When you’ve got a lunar in a party of Orlanthi.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Many in Northern Sartar are originally Tarshite, and have been Lunar for generations. 

While practically every Sartarite north of the Stream is of Tarshite descent (Arim's kingdom, or rather that of his great-grandson Yarandros, may even have included a few of the Quivini tribe), few of them had welcomed Hon-eel's son on the Tarshite throne, and there is no indication that the Lunar missionaries made significant inroads before the Fall of Boldhome. Defending the Far Point tribes was the cause of death for Jarolar and Jarosar.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

You can't slaughter whole chunks of your own clan. That's kinstrife.

You can "invite" them to go away, in case of doubt send them into (at least temporary) exile. Fazzur's lands may have welcomed them.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Thats an invitation to Chaos and doom. They are members of your clan or citizens of your city, and have legal rights, maybe allies on the ring, maybe links by marriage.

All of that is correct, and all of that can be suspended.

Rather than exiled, these clan folk may have been sent on a mission as liaison to Fazzur instead - a polite fiction that looks like exile, feels like exile, but keeps the clan's claims for wergeld.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Even the 'Lunar' leaders that came in with the occupation are mostly only from Tarsh - they are culturally mch closer than they are to Praxians. 

Fazzur's administration had its fair share of Heartlanders and Provincials from outside of Tarsh.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Plenty of 'Lunars' are going to decide that even with the change in government, sticking around where they have houses, businesses, families is still better than setting off to somewhere they don't know, or left for very good reasons. And most Sartarites are going to disapprove, but they might have good reasons not to turn it into a pogrom. 

Quite a few may still have decided to go on business trips or join some remote herders on the high pastures for much of the rest of 1625, though.

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

And plenty of Sartarite converts to the Lunar religion will find real spiritual value in it, and decide not to convert back, even if it is no longer as politically expedient. They still want to live where they always lived, on their own lands, among their own people. That will mean showing that, despite their weird new religion, they are still valuable members of their new communities.

Their old communities?

[coffeemancer]

be a lunar of the white moon

[Stephen L]

On 2/4/2020 at 10:02 PM, Bran the Brainless said:

So, what could be reasons for why a lunar character could potentially become a traitor to his culture and become sympathetic and even act directly against his religion/ nation?

• reaction against Lunar atrocities

• personal grudges against Lunar rule (or rulers)

• hatred of Lunar taxes

• love of the land that’s been home for the past 20 years

• love/personal debts to Orlanthi individuals/groups

I could see those motivating someone who isn’t ready to give up their gods.

I’ve an innkeeper NPC (well brewer with an open house), who’s secretly an old Lunar soldier.  In his basement (open for clandestine Seven Mothers worship) there’s a child he’s rescued, who’s gone mad having seen the bat eat her family and home.  Seeing that broke the soldier, deserting and taking the child, tending her, but he’s got to keep her hidden otherwise her mad ramblings would give them both away.  What are the player’s going to do, because they happen to be a bunch of fully passioned up Lunar haters, and there’s an lynch mob out for Lunars and Lunar sympathisers right now burning the inn…

I’d hope it’s possible to play Lunars/Seven Mothers in Sartar after the liberation, because there may well be a lot of them!  Wulfsland, was settled by Lunar outlaws, farmers from the Lunar Heartlands, veterans of the Lunar Army, under Duke Jomes (anyone know what’s happened to him?), and the new tribe Enstalos, formed taking the lands of the extinct Dundealos, when the best lands were given to Lunar settlers from Tarsh and Aggar.

On 2/4/2020 at 10:02 PM, Bran the Brainless said:

When Argrath and the nomads sack Pavis, sources generally describes the lack of mercy given to any Lunarites found within the city. Other commentaries within King of Sartar also seem very black and white, making it hard to creat an argument to a Lunar to ally with his enemies.

There are historical examples of liberations being followed by mass ethnic cleansing (on one end of the scale) or else of a relatively smooth transition between elites (on the other).  Which is it in Sartar?  Don't really know, I'm having both and a lot in-between, but I’m more driven by roleplaying potential than a desire to be correct to "Glorantha Historiography".  

But then in my Glorantha, it’s a heroic age, so what drives the show is a relatively small bunch of people.  For me, it’s what Leika/Kallyr/Argrath (and soon the players) thinks should happen to the Lunars that’s going to drive things.  And their viewpoints are easy for me (the GM) to manipulate, whilst still (hopefully) maintaining believability.  

Life will be tough for a Seven Mothers worshiper.  How are they going to worship? In my campaign they’ll be clandestine secret cults, driven underground by paranoia, and retributions. 

There’s opportunity as well – a hero quest to set up a subcult of Seven Mothers, loyal to Sartar. That could be pivotal in a campaign majoring on the Tarsh civil wars, especially with Sartar involvement in said wars. 

[coffeemancer]

what year did agrath sack pavis?

[Bran the Brainless]

Argrath  liberated Pavis, early in 1625. He then unsuccessfully marched on Sartar. 
Dragonrise occurred shortly afterwards.

 

[Bran the Brainless]

Stephen L, great ideas there, especially the Lunar innkeeper and child. I’d love to know if any of your player characters develops a conscience! 

 

[Darius West]

If a Lunar is one of "Fazzur's Men", they might feel very betrayed by the Lunar hierarchy, and the Sartarites might be less against them as for the most part Fazzur was a decent and honorable antagonist. i.e. the sort you could make peace with.

[EricW]

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

If a Lunar is one of "Fazzur's Men", they might feel very betrayed by the Lunar hierarchy, and the Sartarites might be less against them as for the most part Fazzur was a decent and honorable antagonist. i.e. the sort you could make peace with.

Rehabilitation of Lunars is messy. They might be illuminates, right? Your magic won't tell you if they are lying chaos scum. Nobody would admit to being able to tell whether a Lunar was an illuminate, because then everyone would suspect them of being a chaos traitor as well. Storm Bulls ransacking Lunar premises would turn up enough evidence of evil that they would pretty much stay berserk until the job was done, I don't think any chaos hater would need to pray hard to refresh their magic again and again on the day of reckoning.

Aside from exceptional circumstances, where influential Orlanthi or other Lightbringers are willing to speak on behalf of a well regarded Lunar, say a famous healer who has saved many lives, nobody would stand in the way of chaos haters putting them all to the sword. And even a Lunar healer under "protection" had better consider leaving quickly. Lore keepers would remember how Gbaji sent false healers to deceive people into accepting their vile faith.

Edited April 3, 2020 by EricW

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

Rehabilitation of Lunars is messy. They might be illuminates, right? Your magic won't tell you if they are lying chaos scum. Nobody would admit to being able to tell whether a Lunar was an illuminate, because then everyone would suspect them of being a chaos traitor as well. Storm Bulls ransacking Lunar premises would turn up enough evidence of evil that they would pretty much stay berserk until the job was done, I don't think any chaos hater would need to pray hard to refresh their magic again and again on the day of reckoning.

If a Sartarite chieftain can have Yelmite Grazer scum among his weaponthanes, there is little to stop them from keeping proven companions from the Lunar occupation who acted as interlocutors then on their retainer. Maybe no longer in the seat of honor.

 

I don't think that there is any wide-spread fear of illuminates being present among the clans. And with Argrath's Magical Union, those illuminates could be our illuminates.

 

Lunars will be measured against their behavior during the Occupation. I doubt that Char Un survivors are likely to be integrated into any party, except perhaps among Pol Joni (who have a tradition of taking in mounted outlaws of dubious provenance) or some progressive traditionalist Grazer chief, and an asshole Dara Happan bureaucrat/cleptocrat like Jotoran Longsword won't find many who would vouch for him.

 

Fazzur was quite ruthless, and there are numerous communities that bear a more personal grudge against him, first and foremost the durulz and the kin of Hofstaring, but many will remember him as a hard but usually fair governor who rarely was petty like the Assiday ones (Euglyptus and Tatius).

My occupation stories had reasonable (Sairdite, Tarshite) and asshole (Dara Happan) occupation forces, with some fraternizing done by those of Theyalan background and ruthless exploitation and enslavement by those from stratified cultures.

3 hours ago, EricW said:

Aside from exceptional circumstances, where influential Orlanthi or other Lightbringers are willing to speak on behalf of a well regarded Lunar, say a famous healer who has saved many lives, nobody would stand in the way of chaos haters putting them all to the sword. And even a Lunar healer under "protection" had better consider leaving quickly. Lore keepers would remember how Gbaji sent false healers to deceive people into accepting their vile faith.

Gbaji has been overcome longer ago than the Mongol Khakhans have left Europe and the Islamic World alone.

Lunar Chaos in Sartar so far is mainly their Crimson Bat, and that special Hell that Hofstaring shares with Sheng, plus the unspeakable sacrifices at the new Lunar Temple that became dragon fodder.

The Lunars had no need to hide behind illuminated agents, as they had plenty willing collaborators from among the natives. If anyone was suspect, it was Blackmor.

 

[Darius West]

10 hours ago, EricW said:

Rehabilitation of Lunars is messy. They might be illuminates, right? Your magic won't tell you if they are lying chaos scum. Nobody would admit to being able to tell whether a Lunar was an illuminate, because then everyone would suspect them of being a chaos traitor as well. Storm Bulls ransacking Lunar premises would turn up enough evidence of evil that they would pretty much stay berserk until the job was done, I don't think any chaos hater would need to pray hard to refresh their magic again and again on the day of reckoning.

Aside from exceptional circumstances, where influential Orlanthi or other Lightbringers are willing to speak on behalf of a well regarded Lunar, say a famous healer who has saved many lives, nobody would stand in the way of chaos haters putting them all to the sword. And even a Lunar healer under "protection" had better consider leaving quickly. Lore keepers would remember how Gbaji sent false healers to deceive people into accepting their vile faith.

To be fair, there is a huge upswing in illumination during the Hero Wars among the Sartarites.  This is partly because Argrath is an illuminate, and partly because of the increased participation of draconic mystics in the Sartar Magical Union.  Personally I would utterly separate draconic mysticism from illumination, as one is ancient draconic insight, while the other is lying chaos trash, but apparently illumination via Nysalor is somehow "legit", despite the fact that it teaches that Chaos isn't intrinsically inimical to all life, when there is considerable evidence to suggest that this just ain't so.