The Problem Rune Spells (and a quick-fix for most)

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, gochie said:

Although I'm also going to nerf Sword Trance to a straight double % like Arrow Trance. 

That would work better.

[Darius West]

1 minute ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Because players want to be heroic.  Frankly, the "smart thing" is to be a farmer and let others die in battle. 

There are no heroic tales and myths of brave St. George shooting the dragon with a trebuchet.

So, if you want to be a hero, choose a more heroic archetype to follow.  Problem solved.  Also, this sort of thing isn't a problem for people who get illuminated; they join as many cults as they can con, learn all the spells they want, never follow cult strictures unless they can't avoid them, and never pay their tithes.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I'm not sure why anybody would be of the opinion that any boosting works for piercing defenses, but only some boosting works to defend from piercing? That seems inconsistent?

Not at all. Once the spell has been cast, the boosting MP are gone. They have no further effect.

[Dissolv]

38 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For a cult that prides itself on swordplay and honorable face to face duels, Sever Spirit makes absolutely no effing sense.  And it's ridiculously overpowered.  Our group tends to ignore or even ban it.

p.s. always cast disruption first to test for Reflection.

I respectfully disagree.   Balance is not a great concept for a paper and pencil RPG -- that's really more for WoW, where there is competition for a group or a raid or such.   In this case I am talking about what you are referring to implicitly.  PC character inter-deity balance with regards to combat.   One player chooses Storm Bull, one chooses Humakt -- there are your front line fighters.  One chooses Lhankor Mhy, another Issaries, and the last goes with Zola Fel.   The last three are not really seriously in the running for "combat balance".   The Storm Bull is rather specialized and frankly may rely on the others in the party just as much as any Rune magic that he may get. 

The game is not 100% combat.  The opponents are not always defeatable with swords.  What happens if you wind up being rivals at court with a powerful Ernalda Priestess?  Is the Humakt going to chop off her head?  More likely he will twiddle his thumbs or be shunted around from bad situation to bad situation as the rival manipulates the situation using his honor as leverage.  The Storm Bull will just belch and laugh at her, while the Lhankhor Mhy and Issaries follower get down to brass tacks to "defeat" her.  I assume the Zola Fel player is a super experienced role player, but you never know what players will go for. 

The other type of balance is of course, PC's versus their adversaries. There is no problem there in RQ:G, because both PC's and NPC's follow the same rules.  Humakt can easily be portrayed as the preeminent war god, because he actually is....but:

Yanafal Tarnils -- wham, the bad guys now use all the same spells as Humakt

Thanatar -- nice head full of Rune spells you've got there, will go fine with the other three hanging right here.

Issaries -- Spell trading has gone pretty well this season.  I managed to keep this as a profit -- ZAPPOW!

Humakit -- an honorable opponent perhaps, but he will end you.

Not to mention spells that have similar net effect as Sever Spirit.  Madness and Mindblast take a person out of combat, with the coup de grace needing to be applied manually.  6 to 10 points of Lightning is a lot more expensive than a Sever Spirit, but 10d6 is just as much a death sentence as Sever Spirit, and will punch right through any normal magical defense. 

So there isn't an imbalance of PC's vs. NPC's.  None at all.  The complaint here seems to be that all deities who have a history of conflict should be "balanced" somehow.  I don't think that they should be, but I'm not hearing the tales of woe of the high level PC Humkati who croaked.  Are we being too easy on the players I wonder?  No resurrections is an extremely big deal in a campaign with Call of Cthulhu level seriousness.  But it is a joke if the GM always finds a way out for the PC's.  The jeopardy should be real

Glorantha combat is very much three dimensional.  Physical combat with swords and such is a big part of it, but the masters of their craft use a ton of magic to enhance their abilities, degrade their opponent's, or just resort to taking the opponent out of the combat entirely, without having to actually go through the hassle of fighting them.  Sever Spirit is the most direct, but hardly the only example of that type of "combat removal".   And I would once again argue that Humakti are likely magnets for that type of spell, not to mention poison darts, bolts, etc.  It should be a rough road to be a Humakt worshiper, and the powers they sling around are both the reason for, and consolation from those problems. 

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For a cult that prides itself on swordplay and honorable face to face duels, Sever Spirit makes absolutely no effing sense.  And it's ridiculously overpowered.  Our group tends to ignore or even ban it.

p.s. always cast disruption first to test for Reflection.

Ummm ...  because Death?

Sword skill, sure; but because the Sword *IS* the Death-rune, and it's for killing -- not fancy "swordplay."

Sever Spirit is, arguably, even more a central "sacred" spell for Humakt than Sword Trance.  My POW v Your POW...  and I say: DIE.

 

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

So, if you want to be a hero, choose a more heroic archetype to follow. 

It's not about being a hero, it's about playing a fantasy. Glorantha has wolfbrothers and Odayla bearwalkers. That sounds like a pretty cool fantasy archetype to play... until you realize you can only transform with very expensive spells on a single day of the week for only an hour. It would be very hard for you to argue that this won't lead to disappointment with players -- I know it did disappoint me when I wanted to play an Odayla shapeshifter, and figured it's not worth it because I will very rarely shapeshift and it's not going to be very satisfying even when I do. This has nothing to do with "balance" or the existence of Humakti or whatever... but it does salt the wound a bit more when you do think about it.

1 hour ago, Dissolv said:

The game is not 100% combat.  The opponents are not always defeatable with swords.  What happens if you wind up being rivals at court with a powerful Ernalda Priestess?  Is the Humakt going to chop off her head?

You're totally right, but I think a lot of people misunderstand what "balance" really is. It's not balance in terms of combat prowess, it's balance in terms of the subjective player feeling of being the star of a scene, making rolls to save the day, etc. The game is indeed not 100% combat, but a combat scene easily takes an hour with many many rolls, while the political scene at the Earth Temple might only take less than 20 minutes and require at most a couple rolls. In order to balance this, I try to have a few more rolls and a few extra political scenes, and I try to speed up combat so, hopefully, both take around 30 minutes and the Ernalda priestess feels as important as the Humakti. It's very easy to do in HeroQuest (one might say that it was designed to do this). It's not so easy to do in RuneQuest because it was mostly meant to model combat originally. But yeah, that's the way to do it.

1 hour ago, Dissolv said:

And I would once again argue that Humakti are likely magnets for that type of spell, not to mention poison darts, bolts, etc.  It should be a rough road to be a Humakt worshiper, and the powers they sling around are both the reason for, and consolation from those problems. 

I'd love to hear more examples of tactics to use against Humakti (and other bad-asses), especially when it comes to making sure the GM isn't coming down to hard and ending up frustrating the Humakti player (one good tactic I've read, which was actually maybe from you, was to stretch out combat past the 15min mark, by having the NPCs retreat and hunker down in some other place where they have tactical advantage). I get the feeling that one alternative way to go is to let the players use all kinds of awesome/overpowered spells all they want, but to deal with short term repercussions like enemies seeking revenge soon enough that they don't have much time to recharge their Rune Points.

Edited February 22, 2020 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

11 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

a combat scene easily takes an hour with many many rolls

...of course it might also be 2 minutes with one Sever Spirit roll   (in some way, that over-powered spell does bring more balance and lets other non-combatants shine in subsequent scenes!)

Edited February 22, 2020 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

my main issue on divine spell is not the rules, points, effects but just a "self service" god powers.

I would try something like the God (the GM) accepts or not the use of the spell. It is not a spell own by the initiate (use sorcery or spirit magic for that), it is a spell loaned to the initiate.

There should be more situations where transform into a bear is acceptable (any "raging" situation) than kill someone just by will (fix an "unfixable" situation).

Edited February 22, 2020 by French Desperate WindChild

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Orlanth stole a Sword to kill Yelm.  He did not steal a spell.  Arkat was noted for an Unbreakable Sword, not an Unbeatable Spell.  If Sever Spirit is "sacred" to Humakt, cite an important myth featuring The spell.

Orlanth didn't steal a sword, he stole the Death rune, which just happened to look like a sword. Humakt's sword (and sometimes he is the sword) is Death. Thus, Humakt owns the Death rune, and has complete authority over it. He is not the god of swords, he is the god of Death.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Richard S.

[GAZZA]

5 hours ago, Dragon said:

So in a game with Mechanics specifically called Loyalty(x), you don't think that is a reference to mechanics.

"Especially in RQG where the other PCs are quite possibly in the same clan or tribe", and the Berserk likely has Loyalty(Sartar), Loyalty(Colymar), Loyalty(family), or similar; you don't take that as an indication that the Berserk should roll against his Loyalty Passion as a mechanic.

I mean, I don't see how that works for your interpretation at all:

• In a game that has specific Loyalty mechanics it would have been even easier for them to point out what these mean in the context of the spell. And they didn't...
• What about characters that don't have any Loyalty passions?

So no, I do not think that is a reference to mechanics. Of course you are free to run it that way should you so desire, but from your point that you allow PCs to metagame and get the Uroxi to waste his Berserker rage on already dead opponents, I really don't think you fundamentally disagree with me - you've just chosen the "run it the RQ2 way but defang it" rather than "this was a poorly described spell that left out the crucial bit from RQ2" way.

Again - it's a 2 point Rune spell that is barely better than Fanatacism. Barring errata, my gut tells me that it doesn't need the "attack friends" bit to be balanced. Someone else mentioned that there's no point to the CA ability to calm Uroxi without it - again, I disagree, because Berserker does impose several limitations that are, frankly, bad enough (inability to dodge, parry, use magic... put it this way, people cast Fanaticism on bad guys all the time to make them easier to hit. If Berserker could be cast on your foes, it would be a way better version of that tactic in many cases, even without the possibility that they'd turn on their friends).

FWIW though I suspect that this is just another cast of poor editing.

[GAZZA]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

No, actually... It doesn't.

What it does actually say is: "all but the strongest loyalties are forgotten."

Which is significantly different...

And not, in fact, defined. RAW, it is entirely fair to say that the Berserker simply no longer has access to his highest Loyalty passions.

Look, I played RQ2 back in the day as well. I'm well aware of what Berserker used to say. I'm pointing out that it doesn't say that anymore. Was it supposed it? Possibly - maybe even probably - but it doesn't. Should it? That is debatable... for 2 Rune points you get something that acts as Fanaticism with a bunch more disadvantages and some minor buffs (Countermagic good - though again it is unclear whether the Countermagic provided by Berserker would be blown off once it countered a 1-3 point spirit spell; Shield says it wouldn't, Berserker doesn't - immunity to exhaustion etc. very situational). Remember the context here is that you can probably get a much better boost from Sword or Axe Trance and not only can you still parry, but you can parry better - and both of those are only 1 point Rune spells.

I submit that it is, at the very least, on the table to consider that the RQ2 "Berserker turns around and whollops his mates" interpretation is unnecessary to make Berserker the sort of spell you don't use every day. Sometimes editing omissions - if that's what it was - can be fortuitous.

[GAZZA]

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Arrow Trance: You only use your bow for things you would normally use a bow for. Sword Trance: You only use your sword for things you would normally use a sword for.

Um. Generally speaking, spell or spell, would you always use a bow/sword/AnyObjectAtAllByDefinition for things you would normally use a bow/sword/AnyObjectAtAllByDefinition for? If that was the description of the spells I'd be scratching my head and wondering what you can do with a bow/sword/AnyObjectAtAllByDefinition without casting that spell.

More specifically though, the fact that Arrow Trance doesn't let you parry is a pretty big deal, in line with similar restrictions on similar spells (Fanaticism, Berserker). Axe Trance in RQ3 was gross enough when it didn't affect your Parry skill.

To be absolutely clear: I do not consider that the Trance effect would balance Axe/Sword trance even if it was in the rules. A "can't do anything not Axe/Sword related" trance effect would be better than the current version - that's a low bar to clear - but it is not presently there, and until appropriate errata is issued, it would not be my preferred way to balance the spells. YMMV of course.

[GAZZA]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Ummm ...  because Death?

Sword skill, sure; but because the Sword *IS* the Death-rune, and it's for killing -- not fancy "swordplay."

That is a reasonable argument that some form of Rune magic making Humakti good with swords should exist, but it does not translate to "so therefore they can spend a handful of magic points on a 1 point Rune spell". With a few simple find/replace instructions you can say that Urox did a pretty decent job of fighting Chaos in the God Time, but he doesn't get an I Win button - he gets Berserker, which is a 2 point Rune spell that is less powerful than Axe/Sword trance with a relatively small magic point investment and not only still lets you parry and dodge, it actually boosts your parry skill as well.

Plus, what you're implying there is that the Humakti should face some sort of penalty if they do use it for "fancy swordplay", but no such restriction appears on the spell. As written a couple of PC Humakti could bust out Sword Trances and fight to first blood to decide whether or not to go left or right at the T junction. And frankly, fair enough - "only use this when your god would" is a Hero Quest thing, the mundane world should have looser restrictions. (IMG, that's why Uroxi can cast Berserker even when faced with non-Chaotic foes - it may not work as well, because true Uroxi should be battling Chaos, not trolls/dwarfs/elves/whatever - but it still works, because this is the world of Time, not God Time. It might be a very different story if a Uroxi Heroquester busts out Berserker to kill the ferryman rather than pay the toll, or whatever).

Of course YGMV, but saying that players can only use Rune spells in "mythically appropriate situations" - which is, to be fair, a little further than you're saying here, but I hope you will accept it is not an entirely unfair extension - is essentially trying to use roleplaying considerations to balance mechanics - not an idea that has historically been very successful. Ideally the rules should work more or less shorn of context - you and I might prefer to play RQ in Glorantha (and if I seem at all negative, let me reiterate: I think a lot of things in RQG are awesome, and I wouldn't waste my time arguing if I didn't care about it; bad products earn my scorn at best, good but flawed products earn my desire to fix the flaws), but there's nothing innately wrong with lifting the RQG mechanics and using them to play in a home brewed world. In such a world Sword Trance might be given to pretty much all warrior gods and the Death god might be an assassin type that doesn't have Sword Trance at all. The rule of thumb ought to be, "How does this 1 point Rune spell compare to other 1 point Rune spells?" The designers know this - that's why they pretty much say that's the rule of thumb to use when designing new spells. So it comes down to either the designers think that Sword Trance/Axe Trance is roughly equivalent to, e.g., Heal Wound or a 1 point Lighting spell, or that they made a mistake here for some reason. Now, given that RQ3 (per Gods of Glorantha) included Axe Trance pretty much word for word as it is in RQG, my feelings lean toward the latter. (The general consensus in RQ3 was that Axe Trance was grossly overpowered. Even if you disagree with that in RQ3, the fact that it now boosts parry as well is, at the very least, a possibly unintended side effect).

Yes, this is that accursed "game balance". But pearl clutching "RQ doesn't care about game balance" objections aside, of course it does. If game balance didn't matter at all, why are some spells more expensive than others? There seems to be a few misconceptions here. Nobody is demanding that every character be the same, or even equally valuable - that's not what game balance means. Game balance just means that the game is internally consistent - and even there, it needn't be (and likely cannot be) perfect.

The idea that Humakti should be able to boost their sword skills in some fashion would still be true if Sword Trance, say, was a stackable Rune spell that boosted by 10% per point (or whatever). Nobody is saying that Humakti shouldn't be good at swords. We're noting instead that the specific spell is broken. Arguing that it isn't broken because of a God Time event that doesn't exactly name check Sword Trance is not particularly convincing.

Edited February 23, 2020 by GAZZA
Spelling correction.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm not sure why anybody would be of the opinion that any boosting works for piercing defenses, but only some boosting works to defend from piercing? That seems inconsistent?

The argument would be that defensive boosting isn't something that exists.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Arrow Trance: You only use your bow for things you would normally use a bow for. Sword Trance: You only use your sword for things you would normally use a sword for.

Like opening a can of peas... 

[Dragon]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

I mean, I don't see how that works for your interpretation at all:

• In a game that has specific Loyalty mechanics it would have been even easier for them to point out what these mean in the context of the spell. And they didn't...
• What about characters that don't have any Loyalty passions?

So no, I do not think that is a reference to mechanics. Of course you are free to run it that way should you so desire, but from your point that you allow PCs to metagame and get the Uroxi to waste his Berserker rage on already dead opponents, I really don't think you fundamentally disagree with me - you've just chosen the "run it the RQ2 way but defang it" rather than "this was a poorly described spell that left out the crucial bit from RQ2" way.

Again - it's a 2 point Rune spell that is barely better than Fanatacism. Barring errata, my gut tells me that it doesn't need the "attack friends" bit to be balanced. Someone else mentioned that there's no point to the CA ability to calm Uroxi without it - again, I disagree, because Berserker does impose several limitations that are, frankly, bad enough (inability to dodge, parry, use magic... put it this way, people cast Fanaticism on bad guys all the time to make them easier to hit. If Berserker could be cast on your foes, it would be a way better version of that tactic in many cases, even without the possibility that they'd turn on their friends).

FWIW though I suspect that this is just another cast of poor editing.

Oh, I agree that they should have been more explicit. I think they meant for some interpretation to be involved because some characters wouldn't have a Loyalty Passion. Could your Love(Wife) be the passion that pulls you out of Berserk when she steps between you and the Chalana Arroy healer? Maybe the Hate(Kinslayers) pulls you out of Berserk. There are lots of potential passions, not simply the one I used as an obvious example because of the specific word. Maybe the Eurmal should turn the blood around the battle field to ale using an Illusion spell so the BG Berserk drinks it all (Mythic reference from KoDP computer game) and passes out. The Myth is certainly on my side. Eurmal pulled Babeester Gor out of Berserk by turning the waist or neck deep blood of all the people she killed into Ale and she accidentally drank it.. Chalana Arroy pulled Storm Bull out of Berserk against Ragnaglar so he wouldn't be a kinslayer using her uniquely powerful Harmony (which is the basis for the Chalana Arroy Associated Cult ability from Storm Bull).

So, yes, "this was a poorly described spell that..." left out the mythic context used repeatedly in canon. Another context that supports me is Arrow Trance on p27 of Bestiary. Last sentence: "This is not a Berserker spell; the user knows who their friends and enemies are." Why use that sentence if the Berserker spell lets the user know who their friends and enemies are? Clearly Berserker does not let you know. 

Sorry for missing all that additional mythic stuff in the earlier posts, I was thinking they were a little long already and hadn't looked for additional context.

Yes, the spell is 2 points. I think the spell is good and it is much faster than Weapon Trance. It doubles your skill against Chaos, which by the way should be almost always the situation when a Storm Bull uses it. Partly, because otherwise he is just half-again as good, and partly because he isn't fighting Chaos! Babeester Gor probably the same. Zorak Zoran, well, Death Lords probably cast it just for kicks - maybe not often against trolls. Don't discount how good it is that the Berserk keeps going after the broo maims his arm, ignores the ghost that took him to 0 magic points, the spear taking him to 0 in the head. Sure, he may die when the spell ends and his CON returns to normal. But hopefully someone heals him at that moment. All those other things are what make the spell Fun!

If our party's Eurmal said he was casting an illusion that all the blood was Ale, I would definitely let that stop our Berserk because it matches Myth. But our Babeester Gor hasn't cast Berserk yet. She relies heavily on Slash and Shield spells. She did cast Summon Talosi and Command Cult Spirit tonight. No real combat this episode. The Talosi really helped find a solution.

[Rob Darvall]

29 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Like opening a can of peas... 

Very mushy peas, for topping pies presumably.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Dissolv said:

I respectfully disagree.   Balance is not a great concept for a paper and pencil RPG -- that's really more for WoW, where there is competition for a group or a raid or such.   In this case I am talking about what you are referring to implicitly.  PC character inter-deity balance with regards to combat.   One player chooses Storm Bull, one chooses Humakt -- there are your front line fighters.  One chooses Lhankor Mhy, another Issaries, and the last goes with Zola Fel.   The last three are not really seriously in the running for "combat balance".   The Storm Bull is rather specialized and frankly may rely on the others in the party just as much as any Rune magic that he may get. 

 

5 hours ago, Dissolv said:

Issaries -- Spell trading has gone pretty well this season.  I managed to keep this as a profit -- ZAPPOW

Yep... I was going to point this out... Don't discount that Issaries priest in combat! 

Or the Lhankor Mhy... Who's got 6 buff spells active, can disappear, and Tap your soul away in seconds... 

[Dragon]

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Um. Generally speaking, spell or spell, would you always use a bow/sword/AnyObjectAtAllByDefinition for things you would normally use a bow/sword/AnyObjectAtAllByDefinition for? If that was the description of the spells I'd be scratching my head and wondering what you can do with a bow/sword/AnyObjectAtAllByDefinition without casting that spell.

More specifically though, the fact that Arrow Trance doesn't let you parry is a pretty big deal, in line with similar restrictions on similar spells (Fanaticism, Berserker). Axe Trance in RQ3 was gross enough when it didn't affect your Parry skill.

To be absolutely clear: I do not consider that the Trance effect would balance Axe/Sword trance even if it was in the rules. A "can't do anything not Axe/Sword related" trance effect would be better than the current version - that's a low bar to clear - but it is not presently there, and until appropriate errata is issued, it would not be my preferred way to balance the spells. YMMV of course.

The grammar isn't that you only use your bow for bow things, it is that you ONLY use your bow. Nothing but your bow. You don't cast healing (except on your bow which specifically excludes yourself). You don't cast Dispel Magic. You don't First Aid. You don't cast Protection or Shield or Spirit Block. You don't fight in spirit combat after the shaman sends a ghost after you (you can shoot arrows at the ghost, but it isn't going to be effective). But you can cast Multimissile or Speedart (note elves rarely have Firearrow). You don't walk away, though you can walk to find a better angle for the target that slipped around a wall. Those are major drawbacks.

I remember my character in a party of four experienced Rune Lords and a Shaman fighting a huge Chaos demon. The demon noted that I must be under Arrow Trance after I put a few critical arrows into it past its 40 points of armor. I had doubled my 205 Bow skill, so my critical chance was 21% rounded up. The GM ruled it was so tall, I had little chance of hitting my friends. So it sent its Allied Spirit after me. Shut me down quite well. My Allied Spirit had to dispel me. I spent the remainder of the fight in spirit combat.

[Shiningbrow]

3 hours ago, GAZZA said:

I submit that it is, at the very least, on the table to consider that the RQ2 "Berserker turns around and whollops his mates" interpretation is unnecessary to make Berserker the sort of spell you don't use every day. Sometimes editing omissions - if that's what it was - can be fortuitous.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're using the word "friend" (or in this case, "mate") very loosely, and/or misunderstanding my position.

I'm not suggesting the Storm Bully will attack the Humakti and Orlanthis or Vingan (yes, I don't accept this sub-cult thing!) that have been together for the last 8 years on adventures.

I *am* suggesting that Legolas might have needed to steer clear of Gimli if he went Berserk in Moria... At that point, they were on the same team, but still with a lot of animosity, resentment, past (cultural) hates.

In RQ terms, if there's a Lunar in the party (e.g., Etyries merchant who's paying for bodyguards), they'd be a valid target. Maybe the "godless" sorceror who the Bully just can't get their head around (who's been playing for the last 6 weeks)... 

I think the re-writing of the description fluff was intentional, to match the general idea (blind rage).

Edited February 23, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

Yep... I was going to point this out... Don't discount that Issaries priest in combat! 

Or the Lhankor Mhy... Who's got 6 buff spells active, can disappear, and Tap your soul away in seconds... 

Not that they should have access to those sorcery spells to begin play...but they can get them soon enough. Our LM has Geomancy, Total Recall, and Logician for now. Mastery of Runes works out well for starting characters with those. But Steal Breath and Boon of Kargan Tor require additional mastery of Runes.

Note that those three spells are not used in combat, so the slow casting and the high MPs aren't that limiting. Great at knowledge gathering though.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

It's mind blowing that a Humakti can spend 3 RPs and kill any arbitrary big boss, while the poor Odayla initiate must spend a whooping 9 RPs just to be a bear for 15 minutes. Cults aren't supposed to be balanced, but that's something else!

Well... For 3 points you can take out the BBCG (Big Bad Chaotic Guy) ... IF it doesn't have up a Shield, and Countermagic, and Reflection, and doesn't have a similar Chaotic Feature, and doesn't have a ton of POW... and you can never be Resurrected... And you run the risk of not being able to cast any spells for a time (1day/week or 1 week per season)... (or eat vegetables...)

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Not that they should have access to those sorcery spells to begin play...but they can get them soon enough. Our LM has Geomancy, Total Recall, and Logician for now. Mastery of Runes works out well for starting characters with those. But Steal Breath and Boon of Kargan Tor require additional mastery of Runes.

Note that those three spells are not used in combat, so the slow casting and the high MPs aren't that limiting. Great at knowledge gathering though.

Well, when GaGoG comes out, there's the possibility that Sword Sages of LM will have those spells and Runes available at character creation... 

But, yeah, I wasn't meaning starting characters, but obviously more experienced PCs.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Like opening a can of peas... 

Also, shaving.

[Bill the barbarian]

58 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

Very mushy peas, for topping pies presumably.

did someone pea on yer pie?

Edited February 23, 2020 by Bill the barbarian