although many consider Lightfore far more accessible (and thus more useful) than the distant Sun Disk.

I mean, I get it, but for a long time it seems that Elmal was not just intended to be the Orlanthi Lightfore god, but their god of the literal sun disk as well - at least that's the impression I get when I read Greg's "The Birth of Elmal - or why I screwed up your Glorantha". GRanted, I might be reading that incorrectly - and I know that a lot of development has happened over many years since then, but the point remains that for a lot of people, the associations of Elmal does not just go to Lightfore, but the daytime Sun Disk as well.

But you almost assuredly know this, and I know this, and most people visiting this site probably know this, and I suspect we're all a bit tired of going through the motions of this debate over and over again. I respect the current direction of Chaousium. I don't really care if Elmal is retroactively losing some spells (I much more dislike Elmal's social and mythical marginalization, but that's a different issue), but I suppose others might.  

I don't think too much is going to be gained from having this discussion again.

 

[Ali the Helering]

I have to say that I don't understand why it is preferable to strip away Elmal's fire powers and make him a subcult. 

I know it is being done, but cannot see why this is supposed to make Glorantha better. 

Given the great arguments that occurred when he was differentiated from Yelmalio, what was the point then, and what now? 

[SDLeary]

19 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Given the great arguments that occurred when he was differentiated from Yelmalio, what was the point then, and what now? 

I think (and @Jeff can correct me if I'm wrong because he probably has a better take on this), in my rare talks with Greg since he left Chaosium, he seemed to go through a period where he was exploring the individual cultures deeper. As a result, his writings of the time were "revealing" more of this because richer cultures interested him more, he probably wanted to share that and it made it into the various depictions of Glorantha.

I'm not sure what swung him back in the other direction.

SDLeary  

Edited January 21, 2020 by SDLeary

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I have to say that I don't understand why it is preferable to strip away Elmal's fire powers and make him a subcult. 

Yeah, I mean Yelmalio is one of the very worst cults from a magical power standpoint, but does have geases and the pike fighting thing.

Elmal without those and not even any fire powers... what's the point, except making them a laughing-stock to people with proper gods who actually deliver? Is this supposed to be Orlanth's noble and steadfast second-in-command? Why is the Elmal cult so awful?

Edited January 21, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

 

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

I think (and @Jeff can correct me if I'm wrong because he probably has a better take on this), in my rare talks with Greg since he left Chaosium, he seemed to go through a period where he was exploring the individual cultures deeper. As a result, his writings of the time were "revealing" more of this because richer cultures interested him more, he probably wanted to share that and it made it into the various depictions of Glorantha.

I'm not sure what swung him back in the other direction.

SDLeary  

Beginning around 1992, Greg's focus was really on the First Age, not the Third Age. So he was interested in the Orlanthi under the First and Second Councils, the early Dara Happans and Pelorians, etc. He also played around with how many polytheistic religions give a separate name for each local cult of the god, hence the explosion of subcults. Interesting stuff, but it ultimately masked more than it revealed and also resulted in us missing the forest for the trees. Also Greg wasn't gaming much in Glorantha, which was a big problem (Glorantha for Greg was fundamentally a setting for games and not for academic discussion of mythology). I think we realised it hit rock bottom with the Lunar cults book and started to pull back from that with Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes. But we quickly realised we should have pulled back more - and thus HQG really moved away from that. We both concluded RQ2 - Cults of Prax - had struck a magical balance between how religions operate for practitioners and how to use mythology and cult in a gaming setting. 

Elmal was a big flashpoint on this, although Greg was always quick to point out that he never wrote up an Elmal cult and he assumed in the Hero Wars it was Yelmalio, not Elmal who was engaged. Elmal was discovered in order to understand who the Orlanthi understood as the main solar deity BEFORE they encountered the solar worshipers of Peloria. By the late First Age, Elmal the Sun had already given way to Yelm the Sun, and Elmal was left with his Lightfore horse. The Orlanthi Elmal syncretised with the Elf Yelmalio cult, Kargzant and Antirius - plus the revelations of the Broken Council to form what later became Yelmalio. By the end of the First Age, that had already pretty much played out.

But in order to get to the Broken Council, Greg first needed to understand what was there before. How these cultures looked at their deities early after the Dawn, before the great communication between Dara Happa and the Orlanthi, before the Orlanthi picked up bits from the trolls, the elves, the dwarfs, and the dragonewts. 

RQG is not set in the First Age. It is set more than 1200 years later. These cults changed with Time even if the gods did not. Harmast changed how people understood the Lightbringers, Alakoring changed how Orlanth was viewed among the gods, just as he changed how kings are viewed among priests. The God Learners revealed commonalities previously unknown and all educated people adopted the interpretatio god learner to some extent. And RQG reflects how things are in 1625, not in 1350, and definitely not in 350. It presents information so you and your players can game in the Gloranthan setting with vibrant cults. 

[Richard S.]

Honestly I just want to know how you went from presenting Elmal as a major god of the pantheon in S:KoH to replacing him nearly entirely with Yelmalio, both socially and magically.

[Tindalos]

4 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Honestly I just want to know how you went from presenting Elmal as a major god of the pantheon in S:KoH to replacing him nearly entirely with Yelmalio, both socially and magically.

And the guide as well.

Going with this post here as well, Elmal as the Orlanthi sun god is still how I'd go with it.

With more of "Yelmalio the sun of mountain people" as in CoP rather than "Yelmalio as the planet along the sunpath at night" theme. Elmal Yelmalio is probably a popular title, especially where other sun gods are popular; but given the Sun Domers and the neighbouring tribes are enemies, it could also be troublesome among the Locaem, Lismelder, and Colymar.

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

And the guide as well.

Going with this post here as well, Elmal as the Orlanthi sun god is still how I'd go with it.

With more of "Yelmalio the sun of mountain people" as in CoP rather than "Yelmalio as the planet along the sunpath at night" theme. Elmal Yelmalio is probably a popular title, especially where other sun gods are popular; but given the Sun Domers and the neighbouring tribes are enemies, it could also be troublesome among the Locaem, Lismelder, and Colymar.

Elmal appears only twice in the entire Guide. Yelmalio appears 33 times. That should give an idea of comparative importance.

[Tindalos]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Elmal appears only twice in the entire Guide. Yelmalio appears 33 times. That should give an idea of comparative importance.

Around the same as Odayla, Engizi, or Yinkin? Half as important as Maran Gor?

Sits fine with me.

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Since Elmal is an even smaller, "less important" cult, they should not be markedly better than Yelmalio.  IMO, both cults need improvement to be "competitive" for the more wargaming type players.

"Yelmalio has pike and geases, but Elmal gets Fire stuff" always seemed like a reasonable distinction to me.