"Bad" acts versus "Chaos" acts

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So if ogres eat humans (or elves or trolls or whatever) it's o.k.?

It's the ciiiiircle of life!

[JustAnotherVingan]

30 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So if ogres eat humans (or elves or trolls or whatever) it's o.k.?

Debatably ogres might be considered a subspecies of human, but  otherwise, ok or not, it isn't cannibalism.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Literally herd men are not people, they are animals, that's the entire point of them.

Cannibalism is sort of like kinstrife? Eating people is Darkness activity; eating your own species is cannibalism (and thus Chaos).

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Cannibalism is sort of like kinstrife? Eating people is Darkness activity; eating your own species is cannibalism (and thus Chaos).

Except for trolls. And the Cannibal Cult. And the cult of Maran Gor. Probably a number of smaller peoples that have it as part of their culture without getting any chaos.

I’m not sure that it would be particularly chaotic even if a human accidentally consumed the wrong dwarven food tin. There’s no social threat here. And if the brute fact of eating human flesh was a strong source of chaos,  you can bet that chaos cults would make use of that and slip something extra into the sausages.

I would rather say that you get chaos when you break - especially if deliberately - a strong social taboo. And cannibalism is often, but not always, such a taboo in societies (and where it’s not, you can bet it’s ritualized).

[scott-martin]

23 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I am asking this both because of new players and because I'm interested in a Chaos mechanic thing I'm thinking about inspired by Fantasy Flight's Star Wars game's Force die.

That sounds interesting!

IMG the specific expressions of chaos are culturally determined although there is consensus among experts that certain broad fields of behavior are close to universally "dark side." Many things that trigger a Storm Bull straight off the prairie are really just the indoor plumbing of any civilized society, something new, exotic and superficially incomprehensible. Many communities do not have any kind of clean Sense Chaos diagnostic. They can only reliably recognize various shades of "bad" and that often simply means things they don't like, which conflict with their interests or are alien to their explanatory models.

So that's touchy feely. But with Greg, the cosmos still has a mechanical bias away from some phenomena and that's the objective "dark side" of chaos taint. Stuff Greg Hates actively reduce the amount of structure and energy in the universe, taking a once vibrant world and murdering some small but essential part of it. They weaken the bonds holding Fenris [not a gloranthan term] and other agents of the apocalypse at bay. "Bad" things simply shuffle the cosmic structure, building it up in places by tearing it down in others. We can measure the inputs and outputs and if you see less good stuff in the system (community, region, world) after a deed has been done, that was a chaotic thing to do. Ironically this often includes the Tap. Jraktal is one of the chaos gods.

The embodiments of these generally catabolic or "chaotabolic" processes are assigned the chaos rune. In the board games, this was a negative magic factor, something completely different from a high magic factor on the other team that would effectively cancel out opposed magic factors and leave the world back at status quo. Chaos is more than zero sum math. It's the eradication of the field that makes the "math" of community possible in the first place. Eaters eat and tear down but they also fertilize the ground for the next cycle. Eaters leave something behind. Death leaves something behind. Chaos, like "dark side," can't be fixed.

[soltakss]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:31 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

I would like to discuss what kinds of things are specifically acts of Chaos. You can do a lot of evil things and just be a bad person in Glorantha, but there are other things that are acts of Chaos.

What makes those things Chaos? Can we outline a guideline for the sort of things that are Chaos?

For me, it is about intent.

If you HeroQuest as Ragnaglar and rape Thed, then you are doing a Chaotic thing, as Ragnaglar did a chaotic thing. similarly, if you devour a book as Thanatar did, that is Chaotic, if you impregnate someone to breed a chaos monstrosity, that is Chaotic, as Ragnaglar did it.

However, Unicorns impregnate creatures and they give birth to unicorns, sometimes, so that is not, in itself, Chaotic. Eating a fellow human is not necessarily Chaotic. Rape is not necessarily Chaotic. Torture is not necessarily Chaotic.

The problem happens when you consider sympathetic magic, assuming that is the right word for this. If you eat someone, that is not necessarily Chaotic, but you are, in some way, emulating the eating of someone that is a Chaotic act. So, you are mirroring that act and, therefore, giving it mythical power. If you give a Chaotic event on the God Plane strength, then are you not performing a Chaotic act?

I would say that if you are emulating a non-Chaotic being who did a non-Chaotic thing during God Time, then you are not doing a Chaotic thing. If you emulate a Chaos act during God Time then you are doing a Chaotic thing.

The trick is to find a deity that did something in a non-Chaotic way and invoke that. 

The other trick is to prove that the non-Chaotic Deity actually did a Chaotic act, so anyone from now on who invokes/emulates that act is making a Chaotic act.

That is one of the things that makes HeroQuesting so fun.

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The other trick is to prove that the non-Chaotic Deity actually did a Chaotic act, so anyone from now on who invokes/emulates that act is making a Chaotic act.

If your people thinks something is not okay, they will have a myth about why it's not okay.

If your people thinks something is okay that might otherwise be in doubt, they will have a myth about why it's okay.

[Qizilbashwoman]

I'm still unclear about slavery and torture, given there are gods of Chaos.

Also, was it @Joerg who suggested Ompalam might be the Chaos face of Pamalt?

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm still unclear about slavery and torture, given there are gods of Chaos.

This really belongs on the other group but I'll answer it:

Ompalam's crime is not slavery but

Quote

This deity is the corruption of the powers of the Center, where all should be balanced and harmonious but instead are used by Ompalam for self-gain and tyrannical exploitation. He is recognized in Pamaltela as the god of absolute rule, who teaches that slavery is the natural way of life and that each person owes his freedom to the man above him. The God-learners classed Ompalam as the “God of degenerative administration, of evil centralization.”

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/o/ompalam/

That's he associated with slavery is incidental - he have easily been easily an evil bureaucrat.

A longer story would be Ompalam was identified by the Vadeli and as a result embodies their values.. He is associated with Chaos because the Vadeli had a headsup on what was going to happen to glorantha.

Ikadz is trickier because he has been described in two different ways.

1)  Ikadz is chaotic because he likes inflicting pain.  This is the version given in the Guide "He delights in the agony of others, and their prolonged torment makes him ecstatic." Guide p703

2) Ikadz inflicts pain to purge others of their guilt.  This is the version given in the Glorantha Sourcebook ."Ikadz the Torturer [...] and in some religions receives the souls of misdoers and cleanses them before they can join the other dead." GB p78

The second version could be reconciled with the first by having the Gods allow Ikadz to punish the souls of the wicked,  - in other words, Ikadz does not care about the state of the souls that he tortures, the Gods who permit the torture do.  This is supported "he cuts and burns the evil out of people so that they follow the ways of Ompalam." Guide p47

 So the gist is that Ikadz is chaotic because he revels in causing pain.  He doesn't care about whether the person he tortures is good or bad or whether they will repent of their error or confess or whatever.  Such considerations are not part of the God.  Others tolerate the existence of Ikadz and control the extent of pain that he and his cultists cause for their own purposes.  

[Jeff]

49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

This really belongs on the other group but I'll answer it:

Ompalam's crime is not slavery but

That's he associated with slavery is incidental - he have easily been easily an evil bureaucrat.

A longer story would be Ompalam was identified by the Vadeli and as a result embodies their values.. He is associated with Chaos because the Vadeli had a headsup on what was going to happen to glorantha.

Ikadz is trickier because he has been described in two different ways.

1)  Ikadz is chaotic because he likes inflicting pain.  This is the version given in the Guide "He delights in the agony of others, and their prolonged torment makes him ecstatic." Guide p703

2) Ikadz inflicts pain to purge others of their guilt.  This is the version given in the Glorantha Sourcebook ."Ikadz the Torturer [...] and in some religions receives the souls of misdoers and cleanses them before they can join the other dead." GB p78

The second version could be reconciled with the first by having the Gods allow Ikadz to punish the souls of the wicked,  - in other words, Ikadz does not care about the state of the souls that he tortures, the Gods who permit the torture do.  This is supported "he cuts and burns the evil out of people so that they follow the ways of Ompalam." Guide p47

 So the gist is that Ikadz is chaotic because he revels in causing pain.  He doesn't care about whether the person he tortures is good or bad or whether they will repent of their error or confess or whatever.  Such considerations are not part of the God.  Others tolerate the existence of Ikadz and control the extent of pain that he and his cultists cause for their own purposes.  

Ikadz is the flip side of Gerra/Deezola. They suffer (and are not Chaotic) - but he inflicts suffering on others. That being said some cultures do not consider him Chaotic - and at least one God Learner identified with with Death and Spirit, rather than Chaos. 

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

That being said some cultures do not consider him Chaotic - and at least one God Learner identified with with Death and Spirit, rather than Chaos. 

This is one of the problems when talking about Chaotic acts.

Some cultures believe that Ikadz is Chaotic and some don't. Some view Mallia as Chaotic and some don't. Some say that Urain is Chaotic and some don't.

One way around this is to say that a Deity with the Chaos Rune is Chaotic and those without the Chaos Rune are not Chaotic.

 

[smiorgan]

My humble take. Chaos is like porn: you recognize it when you see it.

 

[Grievous]

58 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

My humble take. Chaos is like porn: you recognize it when you see it.

 

You recognize it when the Storm Bull sees it. 😀

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, smiorgan said:

My humble take. Chaos is like porn: you recognize it when you see it.

 

However, again, there will be differences based upon the culture. 

Some porn is blatantly obvious. Other things people would argue about.

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, smiorgan said:

My humble take. Chaos is like porn: you recognize it when you see it.

for some people half of all women's feet are porn, this isn't really a good guideline for new players or how to classify when players are engaging in Chaos-adding acts dragging them to, like, the Unraveling side of the Force

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

This really belongs on the other group but I'll answer it:

which other group? like, general Glorantha discussions? Do you think this association as the Chaos (or at minimum REALLY BAD) face of Pamalt is accurate?

[Darius West]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:31 PM, lordabdul said:

What did Beat-Pot do? (I'm not aware of anything he did -- I just know he's a character in White Bear & Red Moon)

Beat-Pot was a slave in the Imperial Kitchens cooking Walkta-pies before becoming a leader of the slave rebellion.  During the rebellion it is on record that Beat-Pot did participate in atrocities including rape.  Ultimately Jar-Eel negotiated the end of the rebellion with Beat Pot and they became lovers, but once the terms were met, all the rebellious slaves except Beat Pot were executed, and he became Jar-eel's follower.

On 2/13/2020 at 9:54 AM, JustAnotherVingan said:

Cannibalism is the practice of eating the flesh of ones own species.

Only the case of the troll eating another troll can really be described as cannibalism and the petty exemptions are ones they would consider quite valid.

Totally agreed.  Plenty of people eat duck a l'orange, and newtling tails, and that isn't chaotic.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Darius West

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

Plenty of people eat duck a l'orange, and newtling tails, and that isn't chaotic.

it's a people rune eat people rune world out there

[scott-martin]

49 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's a people rune eat people rune world out there

Within Star Wars canon, what characterizes dark side deeds as mechanically distinct from naked self interest? Maybe that's a direction to pursue. 

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

This is one of the problems when talking about Chaotic acts.

Some cultures believe that Ikadz is Chaotic and some don't. Some view Mallia as Chaotic and some don't. Some say that Urain is Chaotic and some don't.

Maybe instead of treating that as a "problem", we could treat that as an opportunity for world-building and adventure seeds? Think about it: consider that Chaos is something that seeps into the world through societal taboos and cultural no-noes. This means that agents of Chaos will actually want to make sure more cultures around Glorantha become more "strict" and have more taboos, so that when people break them, this will give more chance for Chaos to come in. So agents of Chaos might be manipulating politics and cults to make societies more conservative and with less freedom, maybe even going so far as to make it all sound like these were divine laws to begin with (maybe heroquesting to that effect?). Although that's one aspect that does interestingly reflect modern real-world topics, there are other threads in this idea that end up in fairly awkward places, but I think with a bit of polish and care there's a potentially nice campaign theme somewhere there.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

So agents of Chaos might be manipulating politics and cults to make societies more conservative and with less freedom, maybe even going so far as to make it all sound like these were divine laws to begin with (maybe heroquesting to that effect?).

Seems that both Krarsht and Ompalam would pursue such.

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Within Star Wars canon, what characterizes dark side deeds as mechanically distinct from naked self interest? Maybe that's a direction to pursue. 

definitely not, because dark side is actions taken out of anger, pride, that kind of thing. Chaos isn't when you are killing someone out of fury: that's, like, kind of an ideal state for half the warrior cults in the world. Chaos is about unraveling reality, and only some of the Dark Side actions are about that.

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

for some people half of all women's feet are porn,

Would that be the left foot, or the right foot?

[metcalph]

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

which other group? like, general Glorantha discussions?

I was talking about the Glorantha forum seeing as we're getting into speculation about deep history and myth.

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Do you think this association as the Chaos (or at minimum REALLY BAD) face of Pamalt is accurate?

I've proposed something of the sort in the past.  I'm not sure how compatible it is with the current thinking.

[Kloster]

On 2/15/2020 at 1:34 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm still unclear about slavery and torture, given there are gods of Chaos.

Slavery is clearly not chaotic, as lot of non chaotic cults and areas have slaves. In fact, Hendriki are the only Orlanthi that forbid slavery, iirc.