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The Problem Rune Spells (and a quick-fix for most)


Akhôrahil

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7 minutes ago, davecake said:

Well, first off, the answer to that is kind of yes - Spirit Block has always been in the game and is considerably less powerful than it used to be. But it is also a lot more accessible with Rune points. 

What I meant is,, "does this reasonably emulate what we know about the world from description and fiction"? That is, is it a successful emulation? I don't really see that it is - spirits are serious business, not gnats. 

7 minutes ago, davecake said:

mean that the spirit combat ends with the defender victorious and the defender can Bind it or similar, or just that the attacking spirit can no longer threaten the defender, but can just leave if it wants. This makes quite a bit of difference to shamans - it becomes an emergency last resort, but one that is usually avoided, if the latter is true - and I suspect it is. 

I've assumed it's just a win. Otherwise, things change quite a bit (and instead you have to do gamey tactics like check on the MPs of the spirit, maybe get rid of the spell once you have almost won, using Spirit Screen (which doesn't have this rule) instead of Spirit Block, and so on). Usually, Rune Magic versions of a Spirit Magic spell do not come with additions that make them worse.

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19 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

What I meant is,, "does this reasonably emulate what we know about the world from description and fiction"? That is, is it a successful emulation? I don't really see that it is - spirits are serious business, not gnats. 

Hardly any of Greg's gloranthan fiction can easily be replicated with RuneQuest. It's a game system for telling different kinds of stories. There aren't any game systems that have ever done Lord of the Rings properly either. Book fiction is different from roleplaying. People don't tend to play a Gandalf in an RPG, for instance.

RuneQuest and HeroQuest are entirely different systems, yet they are both for Gloranthan gaming. If one is "right", then the other is "wrong".

Havng said that, I agree with the basic point that spirits should be scary, and Spirit Block could be seen to nullify them entirely. But spending RP is a big deal for a low level character, they only get 3 or 4 of them and they might need them for something else. Anything that needs RP expenditure is inherently scary to my players.

The apprentice shaman in my group wanted to help out with a disease outbreak, so he used all his RP to cast Discorporate and engage the spirits. So he had no RP to spend, because he was using them all on Discorporates. I can't remember if he cast Spirit Screen, because that ate into his precious MP that he'd need to survive the combat. So, in the end, he was on his own with no buffs. Scary.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

Havng said that, I agree with the basic point that spirits should be scary, and Spirit Block could be seen to nullify them entirely. But spending RP is a big deal for a low level character, they only get 3 or 4 of them and they might need them for something else. Anything that needs RP expenditure is inherently scary to my players.

While this isn't quite a house-rule thread, I'm increasingly happy with how well my house-rule of "you cannot spend more than half your Rune Points on a single stackable Rune Spell (except for Dismiss Magic)" is turning out. In the case of Spirit Block, you will tend not to be able to completely nullify an adequate (for your power level) spirit. And as long as it's just "this gives me a nice bonus in an otherwise difficult fight" instead of "I Win", it's all good. 

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17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

What I meant is,, "does this reasonably emulate what we know about the world from description and fiction"? That is, is it a successful emulation? I don't really see that it is - spirits are serious business, not gnats. 

My assumption is that Greg was quite clear about Spirit Block, it not only was present since the very early days of the game, and was more powerful then, but text describing it as the gift of Flesh Man to all living priests, calling it 'their vote on the spirit plane', is at least as old as Cults of Prax. So it emulates what I have always understand about the world from description. 

And looking at Cults of Prax - I am more convinced that the 'unable to interact' text from the spell description is intended to mean that a spirit that whose magic points fall low enough is free to go on its way, and that this is deliberately different to Spirit Screen etc. The example use of the spell on pg 17 of the Cults of Prax re-release talks about how if a spirits temporary POW falls below the POW blocked by the spell, "then the Rune Priest no longer can interact with his adversary, and the spirit can depart in peace."

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Usually, Rune Magic versions of a Spirit Magic spell do not come with additions that make them worse.

Sure, but I believe this to be a special case. 

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48 minutes ago, davecake said:

And looking at Cults of Prax - I am more convinced that the 'unable to interact' text from the spell description is intended to mean that a spirit that whose magic points fall low enough is free to go on its way, and that this is deliberately different to Spirit Screen etc. The example use of the spell on pg 17 of the Cults of Prax re-release talks about how if a spirits temporary POW falls below the POW blocked by the spell, "then the Rune Priest no longer can interact with his adversary, and the spirit can depart in peace."

I think this would be pretty cool, and it certainly reins in Spirit Block to when you really just want to defend yourself. Probably best for non-shamans, or as an emergency spell for shamans for when the shit hits the fan. Spirit Screen (which comes with at least some size restrictions) or spirit armor enchanting for everyday offensive use.

Any shaman who feels like it can probably get a 15-point or so permanent Spirit Screen, but at least this requires some commitment of resources.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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7 hours ago, davecake said:

err... quite a lot of seconds, two rounds at least. 

And to have six buff spells known  - thats a professional sorcerer who happens to also be in Lhankor Mhy, but devotes more of their time to non-Lhankor Mhy sorcery. 

Only by current rules. And even then, LM rules. 

Which is why I'd really like to see a "Western" book come out soon, or a larger write-up on sorcery. (And I presume I'm not the only one!)

 

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7 hours ago, davecake said:

Odayla gets a raw deal. 

Odayla isn't bad, just very niche. Putting yourself into full bear form for an hour is pretty hardcore. But you're a one-trick... bear.

Yinkin, though... that must be one of the worst set of rune spells outside Yelmalio? 

(BTW, does anyone understand what it means when the cult description says that Odayla is frequently worshipped as a sub-cult of Orlanth? I mean sure, I can see an Odayla sub-cult, but it's not in the rulebook, and surely you don't get the full set of Rune Spells that way? If you could just get everything Odayla gets anyway by subcult initiation that doesn't really cost you anything, why wouldn't you, and wouldn't this just supercede the regular Odayla cult completely?) 

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9 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Only by current rules.

Yes, but there isn't much point in speculating how the rules balance would be different if only the rules were different. 

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

And even then, LM rules. 

LM is awesome at doing what LM does. Which isn't blasting away with combat magic, and mostly shouldn't be.  

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Which is why I'd really like to see a "Western" book come out soon, or a larger write-up on sorcery. (And I presume I'm not the only one!)

You are definitely not the only one. Especially as the one adventure featuring sorcery was essentially just a parade of awkward fudging because the sorcery rules didn't fit it. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Odayla isn't bad, just very niche.

I think Odayla is bad - and partly because it is very niche, when there isn't a good reason for it to be. Odayla should at least be a competent hunter god, if Odayla is supposed to be the Orlanthi hunter god. And it is supposed to be a cult powerful enough to take the place of Orlanth in Sylila. 

I liked the HeroQuest version of it, which was much more interesting. 

And turning into a bear is FAR too expensive. 

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8 minutes ago, davecake said:

I liked the HeroQuest version of it, which was much more interesting. 

"Sleep Back to Life" may be my favorite HQ thing of all time! Absolutely agree that HQ Odayla was awesome!

RQG talks a lot about the mystical connection of hunter and prey, of man and bear... and then the spells are all about how you get big, and also get strong, and that's it.

And your really good spell, Bear's Strength, goes to Orlanth anyway.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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7 minutes ago, davecake said:

Odayla should at least be a competent hunter god, if Odayla is supposed to be the Orlanthi hunter god.

RQG really hates on hunters, doesn't it? The profession is awful and doesn't give you the tools you need for the job, and the special hunter cults are among the worst in the book.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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7 hours ago, davecake said:

And to have six buff spells known  - thats a professional sorcerer who happens to also be in Lhankor Mhy, but devotes more of their time to non-Lhankor Mhy sorcery

Professional sorcerer - yes. Lhankor Mhy - no.

To bad LM is the only cult mentioned in the cults section, where the sorcery section mentions a few other cultures/cults.

LM only has 1 Rune and 1 Technique taught to students, whereas Malkioni get 3 Runes and 2 Techniques... 1 Time is Spirit (handy), one is an Element (again, handy!). And Chargen rules allow for saccing POW to have more.

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1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

RQG really hates on hunters, doesn't it? The profession is awful and doesn't give you the tools you need for the job, and the special hunter cults are among the worst in the book.

Yes, I have no idea why, but its as if there is grudge against them. The profession is bad, less skill points than almost any profession, for a very skill based occupation, and with glaring omissions, and the cults seem a bit weak and misdesigned - and Yinkin and Odayla both seem very stripped back to a much more boring cult from a much more interesting HQG version. 

Another issue if the confusing associated cults etc for Yinkin and Odayla. 

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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

RQG really hates on hunters, doesn't it? The profession is awful and doesn't give you the tools you need for the job, and the special hunter cults are among the worst in the book

I haven't mentioned this yet in many replies on this thread, but I agree with this.  The character generation for a Hunter should be very skills heavy -- and the cult Rune spells may be okay-ish individually, but together they are just too expensive for your 15 minutes of bear-ness.

The skills thing is fixable with a little GMing, or just adding in a skill or two to the mix.  The Rune Spells have a bit more consequence, and deserve to be looked at by the Game designers.  Even if they ultimately decide that everything is "working as intended", I would support a look at them.  

One in-game thing that might help is if changing into a bear has an effect other than a combat boost.  Improve friendship with beasts?  Commune with nature spirits?  Right now you just turn into a bear for decent, but very expensive combat buffs.

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2 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, I have no idea why, but its as if there is grudge against them. The profession is bad, less skill points than almost any profession, for a very skill based occupation, and with glaring omissions, and the cults seem a bit weak and misdesigned - and Yinkin and Odayla both seem very stripped back to a much more boring cult from a much more interesting HQG version. 

Another issue if the confusing associated cults etc for Yinkin and Odayla. 

And of course Grazelander hunters are in an even worse state as their hunter god doesn't teach any useful skills. (And of course, Odayla, Yinkin and Foundchild also don't teach Animal Lore, one of the Hunter's most important skills for their livelihood. Which would probably make Lhankor Mhy as good a starting cult for them.)

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6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

While this isn't quite a house-rule thread, I'm increasingly happy with how well my house-rule of "you cannot spend more than half your Rune Points on a single stackable Rune Spell (except for Dismiss Magic)" is turning out. In the case of Spirit Block, you will tend not to be able to completely nullify an adequate (for your power level) spirit. And as long as it's just "this gives me a nice bonus in an otherwise difficult fight" instead of "I Win", it's all good. 

At first read, I like that idea. I will definitely consider that house-rule.

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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

"Sleep Back to Life" may be my favorite HQ thing of all time! Absolutely agree that HQ Odayla was awesome!

RQG talks a lot about the mystical connection of hunter and prey, of man and bear... and then the spells are all about how you get big, and also get strong, and that's it.

And your really good spell, Bear's Strength, goes to Orlanth anyway.

Where is 'Sleep Back to Life' available?

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3 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, I have no idea why, but its as if there is grudge against them. The profession is bad, less skill points than almost any profession, for a very skill based occupation, and with glaring omissions, and the cults seem a bit weak and misdesigned...

It's almost as if they didn't understand or appreciate the breadth of skills and abilities necessary for hunting (or herding, frankly).  Or that they felt that the act of hunting encroaches on warfare, so why not default to the Warrior profession?

RQG is definitely a celebration of the Storm-Earth/Warrior-Farmer/Monsoon-Harvest trope.

!i!

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48 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Where is 'Sleep Back to Life' available?

Heroquest (the game of that name), AFAIK in Sartar Companion.

I don't know that RQ has ever had any rules for it; it may be a Heroquest (the adventuring activity) reward... maybe it'll be in the GM's Sourcebook (I'm guessing that one will be early next year, though I haven't given up hope on late this year).

 

 

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21 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

(BTW, does anyone understand what it means when the cult description says that Odayla is frequently worshipped as a sub-cult of Orlanth? I mean sure, I can see an Odayla sub-cult, but it's not in the rulebook, and surely you don't get the full set of Rune Spells that way? If you could just get everything Odayla gets anyway by subcult initiation that doesn't really cost you anything, why wouldn't you, and wouldn't this just supercede the regular Odayla cult completely?) 

My hypothesis is that sub-cult Odayla is basically a fancy bear statue in temples of Orlanth which lets you learn Bear's Strength. This blurs the line between associate cults and sub-cults. Also may be worth noting that Bearwalkers aren't required to have a mastered ranged weapon skill—they can become Rune Lords with just a melee weapon and four other cult skills, which further positions Foundchild as the "Hunter" cult and Odayla as the "Bear stuff" cult in my mind.

While not supported by text, in my Glorantha one of the advantages of Odayla is its permissive attitude toward shamanism. I came to this conclusion due to his relationship with Daka Fal as associated cults regarding ancestor worship. A shaman might not be able to become a Bearwalker (I haven't decided yet), but they could be an Odayla initiate and learn shamanism, whether through their family's Daka Fal cult, the Kolating tradition, or somewhere else. And, if they're able to become an Orlanth initiate also (all among associated cults!) perhaps you can fly and rain lightning on foes, and also have a fetch and cool shaman stuff.

All of which doesn't exactly make Odayla the cool part, but it does make him sort of the glue keeping everything together.

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12 minutes ago, Crel said:

While not supported by text, in my Glorantha one of the advantages of Odayla is its permissive attitude toward shamanism. I came to this conclusion due to his relationship with Daka Fal as associated cults regarding ancestor worship.

Definitely - this probably holds true about Yinkin as well (and note how Kyger Litor, another Daka Fal Associated Cult, also has Shaman-Priestesses).

I'm a bit confused about to what extent theistic initiation and being a shaman conflicts - the rules say "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers", but then, this isn't actually in any cult description as far as I can tell. One reading is that "many" here just means "several" and that we will get them at a later point, while another reading would say that this limitation is the default and only cults that explicitly or implicitly suggest otherwise allow it.

"Wait for the Cults book", I guess? 🙂

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6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

 the rules say "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers", but then, this isn't actually in any cult description as far as I can tell. 

 

Yup and of course some Spirit cults may be allied to more traditional cults. I can see major restrictions on Sorcery ...but the line between shaminism and the divine gets really blured.

As you say, I guess the Cults book or the GM guide may clear this up.  

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