Elmal?

[Akhôrahil]

14 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Sure, but the difference is in how the change was brought into the world. Gloranthans would know if XYZ was "revealed" by (solution 1) this obscure person who just showed up one day and convinced the High Prest that this was true, or by (solution 2) a 10 year long campaign  from a large faction of people who may or may not have acted in secret but, still, took 10 years to achieve this. I'm asking from world-building / adventure-writing point of view.

I would think that it’s hard to get away with a theoretical proof in Glorantha, given that magic is real. If you can’t show something that works that didn’t before, what good is your thesis?

Hard things are hard though, so doing something new and big might well take years of research and preparation. No-one wants to improvise a tough heroquest or complex ritual.

[Darius West]

On 1/28/2020 at 4:41 AM, Akhôrahil said:

And this makes things interesting. Which is why I would prefer both sides having a point or a case in Yelmalio/Elmal, as well, without an objective referee deciding who is right.

Elmal worship is getting very close to just doing it wrong.

Wrong or better?  Some people like fire deities that actually have fire powers.  Apparently others like to upgrade to being a glorified flashlight.  In any case, the point is really that the development of Elmal is very Henrdiki and distinctly different to the more northern Dara Happan cult.  One is Orlanthi, the other is Solar/Lunar.  Yelmalio is a hostile territorial interloper cult in Dragon Pass.  It has sided with the Lunars against the Orlanthi, and if Elmal isn't due for a renaissance post Argrath, then something is wrong.

[Richard S.]

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It has sided with the Lunars against the Orlanthi, and if Elmal isn't due for a renaissance post Argrath, then something is wrong.

It sided with the Lunars because they paid them, and later the Sartarites for the same reason. They're mercenaries, and don't owe allegiance to any one nation, or even other Sun Domes. I'd imagine that that was part of the draw for Elmali - instead of being subservient to the Orlanth cult, they could have their own independent state with Lightfore as the primary god.

Argrathalso fully supports the Yelmalio cult, he even helps his companion Rurik Runespear become the high priest of the Vaantar temple.

[Akhôrahil]

34 minutes ago, Darius West said:

if Elmal isn't due for a renaissance post Argrath, then something is wrong.

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you...

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yelmalio is a hostile territorial interloper cult in Dragon Pass.  It has sided with the Lunars against the Orlanthi, and if Elmal isn't due for a renaissance post Argrath

Once Rurik is installed as Count, the Vanntar regiments fight for Argrath...

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Once Rurik is installed as Count, the Vanntar regiments fight for Argrath...

Changed sides already at Aurochs Hills.

[g33k]

On 1/27/2020 at 7:27 AM, Shawn Carpenter said:

...And which spirits have the hottest dance moves?

Well, I was gonna say "Uleria..."

But then I realized that was wimping out.

 

 

It's Hon-eel.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

On 1/27/2020 at 4:27 PM, Shawn Carpenter said:

...And which spirits have the hottest dance moves?

Well, I was gonna say "Uleria..."

But then I realized that was wimping out.

 

 

It's Hon-eel.

Nah. The hottest moves - dance or otherwise - are with Oakfed or Lodril. Those moves make you melt.

[Richard S.]

On 1/27/2020 at 9:33 AM, Tindalos said:

Neither, because they're all too cool for that.

I'm starting a petition to rename Yelmalio to the Cool Sun

Edited January 29, 2020 by Richard S.

[Monty Lovering]

Fascinating discussion.

IMG, which is "quite" divergent, gods really exist but are more removed. Myths may be myths, rather than histories, and may be as accurate in 3,645 S.T. as the myths of 1AD are today in 2020.

And the gods need power to be sacrificed to them. They need LOTS of power to 'god' with, what with all the stuff they are asked to do in return for worship. The precise details of the worship - that's for the local hierarchy to determine. The POW sacrificed to a sun god in one place ends up with the same entity as the power sacrificed to a sun god with a different name and theology in another place. Yup, it gets messy sometimes with worshipers of the same entity killing each other and calling upon the same entity for magic. But the entity gets what they need out of the bargain. Power.

Illumination, God Learning, etc., is the realisation of this. Gods are just immensely powerful entities who give out to individuals for what they get from multitudes. Mortal beings can become gods. 

A god is not up in the business of each worshiper. If a bunch of powerful worshipers grass up a co-worshiper, then the god will go with the majority (or the magic that has been sacrificed for), but it's not like Yelmalio know when someone breaks a geas unless someone tells him, and if they're not as big a deal as the one breaking the geas then it's not likely to result in action.

So Elmal and Yelmalio are the same entity.

In my Dragon Pass, with the Orlanthi pantheon resurgent after 1625, it is going to get pretty uncomfortable for Yelmalions as they will increasingly be seen as apostates of the true Elmal. The actual entity doesn't care. The power it gets is just as good from a Yelmalion as from an Elmalion. It's just humans being beastly to each other in the name of a god, which is historically supported.

[Crel]

16 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I'm starting a petition to rename Yelmalio to the Cool Sun

At this stage, I'm starting to wonder if Elmal is actually just a misnomer for Eurmal the Bright.

[Godweyn]

5 hours ago, Crel said:

At this stage, I'm starting to wonder if Elmal is actually just a misnomer for Eurmal the Bright.

Completly out of the matter, and with a few connections, i theorized that, in his time, the creation of Nysalor was an intent of bringing to the world the bright son, aka Yelmalio,but something went very wrong, bringing only the body with an aspect of Eurmal for personality, then the chaos began !

Good old times

Edited January 30, 2020 by Godweyn

[Richard S.]

5 hours ago, Crel said:

At this stage, I'm starting to wonder if Elmal is actually just a misnomer for Eurmal the Bright.

Of course, everyone's Eurmal and their religions are just a giant cosmic prank!

[davecake]

On 1/22/2020 at 1:24 AM, Tindalos said:

IMO I can understand people who've been playing with fire using Elmali for a decade, being told he's the main sun god of the Orlanthi, and an important god might be a little frustrated at being told they're wrong for relying on the material that they had available, and the characters they've been playing based on that are wrong because what was once canon isn't. 

Exactly. IMG Elmal has access to FireArrow and Fireblade because its established canon that he does - there are established PCs in current games who fight using those spells (or the exact HQ equivalent) because I used the current canon materials at the time and I don't like to have Glorantha change underneath
my PCs, especially when its for a reason that doesn't make much sense to me. Elmal is a significant cult in some clans because it's established as a significant cult in the Red Cow campaign which is still a current game for my group, and I want my players to think my various games in the 1615-1630 time line are set in the same Glorantha, not different alternate Gloranthas. 

On 1/22/2020 at 4:57 AM, Jeff said:

RQG is not set in the First Age. It is set more than 1200 years later.

Tarkalor and Monroghs time is the 1570s, less than 60 years ago, in living memory. Yelmalio is certainly more significant than Elmal at the kingdom level - but neither Sun Dome County or the Yelmalio forces around Alda Chur, while significant, are going to hold a strong appeal to traditional clansmen. I can accept Yelmalio worshippers now outnumber Elmal worshippers, but not that Elmal is more or less gone. Rather, there is still a very interesting tension between Elmal as a version that fits into Orlanthi clan life well (individualist, relies on a minority horse riding and rearing tradition for providing value to the clan) and Yelmalio as a version that represents a change to different, more Northern, values (more collectivist, relies on group training and coordination such as phalanx fighting, socially innovative challenge to traditional Orlanthi values). In a major social change that recent, there should be people still believing in both - people alive who remember the controversy. And thats great. 

On 1/21/2020 at 10:52 PM, Jeff said:

And actually maybe less - I keep going around and around whether Sandy was right when he removed Summon Small and Medium Fire Elemental from Yelmalio (although probably should come from Yelm).

Greg always said that Yelmalio is a comparatively weak war god, but in the Grey Age he had the great advantage of Not Being Dead.

That would make Yelmalio a war god with literally no good combat magic at all available to the majority of worshippers. Sunbright is the only combat spell, and while it's handy for troll fighting, it is pretty weak against almost everyone else

Honestly, Yelmalio really needs something not to be just laughably weak as a warrior cult. Better geases, a better associated cult or two? Hastatus maybe so they at least get Truespear?

The 90% ability from Gifts is interesting, but not that dramatic in RQG when warriors might start with an ability that high, or nearly so, anyway. 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

 Elmal is a significant cult in some clans because it's established as a significant cult in the Red Cow campaign

Speaking of clan level light worshipers, I don't think that you will find many (if any) rural Yelmalians among the Quivini tribes. That's different in the Tarshite-speaking tribes of Far Point.

If you find a sun worshiper or horse worshiper in rural Sartar, chances are high that "Elmal" still is the name of that deity in the rites. Most Elmali who listened to Monrogh's call packed up and went to Vanntar. The cities will have mercenary hiring halls, and I don't think there were many (if any) Elmali mercenary bands. The role and curse of Elmal is that he is the REMF, the stay-at-home warrior and defender. For a cult that revels in displays of expensive gold, the Elmali have rather few opportunities to gain some as plunder in their traditional role guarding the stead, other than generous scraps from the chief.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I want my players to think my various games in the 1615-1630 time line are set in the same Glorantha, not different alternate Gloranthas. 

Unless you are reusing the same stockade and NPCs, changing the locality can be used to bring in the alternative (new canon) roles of Elmal and Y-io in the country.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Tarkalor and Monroghs time is the 1570s, less than 60 years ago, in living memory. Yelmalio is certainly more significant than Elmal at the kingdom level - but neither Sun Dome County or the Yelmalio forces around Alda Chur, while significant, are going to hold a strong appeal to traditional clansmen. I can accept Yelmalio worshippers now outnumber Elmal worshippers, but not that Elmal is more or less gone. Rather, there is still a very interesting tension between Elmal as a version that fits into Orlanthi clan life well (individualist, relies on a minority horse riding and rearing tradition for providing value to the clan) and Yelmalio as a version that represents a change to different, more Northern, values (more collectivist, relies on group training and coordination such as phalanx fighting, socially innovative challenge to traditional Orlanthi values). In a major social change that recent, there should be people still believing in both - people alive who remember the controversy. And thats great. 

The northern clans have a role for the more individualist Yelmalian clansmen, too. The Far Point horse-breeders are fairly likely to go for Yelmalio rather than Orlanth, and fairly unlikely to go for Elmal.

Horse-breeding is an occupation for rather high-ranking households, IMO, as is horse-breaking and training for cavalry or even war horse uses.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

That would make Yelmalio a war god with literally no good combat magic at all available to the majority of worshippers. Sunbright is the only combat spell, and while it's handy for troll fighting, it is pretty weak against almost everyone else

The Yelmalian gifts are pretty much a mixed blessing, too. But then there are some common divine spells which the Yelmalians might rely on more - protecting a formation with Wardings, for instance.

While holding the line, Warding is a rather cheap long-duration Shield (minus the armor increase) for a formation.

 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Honestly, Yelmalio really needs something not to be just laughably weak as a warrior cult. Better geases, a better associated cult or two? Hastatus maybe so they at least get Truespear?

Mandatory weapon drill (training) as temple service. Spend time being religious and increase a skill. The templars are famous for their superior discipline, which is reliant on their skills in order to perform more than just well as a formation.

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Yelmalian gifts are pretty much a mixed blessing, too. But then there are some common divine spells which the Yelmalians might rely on more - protecting a formation with Wardings, for instance.

While holding the line, Warding is a rather cheap long-duration Shield (minus the armor increase) for a formation.

Since they have very little actually useful magic of their own, I would expect that Rune Points are predominantly spent on Dispels (particularly in synchronized formation casting), trying to at least level the field a bit and not just get overwhelmed by enemy magics.

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, davecake said:

Exactly. IMG Elmal has access to FireArrow and Fireblade because its established canon that he does - there are established PCs in current games who fight using those spells (or the exact HQ equivalent) because I used the current canon materials at the time and I don't like to have Glorantha change underneath
my PCs, especially when its for a reason that doesn't make much sense to me.

You don't need to.

You'd only need to remove the prohibition. They could have still gotten Firearrow and Fireblade from someone standing outside the temple, knowing it's not taught there, but is extremely effective! 

[davecake]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Speaking of clan level light worshipers, I don't think that you will find many (if any) rural Yelmalians among the Quivini tribes. That's different in the Tarshite-speaking tribes of Far Point.

Yelmalio really needs to be an established large group to be effective and survive. Their big thing is fighting in a well trained professional collective. As a minority living among Orlanthi, Yelmalio doesn't work very well (and Elmal does). 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you find a sun worshiper or horse worshiper in rural Sartar, chances are high that "Elmal" still is the name of that deity in the rites. Most Elmali who listened to Monrogh's call packed up and went to Vanntar. The cities will have mercenary hiring halls, and I don't think there were many (if any) Elmali mercenary bands. The role and curse of Elmal is that he is the REMF, the stay-at-home warrior and defender.

Sure, but active war is rare. Elmal can go on raids like anyone else. Most of the time, their role is that of boundary rider and rapid response probably, as mounted specialists. Elmal warriors aren't just another kind of warrior - they probably come from families/clans specialising in horse breeding and riding. 

And yes, the Elmal clans left are going to be maintainers of conservative Elmal rites rather than Yelmalio precisely because of the success of Monrogh - those who embraced the new way left and tromped half way across Sartar to Vanntar. The Elmal clans are a rump remainder, but they will be holding on to their beefs from that schism. 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unless you are reusing the same stockade and NPCs, changing the locality can be used to bring in the alternative (new canon) roles of Elmal and Y-io in the country.

I'm not planning to at any point change the nature of the Elmal clans - they'll just be something that doesn't matter much once you move out of a few conservative areas. They matter among the Dinacoli, around RuneGate - but the Yelmalio presence around Alda-Chur and Vanntar is far more important in the scheme of things. 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The northern clans have a role for the more individualist Yelmalian clansmen, too.

Well, of course, it just probably isn't a warrior role a lot of the time. Though light cavalry probably have a bit more leeway for individual deeds, often being used as boundary riders or messengers etc. And mounted archery is nowhere near as reliant on the support of a mass of colleagues. Their role in actual war is largely to defend the flanks of the phalanx though. 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Far Point horse-breeders are fairly likely to go for Yelmalio rather than Orlanth, and fairly unlikely to go for Elmal.

I think of it less individual choice, and more collective. The Elmali among the Vantaros converted as an entire tribe. If for some reason a Yelmalion individual finds themselves a long way from home and those around then are Elmal, they will go along with it reluctantly, but most of the time they are simply in a Yelmalion community. 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Horse-breeding is an occupation for rather high-ranking households, IMO, as is horse-breaking and training for cavalry or even war horse uses.

An interesting question is how much the Vanntar and Far Point Yelmalions embrace the Hyalor Horsebreaker and Redalda cults. It's practically endemic amongst the Elmali - their identity is as much about horses as about Light. And it's big in the provinces to the north of Tarsh, where the homeland of the Sun Dome temples corresponds closely to the area where Redalda is acknowledged as the goddess of sovereignty. But do the Vanntar and Far Point/Vantaros Yelmalions? I'm guessing so, but we don't hear much about cavalry among them. It may be that they balked a bit at a tradition of female sovereignty? The groups that can't muster a significant amount of light cavalry are going to have to supplement their phalangite phalanxs with peltasts and archers/psiloi instead to defend against flanking - this seems to be the main route taken by the Vanntar regiments. 

11 hours ago, davecake said:

That would make Yelmalio a war god with literally no good combat magic at all available to the majority of worshippers. Sunbright is the only combat spell, and while it's handy for troll fighting, it is pretty weak against almost everyone else

I retract this a little, noting that Jeff is similarly considering granting Yelmalio Shield via Yelm, which would at least give them them the one useful bit of defensive magic almost every warrior cult has. Which would take them from laughably weak magic to only notably weak. 

Their magic really is still pretty terrible though - they don't even get decent combat spirit magic, apart from Lightwall which is of limited application (though still great for troll fighting). 

Also, they take their most experienced magicians and wall them inside towers to go blind. Seems to just rub it in. 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Mandatory weapon drill (training) as temple service. Spend time being religious and increase a skill. The templars are famous for their superior discipline, which is reliant on their skills in order to perform more than just well as a formation.

Yes, as a collective, Yelmalio has advantages. They organise themselves as a society to have professional soldiers who train regularly and have the discipline and training for proper phalanxes, and can organise the rest of society with them. And as a military unit do not underestimate the advantages of not just good discipline, but great reconnaissance (all those vrok hawk familiars plus permanent Farsee all over the place), a good structured force (they don't just have phalanxes, but other forces trained to fight alongside them and compensate for their weaknesses), and a society with a lot of military leaders with strong authority to organise good logistics etc - all mostly absent from Sartarite armies organised as clan warriors. And, of course, for Vanntar the moral flexibility to make themselves a warrior supremacist society supported by a permanent slave/helot population - worked for the Spartans. 

But still, its Glorantha - magic counts. And Yelmalio must be absolutely totally outclassed, for example, by Heartland phalanxes that not only also are professional soldiers, but have plenty of great magic (via Polaris, mostly) that very effectively directly supports their phalanx fighting (and archery, and cavalry). The Pentan Kargzant(Lightfore) cavalry also are greatly enhanced by worshipping Polaris alongside Kargzant. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by davecake

[davecake]

48 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

You'd only need to remove the prohibition. They could have still gotten Firearrow and Fireblade from someone standing outside the temple, knowing it's not taught there, but is extremely effective! 

As the mythic justification for allowing Elmal to use Firearrow and Fireblade would be that Orlanth took his weapons and armour in a duel, but granted them back in later friendship, it may be that Elmal can regain their use only by ritually swearing friendship to Orlanth and then being taught it from an Orlanth temple (Orlanth doesn't emphasise the weapons of other elements, but takes great pride in having the ability to access and use them at need). Which would make it relatively available, but make for interesting roleplaying (and, if necessary, restrict it to only some Elmali). It suits my needs for maintaining continuity, my main Elmal PC is a weaponthane of the Red Cow so has sworn loyalty to an Orlanthi chief (originally from the Dolutha, joined the Red Cow by marriage, choosing to join his wifes clan, rather than her join his as usual, as a way to honorably way to leave the Dolutha, as he did not get on with Ivar Quickstep). Could be a nice compromise between Jeffs vision for Elmal and my desire for backwards compatibility. 

[davecake]

On 1/29/2020 at 4:10 AM, Darius West said:

Yelmalio is a hostile territorial interloper cult in Dragon Pass.  It has sided with the Lunars against the Orlanthi, and if Elmal isn't due for a renaissance post Argrath, then something is wrong.

The Yelmalio cult seems to make quite a bit of effort to remain neutral mercenaries for hire in Vanntar. And so as soon as the Lunars are not around so much, that makes them very useful to the Sartarite leadership - they are in a dire need of professional military, and here is some right as hand and all they need is cash. They've always been handy enough to the House of Sartar that way. Unless they end up on the wrong end of a major battle and are militarily wiped out, I can't see them having too many problems. 

Around Far Point, it seems to be a bit of a different story, the Vantaros don't seem to have fought for anyone except Harvar Ironfist (and may much. The Vantaros tribe is facing a difficult political situation (but historically has a good reputation as troll fighters). I can see plenty of other tribes around the region trying to make life difficult for the Vantaros, which could easily see a bit of a resurgence for the Elmal clans in the region as they try to steal back privileges granted to the Vantaros. 

Of course, the Yelmalio cult in Tarsh is large and strong and has sided with the Lunars, but that doesn't necessarily tell you which side they will take in the upcoming civil war given the leadership of both sides is Lunarised. I can't see them then having any interest in Elmal though.

[davecake]

The secret history, or not so secret to anyone with any history, is that Yelmalio has a long history of being tied up with mysticism, and then repudiating it when it becomes less popular (at least publicly).

In the First Age they fought for Nysalor, and became the mystic sun cult Daysenarus. In the Second Age they fought against the EWF until they switched sides and fought for it, and adopted some draconic mysticism (then got screwed over by the Dragonkill like everyone). Its one of the reasons their magic is so weak - they, like many mystics, found 'austerities' the best source of magic (Gifts and Geases) and concentrated on it, and then found that they were not as good once you don't have mysticism to support their use (ie in crude rules terms, you can no longer get away with breaking your geases at need and stacking up masses of Gifts). These secrets are hidden in secret cult documents and hidden cult lineages. 

Argrath wants the Vanntar temple partly for the practical reason that it gets him sorely lacking trained professional regiments. But also he knows that the cult is ripe for Illumination and being drawn into his emerging draconic wisdom magical coalition, and thus a potential source of Illuminated magicians and heroes, which he is going to need to take on the Empire magically. And he can exploit their historical tolerance for Illumination (compared to Sartarites or Praxians) by installing his Illuminated companion Rurik as leader, and spreading Illumination amongst their leadership. He attempts this first by backing Belvani for leadership of Sun County in Prax. But Vanntar is his second time around and he is a lot smoother. 

Which makes the Yelmalions of Vanntar potentially very interesting in the Hero Wars with an Illuminated elite eventually attempting to reorganise their religious practices to further Argraths mysterious agenda... 

An undercurrent to what is going on with Vanntar. Or maybe just a conspiracy theory, that just provides unprovable claims about what can easily be explained by more mundane politics.... 

 

[Glorion]

On 1/22/2020 at 8:19 PM, Shiningbrow said:

@Akhôrahil why limit your PCs to just 1 cult? Sure, for starting characters you might, but if you're looking for a longer campaign, I'd mention that they can join associated cults. 

Looking from that perspective, Yelmalio gets Yelm, Elmal gets Orlanth (+). Humakt perhaps gets nobody!

Well, if you don't mind double tithing at Sacred Time. And if your GM is on the ball, you should.

[Joerg]

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yelmalio really needs to be an established large group to be effective and survive. Their big thing is fighting in a well trained professional collective. As a minority living among Orlanthi, Yelmalio doesn't work very well (and Elmal does). 

Rural Yelmalio can work just like Elmal, with a lot less emphasis on the hoplite thing. The mounted skirmishes of the Dragon Pass board game like the Bush Children (refugees from the formerly Tarshite Bush Range) are probably using Kuschile archery.

 

Yelmalio/Lightfore/Golden Bow is one of the biggest cults among the beast riders, strong in the Impala and Zebra riders.

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

I'm not planning to at any point change the nature of the Elmal clans - they'll just be something that doesn't matter much once you move out of a few conservative areas. They matter among the Dinacoli, around RuneGate - but the Yelmalio presence around Alda-Chur and Vanntar is far more important in the scheme of things. 

I fear that among the Dinacoli the Elmali have been uncanonical for at least the past quarter century. The Dinacoli are of Tarshite descent, and when asked Greg said around 1995 that they worshiped Yelmalio, not Elmal. As that was the period of the "great Elmal debate" back then, there was hardly any time when the Dinacoli could have had Elmal without contradicting Greg (or adopting a Quivini clan into their Tarshite-descended tribe).

The Dinacoli would have established a Yelmalio shrine in Jonstown during their membership. And likely in Boldhome, too.

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

Well, of course, it just probably isn't a warrior role a lot of the time. Though light cavalry probably have a bit more leeway for individual deeds, often being used as boundary riders or messengers etc. And mounted archery is nowhere near as reliant on the support of a mass of colleagues. Their role in actual war is largely to defend the flanks of the phalanx though. 

A single Parthian shot doesn't do much to halt pursuers, but a massed Parthian shot will hinder advancing slower troops significantly. I used the Bush Children routinely to delay Lunar advance with their superior speed allowing them to retreat after rolling the dice for skirmishing in the Dragon Pass game.

 

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

I think of it less individual choice, and more collective. The Elmali among the Vantaros converted as an entire tribe. If for some reason a Yelmalion individual finds themselves a long way from home and those around then are Elmal, they will go along with it reluctantly, but most of the time they are simply in a Yelmalion community. 

The Vantaros converted a long time ago, still north of the Death Line, without Monrogh even being prophecied yet. The WF15 mentions of Elmal among the Far Point tribes are in error, as far as I am concerned.

The question to me is whether the suppression of traditionalist (non-draconic) cults in the EWF spelled the end for the Elmal cult among the Pelorian Orlanthi. The common cause against the troll taxmen in Saird may have helped.

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

An interesting question is how much the Vanntar and Far Point Yelmalions embrace the Hyalor Horsebreaker and Redalda cults. It's practically endemic amongst the Elmali - their identity is as much about horses as about Light. And it's big in the provinces to the north of Tarsh, where the homeland of the Sun Dome temples corresponds closely to the area where Redalda is acknowledged as the goddess of sovereignty. But do the Vanntar and Far Point/Vantaros Yelmalions? I'm guessing so, but we don't hear much about cavalry among them.

The Dragon Pass rules mention horse archers for Sun County despite there being no such units in the game. On the whole, these riders may be integral part of the Templar doctrine, with Impala or zebra riders having replaced the horse archers in Prax.

There are significant areas of flat terrain around Alda-chur, and that's where the Yelmalians reside. Grazer territory is at least as hilly.

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

Their magic really is still pretty terrible though - they don't even get decent combat spirit magic, apart from Lightwall which is of limited application (though still great for troll fighting).

Are their pike-heads bladed, or do they have points similar to bodkin arrows? The latter may explain the absence of bladesharp. Disruption isn't much of a combat magic except to distract and slightly weaken powerful opponents.

But then, rather than providing better individual combat magic, I would like to see combat magic that affects entire files or regiments. The Tarshite-speaking Sun Domers may have such old magic.

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

But still, its Glorantha - magic counts. And Yelmalio must be absolutely totally outclassed, for example, by Heartland phalanxes that not only also are professional soldiers, but have plenty of great magic (via Polaris, mostly) that very effectively directly supports their phalanx fighting. 

The Stonewall phalanxes come with a lot of traditions, quite a few of which may be detrimental in "modern" warfare. They also come with much shorter pikes.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Rural Yelmalio can work just like Elmal, with a lot less emphasis on the hoplite thing.

Once you take away the hoplite thing, they aren't much of a thing. Which is why I want to beef up Elmal just a little. But you also miss out on a lot of good magic - you aren't going to get that useful associated cult magic from Yelm if you live amongst a bunch of Orlanthi. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Yelmalio/Lightfore/Golden Bow is one of the biggest cults among the beast riders, strong in the Impala and Zebra riders.

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Well, it makes a bit more sense if you are a pygmy who wants to avoid physical combat with anyone bigger than you. Then you don't really care that you have poor melee combat options. 

Presuming the entire Impala nation just ignores the explicit cult rules to 'ride no animal but a horse' rule, of course. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I fear that among the Dinacoli the Elmali have been uncanonical for at least the past quarter century.

My error. I was thinking of the Dolutha, who of course are Cinsina. I don't think the Dinacoli seem to have a lot of Yelmalio worshippers though. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Vantaros converted a long time ago, still north of the Death Line, without Monrogh even being prophecied yet. The WF15 mentions of Elmal among the Far Point tribes are in error, as far as I am concerned.

Well, declaring any reference you don't like to be in error is one way to argue, I guess. Do you have a source for your viewpoint? 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Dragon Pass rules mention horse archers for Sun County despite there being no such units in the game. On the whole, these riders may be integral part of the Templar doctrine, with Impala or zebra riders having replaced the horse archers in Prax.

I think Yelmalian doctrine has adapted to local conditions, and has included peltasts, massed archers, etc. Indications are that while the Vaantar Templars have some light cavalry, it isn't in significant numbers. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are their pike-heads bladed, or do they have points similar to bodkin arrows? The latter may explain the absence of bladesharp. Disruption isn't much of a combat magic except to distract and slightly weaken powerful opponents.

The cult teaches neither spell - while they could pick it up for full price, you have to assume its rare. Same with Protection, Countermagic, Speedart, Multimissile, Befuddle - almost everything useful, really. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

But then, rather than providing better individual combat magic, I would like to see combat magic that affects entire files or regiments. The Tarshite-speaking Sun Domers may have such old magic.

While you could imagine they have such effects, there is no evidence that they do. Unlike, say, Polaris or Humakt, who have Morale and more. 

Of course, they have regimental wyters in their standards, but thats just unremarkable magic defences that most people have access to. 

(and Sunbright and Lightwall work pretty well in tight groups like a phalanx, so they are set for fighting Darkness creatures)

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Stonewall phalanxes come with a lot of traditions, quite a few of which may be detrimental in "modern" warfare.

We are discussing Yelmalio here, which excels in pointless traditions that get in the way. For example they won't teach you sword, at all, even though a shortsword is normally the side arm of a phalangite. Not for Yelmalio though, its giant sarissa and if they get inside your guard you... no idea, actually. Whatever inconvenient traditions the Stonewall phalanxes, the Templars seem to have more. 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by davecake

[Grievous]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

 

My error. I was thinking of the Dolutha, who of course are Cinsina. I don't think the Dinacoli seem to have a lot of Yelmalio worshippers though. 
 

Except that the clan history has them coming from the north as well, over the Creek. So they're still an issue that sticks out.

"The Dolutha descend from the Ferfal Alliance: a triaty of horse-riding clans from Saird to the north of Dragon Pass who drove the Grazer clans from the grasslands along the Creek."
- Coming Storm 

Now they could be a northern group that has done a heroquested Elmalian Resurgence into olden Six Ages times from being Yelmalio worshippers in the north (which would also be a reason why they were hostile to the Yelmalian Dinacoli who drove them south)... but I mean, the whole Elmal-Yelmalion complexity is closing in on singularity here.. Alternatively you can just search and replace Elmal into Yelmalio in Coming Storm to reach some canon parity.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Grievous