Elmal?

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

He is however an excellent soldier cult (and has been described as such since Cults of Prax) that does wicked phalanxes.  That a hoplite does not do well fighting by himself makes Yelmalio an inferior cult for PCs but it does not make him a useless cult for gloranthans.  After all a hoplite fighting in a phalanx will have a longer life expectancy than most PCs.

As Yelmalions say, "Humakt makes warriors, Yelmalio makes soldiers." They stand and fight, not because they wield the power of the god (who was stripped of his powers by his foes), but because they will themselves as fragile mortals to do so. Yelmalio is worshiped not because of his incredible power (in the end, he is just the Light in the Darkness or the cold Mountain Sun) but because he did not give up in the Greater Darkness. He kept fighting for us mortals even though he had been robbed, wounded, and weakened. When you fight in the line, you too must keep in place and formation - not because you are a god, but because you are a mortal and now fight for Yelmalio as he did for your ancestors.

 

[AndreJarosch]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

As Yelmalions say, "Humakt makes warriors, Yelmalio makes soldiers." They stand and fight, not because they wield the power of the god (who was stripped of his powers by his foes), but because they will themselves as fragile mortals to do so. Yelmalio is worshiped not because of his incredible power (in the end, he is just the Light in the Darkness or the cold Mountain Sun) but because he did not give up in the Greater Darkness. He kept fighting for us mortals even though he had been robbed, wounded, and weakened. When you fight in the line, you too must keep in place and formation - not because you are a god, but because you are a mortal and now fight for Yelmalio as he did for your ancestors.

 

Storm Bulls are like Hulk: Fighting with wild brute force. 
Humakti are (like Orlanthi) like Thor: Fighing as the personifications of divine power. 
Yelmalios are like Captain America: Fighting because they stand their ground and fight for their cause (and are teamplayers). 
 

[French Desperate WindChild]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

As Yelmalions say, "Humakt makes warriors, Yelmalio makes soldiers." They stand and fight, not because they wield the power of the god (who was stripped of his powers by his foes), but because they will themselves as fragile mortals to do so. Yelmalio is worshiped not because of his incredible power (in the end, he is just the Light in the Darkness or the cold Mountain Sun) but because he did not give up in the Greater Darkness. He kept fighting for us mortals even though he had been robbed, wounded, and weakened. When you fight in the line, you too must keep in place and formation - not because you are a god, but because you are a mortal and now fight for Yelmalio as he did for your ancestors.

 

I like this (well I would dislike to live in a sundome but i would dislike to live in any gloranthan society I think)

Morality : Yelmalio may not be for munchkin ("gros bill" in french, don't know why) but is very interesting for any drama (like probably all other gods, story and climax depend on the player good will, not the god power)

self sacrifice, solidarity, rigor, discipline, sexism, xenophobia, that is so beautifull !

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

self sacrifice, solidarity, rigor, discipline, sexism, xenophobia, that is so beautifull !

yay let's all play protestants

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

yay let's all play protestants

"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy."
—H. L. Mencken

Puritans or maybe mormons are obvious comparison to Yelmalians. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, Tindalos said:

The answer given in Cults of Prax (which I'm pretty sure was before Lightfore had been revealed to most folk) was that to mountain dwelling people like the Orlanthi, the sun was a source of light but not heat; and Yelmalio was only not associated with the sun in lowland places (like Peloria) where the sky itself was seen as the source of light.

To make it worse, Lightfore is sometimes the son of Pole Star (as seen in the Gloranthan Sourcebook), so you know, even more fun there.

Perhaps my version of Glorantha is different, but I thought most people would think that "the sun" was comparable to our sun - giving off both light and heat.

I confess it's possible that it only gives off light. Or perhaps the Orlanthi live in a region where the sun, even at it's hottest, is barely lukewarm. (Which then makes the myth of Elmal & Heler vying for the hand of Esrola worse, because Elmal couldn't heat up an ice cube).

If, however, the sun in Sartar does actually give off heat, and does help the crops grow, Orlanthi would be stupid not to acknowledge that in their pantheon... Stupid, because the relevant God would take away said warmth as punishment.

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

As Yelmalions say, "Humakt makes warriors, Yelmalio makes soldiers." They stand and fight, not because they wield the power of the god (who was stripped of his powers by his foes), but because they will themselves as fragile mortals to do so. Yelmalio is worshiped not because of his incredible power (in the end, he is just the Light in the Darkness or the cold Mountain Sun) but because he did not give up in the Greater Darkness. He kept fighting for us mortals even though he had been robbed, wounded, and weakened. When you fight in the line, you too must keep in place and formation - not because you are a god, but because you are a mortal and now fight for Yelmalio as he did for your ancestors.

That's the type of comparative description that would be very welcome in CoG/GaGoG or in the Gamemaster Guide. The "Nature of the Cult" section of the Cults of Prax write-up format is good at describing the cult, but is often not enough to compare similar cults together in order to pick one. A whole chapter on "Choosing your Cult" with comparisons including both gameplay and roleplaying considerations would be super useful IMHO.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps my version of Glorantha is different, but I thought most people would think that "the sun" was comparable to our sun - giving off both light and heat.

I confess it's possible that it only gives off light. Or perhaps the Orlanthi live in a region where the sun, even at it's hottest, is barely lukewarm. (Which then makes the myth of Elmal & Heler vying for the hand of Esrola worse, because Elmal couldn't heat up an ice cube).

If, however, the sun in Sartar does actually give off heat, and does help the crops grow, Orlanthi would be stupid not to acknowledge that in their pantheon... Stupid, because the relevant God would take away said warmth as punishment.

I still think Elmal should be a variant of the Sun-as-Horse. The Riders brought Elmal south and His worship was assimilated. The Thane of Orlanth isn't the great lord Yelm, but He still keeps the stead warm and safe.

I don't know about spells, but I'd focus on his role as supporter. Maybe he should have the fiery bow spell? YGWV

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

That's the type of comparative description that would be very welcome in CoG/GaGoG or in the Gamemaster Guide. The "Nature of the Cult" section of the Cults of Prax write-up format is good at describing the cult, but is often not enough to compare similar cults together in order to pick one. A whole chapter on "Choosing your Cult" with comparisons including both gameplay and roleplaying considerations would be super useful IMHO.

And also to support this with rules - for instance, if the point is that it's all heart and discipline that makes the phalanx work without any even half-decent magic, perhaps work that in as a Passion? If every Yelmalian Hoplite can be expected to have a "Hold the Line" (or something) passion at sky-high (ahem) levels and gets provided with it from cult bonuses, that helps explain how things are supposed to hold together.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

Just now, lordabdul said:

That's the type of comparative description that would be very welcome in CoG/GaGoG or in the Gamemaster Guide. The "Nature of the Cult" section of the Cults of Prax write-up format is good at describing the cult, but is often not enough to compare similar cults together in order to pick one. A whole chapter on "Choosing your Cult" with comparisons including both gameplay and roleplaying considerations would be super useful IMHO.

I would prefer (but your proposal is a progress, for sure) a description of cultural block, and roles of each people / values / organization then why not comparison.

I discovered here (after more than 20 years of glorantha lay membership) that Lunars follow both yelm and red moon pantheons. From my previous understanding that the relationship between seven mothers and solars was a little bit like Yelm cultists and Lodrili cultist : Shut up ! I am the boss and you don't exist except to serve

[Shiningbrow]

3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I still think Elmal should be a variant of the Sun-as-Horse. The Riders brought Elmal south and His worship was assimilated. The Thane of Orlanth isn't the great lord Yelm, but He still keeps the stead warm and safe.

I don't know about spells, but I'd focus on his role as supporter. Maybe he should have the fiery bow spell? YGWV

Well, Elmal is most strongly worshipped by Hyalorings, so yeah, that makes sense.

But, as I've said, I still don't know who "the sun" is.... 

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, as I've said, I still don't know who "the sun" is.... 

So at least according to HeroQuest Voices, that bright thing you see in the sky is Elmal (if you're a Heortling).

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

So at least according to HeroQuest Voices, that bright thing you see in the sky is Elmal (if you're a Heortling).

If so, then Elmal clearly hasn't lost fire/heat... (Unless it's colder in the day than at night).

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If so, then Elmal clearly hasn't lost fire/heat... 

This is my thinking as well.

Yelmalio is the the light of the sky dome at night and/or the planet Lightfore, so it makes sense that he doesn't have heat.

Elmal is the sun. You know what happens when he's not in the sky? It gets darker and colder. 

[SDLeary]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio is worshiped not because of his incredible power (in the end, he is just the Light in the Darkness or the cold Mountain Sun) but because he did not give up in the Greater Darkness. He kept fighting for us mortals even though he had been robbed, wounded, and weakened. When you fight in the line, you too must keep in place and formation - not because you are a god, but because you are a mortal and now fight for Yelmalio as he did for your ancestors.

Whats being said though Jeff, is that the Cult, as written (at least as far as we know right now), DOESN'T support that Mythic outline that you just provided, whereas other cults DO tend to support their gods Mythic outline, with appropriate spells and abilities. For example, there is no Steadfast feat listed as a gift, no Enduring (bonus to con rolls, or perhaps a re-roll?) feat. (Note: looking at the PDF of  Cult Compendium; all that I've got with me right now)

SDLeary

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

If, however, the sun in Sartar does actually give off heat, and does help the crops grow, Orlanthi would be stupid not to acknowledge that in their pantheon... Stupid, because the relevant God would take away said warmth as punishment.

And more stupid to acknowledge that its a foreign enemy God-Emperor that helps to put food on their table.

SDLeary

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

And more stupid to acknowledge that its a foreign enemy God-Emperor that helps to put food on their table.

Before Elmal (like in Gods of Glorantha), I believe that the Orlanthi view was that Yelm was in chains, doing his job, but that he was neither deserving of worship nor that any worship was necessary for the sun to work.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I still think Elmal should be a variant of the Sun-as-Horse. The Riders brought Elmal south and His worship was assimilated. The Thane of Orlanth isn't the great lord Yelm, but He still keeps the stead warm and safe.

I think that in my Glorantha, he still has fire. Even a camp fire or bon-fire can keep people warm, and keep predators away in the darkness.

Quote

I don't know about spells, but I'd focus on his role as supporter. Maybe he should have the fiery bow spell? YGWV

Hmmmm... how about...

• Barricade -- Like Shield, but applied to hastily erected defensive barriers, fortified gates, etc. 
• True Arrow -- as a defender, much more likely to use bows from battlements or towers, shield walls, etc.

SDLeary

Edited January 22, 2020 by SDLeary

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

If so, then Elmal clearly hasn't lost fire/heat... (Unless it's colder in the day than at night).

When we rerelease HQ Voices, we will use the original language written by Greg, as opposed to the revisions made by others. 

Greg's text read:

Yelm ruled a world that was stale and changeless.

Orlanth, his enemy, released freedom for all.

Yelm met Death, he fled down the dark path,

Only Orlanth and Lightbringers walk that path alive.

Orlanth, the liberator, freed his foe Yelm,

Brought him to life into a slave's station.

Yelm follows his path, unable to break it,

But Orlanth is free to follow the winds.

 

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm not sure how Elmal got demoted like this when he could have been just as well "discovered" to be a sub-cult/aspect of Yelm instead of Yelmalio.

I blame the Lightbringers' Quest. According to KoDP and the HQ clan generator process, Elmal was one of the few living deities entering the Gray Age from the Greater Darkness.

The new hot thing was the consequence of Orlanth bringing back his enemy, the Evil Emperor (thankfully with authority over the world removed from that title). It wasn't Elmal.

Lightfore the planet rose within memory of the Yuthuppan star seers in the Gray Age, as did Shargash. Plentonius calls the Greater Darkness the Dominion of Shargash, a thousand years YS. Towards the end of that, Jenarong aids Lightfore (who had somehow been saddled with Kargzant the star - not planet - from the Greater Darkness) against Shargash, with more than a century left in the "dominion of Shargash" as assigned by Plentonius. 

 

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Greg's article about this (like someone other people here) led me to believe Elmal was the bright sun disk god of the Orlanthi, not a little/cold sun. Oh well, I'm lucky enough to be an RQG newcomer so I don't have a yu-kargzant in this race...

Elmal/Antirius became sedentary sun-disk entities for the period after Orlanth slew the Emperor, slowly cooling down and becoming dimmer. Elmal guarding the stead may have been his (sudden?) inability to move around freely.

But then, none of the sons of Yelm had been born a dancer or wanderer. Their role in the Perfect Sky was to stand at readiness in the unchanging court of their evil emperor father, according to the Dara Happans. It took Umath's momentum to get them to move.

 

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What I'm more worried about is how to handle all those cults of vastly different power and usefulness as a GM. I understand that cults aren't supposed to be "character classes" so they're not meant to be "balanced", but players are still going to be annoyed at this unless there's some guidance and management of expectations written somewhere, so that they know what they're getting into when they create their character. I find that this problem already creeps up a bit with the default RQG cults.

The cult of Yelmalio offers a fairly good package for people going into the templar routine of a long-term mercenary whose regiments may be found on any side of a conflict but the dark one. This isn't exactly an adventuring position, though - templars join for a decade or two, if I remember the info in Pavis correctly. Any adventuring can only take place as part of an official assignment or in the sparse free time a full-time templar receives. Otherwise, this is a cushy position - it comes with a cult-sponsored assistant/lover/disciple, usually a young man, who helps don the armor. The templars accumulate quite a bit of pay with their temple, and assuming they survive their decades of service, they tend to retire wealthy. Their standard of living is that of a well-to-do free man, and while their time requirements may be like those of a priest, their daily life expenses are paid by the temple like for a priest.

The Yelmalio horse archer is another archetype, and covered by Yelmalion Sun Dome Templars, too. Possibly the better choice for an adventuring Yelmalian, with the spear and gilt light armor only a backup for their primary duty as skirmisher and (when on party duty) marksman. And not at all what long-time players of Yelmalio under RQ2 expect.

 

But then, the Humakti murder hobo making her daily life expenses drudging away as a caravan guard when not out there hunting undead or treasures guarded by them isn't exactly what RQG provides, either, and that most egregious munchkin device of a mobile temple in the shape of the Wooden Sword is so highly atypical that I wonder what people regard as the typical Humakti.

[Lordabdul]

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But then, the Humakti murder hobo making her daily life expenses drudging away as a caravan guard when not out there hunting undead or treasures guarded by them isn't exactly what RQG provides , either, and that most egregious munchkin device of a mobile temple in the shape of the Wooden Sword is so highly atypical that I wonder what people regard as the typical Humakti.

How is that not what RQG provides? Humakt is the God of professional warriors and soldiers. That includes mercenaries, and actually Humakt temples are often hiring halls, says RQG. So yeah, the caravan guards are most likely going to be Humakti AFAICT. So is going to be that warrior you hire to get rid of some local creature that's eating your livestock, if you or your clan people can't do it for some reason. That, along with the band of Humakti hired to help boost someone's numbers, is the "typical Humakti" in my opinion.

The question for me is more about how a given player is going to choose. "I want to play a fighter, what cult should I pick?". To answer this question, the GM can either (1) have a shortlist of a handful common cults and just reply "pick Humakt", therefore ignoring 95% of the upcoming Cults book, or (2) spend a long time explaining hard-to-compare differences (calendar, anyone?) between various cults and loose the player to choice paralysis. Even the cults list in RQG's core book got half of my players to question their motivation to play RQG in the first place... and that's after I removed 3 cults and limited each cult write-up to one paragraph! (next time I'll just mention Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, Issaries, and Lhankor Mhy). Cults of Prax kept the choices down to a manageable size, with minimal overlap between cults in terms of archetype, gameplay, feel, etc. Cults of Terror made it clear these were NPC-only. I just want to make sure that new players' questions will be easy to answer in RQG and that the Cults book will actually be useful for gaming, as opposed to being a mythology book with stats. What's the point of having, say, the Elmal sub-cult of Yelmalio if it isn't clear why a player would pick it as their cult compared to other much better cults? A new player isn't going to care or even know who Elmal is, they're just going to look at the roleplay and gameplay opportunities. Or maybe Elmal is meant to be an NPC cult! I don't know!

Edited January 22, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

The question for me is more about how a given player is going to choose. "I want to play a fighter, what cult should I pick?". To answer this question, the GM can either (1) have a shortlist of a handful common cults and just reply "pick Humakt"

With RQG though, at least you can extend this to "pick Humakt or Orlanth - do you prefer swords or lightning?". 🙂

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

With RQG though, at least you can extend this to "pick Humakt or Orlanth - do you prefer swords or lightning?". 🙂

Heh. Yeah. Although Lightning isn't even very impressive, at least for a beginning character. I would frame it more like this: Humakti are full time mercenaries with strict worship discipline (gifts and geases), and only know battle and death. Orlanthi have a family, and follow slightly more varied stereotypes: farmers who like to raid in the summer, weaponthanes who patrol the clan's borders, etc... but yeah, I would also suggest Orlanth if someone wants to make a fighter.

Edited January 22, 2020 by lordabdul

[JustAnotherVingan]

racter

25 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

How is that not what RQG provides? Humakt is the God of professional warriors and soldiers. That includes mercenaries, and actually Humakt temples are often hiring halls, says RQG. So yeah, the caravan guards are most likely going to be Humakti AFAICT. So is going to be that warrior you hire to get rid of some local creature that's eating your livestock, if you or your clan people can't do it for some reason. That, along with the band of Humakti hired to help boost someone's numbers, is the "typical Humakti" in my opinion.

The question for me is more about how a given player is going to choose. "I want to play a fighter, what cult should I pick?". To answer this question, the GM can either (1) have a shortlist of a handful common cults and just reply "pick Humakt", therefore ignoring 95% of the upcoming Cults book, or (2) spend a long time explaining hard-to-compare differences (calendar, anyone?) between various cults and loose the player to choice paralysis. Even the cults list in RQG's core book got half of my players to question their motivation to play RQG in the first place... and that's after I removed 3 cults and limited each cult write-up to one paragraph! (next time I'll just mention Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, Issaries, and Lhankor Mhy). Cults of Prax kept the choices down to a manageable size, with minimal overlap between cults in terms of archetype, gameplay, feel, etc. Cults of Terror made it clear these were NPC-only. I just want to make sure that new players' questions will be easy to answer in RQG and that the Cults book will actually be useful for gaming, as opposed to being a mythology book with stats. What's the point of having, say, the Elmal sub-cult of Yelmalio if it isn't clear why a player would pick it as their cult compared to other much better cults? A new player isn't going to care or even know who Elmal is, they're just going to look at the roleplay and gameplay opportunities. Or maybe Elmal is meant to be an NPC cult! I don't know!

Humakt is a god of professional warriors and soldiers but hes hardly the only choice.

If a player wants to play a warrior and asks what cult they should belong to ask what type of warrior they want to be.

Depending on their answers Storm Bull or Babeestor Gor might be a better fit than Humakt. All 3 of those cults make the character a somewhat unusual person, someone "normal" people fear. If they don't fancy that Orlanth, Vinga or Elmal might fit them better. Elmal is ideal if the player wants to play someone who is dependable and loyal but not a leader.

To make the choices less overwhelming for my current players I've made them all come from the same Sartarite clan, but if I was refereeing a group more familiar with Glorantha I might set it in Pavis where a more cosmopolitan party is easier to justify.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

 Elmal is ideal if the player wants to play someone who is dependable and loyal but not a leader.

Except that Elmal seems like he will be an awful pick for anyone wanting fighting magic, if he’s going to be a poor man’s Yelmalio, when Yelmalio already has among the weakest magic of any of the gods.