Rules for Religious/Psionic Asceticism

[sladethesniper]

Are there any rules or skills for religious or psionic asceticism anywhere?  

Thank you in advance.

-STS

[Lloyd Dupont]

What about the Psionic power in BRP?

Or Mysticism rule in Legend/Mythras?

Additionally I like the stunt concept of Revolution D100 or feat from Blood Tide, and I am thinking it would be nice to add a range of power (maximum INT of them) and I am thinking to make a list of power gated various skill at, say, 50% or 75%, maybe inspired from D&D classes's power or Mysticism

[Ian Absentia]

You mean gaining special abilities through prolonged denial of worldly engagement?  Aside from the obvious impediment to engaging roleplay, you might look to the Ki Skills from Land of Ninja for RQ3 (assuming you can find it).  Failing that, I'd suggest you duplicate this post to the Mythras forum elsewhere here on this site -- they do mysticism in some depth in that BRP-compatible game.

!I!

[sladethesniper]

7 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

You mean gaining special abilities through prolonged denial of worldly engagement?  Aside from the obvious impediment to engaging roleplay, you might look to the Ki Skills from Land of Ninja for RQ3 (assuming you can find it).  Failing that, I'd suggest you duplicate this post to the Mythras forum elsewhere here on this site -- they do mysticism in some depth in that BRP-compatible game.

!I!

Well, I was meaning more things like a lot of vows, not just chilling in a tower focusing on eternity.  Something like living only on bread and water, no sex, vows of poverty, etc. 

Thanks for the heads up on Mythras Lloyd and Ian.

-STS

[Mugen]

An idea could be to reduce the character's Hit Points for extra Magic Points.

Or reduce physical skills to increase mental ones.

In Sandy Petersen's Sorcery rules for RuneQuest 3, vows increase your Presence, which is basically the maximum intensity of spells one can maintain at a given time.

In RQ3's Gods of Glorantha, Humakt initiates can take vows in exchange with a technical benefit. There's a list of possible vows and benefits listed. For instance, one can take the "do not speak one day in week" in the vows list, and "+5% to a Sword skill" in the Benefits list. I think Yelmalio has something similar.

In old French game Légendes Celtiques, you could take vows (Gesa) at character's creation in exchange for extra skill points.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Mugen

[Zit]

By using Revolution D100's stunt and consequences and inspired by Merrie England, you may :

- suffer a permanent Consequence due to a specific asceticism (i.e. a 30% penalty on any relevant action or a vow), which allows to:

- gain an aspect of the religion in the form of a Trait/Allgiance and

- learn related powers in the form of Stunts of this Trait

[RosenMcStern]

This is a type of question that it is dangerous to ask, as everyone will point at their favourite system even when they have not fully understood what you wanted

That said, if I have understood your question (and it is a big if), then the Mysricism rules in Mythras are a good answer. 

As much as I love "Land of Ninja", I suggest you stay clear from its Ki rules. They were extremely innovative for the times, but we are talking about 35 years ago, more or less. The rules allow you to score "super criticals" by spending Magic Points, but they require levels of competence in skills that require months if not years of playing, in real time, to have a noticeable effect in play. Note also that some of the "super criticals" have become standard skill effects in modern BRP or RuneQuest. Nice, but not really usable unless you play 2-3 times per week.

But most important of all - what do you mean by psionic asceticism ? Cause I am still afraid that not everybody (me included) really got what you were looking for.

[Ian Absentia]

7 hours ago, sladethesniper said:

Well, I was meaning more things like a lot of vows, not just chilling in a tower focusing on eternity.  Something like living only on bread and water, no sex, vows of poverty, etc.

That sounds a lot like the geas rules for some of the cults in RuneQuest (e.g., Yelmalio and Humakt).

1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

As much as I love "Land of Ninja", I suggest you stay clear from its Ki rules. They were extremely innovative for the times, but we are talking about 35 years ago, more or less.

Please, this is BRP we're talking about.

!i!

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

As much as I love "Land of Ninja", I suggest you stay clear from its Ki rules. They were extremely innovative for the times, but we are talking about 35 years ago, more or less. The rules allow you to score "super criticals" by spending Magic Points, but they require levels of competence in skills that require months if not years of playing, in real time, to have a noticeable effect in play. Note also that some of the "super criticals" have become standard skill effects in modern BRP or RuneQuest. Nice, but not really usable unless you play 2-3 times per week.

LoN Ki rules are very good for characters whose skill level is so far above mundane human that it allows them to perform feats that would appear supernatural.

It would be in fact very good for Tolkienesque elves magic, which is more a reflexion of one's perfected abilities than traditional D&D magic.

[sladethesniper]

1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

psionic asceticism ?

Same thing as asceticism, but instead of getting "magic" you get "psionic" abilities...not really a big mechanical difference, just a different descriptor.  I don't really know if there would be different ascetic traditions for them, so to cover my bases, I am assuming they are different.

-STS

[Ian Absentia]

14 minutes ago, Mugen said:

LoN Ki rules are very good for characters whose skill level is so far above mundane human that it allows them to perform feats that would appear supernatural.

Relative to the original post, it's worth noting that the Ki Skills rules don't actually deal directly with asceticism, but provide rules for abilities that might result from ascetic devotion.  They might just as well represent a lifetime of being a badass, though.  It's a matter of interpretation.

!i!

[RosenMcStern]

6 minutes ago, sladethesniper said:

Same thing as asceticism, but instead of getting "magic" you get "psionic" abilities...not really a big mechanical difference, just a different descriptor.  I don't really know if there would be different ascetic traditions for them, so to cover my bases, I am assuming they are different.

-STS

Ah ok, so what you meant is "Asceticism that gives you access to powers from the Psi chapter of the BGB rules". 

Then the answer is "no", since all systems we recommended here give access to powers taken from their power list

3 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Relative to the original post, it's worth noting that the Ki Skills rules don't actually deal directly with asceticism, but provide rules for abilities that might result from ascetic devotion.  They might just as well represent a lifetime of being a badass, though.  It's a matter of interpretation.

!i!

The Ki rules are nice, but as you noted here they are good for "over the top" characters with dozens if not hundreds of years' experience. Unless you start with skills at 90+, then it takes really long to be able to use Ki. From a practical point of view, if you want to portray a character who is building a career as a mystic, they are of little use.

[Ian Absentia]

40 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

The Ki rules are nice, but as you noted here they are good for "over the top" characters with dozens if not hundreds of years' experience. Unless you start with skills at 90+, then it takes really long to be able to use Ki. From a practical point of view, if you want to portray a character who is building a career as a mystic, they are of little use.

Point taken -- they're the carrot at the end of the stick.  They're what an entire campaign might aspire toward, not necessarily the powers one might actively employ.

Geas rules, on the other hand, reverse that order.  You get the powers now, associated directly with proscriptive behavior, which in turn affect how one plays.  They're dead simple, too (and even older than the Ki skills!).

!i!

[RosenMcStern]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

Point taken -- they're the carrot at the end of the stick.  They're what an entire campaign might aspire toward, not necessarily the powers one might actively employ.

Geas rules, on the other hand, reverse that order.  You get the powers now, associated directly with proscriptive behavior, which in turn affect how one plays.  They're dead simple, too (and even older than the Ki skills!).

!i!

In other words, a little bit more playtested

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

In other words, a little bit more playtested

😝

It's a matter of goals in play, I reckon.  The Ki Skills weren't entirely out of keeping with the 2nd and 3rd Ed. approach to Rune Mastery in RQ.  Again, where do you want the power level of your campaign to begin?  The new RQG has set that default level higher, and yet still included the old Geas rules.

And (though my memory is a little rusty and, admittedly, I never actually used them in play), I got the impression that the Mythras/RQ6 rules for mysticism had a strong whiff of a Ki Skill lineage.  Presumably better playtested.

!i!

[Prinz Slasar]

6 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

And (though my memory is a little rusty and, admittedly, I never actually used them in play), I got the impression that the Mythras/RQ6 rules for mysticism had a strong whiff of a Ki Skill lineage.  Presumably better playtested.

The Mysticism rules of MYTHRAS are a toolkit to model a magic system whererin the magic is gained through willpower [either meditation or asceticism].
Because it is a formal system you can illustrate it with the setting fluff you want: Jedis, Wuxia, the DnD-Monk, the mystic with supernatural powers etc.

Mysticism needs two magic skills: Meditation and Mysticism

Furthermore, MYTHRAS has its own PSI Rules: in the supplements Luther Arkwright, After the Vampire Wars, Worlds United and M-SPACE.

The Mysticism rules are in the MYTHRAS Core Rules, with additional talents in Luther Arkwright, Mythic Constantinople, Worlds United and After the Vampire Wars.
Another take on Mysticism Rules is the Monk class in MYTHRAS' CLASSIC FANTASY.

Edited January 28, 2020 by prinz.slasar

[Mugen]

10 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

And (though my memory is a little rusty and, admittedly, I never actually used them in play), I got the impression that the Mythras/RQ6 rules for mysticism had a strong whiff of a Ki Skill lineage.  Presumably better playtested.

!i!

To my eyes they're more reminiscent of Shadowrunks rules for Adepts. Both let characters chose permanent powers, up to a limit based on Magic attribute in SR, and a skill/10 in Mythras.

I remember seeing the idea of a skill that you can only learn once you've reach a high level in another skill in two games. Nephilim, where you need to have 90+ in a magic skill to learn higher level magic. Also Hawmoon's french edition, which introduced "bottes" in the supplement on France. Bottes reproduced duelists' special moves as attack skills that automatically applied a major wound to an opponent, with no damage roll required, and always with the same major wound effect.

[Ian Absentia]

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

I remember seeing the idea of a skill that you can only learn once you've reach a high level in another skill in two games. Nephilim, where you need to have 90+ in a magic skill to learn higher level magic. Also Hawmoon's french edition, which introduced "bottes" in the supplement on France.

Right, "thresholds" -- the requirement to display a level of mastery of a skill before even trying something more complex. I always liked those, though they could lead down a path to excessive crunch.

Interesting that both came out of French game design from the '90s and that you see the influence farther afield in the decade thereafter.

!i!

[Lloyd Dupont]

7 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

16 hours ago, Mugen said:

I remember seeing the idea of a skill that you can only learn once you've reach a high level in another skill in two games. Nephilim, where you need to have 90+ in a magic skill to learn higher level magic. Also Hawmoon's french edition, which introduced "bottes" in the supplement on France.

Right, "thresholds" -- the requirement to display a level of mastery of a skill before even trying something more complex. I always liked those, though they could lead down a path to excessive crunch.

Interesting that both came out of French game design from the '90s and that you see the influence farther afield in the decade thereafter.

!i!

Well.. the idea lives on!

Revolution D100 has skill & stunts (this is a slot system, a bit different from other D100 system), Legend has legendary ability with stiff skill requirement, Blood and Tide (BRP supplement) has stunts with no particular requirement (it's in the power section thought they are like powerful combat manoeuvre, mostly).

Me think of having a stunt system to BRP, with easy requirement (50% or 75% perhaps) that take its inspiration from everything (such as Blood and Tide, D&D5e)

Edited January 28, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Mugen]

16 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Right, "thresholds" -- the requirement to display a level of mastery of a skill before even trying something more complex. I always liked those, though they could lead down a path to excessive crunch.

Interesting that both came out of French game design from the '90s and that you see the influence farther afield in the decade thereafter.

!i!

I'm sure other non-french games re-used the idea, those are just examples I know well.

[Prinz Slasar]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:14 PM, Ian Absentia said:

Right, "thresholds" -- the requirement to display a level of mastery of a skill before even trying something more complex. I always liked those, though they could lead down a path to excessive crunch.

 

This idea is the whole point of the MYTHRAS system with its ranks in organizations [like Cults, Brotherhoods etc.]. The "thresholds" are coupled with certain percentile values in certain skills.
Almost all of the magic systems of MYTHRAS are using this threshold-framework. To "unlock" specific magical powers you have to reach skill levels/ranks.
 

Edited January 29, 2020 by prinz.slasar

[Mugen]

17 hours ago, prinz.slasar said:

This idea is the whole point of the MYTHRAS system with its ranks in organizations [like Cults, Brotherhoods etc.]. The "thresholds" are coupled with certain percentile values in certain skills.
Almost all of the magic systems of MYTHRAS are using this threshold-framework. To "unlock" specific magical powers you have to reach skill levels/ranks.
 

Organization ranks and skill thresholds are from RuneQuest 2 and 3 requirements for becoming Priests or Runelords in cults.

[Prinz Slasar]

29 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Organization ranks and skill thresholds are from RuneQuest 2 and 3 requirements for becoming Priests or Runelords in cults.

Yes, but it's 2020 and RQ2 and RQ3 are decades in the past. MYTHRAS is the current big, universal D100-system.
Furthermore, the "thresholds" in MYTHRAS are much more abstract and broader [means: more flexible] than the RQ2-priest ranks.

Or, in other words: MYTHRAS is a whole different beast than old RQ2/RQ3.
 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, prinz.slasar said:

Yes, but it's 2020 and RQ2 and RQ3 are decades in the past. MYTHRAS is the current big, universal D100-system.

I know more current RQIII players than Mythras players.

[Prinz Slasar]

5 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I know more current RQIII players than Mythras players.

I don't want to start some kind of flame war regarding RQ editions.
MYTHRAS was mentioned in this thread as an example and became a topic, that's why I commented.
In case of MYTHRAS the older editions RQ2 and RQ3 are just historical anecdotes.

From the point of view of an RQ2 or RQ3 player this could look different, for sure.