"Bad" acts versus "Chaos" acts

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps that's a question that should be raised? Do drugs, alcohol, (sleep? Sleep deprivation??) etc lower a person's resistance (e.g., on POW v POW rolls, Fast Talk/Orate rolls)

It seems completely reasonable that you could take temporary POW damage the same way you can to other characteristics.

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Babeester was born to defend the Earth Goddesses from Chaos in the Darkness when everyone else was dead, so she's not exactly an "anti-rape" goddess.

I quite agree.  BBG is often portrayed as taking bloody revenge on rapists of earth cult initiates however.  So the fact that she also likely rapes those very cultists herself, well, a little hypocritical perhaps?

16 hours ago, Glorion said:

The Dispatch of Fadabius goes all the way back to WF #3, before the concept of rape being chaotic was developed, and is after all Lunar propaganda to boot. I don't think we should assume its accuracy. As for Babeester Gor not being an anti-rape deity, in RQ3 BG had a specifically anti-rape spell. That line you refer to in something prepublication is likely going to disappear when GoG gets published I suspect. (at least it will if the editors are reading this thread!) Beatpot Aelwrin no doubt is Illuminated and is a Hero to boot. And raped a slavemaster in revenge after all, perhaps less inherently evil than other forms of rape, though no less chaotic. Lunars are willing to use chaos for the "greater good." And ultra-powerful Brithini sorcerors are peculiarly immune from all sorts of things.

On the contrary, all the themes in DoF are maintained in the histories, and while it doesn't feature as a document in KoDP, it doesn't contradict it either.  As to rape being Chaotic, well that has been in place since 1981 with Thed in Cults of Terror.

[Joerg]

 

On 2/21/2020 at 8:20 AM, Rob Darvall said:

Conceptually, what was done and by whom in the god time. Both Shargash and Zorak Zoran went on murder sprees to preserve the world from chaos.

Not to preserve it, really. Shargash destroyed just for the sake of destruction. The Dara Happans recognize the Dominion of Shargash aka the Greater Darkness, when Shargash destroyed everything (except for the few nests of survival) and then the Dominion of Kargzant (or Lightfore) aka the Gray Age when the shards of reality that had escaped Shargash and Chaos were pulled together and re-knit to the world that emerged at the Dawn.

On 2/21/2020 at 8:20 AM, Rob Darvall said:

"Who cares about a little collateral damage" IIRC.

Rather "Let's have some collateral damage for extra cruel fun." IMO Shargash was the Cruel God who brought down Antirius at the Hill of Gold.

 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's a Person Rune, not a Male Rune

And it is called the Man Rune. Personhood has been assigned legally to financial constructs which fail any test that define a Man Rune.

 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

True genocide would be Chaotic, in my opinion, as a perversion of Death.

I haven't seen any Humakti criticism of the Dragonkill calling it chaotic. Neither any Storm Bull condemnation.

 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

We don't often see this kind of activity: people aren't usually planning to annihilate all aldryami nor have the means. But I think of things like the Moonburn as being a feature of the Chaos side of the Lunar Empire for sure.

The burning of Vralos using the inspiration of the Abiding Book is of a similar measure. The Moonburn was actually "humane" as it allowed some evacuation, being a deliberately slow process, unlike the Dresden-style concentric firebombing the Char-un or the God Learners inflicted.

 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Shargash is not genocidal, he's the killing fire that burns the old to fertilise the earth.

Shargash of the Greater Darkness is Shadzor, the aspect of burnt earth retreat - rather than letting Chaos destroy everything, he and his minions pre-emptively did the "service".

 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

We've long discussed his likely role as a slash-and-burn agricultural god early on although that has been long eclipsed by more sophisticated measures.

His green aspect appears to have been suppressed. On Trowjang, Tolat is a bringer of fertility. In Alkoth, he appears to be a master of fertility wives only.

The Green City may have seen slash-and-burn agriculture prior to the arrival of the Oslir River.

That ended disastrously - there is the rather hilarious story where Shargash and his drummers march into the advancing river front and get washed away.

 

 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

I suspect ZZ has a similar kind of function.

Shadzor probably is a shared aspect of Shargash and Zorak Zoran.

 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Not as farmer, but as a killer in the pantheon. And certainly in the Godtime he like Shargash did kill to save the world.

Shargash/Shadzor killed and smashed to destroy the world. Zorak Zoran just reveled in the destruction of his foes and rivals.

 

On 2/22/2020 at 2:42 AM, Glorion said:

Be it noted that Argrath dropping the Moon on Peloria was the single most genocidal act in Gloranthan history since the sinking of Slontos etc., which may have killed as many or even more--or maybe not.

The flooding of the coastal lands as a consequence of the Maelstrom being plugged by the ice floe will have obliterated a much greater population by the time the moon comes down.

The Mostali plans for Umathela and Tarien will obliterate the dwerulan species and destroy the breeding grounds of the Malasp species off Jrustela. Whatever humans and aldryami don't manage to evacuate Somelz will in all likelihood be reprocessed, and the trolls of the Tarmo may find their mountains crumbling away under themselves.

The Lunar fallout over Peloria will hit at best the Silver Shadow, which is vastly exaggerated compared to the circumference of the object in the sky, even if you allow for an almost spherical hole beneath the Crater up to thrice the diameter of the crater opening.

And it will be dragons tearing the red moon apart in its utuma. It will be a moment of collective ascension (if successul) or otherwise obliteration.

On 2/22/2020 at 2:42 AM, Glorion said:

Frankly, genocide is a common Glorantha practice, blessed by many gods as the proper thing to do with evil people, or for that matter people with evil leaders. Remember, unless someone is devoured by chaos the soul is still around, and likely to be reincarnated or go to the appropriate heaven or hell. So not such a bad thing really.

While we know about Lascerdan ghosts rising in Umathela in the dying throes of the God Learner cities there, we have no idea where the majority of their spirits went. The final transformations of the Gold Wheel Dancers are weird, too,

The 1042 ascension of the draconic leadership may have been successful in removing their souls from the cycle of rebirth.

 

Genocide doesn't have to mean total annihilation of an ethnicity or species, any massive threat accompanied by loss of life is an (ongoing) genocide.

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

On 2/12/2020 at 2:31 AM, lordabdul said:

What did Beat-Pot do? (I'm not aware of anything he did -- I just know he's a character in White Bear & Red Moon)

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/12-the-slave-revolt/

On 2/12/2020 at 5:23 PM, lordabdul said:

Mmmmh... Storm Bull cultists have Sense Chaos which tells them that there's a Chaotic thing close by... as in: something tainted by Chaos. That probably translates, in game terms, as something with a Chaotic Feature, right? I don't think Storm Bullies would sense if someone had committed a Chaotic act? ...

I mean, otherwise, there would be a Storm Bull on every trial committee, who gets to sniff around the accused, no debate or deliberation needed... 

They need to make a roll to sense chaos. And personally I'd apply penalties to the roll for someone who has recently committed one borderline chaotic act. Maybe a chaotic taint needs a new Chaos rune rating, which you'd use as an augment on any Sense Chaos attempt (so that at low level, it is more likely to reduce than increase).

Replying to early posts, not read the entire thread yet so apologies for any duplication.

On 2/20/2020 at 3:05 AM, gochie said:

...killing someone in a battle is fine, being a psychopathic serial killer is chaotic.

I used to play a psychopathic trickster serial killer, and I disagree.

On 2/20/2020 at 12:30 PM, gochie said:

...murder is less evil than rape? Not sure you want to argue that. 

I'd argue that any day of the week, in the context of a fantasy game. Wouldn't touch it with someone else's 10' pole in the real world. In any case, this is about chaos, not evil.

Edited February 24, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

They need to make a roll to sense chaos. And personally I'd apply penalties to the roll for someone who has recently committed one borderline chaotic act. Maybe a chaotic taint needs a new Chaos rune rating, which you'd use as an augment on any Sense Chaos attempt (so that at low level, it is more likely to reduce than increase).

Or you could roll Sense Chaos as an opposed roll on the Resistance Table against "100% minus Chaos Rune rating". So someone who committed only a few Chaotic acts so far would only have a few percents, so the Uroxi has to roll against, say, 97% on the Resistance Table. The question remains, however, which acts give you a Chaos Rune rating, and how fast do they increase that rating.

Edited February 24, 2020 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Or you could roll Sense Chaos as an opposed roll on the Resistance Table against "100% minus Chaos Rune rating". So someone who committed only a few Chaotic acts so far would only have a few percents, so the Uroxi has to roll against, say, 97% on the Resistance Table. The question remains, however, which acts give you a Chaos Rune rating, and how fast do they increase that rating.

The resistance roll is for characteristics and other values at that scale, it really doesn't work for percent-versus-percent.

So if the Bully has 85% Sense Chaos, and the perp only has 5% Chaos Rune rating, the Bully has a 5% chance. But from that point, every 1% increase in Chaos rating increases the detection by 5%, until at 15% the Bully has a 50% chance. That makes no sense to me as a game mechanic.

Edited February 24, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Glorion]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

I quite agree.  BBG is often portrayed as taking bloody revenge on rapists of earth cult initiates however.  So the fact that she also likely rapes those very cultists herself, well, a little hypocritical perhaps?

On the contrary, all the themes in DoF are maintained in the histories, and while it doesn't feature as a document in KoDP, it doesn't contradict it either.  As to rape being Chaotic, well that has been in place since 1981 with Thed in Cults of Terror.

Overall no doubt it's accurate, but it is also Lunar propaganda, with stuff tossed in to make the Orlanthi look bad, rape being the perfect example. As for BBG as implied rapists, that I am sure was a first draft error to be corrected in the published official version (Jeff please note).

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The resistance roll is for characteristics and other values at that scale, it really doesn't work for percent-versus-percent.

Oh you're right -- well some other kind of opposed roll I guess.

[gochie]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'd argue that any day of the week, in the context of a fantasy game. Wouldn't touch it with someone else's 10' pole in the real world. In any case, this is about chaos, not evil.

Well now that's just being PC for the sake of being PC. 

 

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The resistance roll is for characteristics and other values at that scale, it really doesn't work for percent-versus-percent.

 

I don't know, we use it and it works for many things. Divide the percentage by 5 and pit those number vs each other. 

IE. Hide vs sneak, tracking vs tracking, faster spirit combat, etc. 

In the example's case, the target has 5% chaos rune and the Uroxi has 85% sense chaos, you would do 85% vs 95% (or 17 vs 19) for a 40% success chance. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by gochie

[PhilHibbs]

55 minutes ago, gochie said:

Well now that's just being PC for the sake of being PC. 

And that's just insulting for the sake of insulting.

[Glorion]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/12-the-slave-revolt/

..

The high priestess of the "Frenzied Ground," where "groups of armed slaves are often forced to fight to the death to celebrate Hon-eel." He should have just killed her, by raping her he lowered himself to her level.

[davecake]

On 2/24/2020 at 2:11 AM, Glorion said:

On 2/23/2020 at 3:18 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

ikadz is a deity with a Chaos rune

Are you sure? According to the fandom wiki, his runes are Death and Disorder. The Sourcebook mentions him as a deity of Darkness not Chaos (p. 78). I certainly have nothing against the idea, but I don't see it in the official writings.

The Guide to Glorantha. Like Mallia, it may be possible to worship Ikadz in a non-Chaotic manner, but the association is certainly there

On 2/24/2020 at 3:57 AM, Glorion said:

As for Babeester Gor not being an anti-rape deity, in RQ3 BG had a specifically anti-rape spell.

No, she didn't. I just checked to be sure. I think you are thinking of Gorgorma. 

[Ali the Helering]

What can certainly be referenced is Storm Tribe p203 or Sartar Companion p250. 

"After death, worshippers become agents of revenge sent by the goddess to earth to answer the curses of women wronged by men." 

I think that will include victims of rape. 

[Glorion]

43 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Guide to Glorantha. Like Mallia, it may be possible to worship Ikadz in a non-Chaotic manner, but the association is certainly there

No, she didn't. I just checked to be sure. I think you are thinking of Gorgorma. 

Ah, got it. I was thinking of Gorgorma, who is definitely an anti-rape deity. Basically all antichaotic deities are antirape, some more than others. Yes, checked GoG myself, Ikadz is now a chaotic deity, which is a change from the past which I'm in favor of. Does make it easier to keep players from wanting to torture prisoners, doesn't it?

[Glorion]

And be it noted that Ompalam, the god of slavery, is chaotic too. Cool!

[Jeff]

Ikadz is usually associated with Chaos. The Agony spell is associated with the runes of Death and Chaos,

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Agony spell is associated with the runes of Death and Chaos,

Does a spell become chaotic just from having Chaos as one of the runes, or only when cast with that rune?

Edited February 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Does a spell become chaotic just from having Chaos as one of the runes, or only when cast with that rune?

I think if a deity provides a spell that can be cast with Chaos or Death, but the deity does not have the Chaos rune, then casting the spell is not chaotic. Mee Vorala, if I recall correctly, has a disease spell that has the runes Darkness and Chaos, so Malia initiates would use Chaos and it would be a chaotic act, Mee Voralans would use Darkness and it would not be a chaotic act. To call it "the same spell" is really a game system simplification.

[Joerg]

There is a range of entities who are Chaos-adjacent and often get lumped into the Chaos pantheon.

Take Basko for instance. Yes, there was a set-piece battle between an army involving dark trolls (and presumably cave trolls) facing an early chaos horde coming from the northern intrusion under Tien, and the trolls celebrate that as one of their wins against Chaos.

Still, all the Ignorance stuff is strongly Chaos-adjacent. And while Zorak Zoran hates Chaos deities and Chaos cultists, he also hates Earth cultists (especially of the Aldryami variety), Fire- and Light cultists, dwarves and other sorcerers, and he has a strong rivalry with Storm and other Darkness deities (other than the Hellmother and Subere, e.g. Inora). A ZZ worshiping cave troll (of unusual intelligence) could be a great Chaos fighter. So can a Telmori. An ogre could be a renowned hunter of Chaos creatures, and might even carry a Chaos disfigurement to fool other Chaos fighters about his true species.

Yelm did fight Jokbazi at his usurpation of Emperorhood in the Golden Age, an entity that like the Predark foes of Umath and presumably Krarsht (as ancient enemy of Lodril) entered the Universe before the Unholy Trio brought in the Devil. Yet Yelm Emperor as manifested by Takenegi or Tatius the Bright is chaotic in nature, sometimes obviously so, but also Illuminated.

I am fairly convinced that the less obviously chaotic deities listed in the Chaos pantheon may be worshiped in a non-chaotic way. Malia, Ikadz, Nontraya, Gark may all be worshiped as part of a Darkness and (warped) Death cult.

Illuminated religions (Yelm, Red Lunar cults, some Blue Lunar cults, Imarja, Arkat, Talor, draconic enlightenment, Eastern enlightenment, Arachne Solara) are Chaos-adjacent. Ompalam and the other Fonritian manifestations of slavery may fall into this category, too. Zzaburism and Vadeli magics are Chaos-adjacent, as is Tapping the fabric of the Universe (creating weaknesses in Creation through which Chaos may seep in).

Orlanthi and Praxians actively worship Chaos in their major rites, summoning it as their enemy. One of the manifestations of Storm Bull, the Eternal Battle, has the deity inseparatably interwoven with Chaos. Illuminates may recognize this inherent Chaos worship.

 

Other deities are Chaos-neutral or tolerant. Humakt certainly is. Chalana Arroy has no taboo against harming Chaos, but neither do her worshipers have the obligation to do so. The Lightbringers' summons complains about Chaos stalking its world, but the objective of the Lightbringers' Quest is not to fight Chaos, but to repair Creation. There is nothing in that quest that prevents Chaotic individuals from participating. 

[spoilers]

Encountering the Maggot in Snake Pipe Hollow can taint a heroic party of Liightbringers and friends irrevocably with Chaos. So may involuntary contact with the ichor from Larnste's wound in the Footprint. The Devil's Marsh near the Block is fairly unique as a Chaos nest which doesn't bring involuntary infection.

[/spoilers]

 

That said, I want to repeat that reducing Glorantha gaming to fighting Chaos is an awful waste of the plentiful opportunity the setting offers, even if you have a strong Storm Bull contingent in your party. Having a Humakti in your party doesn't mean that you have to roll for attacks in every session, either.