"Bad" acts versus "Chaos" acts

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, gochie said:

That's not a reason for rape being chaotic, that's just saying rape is chaotic because Chaosium said so. 

We're trying to figure out a logical reason for why rape is chaotic, whether Chaosium has one or not. 

Well, given that a great many antisocial behaviors are chaotic, with their own chaos deities in Glorantha, why wouldn't rape be chaotic?  If chaos comes about from breaking taboos, then that makes perfect sense.

[Glorion]

4 hours ago, gochie said:

That's not a reason for rape being chaotic, that's just saying rape is chaotic because Chaosium said so. 

We're trying to figure out a logical reason for why rape is chaotic, whether Chaosium has one or not. 

And I continue to wish you good luck in that enterprise. I think it's actually pretty logical really, but there are more important things than logic. (Speaking as somebody who, as you can see from other postings of mine on other subjects, thinks logic is pretty damn important.)

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Glorion

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm.   I'm not seeing the significance of this. It doesn't relate to my thought/post. (Unless you've read in something that I really wasn't suggesting)

It was confusing, as you seemed to be implying that rape was a product of the Man rune, but the species most associated with rape, Broos, are associated with the Beast rune.

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Edit: given that brood have the Beast Rune, doesn't that mean their rape is not Chaotic? (Accepting that animals do...)

To be honest, I have lost track of all the arguments.

[soltakss]

Duplicate Post

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by soltakss

[gochie]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Well, given that a great many antisocial behaviors are chaotic, with their own chaos deities in Glorantha, why wouldn't rape be chaotic?  If chaos comes about from breaking taboos, then that makes perfect sense.

The main point we're arguing here is that somehow murder/genocide isn't chaotic, but rape (or any other "chaotic" act) is. I'm trying to figure out the logic behind this so that I can apply it to some other "evil" acts that may or may not be officially defined as chaotic.

In other words, why is murder not "taboo" or antisocial behavior, but other acts are?

[gochie]

1 hour ago, Glorion said:

And I continue to wish you good luck in that enterprise. I think it's actually pretty logical really, but there are more important things than logic. (Speaking as somebody who, as you can see from other postings of mine on other subjects, thinks logic is pretty damn important.)

 

I disagree; Logic is everything when a player asks "why?" regarding a ruling or lore.

For example, if a player wants to torture an enemy for information that might save the lives of a dozen innocents, do I rule that that would be chaotic, or a legitimate act that some others might just consider "evil". My answer will need good reasoning or else players might just roll their eyes and lose all sense of immersion.

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, gochie said:

I disagree; Logic is everything when a player asks "why?" regarding a ruling or lore.

For example, if a player wants to torture an enemy for information that might save the lives of a dozen innocents, do I rule that that would be chaotic, or a legitimate act that some others might just consider "evil". My answer will need good reasoning or else players might just roll their eyes and lose all sense of immersion.

it's a pointless act, it doesn't work. there's no way to tell if they've told you the truth or whatever they think you want to hear so the pain stops

[gochie]

12 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's a pointless act, it doesn't work. there's no way to tell if they've told you the truth or whatever they think you want to hear so the pain stops

That's just... completely irrelevant to the point I was making; unless I am somehow misunderstanding your argument? I'm not wondering if torture works, I'm wondering if torture is chaotic, rather than just "evil (sometimes?)".

We're using rape as the main subject because Chaosium officially declared that it was always a chaotic act, and I'm trying to understand the reasoning for this so that I might apply it to other things (like torture, for example).

Another one is cannibalism. If it's always a chaotic act, what makes the act of eating an already-dead person for survival (imagine post plane crash in isolated mountains) chaotic? Heck, I don't even think that's evil!

[AndreJarosch]

13 minutes ago, gochie said:

Another one is cannibalism. If it's always a chaotic act, what makes the act of eating an already-dead person for survival (imagine post plane crash in isolated mountains) chaotic? Heck, I don't even think that's evil!

My approach:
If you eat a relative (like the Uz do), then it is ritually, and you just eat his mortal remains. His spirit/soul lives on (goes to the afterlife/is reborn, whatever). 
If you eat a dead person, because it is vital for survival, it is the same. 
If you eat a dead person (or even worse, a person you killed yourself just to be able to eat his body!), you damage his spirit/souls journey to the afterlife. 

[Rob Darvall]

8 hours ago, gochie said:

That's not a reason for rape being chaotic, that's just saying rape is chaotic because Chaosium said so. 

We're trying to figure out a logical reason for why rape is chaotic, whether Chaosium has one or not. 

By that line of reasoning there's no reason for Ernalda having Earth powers, or Orlanth any sky affinity. The Greater Darkness can be handwaved away.

It's ALL because Chaosium said so.

Chaos is part of Thed's nature just as Air is of Orlanth. Rape is part of Thed's nature*, just as Movement is of Orlanth. Remove one of those and they are no longer that god. This is the basis for the hero wars. Sedenya/Rufelza/whoever-she-is-this-wane trying to replace Orlanth's Air.

To say that the gods are what they are because Chaosium says so is both true, and useless.

The nature of the gods has to form the premise for the argument or else we're back to "it's just a game". Here the gods' natures are part of the rules that delineate the game. This argument singles out one god/rule for exclusion because of  (purported) disagreement with the outcome of that rule.

*And has been so for as long as I can remember playing.

[gochie]

8 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

By that line of reasoning there's no reason for Ernalda having Earth powers, or Orlanth any sky affinity. The Greater Darkness can be handwaved away.

It's ALL because Chaosium said so.

Chaos is part of Thed's nature just as Air is of Orlanth. Rape is part of Thed's nature*, just as Movement is of Orlanth. Remove one of those and they are no longer that god. This is the basis for the hero wars. Sedenya/Rufelza/whoever-she-is-this-wane trying to replace Orlanth's Air.

To say that the gods are what they are because Chaosium says so is both true, and useless.

The nature of the gods has to form the premise for the argument or else we're back to "it's just a game". Here the gods' natures are part of the rules that delineate the game. This argument singles out one god/rule for exclusion because of  (purported) disagreement with the outcome of that rule.

*And has been so for as long as I can remember playing.

Sure, the nature of the gods can be decided out of the blue by Chaosium. But even so, when you ask "why?" to many of the questions regarding them, their history, and lineage, there is usually a cohesive answer.

Also, I'm pretty sure the broo race used to be non-chaotic beastmen, and Thed was a Fertility goddess, pre chaos invasion. There must also be a reason for her transformation in the lore. 

Either way, having an equation/blanket logic for chaotic vs "kinda, sometimes bad" acts would be both useful and insightful.

[JustAnotherVingan]

2 minutes ago, gochie said:

Sure, the nature of the gods can be decided out of the blue by Chaosium. But even so, when you ask "why?" to many of the questions regarding them, their history, and lineage, there is usually a cohesive answer.

Also, I'm pretty sure the broo race used to be non-chaotic beastmen, and Thed was a Fertility goddess, pre chaos invasion. There must also be a reason for her transformation in the lore. 

Either way, having an equation/blanket logic for chaotic vs "kinda, sometimes bad" acts would be both useful and insightful.

There is a reason for her transformation.

Thed's rape by Ragnaglar and her demanding to be made the Goddess of Rape in restitution for that.

[Glorion]

5 hours ago, gochie said:

I disagree; Logic is everything when a player asks "why?" regarding a ruling or lore.

For example, if a player wants to torture an enemy for information that might save the lives of a dozen innocents, do I rule that that would be chaotic, or a legitimate act that some others might just consider "evil". My answer will need good reasoning or else players might just roll their eyes and lose all sense of immersion.

As to rape, I think players are perfectly capable of accepting the logic I've provided as to why their characters are not allowed to rape and will turn into broos if they do. Any that are not you should kick out of your game. Torture is evil, not chaotic, as far as I know. Ikadz is not a chaotic deity. In the current political atmosphere, fortunately, people will fully understand arbitrary prohibitions against their characters committing rape. That is not, unfortunately, the case with torture, or Jack Reacher and quite a few TV cops shows would not be on the air and Donald Trump would not be president.

[Glorion]

Just now, Glorion said:

As to rape, I think players are perfectly capable of accepting the logic I've provided as to why their characters are not allowed to rape and will turn into broos if they do. Any that are not you should kick out of your game. Torture is evil, not chaotic, as far as I know. Ikadz is not a chaotic deity. In the current political atmosphere, fortunately, people will fully understand arbitrary prohibitions against their characters committing rape. That is not, unfortunately, the case with torture, or Jack Reacher and quite a few TV cops shows would not be on the air and Donald Trump would not be president.

Different strokes for different folks. What I would do with players who want to torture prisoners is to let them know that if they do, their soul will acquire the touch of Ikadz, and that Humakhti NPC in the party is going to try to kill you, so you'd better run.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

It was confusing, as you seemed to be implying that rape was a product of the Man rune, but the species most associated with rape, Broos, are associated with the Beast rune.

To be honest, I have lost track of all the arguments.

OIC... Sorry.

No. @gochie wrote "This said, tons of animals/beasts rape in real life... So yeah. Still not convinced it's chaos only. "

So I was running with that idea with regards Beast Rune.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's a pointless act, it doesn't work. there's no way to tell if they've told you the truth or whatever they think you want to hear so the pain stops

Lhankor Mhy respectfully disagrees.

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Glorion said:

Ikadz is not a chaotic deity.

ikadz is a deity with a Chaos rune

[Lordabdul]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Lhankor Mhy respectfully disagrees.

Yeah but Lhankor Mhy doesn't need torture in the first place -- if anything, torturing wastes time, you can have the sage investigator just mind-read the prisoner or whatever right away.

Some time in my mid-thirties I stopped letting my players use torture as a shortcut to the truth. First, because it's gross, and I'm not running a game set in a FOX Network TV show. Second, I like to mess with my players. So in a game with SAN rules (like CoC or DG) you definitely need the strength of will (or lack of humanity, or both) to actually proceed with the torture. In RQ it may take the form of some POW roll, and will definitely have consequences on your Rune alignments. Frequently, because the PCs aren't expert torturers, the prisoner dies, and that worsens the SAN/Runes consequences. And, yeah, like @Qizilbashwoman says, I will most of the time give incomplete or partially false information. If the prisoner happens to be a clever bastard, it might be 100% wrong information in a way that sends the PCs into danger.

Edited February 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Ali the Helering]

Since the majority of games I have seen described fall within a Prax-Esrolia-Peloria crescent (ish) it is worth appreciating that there are other very good and pragmatic reasons to avoid rape. 

Babeester, Vinga, Gorgorma. 

Transforming into a broo may be the least of your troubles. 

[Glorion]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

ikadz is a deity with a Chaos rune

Are you sure? According to the fandom wiki, his runes are Death and Disorder. The Sourcebook mentions him as a deity of Darkness not Chaos (p. 78). I certainly have nothing against the idea, but I don't see it in the official writings.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Since the majority of games I have seen described fall within a Prax-Esrolia-Peloria crescent (ish) it is worth appreciating that there are other very good and pragmatic reasons to avoid rape. 

Babeester, Vinga, Gorgorma. 

Transforming into a broo may be the least of your troubles. 

On the other hand, to be fair, the fac there are 3 anti-rape deities does tend to suggest it is more of a problem than the typical write-up suggests.  Obviously not every rapist automatically develops chaos features (though I imagine certain foul sorts might fervently hope for such an outcome), or even a chaos taint, and we know Beat Pot Aelwrin was a rapist, and we know that Gunda the Guilty's mom was raped, and we know from the Dispatch of Fadabius that the Tarsh Exiles were inveterate rapists despite the number of Barbeester Gor worshippers in their midst.  For all we know the BBGs of the Tarsh Exiles actually participated in some rapes, as they are often quite psychotic, and the anti-rape rules might be interpreted to suggest that they should protect only Earth Cultists, not the semi-Chaotic females of the Lunar religion, many of whom carry a chaos taint from casting Chaos Gift.  Consider that the pre-edition of Gods of Gloranthat mentions that BBG lay members may "wrest (forcibly obtain), whatever comfort is possible from the camaraderie of their comrades".  That subtext is pretty rapey.  Obviously any rape empowers Thed at some level, and ultimately that is likely to mean more fertile Broos in the area which is bad for the local wildlife and livestock at the very least.

[Qizilbashwoman]

27 minutes ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, to be fair, the fac there are 3 anti-rape deities does tend to suggest it is more of a problem than the typical write-up suggests.  Obviously not every rapist automatically develops chaos features (though I imagine certain foul sorts might fervently hope for such an outcome), or even a chaos taint, and we know Beat Pot Aelwrin was a rapist, and we know that Gunda the Guilty's mom was raped, and we know from the Dispatch of Fadabius that the Tarsh Exiles were inveterate rapists despite the number of Barbeester Gor worshippers in their midst.  For all we know the BBGs of the Tarsh Exiles actually participated in some rapes, as they are often quite psychotic, and the anti-rape rules might be interpreted to suggest that they should protect only Earth Cultists, not the semi-Chaotic females of the Lunar religion, many of whom carry a chaos taint from casting Chaos Gift.  Consider that the pre-edition of Gods of Gloranthat mentions that BBG lay members may "wrest (forcibly obtain), whatever comfort is possible from the camaraderie of their comrades".  That subtext is pretty rapey.  Obviously any rape empowers Thed at some level, and ultimately that is likely to mean more fertile Broos in the area which is bad for the local wildlife and livestock at the very least.

Babeester was born to defend the Earth Goddesses from Chaos in the Darkness when everyone else was dead, so she's not exactly an "anti-rape" goddess.

[AndreJarosch]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Babeester was born to defend the Earth Goddesses from Chaos in the Darkness when everyone else was dead, so she's not exactly an "anti-rape" goddess.

But a defender of wronged women. 

[Glorion]

52 minutes ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, to be fair, the fac there are 3 anti-rape deities does tend to suggest it is more of a problem than the typical write-up suggests.  Obviously not every rapist automatically develops chaos features (though I imagine certain foul sorts might fervently hope for such an outcome), or even a chaos taint, and we know Beat Pot Aelwrin was a rapist, and we know that Gunda the Guilty's mom was raped, and we know from the Dispatch of Fadabius that the Tarsh Exiles were inveterate rapists despite the number of Barbeester Gor worshippers in their midst.  For all we know the BBGs of the Tarsh Exiles actually participated in some rapes, as they are often quite psychotic, and the anti-rape rules might be interpreted to suggest that they should protect only Earth Cultists, not the semi-Chaotic females of the Lunar religion, many of whom carry a chaos taint from casting Chaos Gift.  Consider that the pre-edition of Gods of Gloranthat mentions that BBG lay members may "wrest (forcibly obtain), whatever comfort is possible from the camaraderie of their comrades".  That subtext is pretty rapey.  Obviously any rape empowers Thed at some level, and ultimately that is likely to mean more fertile Broos in the area which is bad for the local wildlife and livestock at the very least.

The Dispatch of Fadabius goes all the way back to WF #3, before the concept of rape being chaotic was developed, and is after all Lunar propaganda to boot. I don't think we should assume its accuracy. As for Babeester Gor not being an anti-rape deity, in RQ3 BG had a specifically anti-rape spell. That line you refer to in something prepublication is likely going to disappear when GoG gets published I suspect. (at least it will if the editors are reading this thread!) Beatpot Aelwrin no doubt is Illuminated and is a Hero to boot. And raped a slavemaster in revenge after all, perhaps less inherently evil than other forms of rape, though no less chaotic. Lunars are willing to use chaos for the "greater good." And ultra-powerful Brithini sorcerors are peculiarly immune from all sorts of things.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Glorion

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah but Lhankor Mhy doesn't need torture in the first place -- if anything, torturing wastes time, you can have the sage investigator just mind-read the prisoner or whatever right away.

I haven't seen rules for how drugs, stress, pain, or even unconsciousness affect such spells, which I think is important.

So, if the LM isn't getting the required results (because the target is actively resisting), then other means could be used to lower that resistance or take the target's mind off it. 

Perhaps that's a question that should be raised? Do drugs, alcohol, (sleep? Sleep deprivation??) etc lower a person's resistance (e.g., on POW v POW rolls, Fast Talk/Orate rolls)