Giants vs. Dragons

[davecake]

As for Darius contending that most Illuminates are Lunar munchkins - 

- of course, many inhabitants of the Empire aren't Lunar by religion, and of those that are, most aspire to Illumination but do not attain it. 

- the Lunars totally understand the idea of Occlusion, and take it seriously. For the majority of Lunar Illuminates, joining Lunar religions (or certain related religions, such as Yelm) and expanding magical powers is welcomed, along with the exploring the secret powers of the Red Goddess, including maybe Chaos. This may well make them munchkins by Darius' definition. It just makes them magically adept and spiritually learned by the Lunar definition. The Lunar hierarchy looks at you very funny if you start joining cults that are hostile to the Lunar way, including most Chaos cults. Of course it does happen, but for it to happen openly is generally taken as the favour of the Empire, or if not may result in a visit from the Examiners. 

- there are plenty of Illuminates within the Empire who became Illuminated by means other than the Sevening rituals. The Sevening rituals are Lunar only, and somewhat terrifying, with a known risk of overt insanity and mental damage (in RQ game terms, may involve Madness), albeit with some divine protection from the worst of it. There are other schools in the Empire (including the most orthodox Nysaloran schools) that take a more patient, but more self-reliant, route that may never attain Illumination, or may take many years - and are suitable for non-Lunars, such as Solar worshippers. They are also less likely to be taught the more munchkinish powers of an Illuminate immediately, and may take years of further study. Eg a new non-Lunar Nysaloran Illuminate may not have the ability to ignore cult restrictions, and may have to study further to gain it - and though no one can tell if they are Chaotic, they generally aren't a member of a Chaos cult and non-Lunar Chaos cults are secretive and mistrusted within the Empire too. 

[metcalph]

On the subject of the llumination of the God Learners, there is this passage from Hero Wars; Glorantha which in itself is a revised version of a passage in Dorastor: Land of Doom.

Quote

Most common in Peloria, Illumination
is known throughout Glorantha, most notably in
Kralorela, but also East Isles, Ralios, Jrustela, and
Vralos.

HeroQuest Glorantha p203

Peloria, Kralorela and the Eastern Isles are well-known.

Ralios is Arkat and Vralos is the Cult of Silence. 

So what's in Jrustela?

That said, HeroQuest: Glorantha is using Illumination in the widest sense of acquisition of the Infinity Rune (which also captures Draconic Wisdom) rather than the more narrow sense of a mystical awareness that is derived from the teachings of Nysalor. 

How the God Learners were illuminated or how the current practice of Illumination in Jrustela is practiced is really a subject for another post.  Personally I think the Illuminated God Learners weren't aware they were illuminated.    They just had magic by which they could do the impossible, like make the water burn and because of this, they earned the epithet of "most learned and least wise"

[davecake]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Vralos is the Cult of Silence. 

An interesting question is where did the Cult of Silence come from - did its mystic practices descend from something earlier? (perhaps traumatised God Learners wanting to continue mystic practices but avoid anything otherwise even vaguely reminescent of God learning?) 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

So what's in Jrustela?

A good question - as all human civilisation in Jrustela was wiped out, and I doubt the 'Illuminates' in Jrustela refers to the Elder races or Vadeli. So presumably they are reviving old God Learner secrets?

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

How the God Learners were illuminated or how the current practice of Illumination in Jrustela is practiced is really a subject for another post.  Personally I think the Illuminated God Learners weren't aware they were illuminated. 

Any contact with any underlying set of mystic lore was or deeper understanding seems absent, or at least something that happened only long after they already had established practices. I think they conceptualised it as something like a moment of unity with the mind of Malkion or something similar, and gave very little thought to any moral or deeper repercussions.  Some of them must have recognised that it was something like draconic practices or Eastern enlightenment, but recognition of this, and certainly acceptance that it was the same, travelled back only slowly to the centre of Empire, and was little accepted. 

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

An interesting question is where did the Cult of Silence come from - did its mystic practices descend from something earlier? (perhaps traumatised God Learners wanting to continue mystic practices but avoid anything otherwise even vaguely reminescent of God learning?) 

I have seen two different answers.  One is from Gods of Glorantha and speaks of many races joined to "protest their existence" (Cults Book p12).  The only real other evidence for non-humans joining the cut of silence is the practice of the Feofaxia elves in Maslo (Guide p546).

The other is an unpublished idea which may or may not be true.  It had something to do with the Knowledge Assassins taking a vow of silence to prevent dissemination of the Forbidden Secret.  Some time later, humans not knowing the cause of the practice though them to be holy men and copied their silence.

1 minute ago, davecake said:

A good question - as all human civilisation in Jrustela was wiped out, and I doubt the 'Illuminates' in Jrustela refers to the Elder races or Vadeli. So presumably they are reviving old God Learner secrets?

I assume they dig up and attune God Learner artifacts or read fragments of the pages of now-forbidden verses of the Abiding Book.  It's not just humans that have been studying this lore, the Vadeli, the Malasp and the Big Three have "God Learners" among their ranks.  Judging from the experience of Argrath in the Guide (Sunken Temples p502), the Jrustelans  are close to or have discovered the secret of practical God-Learning and will definitely know it after Harrek's visit.

   

 

[davecake]

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The other is an unpublished idea which may or may not be true.  It had something to do with the Knowledge Assassins taking a vow of silence to prevent dissemination of the Forbidden Secret.  Some time later, humans not knowing the cause of the practice though them to be holy men and copied their silence.

Whether it is true or not, that is cool enough an idea that there must be people who believe it. 

23 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I assume they dig up and attune God Learner artifacts or read fragments of the pages of now-forbidden verses of the Abiding Book.

Or copies of Malkioneranist grimoires like The Unencumbered Lights of Reason/Demon Genealogies or Five New Ways? The Malkioneranists may have even learnt to (partially?) replicate something like the magic book that started it all, Impossible Landscapes, and provide access to places on the heroplane know to the god learners. 

The now-forbidden parts of the Abiding Book are more likely forbidden due to being full of all the messy pre-Godlearner Malkionism - Zzaburism, anti-Zzaburism, Hrestolism, Herotheism,  Waertagi and proto-Vadeli  myth, etc. 

33 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's not just humans that have been studying this lore, the Vadeli, the Malasp and the Big Three have "God Learners" among their ranks. 

I guess there is no reason why not. Though it sounds unlikely to be a major element for some. 

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Judging from the experience of Argrath in the Guide (Sunken Temples p502), the Jrustelans  are close to or have discovered the secret of practical God-Learning and will definitely know it after Harrek's visit.

Sounds likely, yes. 

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

But Illumination is much more than post-modernism. Post-modernism is a critique of modernism. Illumination reveals the flaws of the pure sorcerous worldview that is the foundation of Makanism for sure, but mysticism is also a living tradition of ancient knowledge that has its own insights and its own powers. It's intended not just to show the flaws in other systems of thought, but to show a deeper, more profound, truth.

Yes, agree - much of Illumination is telling you that what you thought was the truth is just stories that you chose to believe in. But it also offers - at least purportedly - access to more absolute truths that are not achievable by mere rationalistic means. (This is another reason I'm wary of Illuminated God-Learners, at least in their mainstream - their entire shtick is about what can be rationally achieved.)

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, davecake said:

I disagree and I think this is objectively wrong on the God Learners. The rest of Darius' ramblings are merely the benighted confusion of the un-Illuminated, one who can see facts but lacks true understanding of mystic truth. As a non-mystic, how could he be expected to understand the difference between true Illumination and Occlusion? 

Absolutely not.  The God Learners knew the secrets of Hero Questing from Arkat, and they learned illumination from the same source, and abused it furiously in much the same way Arkat did.  God Learners were the ultimate Gloranthan munchkins, and illumination has always been the ultimate munchkin license to riot.  I mean seriously, you cannot be detected except by people who are also guilty, you can join any cult, and you never get spirits of retribution.  The dark side of illumination virtually defines the Hwarosian mysteries.  You may not like the fact, and somehow think that the Lunar embrace of illumination is a pure form of mysticism, but at its heart it is just the same sleazy chaotic lie the god learners fell for.  Argarath is also abusing it in much the same way, and so will his followers.  It is this same infectious and mad grab for power that is fueling the hero wars. 

You will find the info in the Stafford Library in the Middle Sea Empire and in Arcane Law.  The early Jrustelans made war on the Arkati and stole their secrets.  Do you seriously think they only stole the secrets of Hero Questing?  They already had those.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Darius West

[davecake]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

Absolutely not.  The God Learners knew the secrets of Hero Questing from Arkat, and they learned illumination from the same source, and abused it furiously in much the same way Arkat did. 

It is true that the God Learners could have learnt those things from Arkat, but that does not mean that they did, or that the God Learners were all Illuminated. There is very little evidence that there were, only that they could have been, if you presume their intention from the start was to cynically adopt all the practices of those they hated. It is pretty clear in the MSE timeline that the God Learners did not begin actively heroquesting into pagan otherworlds until after 780, and then unsucessfully until well into the 800s - so around a century after the last vestiges of Arkatism were wiped out, and by a distinctly different faction of the God Learners

And MSE makes it very clear that the God Learners, as normally understood, were a very intellectually varied group (as you'd expect for a huge empire that existed for centuries), with an evolving position that started as a religiously conservative form of purist Malkionism. 

If you want to make the God Learners a monolithic band of cynical villains, well, YGWV - but its not canon Glorantha. 

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

illumination has always been the ultimate munchkin license to riot.  I mean seriously, you cannot be detected except by people who are also guilty, you can join any cult, and you never get spirits of retribution. 

Yes. But that doesn't mean that is all it is. The majority of Illuminates (and other forms of mystics) believe it has intrinsic spiritual value. That doesn't mean they aren't aware of its other uses. 

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

The dark side of illumination virtually defines the Hwarosian mysteries.

The Hwarosian mysteries (and Hwaros) are not part of canon Glorantha. They originate with Mongoose RQ, and do not appear in any source that is currently canon that I know of. I would not base my understanding on Mongooses flawed understanding. Greg would redirect you back to MSE (as he did when people asked him about Mongoose stuff). 

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

You may not like the fact, and somehow think that the Lunar embrace of illumination is a pure form of mysticism,

It's absolutely not pure in the current day - its the state religion of a giant Empire, corrupted from the spiritual goals of the Goddess to mundane power and maintain itself, and the original concept of the Examiners trying to correct Occlusion has been corrupted from being a way to correct spiritual falseness into a mechanism for enforcing personal loyalty to the Emperor. Many spiritual practices that seem dubious have been introduced after the zero wane, many of which seem awfully convenient for those seeking to exploit Illumination for magical power. But it originated as a project of spiritual liberation by a transcendent goddess made flesh. and that still remains its core for anyone who wants to seek it. 

Its the same old story as ever - when religions become temporal powers, they are debased. But the core remains. The Catholic Church at its most corrupted still contained many who devoutly believed in Christ and his teachings, and so on. 

And Illumination IS liberating. If you were a normal Lodrilite Pelorian prior to the Nysalor project, the religious pantheon that were part of told you, and the majority of the population like you, that you were spiritually impure, and that it was sinful and unjust to seek to have any significant power or authority in society, just keeping digging in the dirt, drudgery even into the afterlife - and the gods literally punished you if you tried to change this. Nysalor didn't just tell you, but made it possible, to jump out of that. In condemning the Dark Side, it is important to remember there is a Light Side - and that is what most followers are primarily engaged with. 

It was definitely Greg's intention that mysticism/Illumination was modelled on real world mystic traditions (at one stage he was very big on Patanjali), and that these were valid. It was also his intention that the ethical temptation that that liberation from conventionally ordained morality brings was very real, and individuals were corrupted by it. He had a good understanding, and personal experience, with both these things. If you want to make it morally empty of value and followed only by cynics, well, YGWV but that wasn't Gregs understanding.

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

Do you seriously think they only stole the secrets of Hero Questing?  They already had those.

They did not have the secrets of creative heroquesting into the myths of others until at least a century later, and that was Arkats big discovery (due to his unique experience). The Arkati tried quite hard to conceal them, and they nearly succeeded. Most of the magicians in Glorantha still do not understand it (the Lunars being a notable exception). They did get some of Arkats heroquesting knowledge early, but I think mostly his knowledge from his Brithini and Hrestoli periods (or at least, only that was readily understandable or accessible to them), most of the rest being regarded as heretical at the time. 

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

Absolutely not.  The God Learners knew the secrets of Hero Questing from Arkat, and they learned illumination from the same source, and abused it furiously in much the same way Arkat did. 

There is a difference, though - Heroquesting is knowable. Illumination is not. Libraries can confer knowledge about the heroquest paths, boundary transitions, and expected and previous unexpected encounters. These quests might even teach mystical insights to those who enter them prepared to perceive these, but you cannot teach enlightenment. The "schools" e.g. of draconic mysticism like the Long Mountain School that Ingolf attended teach preparatory quests and meditations, but they don't teach the insights.

The RuneQuest Sight was a method of abstracting the human perceptions of the world and its magics more than it offered any insight about approaching the Ultimate (again IMO). That makes it different from illumination.

 

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

God Learners were the ultimate Gloranthan munchkins,

I still think that the Vadeli remained ahead of them.

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

and illumination has always been the ultimate munchkin license to riot. 

A true munchkin doesn't need a license.

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

I mean seriously, you cannot be detected except by people who are also guilty, you can join any cult, and you never get spirits of retribution. 

The downside: You have to join those cults, and build up all those external assets. A strong sorcerer or man-of-all would be able to take on these powers and wield them without all that (feigned and inappropriate) subservience.

 

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

The dark side of illumination virtually defines the Hwarosian mysteries. 

Illumination is not "The Force" made up of midichloreans.

Are these mysteries known outside of the Mongoose Second Age books? Middle Sea Empire drew a blank on that name.

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

You may not like the fact, and somehow think that the Lunar embrace of illumination is a pure form of mysticism, but at its heart it is just the same sleazy chaotic lie the god learners fell for. 

The Lunars are all too aware that they are dealing with Chaos. The Zistorite God Learners weren't aware of any Chaos.

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

Argarath is also abusing it in much the same way, and so will his followers.  It is this same infectious and mad grab for power that is fueling the hero wars. 

Except that in Prince of Sartar, Argrath states the inverse as his goal when discussing this with Lionfish, the Argan Argar adventurer. That mission statement pretty much complies to the Arkati ethos rather than the God Learner one. Do everything necessary to save the world, whatever it may be.

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/98-time/

15 hours ago, Darius West said:

You will find the info in the Stafford Library in the Middle Sea Empire and in Arcane Law.  The early Jrustelans made war on the Arkati and stole their secrets.  Do you seriously think they only stole the secrets of Hero Questing?  They already had those.

Hrestol and his followers had the This World Quest figured out. Dawn Age heroquesting as in the Vanak Spear quest or in Morden Defends the Camp may have been alien to them.

Entering Godtime through rituals or portal books ("Impossible Landscapes") was new to them.

(There is a possibility that Impossible Landscapes was a trap from the beginning.)

 

[Akhôrahil]

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Except that in Prince of Sartar, Argrath states the inverse as his goal when discussing this with Lionfish, the Argan Argar adventurer. That mission statement pretty much complies to the Arkati ethos rather than the God Learner one. Do everything necessary to save the world, whatever it may be.

I'm not sure whether it's a tragedy or merely cause for hollow laughter that Argrath seems to genuinely think he's saving the world, when he will instead become one of the major forces ruining it.

His obsession with destroying his enemy at any and every cost is very Arkat-like, though.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm not sure whether it's a tragedy or merely cause for hollow laughter that Argrath seems to genuinely think he's saving the world, when he will instead become one of the major forces ruining it.

If you believe that the gods and the Great Compromise are the reason that the world keeps having "to be saved", then perhaps cutting the world off from the gods, whatever the physical cost, is a good thing.