"Bad" acts versus "Chaos" acts

[gochie]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Chaos is nonexistence, the Howling Void. Since Creation, its place is outside the Cosmos - outside of Glorantha. Within the cosmos, Chaos perverts and corrupts the powers and forms of things - this corruption inverses the meaning of the power. Fertility is corrupted by rape. Death by the undead. Change becomes mutated corruption and stasis becomes mindless servitude. Opposites are conjoined in ways where both are undermined. Through this, the fabric of reality is weakened and the cosmos returns to nonexistence. 

Feel free to share each rune's corrupted counterpart 😁

[davecake]

On 2/20/2020 at 2:32 AM, Darius West said:

  Once you know exactly you can get away with, you can dispense with all the other "laws".  I would say that Vadeli know exactly how far they can push any given rule without losing their immortality, as in, to within fractions of tolerance and every possible legal precedent.  They will do the very barest minimum required to produce the result they want.

Pretty close to how I imagine the Vadeli, yes. It’s not just pushing the rules, it’s doing innovative things to use them in ways not quite intended. For example they work around not being permitted to act as ‘rulers’ by building a social hierarchy around maritime law, which is why their rulers are Admirals. 

[davecake]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Chaos is nonexistence, the Howling Void. Since Creation, its place is outside the Cosmos - outside of Glorantha.

And those that see Chaos as not philosophically wrong, like the Lunars, see the idea of that potential, for new creation and for things to exist beyond the rules of this one, as a creative force that can transcend the limits of the world. But while it’s impossible to say if they are wrong at a philosophical level, at a practical level Chaos is horrific - it doesn’t belong in the world. 

 

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Within the cosmos, Chaos perverts and corrupts the powers and forms of things - this corruption inverses the meaning of the power. Fertility is corrupted by rape. Death by the undead. Change becomes mutated corruption and stasis becomes mindless servitude. Opposites are conjoined in ways where both are undermined. Through this, the fabric of reality is weakened and the cosmos returns to nonexistence. 

The Kabbalistic concept of the qlippoth is one that’s worth considering. The Sephiroth are often compared to the Runes (that metaphor is used for the art on page 149 of the Guide, for example, though obviously the two systems do not neatly correspond), the qlippoth are the unholy and impure corruptions of those primal powers of creation.

There is a sense in which the qlippoth sugggest an excess, a mold overfilled. ‘Evil’ can come about from not just things taken to extremes, but things that are lacking or out of balance - too little mercy, too little love, or when has appropriate love for family but does not balance it with love for mankind. Chaos is when things are at extremes or corrupted, not merely lacking. For the most part, Chaos is clearly unnatural, or it bubbles beneath the surface. 

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Glorion said:

Rape is chaotic because *Chaosium decided* to make rape chaotic, not for internal to Glorantha logical reasons. Logic has nothing to do with it. Whether the "video games make kids violent" argument is *objectively valid* if transferred to rape and fantasy games is also irrelevant. Chaosium is not taking any chances.

While probably true, there's no reason why it couldn't have been made internally consistent (if you're suggesting it's not). Which is basically to say, this thread is something that shouldn't have needed to exist, because it was properly addressed in canonical writings.

 

[Shiningbrow]

I had a revelation! As I was writing my above post, I was going to say that I don't see rape as Chaotic, only evil.

Until it dawned on.me that it's a corruption of the Fertility Rune (as well as the Man Rune).

I'm still not getting why murder gets a free pass, let alone genocide! (And yet, some think siccing disease spirits on your enemy is....)

[gochie]

27 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I had a revelation! As I was writing my above post, I was going to say that I don't see rape as Chaotic, only evil.

Until it dawned on.me that it's a corruption of the Fertility Rune (as well as the Man Rune).

I'm still not getting why murder gets a free pass, let alone genocide! (And yet, some think siccing disease spirits on your enemy is....)

I guess they're saying death/murder is natural somehow, and undeath is the corrupted counterpart?

I don't know... I feel as though natural death would be the death rune, and murder would be chaotic if we followed Jeff's logic. 

[Lordabdul]

35 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm still not getting why murder gets a free pass

AFAICT it depends on the culture. For instance, kinstrife doesn't get a free pass in Orlanthi society, and the Guide explicitly says that it's one way to let Chaos into the world.

[Glorion]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

While probably true, there's no reason why it couldn't have been made internally consistent (if you're suggesting it's not). Which is basically to say, this thread is something that shouldn't have needed to exist, because it was properly addressed in canonical writings.

 

Yes indeed, and various posters here are doing their best to come up with internally consistent explanations for it. A worthy cause, I wish them all success. If canonical writings are not all internally consistent and downright perfect, I suspect that may not be the first time.

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

And those that see Chaos as not philosophically wrong, like the Lunars, see the idea of that potential, for new creation and for things to exist beyond the rules of this one, as a creative force that can transcend the limits of the world. But while it’s impossible to say if they are wrong at a philosophical level, at a practical level Chaos is horrific - it doesn’t belong in the world. 

In one way, they’re objectively right though - Chaos is necessary for the world, as demonstrated by the Chaosium. This is why Jeff’s description can’t be the whole story. 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

The Kabbalistic concept of the qlippoth is one that’s worth considering.

Beat me to it! The RPG Mage has the concept of Spheres, which are not entirely different from Runes. Each Sphere also has its qlippothic counterpart.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Rob Darvall]

22 hours ago, Glorion said:

.... Therefore, to hell with logical consistency or anything else...

One quibble here. Thed is the mother of Wakboth by Ragnaglar (yes I do use the Edwards essay). 
The mythology of their position IS internally consistent. Yes because Chaosium/Greg "made" it consistent at least (but also more than) for the reasons you state, but it is consistent.

Horrible acts by 21C liberal secular humanist standards do not have to carry the same moral weight in other cultures, and we are "playing the other" here, even if we are imposing our own veneer. Cannibalism (as enthusiasticly embraced by the player of our BG) has a role in the mythos BUT can slide into chaos. Rape starts as chaos and slides from there.

NB The Gore Hag and possibly Cacodemon feature in the BG's future.

18 hours ago, gochie said:

..., but murder is less evil than rape? Not sure you want to argue that. 

Yes I would argue that for certain degrees and types of murder. But not here as this is my safe space.

I acknowledge that I am inconsistent with what I will argue. Think lines and veils.

On 2/20/2020 at 5:04 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

i mean that's kind of the entire point of the thing. if you eat other humans, you're an ogre. 

Or one of the Gors with divine ritual as justification/shield. 

Both Ana and Maran Gor have legitimate and mythically neccessary places in the cosmology.

On 2/20/2020 at 8:15 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

... The Chaos Sun is probably the famine god, not Shargash...

Little happy dance. This kind of in depth thinking is why I come back here (OK I'm a nerd)

On 2/20/2020 at 5:22 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

That's fair, but I wonder what, conceptually, separates wantonly butchering down innocent villagers while rampaging across the countryside high on bloodthirst not caring who you kill or for what reason (*ostensibly* Shargash and ZZ) from wantonly torturing just for the sheer heck of it (ostensibly Ikadz). 

Conceptually, what was done and by whom in the god time. Both Shargash and Zorak Zoran went on murder sprees to preserve the world from chaos.

"Who cares about a little collateral damage" IIRC.

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

The Kabbalistic concept of the qlippoth is one that’s worth considering.

To a significant extent, the Chaos Gods are each the representations of a corrupted rune. In some cases, it's patently obvious, like how Pocharngo is Chaotic Movement, unbridled change. One could probably sit around a do a mapping, but I'm not sure how productive it would be, and several might be stretches.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

(as well as the Man Rune)

it's a Person Rune, not a Male Rune

7 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Both Shargash and Zorak Zoran went on murder sprees to preserve the world from chaos.

True genocide would be Chaotic, in my opinion, as a perversion of Death. We don't often see this kind of activity: people aren't usually planning to annihilate all aldryami nor have the means. But I think of things like the Moonburn as being a feature of the Chaos side of the Lunar Empire for sure.

Shargash is not genocidal, he's the killing fire that burns the old to fertilise the earth. We've long discussed his likely role as a slash-and-burn agricultural god early on although that has been long eclipsed by more sophisticated measures.

I suspect ZZ has a similar kind of function. Not as farmer, but as a killer in the pantheon. And certainly in the Godtime he like Shargash did kill to save the world.

[Glorion]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's a Person Rune, not a Male Rune

True genocide would be Chaotic, in my opinion, as a perversion of Death. We don't often see this kind of activity: people aren't usually planning to annihilate all aldryami nor have the means. But I think of things like the Moonburn as being a feature of the Chaos side of the Lunar Empire for sure.

Shargash is not genocidal, he's the killing fire that burns the old to fertilise the earth. We've long discussed his likely role as a slash-and-burn agricultural god early on although that has been long eclipsed by more sophisticated measures.

I suspect ZZ has a similar kind of function. Not as farmer, but as a killer in the pantheon. And certainly in the Godtime he like Shargash did kill to save the world.

Be it noted that Argrath dropping the Moon on Peloria was the single most genocidal act in Gloranthan history since the sinking of Slontos etc., which may have killed as many or even more--or maybe not. Frankly, genocide is a common Glorantha practice, blessed by many gods as the proper thing to do with evil people, or for that matter people with evil leaders. Remember, unless someone is devoured by chaos the soul is still around, and likely to be reincarnated or go to the appropriate heaven or hell. So not such a bad thing really.

 

[gochie]

22 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Be it noted that Argrath dropping the Moon on Peloria was the single most genocidal act in Gloranthan history since the sinking of Slontos etc., which may have killed as many or even more--or maybe not. Frankly, genocide is a common Glorantha practice, blessed by many gods as the proper thing to do with evil people, or for that matter people with evil leaders. Remember, unless someone is devoured by chaos the soul is still around, and likely to be reincarnated or go to the appropriate heaven or hell. So not such a bad thing really.

 

Ohhh that's a good point...

Maybe the chaotic counterpart to the Death rune is the complete obliteration of the soul. 

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's a Person Rune, not a Male Rune

Don't get on my arse about it... Talk to Chaosium!

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Glorion said:

Be it noted that Argrath dropping the Moon on Peloria was the single most genocidal act in Gloranthan history since the sinking of Slontos etc., which may have killed as many or even more--or maybe not. Frankly, genocide is a common Glorantha practice, blessed by many gods as the proper thing to do with evil people, or for that matter people with evil leaders. Remember, unless someone is devoured by chaos the soul is still around, and likely to be reincarnated or go to the appropriate heaven or hell. So not such a bad thing really.

 

Genocide isn't even about evil... It's about hate. Trolls/elves for example.

[Glorion]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Genocide isn't even about evil... It's about hate. Trolls/elves for example.

And dwarves. All the elder races except for the trolls want to wipe out all the other elder races. And the only reason the trolls don't is that elves are tasty and dwarves get you high. BTW, what Argrath did to Peloria is the ultimate proof that Greg's statements at several Cons back in the '90s that in fact, almost all Chaosium publications are propaganda from the Orlanthi POV, and in fact the Lunars are the good guys and the Orlanthi are the bad guys, is true. I think official Lunar doctrine is that when White Moon time comes, all those souls the Crimson Bat devoured will get disgorged again and live happy lives forever after, like everyone else, and that meanwhile they get to be part of the beautiful Bat. At least that's what my Natha priestess thinks. There'll be pie in the sky by and bye...

Edited February 22, 2020 by Glorion

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Don't get on my arse about it... Talk to Chaosium!

 

I was responding to the bit about how you seemed to suggest rape is a corruption of masculinity, this is a misunderstanding of the Man Rune, I was pointing out that Man here means "Person" not "Dude"

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I was responding to the bit about how you seemed to suggest rape is a corruption of masculinity, this is a misunderstanding of the Man Rune, I was pointing out that Man here means "Person" not "Dude"

Noooo...  I was referring to the the idea that it is person, as well as community, harmony, mutual respect.... And thus, rape is a corruption of all those things.

[gochie]

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Noooo...  I was referring to the the idea that it is person, as well as community, harmony, mutual respect.... And thus, rape is a corruption of all those things.

Yeah I understood that you meant "civilization". Like rape is a primal, completely uncivilized, and society-corrupting act. 

This said, tons of animals/beasts rape in real life... So yeah. Still not convinced it's chaos only. 

[Shiningbrow]

3 minutes ago, gochie said:

Yeah I understood that you meant "civilization". Like rape is a primal, completely uncivilized, and society-corrupting act. 

This said, tons of animals/beasts rape in real life... So yeah. Still not convinced it's chaos only. 

But animals don't have "civilisation" (I thought of that after I posted). They have Beast. So, just like murder doesn't go against the Person Rune, neither does that rape go against the Beast Rune... (Unless you've sanitised Glorantha)

[soltakss]

On 2/21/2020 at 2:34 AM, Shiningbrow said:

I had a revelation! As I was writing my above post, I was going to say that I don't see rape as Chaotic, only evil.

Until it dawned on.me that it's a corruption of the Fertility Rune (as well as the Man Rune).

Broos have the Beast Rune, not the Man Rune. 

[Darius West]

On 2/20/2020 at 7:24 PM, Glorion said:

Rape is chaotic, whereas other horrible crimes are not chaotic, for a very simple reason. 

Umm.. I thought rape was a chaotic act because Thed is the goddess of rape, and also a major chaos deity, whose rape helped bring chaos into the world.  Anyone who commits a rape is therefore aiding Thed and Chaos (remembering of course that slaves are non-people, and their consent is thus immaterial, but then, enslaving too is a Chaotic act for which Ompalam is the chaos deity).

Edited February 22, 2020 by Darius West

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Broos have the Beast Rune, not the Man Rune. 

Ummm.   I'm not seeing the significance of this. It doesn't relate to my thought/post. (Unless you've read in something that I really wasn't suggesting)

Edit: given that brood have the Beast Rune, doesn't that mean their rape is not Chaotic? (Accepting that animals do...)

Edited February 22, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[gochie]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Umm.. I thought rape was a chaotic act because Thed is the goddess of rape, and also a major chaos deity, whose rape helped bring chaos into the world.  Anyone who commits a rape is therefore aiding Thed and Chaos (remembering of course that slaves are non-people, and their consent is thus immaterial, but then, enslaving too is a Chaotic act for which Ompalam is the chaos deity).

That's not a reason for rape being chaotic, that's just saying rape is chaotic because Chaosium said so. 

We're trying to figure out a logical reason for why rape is chaotic, whether Chaosium has one or not.