Human sacrifice and other dark rituals in Orlanthi culture

[Eff]

38 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Is it though? Kinda seems like trade is going to go the way of the dodo once the veritable apocalypse starts. At least for a while.

Well, the Hero Wars will kill it off, but just look at the power of Sartar and Nochet, grown on trade. Look at the rise of guilds. Etyries and Issaries whisper a way forward in our ears, one where we can have it all... but alas, you've still gotta bow to the old ways for now. You've still gotta pamper the wannabe Spikes, the upthrust pricks on the thrones. And it turns out that these upthrust pricks can do a lot of damage indeed. 

(Leaving aside that a world where there's a Ministress of Commerce, the Red Dancer of Power gone rampant, in place of good old TakenEgi, is probably not an especially good one to live in either...)

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/20/2021 at 12:52 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

Nice thought, but I am sure the house was rigged.

I think modern research suggest that most fights weren't, 'To The Death!!!'. Gladiators were expensive things, expensive to buy, expensive to train and keep. Throwing that kind of money away frequently would quickly make it a really bad investment. The point was to make money, not to throw it at the crowd saying, 'Here, have this for S&G!'

 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 2/13/2020 at 8:32 AM, UristMcTurtle said:

As a side note, i really, really like the presence of this kind of stuff, and hope that Gods of Glorantha can give us more detail about it. Maybe is a bit unconventional or dark, but honestly, this really reaffirm the bronze age feel around the Orlanthi.

Off screen and not in your face, yes.

Hope. 'Dry as a funeral drum.' So, no.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/22/2021 at 1:52 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Another method of great historicity is to convince the slaves that they don't deserve any better, that they are fulfilling the role destiny holds for them.  By being the best slave they can be they might be rewarded a) in heaven or b) in their next incarnation.

Where has this happened in history?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:04 PM, Darius West said:

 as in our world in ancient times, save that Glorantha is far more restrained than we Earthlings ever were. The sky and air gods don't perform human sacrifice.

Tell Meso and South America that! But seriously, GRoY and Enk hint at human sacrifice in Solar worship in the past and Shargash likes a taste.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:12 PM, Ali the Helering said:

 Of course there were, and are, atheists who will argue themselves blue in the face of any evidence for the divine.

I think very few in Glorantha argue there are no gods, the argument is whether we should worship them or not, or try to overthrow them etc.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Where has this happened in history?

European serfdom, for a start, and similar practices in East Asia.

You'll receive this week's Delecti Award for thread necromancy. 😄

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Where has this happened in history?

I am hesitant as to whether this is a serious question or not, since cases abound!

Slavery in the United States and the colonies that proceeded it?  Some of the more oppressive Hindu and Buddhist states?  How long a list do you actually want?

4 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

I think very few in Glorantha argue there are no gods, the argument is whether we should worship them or not, or try to overthrow them etc.

 I see no reason to believe that Gloranthans are more simplistic than RW humans.  If the majority of our ancestors can see that there are obviously deities, but a significant minority disagree, why not Gloranthans?  In the Bronze and Iron Ages the vast majority would tell you that the gods were totally evident.  Atheism was sufficiently strong that it was spoken against in Psalm 14 "The fool says in his heart 'There is no god'".  

[mfbrandi]

19 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I see no reason to believe that Gloranthans are more simplistic than RW humans.

Quite! If one mixes up religious conversion with science, one will get pseudoscience and may end up turning Glorantha into an Erich von Däniken theme park. No one wants that, right?

Edited February 5 by mfbrandi

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 2/4/2024 at 6:31 PM, Ali the Helering said:

 I see no reason to believe that Gloranthans are more simplistic than RW humans.  If the majority of our ancestors can see that there are obviously deities, but a significant minority disagree, why not Gloranthans?  In the Bronze and Iron Ages the vast majority would tell you that the gods were totally evident.  Atheism was sufficiently strong that it was spoken against in Psalm 14 "The fool says in his heart 'There is no god'".  

It's not about simplistic, it's about actual proof.

If you say, 'I don't believe in your storm god!' And I lightning bolt you a couple of times, it's going to give you serious pause for thought.

Even the purest of Malioni believe in Gods, they just think they are jumped up spirits and we shouldn't be boosting their egos.

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Even the purest of Malioni believe in Gods, they just think they are jumped up spirits and we shouldn't be boosting their egos.

Much like the first commandment delivered by Moses clearly acknowledges the existence other gods than JHV. The chosen people just aren't supposed to worship them side by side with JHV. Whether they may be worshipped as subservient to JHV is not explicitely stated - that there was a female goddess also receiving worship in Salomo's Temple (and other temples) until the reign of Hosiah, if I remember the Kings correctly.

The difference to Malkioni is that there were animal sacrifices in Salomo's temple and the Second Temple.

The Invisible God stands outside of the hierarchy of the Gloranthan deities, whether original runic entities or their heirs after the Compromise, or the High Gods of the Celestial (or Gloranthan) Court before them.

There are a few Malkioni-exclusive entities that are part of the hierarchy - Malkion the Founder as a Burta descendant of Storm and Sea Srvuali (or as the original owner of the Man Rune?), or his grandson Yingar the Messenger, both also ascended entities, and Zzabur, whose writings claim him to be one of the Maseren (original rune owners), too.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

the first commandment delivered by Moses clearly acknowledges the existence other gods

• Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  — Exodus 20

To avoid trouble with the old four-lettered one would it be enough that the god I “held before them” was not real (e.g. was a fictional character like Minnie Mouse)? I rather suspect it wouldn’t be. Holding a nothing before YHWH might be even cheekier. I am not sure that there is a serious ontological commitment in commandment #1. It is how Moses’ people carry on that is the issue, right?

(I am not questioning polytheism in the old times Holy Land, however.)

[Ynneadwraith]

On 5/20/2021 at 1:05 AM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Personally I always thought that while gladiatorial games were unsavory, it wasn't actually human sacrifice. In that, in a sacrifice, a person was chosen and that person died no matter what. One had at least a chance of surviving in a gladiatorial fight. 

The Romans had a weird attitude towards human sacrifice (in the best spirit of 'of course when we do it's different'). Broadly they were strongly against human sacrifice. During the polytheistic phase they were avid syncretisers and absorbers of other cultures' gods and cults. The exception was if there was human sacrifice involved, in which case worship was stamped out as much as they could (e.g. gallic druids). It doesn't seem to be some moral compunction against it, moreover that they thought human sacrifices were too powerful to be used.

Now hold that up against things like gladiatorial games. Or even better, Triumphal parades (dedicated to their god of victory), where at the climax a captured enemy leader was ritually strangled. Now if that isn't a human sacrifice it's pressing it's face right up against it.

[Ynneadwraith]

On 5/22/2021 at 10:35 AM, Leingod said:

 Essentially, the Grazers continue to claim the vendref as slaves, and the vendref don't dispute that, but they're more like a separate caste than anything these days

That's how I see it. It's a historical fiction maintained by a ruling class who still think they're in a now-extinct social structure.

How stable that social structure is, or what it might evolve into is an interesting question.

What's odd about it is it usually happens the other way around (a ruling people pretend that a subordinated people are actually equals). That's one of the things that makes it feel unstable. Eventually the slight will rub the wrong way at the right moment (for the vendref) and something big and bloody will happen. Either that or they'll gradually forge themselves into a true class structure (like the Anglo-Saxons and the invading Normans), and the meaning of 'vendref' will shift away from being synonymous with 'thrall' and start to mean something like 'commoner' instead.

[Ali the Helering]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:54 PM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

It's not about simplistic, it's about actual proof.

If you say, 'I don't believe in your storm god!' And I lightning bolt you a couple of times, it's going to give you serious pause for thought.

Even the purest of Malioni believe in Gods, they just think they are jumped up spirits and we shouldn't be boosting their egos.

 

That is my point.  The fact that you get hit with two lightning bolts in the RW is both wildly improbable and a very poor case for turning to the deity of your choice.  It is the sign of a simplistic and weak mind.

That the psalm says "The fool says" doesn't mean it is correct and that the atheist is a fool.  It only means that the psalmist is opinionated.

In the United Kingdom, during the past 30 years, 58 people have died from lightning strikes, averaging about two deaths per year. Additionally, around 30 people are injured annually, according to the National Geographic.  As a Minister of religion (Rev Ali the Helering) I have to tell you that I have never come across anyone who has converted after being hit by 'fire from on high'.

The most recorded strikes on a single human is 7.  I assume the local places of worship have installed revolving doors.

[Ali the Helering]

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Much like the first commandment delivered by Moses clearly acknowledges the existence other gods than JHV. The chosen people just aren't supposed to worship them side by side with JHV. Whether they may be worshipped as subservient to JHV is not explicitely stated - that there was a female goddess also receiving worship in Salomo's Temple (and other temples) until the reign of Hosiah, if I remember the Kings correctly.

 

You do indeed remember correctly Joerg.  

2 Kings 18, King Hezekiah broke up Nehushtan (A bronze snake allegedly made by Moses) since it was receiving propitiatory worship to ward off snake bite.

In Josiah's reform in 2 Kings 23, the Jerusalem Temple had altars to 'all the starry hosts', altars 'on the roof(?), the chariots and horses of the Sun (Shamash) and worship implements for Ba'al (Zaphan or Hadad probably but not certainly) and Asherah taken out and destroyed.  These were as nothing compared to the 'cleansings' elsewhere.

There is one other very important thing to remember about Asherah.

 

The text accompanying these bovine-human mixes is "YHWH and his Asherah".  For much of the Late Bronze and Early Iron (at least), YHWH was married.  Amongst other things, Josiah is enacting a divine divorce.

As for WTF that calf thinks it is doing at bottom left 'coz it sure as heck ain't feeding from an udder...🤣

[Ali the Helering]

 

3 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

The Romans had a weird attitude towards human sacrifice (in the best spirit of 'of course when we do it's different'). Broadly they were strongly against human sacrifice. During the polytheistic phase they were avid syncretisers and absorbers of other cultures' gods and cults. The exception was if there was human sacrifice involved, in which case worship was stamped out as much as they could (e.g. gallic druids). It doesn't seem to be some moral compunction against it, moreover that they thought human sacrifices were too powerful to be used.

Now hold that up against things like gladiatorial games. Or even better, Triumphal parades (dedicated to their god of victory), where at the climax a captured enemy leader was ritually strangled. Now if that isn't a human sacrifice it's pressing it's face right up against it.

The earliest Roman gladiatorial combats (it is generally, but not unanimously believed) were sacrifices to the spirit of the departed performed at their funeral.  It became something rather different over the next few centuries, but I see no reason to assume it lost that sacred element.

The only place I would disagree with you is limiting syncretism to polytheism.  Christians have always been eager syncretisers.

[Ynneadwraith]

20 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

The only place I would disagree with you is limiting syncretism to polytheism.  Christians have always been eager syncretisers.

Oh absolutely. There's a lot of suspiciously familiar saints knocking around 😉

I only mentioned their polytheistic phase as that's what I know more about (and seems a bit of a better fit for Glorantha, Irensavalists be damned 😉).