Disadvantages of this opposed skill roll mechanic

[Vorax Transtellaris]

I'd like people to point out to me any drawbacks or disadvantages there could be to using the following rules for opposed skill rolls:

In a contest, wouldn't it be possible to just compare the players' (skill level - roll result)? The player who succeeds by the highest number wins the contest. On a tie, the player with the highest skill level wins.

[soltakss]

You should really take into account the level of success as well.

So, a critical should always beat a special which always beats a normal success which always beats a failure which always beats a fumble which sucks.

Apart from that, the method is fine. It's what I use for opposed contests. It's simple, quick and easy.

Now, all we need to do is wait for the 5 page deluge of comments attacking/supporting Opposed Contests that is bound to follow.

[rust]

Now, all we need to do is wait for the 5 page deluge of comments attacking/supporting Opposed Contests that is bound to follow.

No need to wait, you can have it all right now ...

http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/1302-so-how-do-you-handle-contest-skills.html

[Vorax Transtellaris]

I didn't want to start another thread discussing the Opposed Skill rolls mechanic as in the BRP rulebook. I am aware of the official rules and understand them. I just wanted to see if anyone had anything to say about this 'mechanic'.

What I hoped to get was some useful commentary on the differences between comparing (skill - roll result) and comparing level of success.

[frogspawner]

It's a bit fiddly. If you're really ignoring Degrees Of Success (special, critical etc), then why not just say the higher roll - that's equal to or under the skill - wins?

Also, there'd be no way to get better-than-normal results. So things'd be a bit 'samey'.

Related to that, would you still have fumbles? If so, it seems unfair you could do worse than normal, but never better. If not - shame on you! Fumbles are Fun!

[Vorax Transtellaris]

You either succeed or you don't. The bigger the difference between your roll result and your skill level, the better you perform.

Highest roll equal to or under your skill level just feels weird.

[frogspawner]

Highest roll equal to or under your skill level just feels weird.

Yes, I actually agree with you on that. And the "feel" is very important, imho.

(Thought I'd mention the possibility, though, since you might have thought the 'feel' of having to do subtraction was weirder.)

You either succeed or you don't. The bigger the difference between your roll result and your skill level, the better you perform.

Now that's contradictory. Can you please clarify: Are you proposing an On/Off Success/Fail system, or one with some form of Criticals/Specials/Fumbles? How "better"?

[Mechashef]

Two issues:

One, as already mentioned, Criticals should beat specials, which should beat normal successes. Related to this I like the possibility of getting specials or better, which your suggestion seems to preculde.

Two, many people don't like doing the maths.

Your Skill is 72, and you roll a 47. How much did you succeed by?

I don't have any problems with maths, and I'm sure you don't either, but a lot of people I've gamed with other the years do have a problem with it.

I don't mean that they can't do it, just that they don't like doing it.

Of course some people reply that the math is easy and we are just dumbing down the game. Of course we aren't, because adding the rule actually adds to the maths burden, and the game is supposed to be fun.

[vagabond]

My beef -

You have a skill of 45, your opponent a 95. You roll an 01 and have a

difference of 44. Your opponent rolls a 50, a difference of 45. In your

method, the roll of 50 beats the roll of 01. It ignores levels of success

that BRP fans are used to, where a roll of 01 is either an Impale or a

Critical, and pretty much beats every possible roll.

-V

[Vorax Transtellaris]

Yes. But what exactly would be the problem of doing that.

And as for the maths: you usually don't have to calculate the exact difference to know who won, you only have to estimate which of the differences is bigger, which usually is not very hard to do.

[Al.]

Advantages:

its as good as any other proposed

it has an internal logical consistency (which the blackjack method does not)

Disadvantages:

you lose criticals and specials

it requires subtraction, some people don't like subtraction*

it requires mathematics, some people don't like mathematics*

it is yet another possible houserule coming not so long after the great white hope that is the BRP tome which some (me included) had hoped would give us a soild foundation and remove need (or 'need') for yet more houserules

Al

* now we could have a debate on 'youth of today', suffering for our art, its not that hard and a dozen other valid points but IMMOO RPGs are fun not exercises in self improvement and author has asked for possible disadvantages

[frogspawner]

...the BRP tome which some (me included) had hoped would give us a soild foundation and remove need (or 'need') for yet more houserules

Grind that hope out of yourself, Al - that ain't never gonna happen. (PS: 'soild foundation' didn't annoy me at all. Very apt in the context of Opposed-Roll-Only combat. Thanks for that one!)

The mathematics and subtraction are the same, aren't they? And Vorax has already said he's ok with that.

But that still leaves unanswered...

Disadvantages:

you lose criticals and specials (and fumbles?)

Edited June 9, 2009 by frogspawner
PS

[Al.]

Grind that hope out of yourself, Al - that ain't never gonna happen.

Are you suggesting that I'm deluding myself

The mathematics and subtraction are the same, aren't they?

In this case yes the subtraction is indeed a subset of the mathematics.

The point I was trying (and failing) to make was

if mathematics are involved some people are scared and run away

for others mathematics fine but not subtraction (i.e. quite happy to add 2 two digit numbers but not subtract)

Al

[Vorax Transtellaris]

I just found out that this mechanic is actually mentioned as an optional method in the BRP rulebook. And it, too, mentions the mathematics part as the major disadvantage of this method. A calculator or person who can do fast subtractions deals with this disadvantage quite effectively.

Apart from that, the method is quick and intuitively clear.

I don't really see the need of using levels of success. In Call of Cthulhu an impale is a special success on certain combat skills (pointed hand-to-hand weapons and firearms), causing the weapon to inflict damage twice. There's no other use of levels of success and therefore no shifting of levels of success and attack-parry-dodge combat matrix slowing down and complicating things.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Vorax Transtellaris

[soltakss]

There are several reasons to use Levels of Success.

1. It gives the underdog a chance. If somebody has 10% skill and somebody else has 110% skill then the first character can only succeed by 10 but the second character can never succeed by less than 10, so should always win. With Levels of Success the first character can Special on 02 and Critical on 01 and so can defeat the second character if the second character succeeds/fails/fumbles. Don't forget that Dail is a level of success as well, so if you say that a success beats a failure then you are using Levels of Succes.

2. It rewards skill. In the above example, the person with 110% will special on 22% and critical on 5% and, on average, will have a higher chance of making a special or critical than a lesser-skilled character, so would have a higher chance of automatically succeeding.

But, the other method is fine if you want quick and dirty results.

[Vorax Transtellaris]

I guess in CoC quick and dirty results are appropriate. Skill levels don't get higher than 99% in CoC.

[Rurik]

The biggest reason I can think of to use levels of success is that they add excitement to the game. Players LOVE when they roll a critical, and live in fear of their opponents doing the same. They make the game more fun.

[Mechashef]

You will probably find that most of the people who came to BRP via RuneQuest may consider the idea of not having specials to be heretical!

The different flavours of the BRP system seem to have their own emphasis. RQ is probably the most complex of the family and its players seem to like things like criticals, specials and fumbles.

CoC (for example) is often more about the story and many people who came to BRP via it aren't excited about special results.

[Hervé]

The "Blackjack" method is probably the easiest one, as it relies on direct dice reading, without the need of D20 style maths.

The only problem with this method is that it goes completely against the general rules which state the lower you roll, the better you success, making thus this mechanic a bit out of place in BRP. The "margin of success" method fit better in the game game engine but asks for these dreaded calculations...

While we're into maths, what about dividing skills by 5 and using the Resistance Table? Pretty awkward, but probably more "in the mood" of the game...

[Vorax Transtellaris]

Uh oh, this seems to be turning into the next opposed skill roll mechanic discussion...

Oh well. The problem with the resistance table is that it doesn't allow for contests of attributes or skills between more than two people. I have never actually used the resistance table yet, but would probably only use it for contests between one character and, for example, an object or a poison or something. In case of characters in a contest of attributes I prefer to use the same mechanic that I use for skill contests, using (attribute x appropriate modifier) instead of a skill.